Think positive: why we should be glad GT5 is delayed till spring '10?

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In response to that ^^
@ gives PD time to look at what will make Forza 3 so popular, and consider including elements of it...
Kaz has never played it, some of the PD Crew looked at it once, thats it. We want GT, not Forza.
Although there are some features of Forza that I wouldn't mind seeing in GT5 (rewind is not one of them): Livery editor, tons of online features, online marketplace to buy/sell stuff, skid marks, drag racing, etc.
@ gives PD time to improve the physics, collision physics, A.I. and scenery.
It's 6 months, not 6 years... just focus on damage.
Damage isn't right without the proper physics to go along with it. Anyone can make a car's hood smash when running into a wall, its how the car actually reacts to the wall that makes the difference. The driving physics could also be improved alittle. Scenery should be updated from Prologue (in most video's and screenshots you can see that it has vastly improved). So when you are saying to just focus on damage, you are ignoring alot of other issues that need attention as well.
@ the 6 month time period they have until release is a great amount of time to fully improve, adjust, and tweak [those] issues.
What issues? FOCUS ON DAMAGE!!!
Again, proper collision/driving physics are necessary for visual damage.
 
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In response to that ^^

Although there are some features of Forza that I wouldn't mind seeing in GT5 (rewind is not one of them): Livery editor, tons of online features, online marketplace to buy/sell stuff, skid marks, drag racing, etc.
Damage isn't right without the proper physics to go along with it. Anyone can make a car's hood smash when running into a wall, its how the car actually reacts to the wall that makes the difference. The driving physics could also be improved alittle. Scenery should be updated from Prologue (in most video's and screenshots you can see that it has vastly improved). So when you are saying to just focus on damage, you are ignoring alot of other issues that need attention as well.
Again, proper collision/driving physics are necessary for visual damage.

I meant physical damage aswell. I see damage as a package where visual is 20-30% and physics 70-80%
 
No, I am going to suggest that POSSIBLY (and this is ALL speculation on very little fact as to the why): up until GC PD severely underestimated the demand for damge and didn't want to deal with the licensing issues for what they mistakenly thought was a minor issue.
But that still suggests it would take six months to negotiate what should be, judging by the rest of the industry, a relatively boilerplate contract with the manufacturers, and also that it would take six months despite having worked out agreements with Ferrari and Mercedes in less than one month. They don't need to negotiate with manufacturers consecutively, you know.

It seems far more likely to me that damage was always intended to be for all cars, possibly save for a few stubborn manufacturers, but the damage implementation is simply taking longer than anticipated*. To get back your analogy, rather than being surprised people didn't want to eat raw cordon bleu, Chef Kaz didn't realize they would take 45 minutes to simply prepare, having never made them himself.

*Or not, since we never even had a release window until two weeks ago.

Or possibly KY wanted his top level of damage on all cars and when he coudln't meat the xmas release date Sony wanted (for obvious marketing reasons) drew the line somewhere which is why he mentioned race cars and sets likely in this case even referred to which race cars and maybe some race cars would be left out of damage as well as standard.
Again, with procedural modeling, there's no reason to leave anything out—and in fact, it's more work to leave certain cars out—and licensing simply doesn't take this long to negotiate.

The only distinction between race cars and standard cars is the former can have parts ripped off, necessitating extra 3D modeling, which does take time. That's why only race cars were going to get the "good damage."

Either (any) way, 2 months of working on damage in 5 years of dev seems irresponsibility low.
Again, you seem to be forgetting about code branches.

Yes, the build we saw at TGS represents two months of effort, but that doesn't mean they'd only spent two months working on damage. He specifically said what was shown at TGS was an old build. Sure, it's possible they'd only worked on damage for two months and a day, but it's also possible they'd been working on it for six months or more, but those more advanced builds were still too glitchy for a public showing. In fact, didn't the post-TGS interviewers say they were shown damage that was far more impressive than what we've seen thus far? That alone tells you they've already spent far more than two months work on it.

… heck half way through one I have to open the thread in a nother window just to look back and remember what I was saying!
Sometimes I do that too. :lol:
 

@ you have time to polish or acquire your driving skills so you will be ready to fully enjoy the game.
I think I would enjoy GT5 if it came out today...


Maybe you would, but i wouldn't. I still need time to practice on GT4 and GT5P. And i don't think i'm the only one in the entire world in this situation.
 
I don't quite understand how so many can be happy about another delay.

GT:PSP was delyed so often you forgot about it.

GT delayed until next year means one less PS3 Slim console sold if that's the case and I'm positive I'm not the only one that had planned on purchasing both as I did when GT4 was released.

They are making the release a moving target for a reason and that's okay actually, but at some point your going to stop having to continually polish your good china and actually use it (release the game).
 
Didn't read all the posts but, for me it's Tax Returns Can afford new g27 wheel :)

<--- Tax Return = Debt Reduction

I know, what's the fun in that, but I had planned on buying the PS3 around Christmas and its near enough to actually plan that far ahead. But I've committed to paying off my car an entire year early.

I am buying a PS3 95% for GT5, all the other games can wait because I haven't played or finished their PS2 counterpart. I still play my PS2 quite a bit, I am in no rush to buy a PS3.

Sony would sell a ton more consoles this Christmas, if they release it around March that would be ideal for Tax Return Season I guess, whatever.
 
Get a job. We all can't play GT5 just because you can't save on PS3

What if he has a job? Life can easily out strip your earning power we shouldn't really have to go down that road after what the Bankters have done to the World Economy.

The Slim is already at an affordable level and won't see a price drop anytime soon without another reduction in the cost of making one, so that poster is either being silly and you too serious or he's really out to lunch.
 
What if he has a job? Life can easily out strip your earning power we shouldn't really have to go down that road after what the Bankters have done to the World Economy.

I don't know, I can easily buy like 4-5 PS3 with monthly salary after all taxes and spendings.

It's only 300$ after all. The average US income is how much, 40.000$ per year?
 
It seems far more likely to me that damage was always intended to be for all cars, possibly save for a few stubborn manufacturers, but the damage implementation is simply taking longer than anticipated*. To get back your analogy, rather than being surprised people didn't want to eat raw cordon bleu, Chef Kaz didn't realize they would take 45 minutes to simply prepare, having never made them himself.

*Or not, since we never even had a release window until two weeks ago.

There are a lot of facets I don't claim to have full knowledge of when it comes to the whys including how long it takes, how much it costs, or what the caveats are for licensing.

All I know is that from here https://www.gtplanet.net/yamauchi-clarifies-questions-about-damage/ we get the following:

I can confirm that not every car in Gran Turismo 5 will sport damage models

he mentioned that only &#8220;race cars&#8221; could be damaged in the game.

Assumptions aside, that makes it pretty straight forward for me.

Again, with procedural modeling, there's no reason to leave anything out&#8212;and in fact, it's more work to leave certain cars out&#8212;and licensing simply doesn't take this long to negotiate.

The only distinction between race cars and standard cars is the former can have parts ripped off, necessitating extra 3D modeling, which does take time. That's why only race cars were going to get the "good damage."

Maybe it was going to take so long (and maybe cost more to license) modeling interiors that PD opted for just race cars. And you will notice that in a recent interview KY mentions that the damage model they are working on is brand new which makes me think that perhaps they had a less efficient damage model earlier that would have been more cumbersome to apply to all car.

Another thing to consider is that it's one thing to apply a procedural damage model to all cars, but it might also include specifying on each car where each part actually ataches and how and what it takes to break that connection. ie a car which is not modeled for any damage may not have any connection points build into the model for the body panels, they just go in a certain spot. So the damage engine might be only one step, you might still have to do work on each car after the fact.

So it's quite possible that the models were mostly or all built by the time procedural damage was decided on.

Again, you seem to be forgetting about code branches.
Yes, the build we saw at TGS represents two months of effort, but that doesn't mean they'd only spent two months working on damage. He specifically said what was shown at TGS was an old build. Sure, it's possible they'd only worked on damage for two months and a day, but it's also possible they'd been working on it for six months or more, but those more advanced builds were still too glitchy for a public showing. In fact, didn't the post-TGS interviewers say they were shown damage that was far more impressive than what we've seen thus far? That alone tells you they've already spent far more than two months work on it.

Well it's a trasnlation detail again but I do believe he said 2 months to get damage to where we "are" as in where we are right now...

And if you think about it, if they are going to get a brand new procedural damage engine built in the next 6 months or so, it seems quite plasuable what we saw at TGS was 2 months worth of work.

I don't recall what the ineterviewers said they saw, but whatever it was it could certainly be 2 months worth (unless they saw it significantly after KY's 2 month answer in which case it could certainly be 2 months plus however long after it was that they saw it).
 
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PD will make their trip to SEMA this year and have do the GT Awards for another awesome tuner car.
 
I can confirm that not every car in Gran Turismo 5 will sport damage models
"[Stupid Volvo… refusing to give in…**grumble*]"

he mentioned that only “race cars” could be damaged in the game.
"How extensive will the damage model be, Yamauchi-san?"
"Very extensive. Doors being ripped off… the works."
"Wow! And that applies to all cars??"
"No, just the race cars, actually."

Assumptions aside, that makes it pretty straight forward for me.
Yes, very straightforward. :)

Incidentally, do you (or anyone) have a link to where he actually said that bit about race cars? I've seen plenty of references to the GTP article you linked where it's mentioned, but no reference to the original source.

Maybe it was going to take so long (and maybe cost more to license) modeling interiors that PD opted for just race cars.
In fact, Kaz said that's exactly why the part-removal aspect of damage would only be applied to race cars. Also, the NFS guy speculated they were only able to remove doors because of the presence of roll cages, which would again be a race-car-only feature.

But that doesn't have anything to do with basic deformation, mind. Once they have the procedural model for deformation, it works for all cars.

And you will notice that in a recent interview KY mentions that the damage model they are working on is brand new which makes me think that perhaps they had a less efficient damage model earlier that would have been more cumbersome to apply to all car.
It makes me think they model they're using is brand new in the sense it is unlike any anyone has ever used before, since he also said exactly that. ;)

Another thing to consider is that it's one thing to apply a procedural damage model to all cars, but it might also include specifying on each car where each part actually ataches and how and what it takes to break that connection.
The connections don't break on the standard cars. They're deformation-only.

Well it's a trasnlation detail again but I do believe he said 2 months to get damage to where we "are" as in where we are right now...
Hmm. Now that you mention it, it's hard to say for sure. He did say, "where we are," and that was from the IGN interview, which was one of the first out of TGS, so I assumed it was referring to the TGS build. It wasn't until later that the interviews which told us the TGS build was old came out, so I then assumed these newer builds had more than two months' work put in to them.

While it seems unlikely to me what we saw at TGS could be accomplished in just a few weeks, I'll agree that what we've been told regarding exactly what took two months is a bit ambiguous.
 
Simple.

You can't rush perfection.

I blame god damn Forza. PD is desperate to reach this level which is pretty much impossible in one year.

Add damage, add upgrades with all stock real parts for every model, improve physics, improve AI and etc,etc, etc.

GT is a game on its own, Polyphony should do what they do best
 
Don't doubt the master, what we've seen so far is great and its progressing everyday it's not been a month since TGS and we already have many new developments, still about 5.5 months to go, thats around 3969 hours for them to work their magic.
 
"How extensive will the damage model be, Yamauchi-san?"
"Very extensive. Doors being ripped off&#8230; the works."
"Wow! And that applies to all cars??"
"No, just the race cars, actually."


Yes, very straightforward. :)

So are you saying he is suggesting that procedural damage will only be applied to race cars and not all cars?

And he does say "the" (again translation) and doesn't mention anything about any other kind of damage which is an awfully big omission to make if it was so omitted.

The tone of the interviews and the answers all seem to point to most likely damage was intended only for some cars and those cars were race cars.

I still hold that it's the much less reasonable interperetation to think that the things that he didn't mention are true (ie damage to other cars) just because he didn't deny them than to assume that had they been true, he would have mentioned them. I mean with all this talk up until this point no mention of damage to all cars, then recently damage to all cars is confirmed and is a big deal? That would mean that all the interviewers who were talking to KY originally also didn't detect any meaning that damage would be to all cars as it wouldn't be a surprsie now and there wouldn't be any questions clearing up whether it would be to all cars or no.

I mean you are right that I don't recall KY ever saying "there will be some cars that are absolutely invincible" but do you not think the most reasonable (and it appear most widepsread) understanding is that at this point it was race cars damage, other car none? Wouldn't it be more rasonable for him to have in at least one of the interviews about damage said something like "Yes doors will fall off on race cars but the others will just have normal scratch and dent damage" if it was indeed so? Much like he has done at TGS which happened to be right after GC's ill recieved damage demo and right around the time a surprising 2010 release date came along? I mean it's not absolute rock solid proof, but as far as circumstantial goes it seems an awfully good fit...

In fact, Kaz said that's exactly why the part-removal aspect of damage would only be applied to race cars. Also, the NFS guy speculated they were only able to remove doors because of the presence of roll cages, which would again be a race-car-only feature.

Yes why I think was quite possibly at least part due to extra work rendering internals and also licensing whereby damage like that would be limited to roll cage cars.

But that doesn't have anything to do with basic deformation, mind. Once they have the procedural model for deformation, it works for all cars.

From a technical standpoint, but I suspect you, like I, may not know ALL the facets and possible challenges involved with getting damage approved for all cars.

It makes me think they model they're using is brand new in the sense it is unlike any anyone has ever used before, since he also said exactly that. ;)

That's possible, and I would say on it's own quite possible. But again, in line with everything else, the timeline and KY's previous quotes along with the general press's (who are closer to the source than we are) reports it seems more likely that the damage engine is what they are doing to one up what's out there already and make reverse the bad press they got at GC.

The connections don't break on the standard cars. They're deformation-only.

Good point.

Hmm. Now that you mention it, it's hard to say for sure. He did say, "where we are," and that was from the IGN interview, which was one of the first out of TGS, so I assumed it was referring to the TGS build. It wasn't until later that the interviews which told us the TGS build was old came out, so I then assumed these newer builds had more than two months' work put in to them.

While it seems unlikely to me what we saw at TGS could be accomplished in just a few weeks, I'll agree that what we've been told regarding exactly what took two months is a bit ambiguous.

Everything he has said has been a least a LITTLE ambiguos...
 
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I agree on the school thing, I would fail no question.
I think every GT has been pushed back from its original release date, I doubt it will be released in March as that is the release for Japan. C.all of duty mw2 will hold me just fine.
 
I blame god damn Forza. PD is desperate to reach this level which is pretty much impossible in one year.

Add damage, add upgrades with all stock real parts for every model, improve physics, improve AI and etc,etc, etc.

GT is a game on its own, Polyphony should do what they do best

I think it's very much a response to Forza (as well as the publics response at GC) despite what KY has said about not paying attention to ther games.
 
despite what KY has said about not paying attention to ther games.

Turn 10 got already aware of that. LOL

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=225192

PD is no match to Turn 10 in physics, one guy working on physics algorithms due to credits against the whole team which do math and real life testing for many years already.

And Turn 10 is no match to PD in other areas. There is no hope to make GT5 better than all other games combined. But this attempts will make GT5 better for sure. Prologue already is a huge improvement over GT4 in all areas
 
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Turn 10 got already aware of that. LOL

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=225192

PD is no match to Turn 10 in physics, one guy working on physics algorithms due to credits against the whole team which do math and real life testing for many years already.

kazunoriene32.jpg
 

From creator of Gran Turismo 4!

Seriously dude, GT4 was the worst simulator ever created in the whole history of video games. Every time I've seen "real driving simulator" on the box I laughed half an hour.

Prologue is a great job, I was amazed how everything have changed. Best simulator ever? LFS demo is free, just type in Google "Live for Speed". See for yourself
 
Can a moderator change the thread title?

It's not Spring everywhere in the world at the same time.

This is just another case of Yanks thinking that the USA is the centre of the universe.
 
Can a moderator change the thread title?

It's not Spring everywhere in the world at the same time.

This is just another case of Yanks thinking that the USA is the centre of the universe.

Now that's what I'm talking about. I personally am not disappointed by pushing the date back. Gives me more time to master Chamonix and Cita di Aria :lol: which tick me off big time.
 
Turn 10 got already aware of that. LOL

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=225192

PD is no match to Turn 10 in physics, one guy working on physics algorithms due to credits against the whole team which do math and real life testing for many years already.

And Turn 10 is no match to PD in other areas. There is no hope to make GT5 better than all other games combined. But this attempts will make GT5 better for sure. Prologue already is a huge improvement over GT4 in all areas

Nice FM3 video, looking good. I wish PD would add a hood camera like FM3 (and every other race game out there?!) has. The roof camera in GT doesn't do it for me, way to high, it's like i'm on a bus.
 
The hood camera is the same GT5 Prologue allready has, whats so special about that?
Ohter than that i laughed hard as i read this:

We run our physics at 360Hz," added Greenawalt. "I don't know of any other game that does that. That takes a commitment to physics, not just about making sure you have beautiful graphics

Shift runs its physics at 400 Hz and its not even a sim, so making more calculations does not equal a better physics model. Commitment to physics my *** :sly:

But its getting even better:
"Gran Turismo is a great game and when it comes out I'll play it. But I think that without the partnerships and without the commitment, it will be very difficult for another team to replicate what we've done."
Partnerships? GT4 had more cars and more different manufacturers than Forza 3 and GT5 will have even more. Though GT5 will most likely be missing Porsche, it will feature Ruf, Tesla and the Nissan GTR, a car that Greenwalt could not get his hands on.
Wich other partnerships is he talking about? Like GT5 got Nascar and WRC and Forza 3 doesn't?

And why is he talking about commitment? This comes from a developer that copied Gran Turismo and now Greenwalt thinks he shows more commitment to cars than PD. They have allready been into cars and racinggames for over a decade now!
 
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Can a moderator change the thread title?

It's not Spring everywhere in the world at the same time.

This is just another case of Yanks thinking that the USA is the centre of the universe.

You mean it isn't? :confused:

Seriously, the wait is the same and I would prefer your season of Fall for the release, since with Spring there are generally more infringements on my time than going into Fall and Winter. Not to mention more time off usually during the Holidays.

BTW I don't think its just the Yanks, since its also Spring in Europe and Japan as well as a few other markets.
 
Spring '10 in the northern hemisphere. Autumn '10 in the southern hemisphere (we dont say "fall")
 
And why is he talking about commitment? This comes from a developer that copied Gran Turismo and now Greenwalt thinks he shows more commitment to cars than PD. They have allready been into cars and racinggames for over a decade now!



GT4 new york city track



Forza New york city track

Looks like turn 10 even copied GT4's NYC track, from the u turn at times square and even the roundabout at the top of the track don't know about the other streets though (it could be a short version). I think T10 put chicanes in to stop it looking like a direct rip off, out of ideas much?💡
 
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