The US War in Afghanistan

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Dotini

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The other morning I searched the forum for threads with Afghanistan or Taliban in the title, and was unable to find much that was recent or sufficiently relevant. So I created a new thread to document what has long been America's longest war and now is a cascading disaster. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Cascading disaster is an apt term for the US military’s strategy in Afghanistan, which involves the indiscriminate killing of terrorist leaders, whether Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS or whatever else.

In addition to heavily underreported civilian casualties, US military strikes increase the ferocity of those terrorist outfits. Not just because those outfits want to show the world how strong they are. There is another element which arguably is even worse, as it is virtually impossible to reverse. Each “neutralized” leader leaves a power void within his organization and a number of usually younger and more ruthless members start fighting among each other to take over – with cruelty and spectacular attacks obviously being stronger “election” arguments than a “softy” willingness and capacity for peaceful dialogue.

Thus in Afghanistan the original Taliban – the ones who were ousted in 2001 – probably could have been convinced to take part in negotiations. They were an unsavory lot to have as a government, with medieval habits, but they were not terrorists like the ones nowadays. Few people know that in 2000 the British charity Christianaid (yes, with such a provocative name) had an office there, run by a female Australian doctor with her husband and little Sam, their six-month-old son. They enjoyed it very much and the Taliban had no objection against a foreign woman providing medical care to women and children, despite the obvious need for careful diplomacy.

Since then, however, there have been so many cascading series of eliminations of Taliban leaders at all levels – all for the purpose of PR spin rather than any coherent strategy – that we now have the umptiest generation, which has lost whatever dignity and humanity their predecessors may have had.

Furthermore, we knew the original Taliban leaders, and they were relatively predictable. Each new batch needs to be infiltrated, investigated and analyzed from scratch, after which we kill those too. What a waste of energy and knowledge! But President Trump believes that the evident lack of success is caused by too little rather than too much bombing/eliminating, so this vicious cascade can be expected to go on and on until doomsday.

This “destroy the Taliban by assassination” strategy has one more layer: the eroding authority of their original leaders. By continuously eliminating (often after several failed attempts in which civilians are killed instead) successive leaders at all levels – from village to nationwide – the U.S. has shattered the Taliban into different splinter factions, each with its own power structure and power struggles. This has increased pressure and violence at the village level, as people who during the day were already pressured by coalition armies and at night by the Taliban, ended up with several competing “Taliban” factions all pressuring them to join. Some of these factions were foreign, as Afghan friends would tell me, meaning they were from some other part of Afghanistan, not necessarily from a different country, which made it even harder to negotiate with them. Multiple terrorist factions contributed to anarchy in which common criminality has flourished.

At the same time, as this cascading fracturing continued, successive local “terrorist” leaders became increasingly detached from central top leadership and therefore any negotiations with Mullah Omar or any other gray eminence might not translate into concrete changes in the field.

Negotiations should have been conducted in 2002, when the Taliban had been wiped out, which then was no major feat as the vast majority of its followers had been coerced into joining and were only too happy to have been delivered from this burden and being able to return home.

So few true believers were left in 2002 that the Taliban was in a very weak bargaining position, a perfect starting point for negotiations.

Systematic demonizing by the US, however, and the ludicrous strategy of killing them one by one – which is as absurd as believing that the best way to eliminate ants is by crushing them one at a time as they appear at our sugar bowl – have led to what we have now: a thoroughly opaque playing field with regularly shifting alliances and competition, which makes it even harder to keep track of who’s who, with whom, against whom. This increasingly chaotic situation makes counter-terror operations even more complicated (spectacular attacks may have more centralized backing, but smaller attacks are often initiated by local splinter factions).

The addition of ISIS further complicated the situation, as the Taliban have been fiercely fighting them – Afghans generally do not like Arabs nor any other foreigners who want to impose their ways – and thus the absurd situation developed in which everyone is fighting everyone – Taliban, ISIS, Haqqani et al, the Afghan army & police, coalition-supported local militias and coalition armies themselves. A bit like the present proxy-wars in the Middle East in a nutshell.

We also tend to forget that the Taliban – for all their senseless cruelty and often medieval ideas – were welcomed in 1996 with a huge sigh of relief when they cleaned up the murderous chaos of the civil war and restored law and order. When asking Afghan friends what part of their experiences since 1979 was the worst, they all would name the civil war. Unfortunately power corrupts and soon this relief was replaced with a different kind of horror. The Taliban regime was loathed but at least was relatively predictable. One could somehow adapt to its rules.

I am convinced that given a bit more time, the Afghans would have gotten rid of that regime themselves and the ensuing civil war would have been relatively short-lived as then they all were thoroughly fed-up with fighting.

Today, the chaos and corruption in Afghanistan is being hidden further, as the U.S.-led coalition acts to suppress information, specifically the reports of SIGAR, the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. John Sopko, the head of SIGAR, has always been a hero of mine, shining a bright light on the mess that otherwise was swept under the carpet.

Now even that light is being switched off.

William J. Astore is a retired lieutenant colonel (USAF). He taught history for fifteen years at military and civilian schools and blogs at Bracing Views. He can be reached at wastore@pct.edu. Reprinted from Bracing Views with the author’s permission.

https://original.antiwar.com/Pamela/2018/02/02/americas-cascading-disaster-afghanistan/
 
We really should give this government more power! :rolleyes:

If this doesn’t convince you that neither party really cares about the poor, nothing will. We’re all expendable in their eyes.
 
The longest-ever US war, Afghanistan, is now over. All that's left is final evacuation of the embassy and the airport.

The Taliban are rapidly taking control everywhere, city, town and countryside. The future could be one of increased terrorism, but that remains to be seen. All but a few Americans (mainly generals?) seem to be happy to go. China and Russia seem to be strengthening their positions on their borders with the graveyard of empires.
 
Your longest war was all for nothing.
Billions thrown away training an army that buckles in a couple of days.
That money all stays in the economy though. Mostly in the economy of these guys:
 
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This is literally Vietnam part 2.
Not literally because this is Afghanistan, but the similarities are certainly there.

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And Afghanistan will now go back 500 years, as that silly Qur'an interpretation will take over again. Another generation of people being kept dumb as a rock.

Or will China try to take it over this time?

Edit.

Afghanistan also was the beginning of the end of the USSR. Will this be the end of the USSA?
 
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The President of there and his office have abandoned the country. It's offically theirs now IMO.
 
Meh. It seems by all accounts given so far that over the past week that the Taliban is the government that Afghanistan wants to have insofar as the typical person in Afghanistan cares about the national government, and the deposed government was only interested in ruling insofar as they were interested in unlimited grifting of the US; so whatever. I will admit that there's mild amounts of shock that the Afghan government didn't even wait until the US left before essentially surrendering the entire country, but I wasn't even remotely surprised that it ultimately happened. Regardless, though, we should have left before Obama's first term was even done. Bin Laden was dead? Okay, see ya. The end result would have been the same as it is now, or as it would have been in 2031.







So in spite of all of the GOP astroturfing over the weekend Biden will continue getting all of the praise possible for getting the hell out when he said we would; and not seeing the entire Afghan government doing a "Never fired dropped once" and saying "Well guys I guess we need to prop these guys up for twenty more years." Let China put their military through the ringer for a decade dicking around in the area this time.
 
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Meh. It seems by all accounts given so far that over the past week that the Taliban is the government that Afghanistan wants to have insofar as the typical person in Afghanistan cares about the national government, and the deposed government was only interested in ruling insofar as they were interested in unlimited grifting of the US; so whatever. I will admit that there's mild amounts of shock that the Afghan government didn't even wait until the US left before essentially surrendering the entire country, but I wasn't even remotely surprised that it ultimately happened. Regardless, though, we should have left before Obama's first term was even done. Bin Laden was dead? Okay, see ya. The end result would have been the same as it is now, or as it would have been in 2031.







So in spite of all of the GOP astroturfing over the weekend Biden will continue getting all of the praise possible for getting the hell out when he said we would; and not seeing the entire Afghan army doing a "Never fired dropped once" and saying "Well guys I guess we need to prop these guys up for twenty more years." Let China put their military through the ringer for a decade dicking around in the area this time.
IMHO, Vietnam was our misappropriation of French colonialism aggravated by our paranoia of communism. Afghanistan was a successful mission of revenge against specific terrorists which bureaucratically morphed into the GWOT. China has a tiny border with Afghanistan which borders their troubled Muslim Uyghur province. I expect they will do everything possible to keep that border tightly sealed.
 
IMHO, Vietnam was our misappropriation of French colonialism aggravated by our paranoia of communism. Afghanistan was a successful mission of revenge against specific terrorists which bureaucratically morphed into the GWOT. China has a tiny border with Afghanistan which borders their troubled Muslim Uyghur province. I expect they will do everything possible to keep that border tightly sealed.
Only issue might be is if the Taliban starts to spill into Pakistan (they still have a presence there) and begins to hinder the Belt and Road Initiative.
 
Your longest war was all for nothing.
Billions thrown away training an army that buckles in a couple of days.
Two trillion is the number that I hear thrown around. And it's hard to see how spending all that money hasn't been largely pointless.

Years ago I read Khaled Hosseini's book A Thousand Splendid Suns which is a (fictional) account of the transition in Afghanistan from Soviet control to war-lord chaos to Taliban control to post-Taliban rebuilding. Ironically, the US might have done better leaving the Soviets in charge where modernization & women's rights had some traction (although it's pretty certain that it would all have collapsed anyway with the fall of the Soviet Union). A terrible situation for millions of Afghans ... & hard to see how anything positive can come out of all this.
 
The only good thing about this war was that it kept our military men and women and equipment in active rotation for two whole decades. There are some notable militaries in the world that basically have zero experience with any active duty throughout that same period. If there is any good side to our constant nation-building, it's this.
 
Regardless, though, we should have left before Obama's first term was even done. Bin Laden was dead? Okay, see ya. The end result would have been the same as it is now, or as it would have been in 2031.
Pretty much my exact thoughts on this whole thing. Once Bin Laden was killed, any strong reason for the US to remain in Afghanistan went with him imo. I don't really know what the detractors of Biden's promise to evacuate US forces really want at this point (though I can definitely imagine).
 
Some want us to stay, some don't want us to stay but won't miss an opportunity to criticize those they view as the opposition even if it's for something they don't oppose and some want us to stay and are itching to criticize those they view as the opposition.
 
This is probably a bad idea, mostly because I don't know what it entails. But why didn't we just make Afghanistan a US territory? We were justly at war with them, they had no real governmental resistance left (or in the first place), it was certainly viable to be a US territory. So why not just do it?
 
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This is probably a bad idea, mostly because I don't know what it entails. But why didn't we just make Afghanistan a US territory? We were justly at war with them, they had no real governmental resistance left (or in the first place), it was certainly viable to be a US territory. So why not just do it?
Wouldn't that be making the Taliban U.S. citizens?
 
This is probably a bad idea, mostly because I don't know what it entails. But why didn't we just make Afghanistan a US territory? We were justly at war with them, they had no real governmental resistance left (or in the first place), it was certainly viable to be a US territory. So why not just do it?
I doubt Afghanistan would want that. It also would make it laughably easy for Iran/Pakistan to send suicide bombers/one of their terror groups over the border to reek havoc. Also would give us an uncomfortable land border with Pakistan (we know they have nuclear weapons aimed at India), Iran (see above) and China.
 
Afghan government troops are running away to Uzbekistan by the same bridge where the Soviet army was leaving Afghanistan in 1989.
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It's worth noting that after the Soviet withdrawal from 10 years military presence in Afghanistan, the DRA government managed to last 3 more years. This time, everything the US-led coalition had conquered for 20 years is now lost in two months...

Russia is now reinforcing its troops in Tajikistan to aid the local forces if Taliban tries to break in. Uzbekistan is on alert, too.
 
Wouldn't that be making the Taliban U.S. citizens?

Not necessarily. The US has territories that confer citizenship, and territories that don't. Afghanistan could have a unique territorial setup, or a similar one from other territories. But it seems that just about every US territory has its own unique situation, sometimes citizenship is not included for births.

I doubt Afghanistan would want that. It also would make it laughably easy for Iran/Pakistan to send suicide bombers/one of their terror groups over the border to reek havoc. Also would give us an uncomfortable land border with Pakistan (we know they have nuclear weapons aimed at India), Iran (see above) and China.
Well Afghanistan wouldn't necessarily have a choice. This is the nature of going to war with a country. Granted, Afghanistan didn't necessarily declare war on the US in 2001, but the government kinda ended up in that boat anyway due to the actions of people within its borders. Yes, I agree that it would put a territory in an interesting part of the world, but that might not be the worst thing either.

I dunno... it seems like the door was open and all we had to do was walk through. We decided not to, and the Taliban did instead, which maybe was not the best outcome for all involved.
 
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Unverified reports of Taliban freeing ISIS and Al-Qaeda prisoners. How best to prevent these folks from further terrorism? Attack their finances?
 
Unverified reports of Taliban freeing ISIS and Al-Qaeda prisoners. How best to prevent these folks from further terrorism? Attack their finances?
Blow them off the map. ;)
 
Blow them off the map. ;)

They've become rather good at avoiding this over the last 20 years.

Other than revenge for 9/11 directed at a single individual, the whole invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was completely pointless. And really, while the revenge was carried out, it probably ultimately isn't all that useful. We should have sanctioned the **** out of Saudi Arabia and made them pay for 9/11 in a way that was actually useful. But that would have helped Iran who is the enemy of our best buddies.

What I'm getting at is that the blame should go to....

The British!
 
I tend to not watch Meet The Press but I flipped to a rebroadcast of it earlier this morning just in time for a montage of bellyaching over the withdrawal, and something that jumped out at me during it was a Tom Amenta, presented as an "Afghanistan war veteran" (I don't doubt this; it's merely what was shown under his name as he spoke), asking, "Why did we spend the past decade there? What was the purpose? What was the goal?" ... You're asking that now? Pandering drivel.
 
What is happening in Afghanistan right now is unconscionable.

That is not to say that withdrawing per se is wrong, but rather it is the method by which the withdrawal has been conducted which is frankly outrageous.

Trump, and now also Biden, as well as their UK counterparts and many others besides, have conspired to leave their allies and anyone who opposes Taliban rule to their fate. Even embassy staff are struggling to get out.

The Taliban are keen to portray their ultimate military triumph as some kind of peaceful 'transition of power', but to fall for that would be to ignore the terrible fate that undoubtedly awaits anyone who ever opposed them, and to dismiss the threat the Taliban now pose to anyone who had any aspirations of living their lives free of their brand of Islamic extremism.

One could argue that trying to bring Afghanistan into the 21st century was always going to be a lost cause, and the withdrawal of occupying forces was always on the cards, but one would have thought that after almost 20 years and who knows how many trillions of dollars that the US, UK and others might have been able to cobble together an exit strategy that wasn't pure chaos.
 
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