Three Arguments About the IRL's First Road Race

[JohnBM01]

GTPlanet, this topic comes your way after watching tonight's edition of "WindTunnel with Dave Despain." Three different arguments were proposed.

In one argument, there was the IRL road racing issue. The issue was about which was more exciting- IRL Road Racing, or NASCAR at Bristol? True to Americana, Mr. Despain stated (not exact quote) "...in one race, we saw the lead actually change place," possibly talking about NASCAR at Bristol. (2) In the second argument, an IRL fan talked about the race at St. Petersburg. Dave Despain thought that street courses aren't "racing." I believe the IRL fan said that road racing was good for the IRL. (3) The third argument, Dave Despain asked someone "do we really NEED another open-wheel road racing series?"

GTPlanet, with the IRL's first road race and after reading these three arguments, what did you make of the IRL's first road race?

 

[JohnBM01]

Here now, are my responses to these arguments.

(1) The better race this weekend is based on what you like in racing. One was history, one was tradition. The IRL raced for the first time in a road race while NASCAR bangs up cars and flares tempers at Bristol. I think the St. Petersburg race had some great moments, but NASCAR had Kevin Harvick go from a horrible position to eventually win. Both races are winners. The IRL road races while after digging a hole for himself early in the race, Harvick comes back to win. This proves that you don't have to "trade paint" every race to win. It's all about control. Race cars are strong, but delicate. Sometimes, a single mistake can mean the end of the race. Whether it's 0.25 miles or 24 hours, the car has to endure. And on top of endurance, the driver must be willing and able to extract as much of the car as possible to win AT ANY COST.

(2) To say that street courses aren't "racing" is actually bull to me. So it's perfectly fine to fit 40 cars on a "short" track (knowing someone's going to crash), but there's no racing when 20 or 30 race cars zoom around a temporary street course? I've even seen bold racing moves on the super-tight streets of Macau, China. If you're a racer, you have to be able to win in almost any situation. Street courses aren't that hard. And since when was passing more important than racing? You're a racer, go win. Just the same crap I hear about Formula One. You have to keep trying. Even Juan Pablo Montoya took the fight to Michael Schumacher in 2003, so the lead can be beaten; you just have to try. If you don't try, you don't win.

(3) Do we really need another open-wheel racing series? Who said the IRL has to compete with Champ Car at its game? The IRL has its heritage with Indy, so don't tell me that the IRL is slowly evolving into a poor man's Champ Car. Having said that, it's nice to see the IRL go in a new direction. I don't think I've seen cases where the IRL was like NASCAR, in which oval racing devotees hired a road racing veteran to help race for them.

If I have more to add, I will do so in the future. But do reply.

 

[a6m5]

GTPlanet, this topic comes your way after watching tonight's edition of "WindTunnel with Dave Despain." Three different arguments were proposed.

In one argument, there was the IRL road racing issue. The issue was about which was more exciting- IRL Road Racing, or NASCAR at Bristol? True to Americana, Mr. Despain stated (not exact quote) "...in one race, we saw the lead actually change place," possibly talking about NASCAR at Bristol. (2) In the second argument, an IRL fan talked about the race at St. Petersburg. Dave Despain thought that street courses aren't "racing." I believe the IRL fan said that road racing was good for the IRL. (3) The third argument, Dave Despain asked someone "do we really NEED another open-wheel road racing series?"

GTPlanet, with the IRL's first road race and after reading these three arguments, what did you make of the IRL's first road race?

1. I hate oval, so I'd pick IRL road race. My idea of good racing is not the "exciting" lead changes on oval. To me, cars going in circle is very boring(I'm sorry!). I like racing to be on a challenging courses, testing the drivers skills to the limit.

2. I don't know this "Dave Despain" person, but I disagree with him also.

3. I'd rather see IRL race on anything other than oval, but I have to agree. As long as we have Champ cars, we don't really need IRL get off oval IMO.

 

[Blake]

Before I get started it should be made clear that I don't like IRL, as a few of you probably know, but I'll try to make my opinion as unbiased as possible.

1. I don't like oval racing, I think it's boring and very dangerous ... at least in IRL. Remember the Champ Car oval race last year in Las Vegas (?), there was not a single crash, nothing, that's how oval racing should be done. I think it's extremely dangerous and stupid to turn ovals into death traps and call it racing. To drive to the limit on a road (or street) course is what racing is about to me, that is what I find exciting.
2. Street circuit racing IS "racing", in fact it's one of my favourite types of racing as there is such a fine margin of error and it really pushes drivers to use all their skills. If you can win a street race, I think as a racer you have proved yourself.
3. I agree, Champ Car and IRL are costing eachother enough money and fans as it is, if IRL went road racing often I think it will lead to the death of one of those series. We only need one American Open Wheel series, we definatly only need one road racing series.

Blake

 

[The359]

I don't like oval racing, I think it's boring and very dangerous ... at least in IRL. Remember the Champ Car oval race last year in Las Vegas (?), there was not a single crash, nothing, that's how oval racing should be done. I think it's extremely dangerous and stupid to turn ovals into death traps and call it racing. To drive to the limit on a road (or street) course is what racing is about to me, that is what I find exciting.

Excuse me? CART's oval racing is safer? Tell that to Greg Moore, or any number of CART drivers who have died in the past decade. Just because CART didn't have any wrecks at Las Vegas does not make them "safer". How about you take a look at the rest of the ovals CART Has run in the past few years. That's some of the most idiotic logic I've ever heard to call the IRL's oval racing less safe then CARTs.

It's also quite idiotic to claim that oval racing is more dangerous as well. I can't even begin to list the number of drivers AND fans that have died at road courses.[/QUOTE]

 

[Layla's Keeper]

And let us not forget Alex Zanardi's near fatal accident at the Lausitzring in Germany or Gonzalo Rodriguez's death in practice at Laguna Seca.

The IRL has had its share of horrific accidents in its short tenure, too. Davey Hamilton lost portions of his feet in a crash at Texas in 2001, and then you have Kenny Brack's almost career ending crash (also at Texas) and Tony Renna's fatal testing accident at Indianapolis.

Both series have had their share of bad wrecks, and quite frankly it's not a matter of car construction or track construction (even though the Texas oval is - honestly - a bad place for open wheel racing. Any track that the NASCAR stockers can crack 200mph at while still needing to let off for the corners is not a safe place for open wheel racing).

It's a matter of speed. At a 60mph average on a 2.5mile oval, you have 150seconds a lap to decide what you're going to do. At a 215mph average, you have 41.86seconds to decide what you're going to do.

In other words, you lose about 1.8 minutes to figure out how you're going to approach the track.

Now, consider that the 215mph is just an average, then you have to work in closing rates at the 225 to 230 that Indy or Champ Cars run at, and you need ridiculously quick reflexes to interpret where the car is going before it gets there and heightened awareness of everyone running around you.

NASCAR at Talladega or Daytona is a perfect example of what happens when you put Indy or Champ Cars on the Texas, Las Vegas, or Fontana ovals. The big difference, though, is one series runs 850hp 3000+ lb all steel full fendered tanks designed to take a beating, and the other two run 600 - 800hp 1500lb (or less) open wheel arrows designed to blow apart on impact.

Kenny Brack's Texas crash recorded a record 214g impact. It left him with the following injuries.

- broken sternum,
- 2 broken ribs
- broken L3 vertebrae
- broken right femur
- both ankles broken

It's a list such as this that tells me Texas shouldn't be on an open wheel calendar. I welcome Rockingham, (the British or American Rock, they're both fine facilities), Nazareth, Pocono, Phoenix, Michigan, Lausitzring, Motegi, Gateway, Pikes Peak, the Milwaukee Mile, and their counterparts gladly onto the schedule because they're tracks that don't allow for flat out running. When you let Indy or Champ Cars run reliant on their downforce at flat out speeds on the high-banked superspeedways (like Las Vegas or Texas, or Daytona and Talladega for that matter) you invite disaster to take a front row seat and hope he never gets bored.

 

[JohnBM01]

If some of you remember 2001, I remember seeing (then) CART run a lap of Texas with Michael Andretti. I was so scared. Andretti could run Texas with little braking, and was running at extremely high speed. The race was cancelled because of safety concerns while racing. The speeds were scary, and I thought CART could have run the tough road course instead. You know, just to keep Texas busy for CART. So no matter how you look at it, every race is a risk. Last Champ Car road course death I remember was that one dude back in 1999 at Laguna Seca. Since then, I haven't really followed a lot of races since the move to ESPN/ABC to Speed Channel to (sigh) Spike TV.

Just because IRL is going road racing doesn't mean that it's going to ultimately evolve into another open-wheel road racing series. Now, this is going to be different based on how you feel. Do you think the IRL may end up as a poor man's Champ Car, or is it going to challenge NASCAR in terms of being an oval racing giant that can hold its own on road courses? Personally, I've seen the IRL as a NASCAR competitor more than IRL getting all the fame while Champ Car is stuck in neutral.

Concerning IRL's decision to start road racing with a street course, I think you're starting with a tough challenge. Road course racing is a challenge in itself, but when you can take on street courses, you're proving that you want to hit the ground running, so to speak. It was a sweet affair to have IRL race like they did this past weekend. They wanted to hit the ground running, and they did it with a pretty nice city in Florida. St. Petersburg was more like the Long Beach GP (coming up this weekend) of the east coast. It's a nice tropical setting on a tough course. So, I'd consider the IRL a winner for trying its first road race on a street course. Would you?

 

[Blake]

Excuse me? CART's oval racing is safer? Tell that to Greg Moore, or any number of CART drivers who have died in the past decade. Just because CART didn't have any wrecks at Las Vegas does not make them "safer". How about you take a look at the rest of the ovals CART Has run in the past few years. That's some of the most idiotic logic I've ever heard to call the IRL's oval racing less safe then CARTs.

It's also quite idiotic to claim that oval racing is more dangerous as well. I can't even begin to list the number of drivers AND fans that have died at road courses.

[/QUOTE]
CART doesn't exist . Champ Car has definatly got better statistics in concerns of safety on oval courses, despite the fact that they've only had 2 races on ovals. Champ Car races on ovals with lower average speeds than most of the ovals that IRL race on, which makes the chance of an accident alot smaller, and the chance of serious injury in an accident even smaller. CART was a dangerous series, especially back in the days when the specs were higher.

Oval racing IS more dangerous than circuit racing, a decade or two ago I wouldn't be able to say that, back circuits are a hell of alot safer now and deaths and serious injuries at circuits are pretty rare. High speed ovals however still see a fair amount of bad accidents, drivers are lucky the cars they are in are as safe as they are, and there are still serious injuries fairly often.

Blake

 

[The359]

Obviously you haven't been watching much oval racing. The majority of IRL accidents have the drivers WALK AWAY. As in they got out of the car and were able to walk around without any major injury. Kenny Brack may have been seriously injured, but he also hit a fence. See Buddy Rice and Dan Wheldon's wrecks where they flipped their cars, yet walked away.

CART may be slower then the IRL, but their oval racing has also been a hell of a lot more boring.

 

[Seventeen]

Well the Safety advances in IndyCar have spread to other series,and have saved a lot of people from serious injury or death.

The Steal and Foam Energy Reduction barrier is probably the best thing to happen to Oval style racing.I've seen video of the testing,and they show how the wall absorbs the hit,and Dr.Sicking really came up with an amazing piece of Safety Equipment.

It took Alex Zanardi accident to wake CART up to make improvements to the cars.The "Zanardi Bar" took a few designs to get right,I think Tora Takagi was stabbed in the leg by it in an accident after the first time it was added.The front end of those cars should've been stronger befor that though.Unfortunate circumstances sometimes have to happen befor people do relize.

Since this is about the St.Pete race,I had a great time,my boyfriend and I went.It was a great race,Dan Wheldon won.Which was good since it wasn't a former CART/Champ Car guy who won.He beat the Road Course/Street Course veterans he has teammates.The people of St.Pete were really happy about that too,since Dan's lived there off and on since 1999,and they've kind of adopted him as there hometown racing hero.Which was nice to see.He also lead the first 1-4 sweep in IndyCar history.Tony and Dario were driving like this for most of the race though.Dan and Bryan were the only drivers over the weekend who didn't need the assitance of the Delphi Safety crew for one reason or another.Were not counting Dan nosing it into the tires during his burnout lol. He did burnouts all the way around the circuit where he had room it was very cool.

We also saw Sebastien Bourdais a few times over the week we were there,he was cool.He's living in St.Pete too I guess,he looked like he was enjoying himself but shh...don't tell Champ Car fans that

 

[Blake]

Obviously you haven't been watching much oval racing. The majority of IRL accidents have the drivers WALK AWAY. As in they got out of the car and were able to walk around without any major injury. Kenny Brack may have been seriously injured, but he also hit a fence. See Buddy Rice and Dan Wheldon's wrecks where they flipped their cars, yet walked away.

Obviously you haven't watched much racing at all. The majority of ALL motorsport accidents see people WALK AWAY! A bigger percentage of (recent) accidents on road course have seen people walk away than the (recent) accidents on ovals. Ovals also have accidents more frequently.

CART may be slower then the IRL, but their oval racing has also been a hell of a lot more boring.

I find all oval racing boring so I can't argue that.

Blake

 

[a6m5]

I find all oval racing boring so I can't argue that.

Blake

I was the same way, until I started playing...............Mario Kart: Double Dash!

 

[JohnBM01]

One thing to remember is that just because there's a few road course races doesn't mean that the IRL is going to be the new CART. This "neo-CART," if you will, would have to be one to feature all the things CART had going like in the mid-late 1990s before things went to Hell.

Blake, you and I will probably agree on this, but there's nothing like watching a great street course race with Champ Car as the main attraction. I remember when they used to race in my hometown of Houston, TX, USA. I still remember 1998- RAINY, RAINY DAY!!! While that's nothing new about Houston in the summer, it was great to see Chip Ganassi rule CART, Dario Franchitti and Paul Tracy for the now-defunct Kool Racing, and let's not forget Alessandro Zanardi (Alex, of course) owning everybody with four wheels and a turbocharged V8 beast. In fact, I even have a Road and Track magazine on that race and the following race in Surfer's Paradise.

Street course racing is very tough. You have to be tough, but also smart. IRL's race at St. Petersburg, FL, USA was a nice challenge. Do you know why IRL road racing will likely be better than NASCAR road racing? In my view, Champ Car refugees (Tony Kannan, Helio Castroneves, Bryan Herta, Toranosuke Takagi, etc) have had great experience in road racing in CART/Champ Car, so they have an advantage. Whereas in NASCAR, many are used to ovals and doesn't have a stock car-based road racing series to fall back on. I consider Trans-Am more like sportscar racing rather than NASCAR road racing.

 

[y2kgamer]

Actually, some NASCAR teams do hire road racers to race in NASCAR road races.

But nowadays, the "ringers" are usually beaten by regular NASCAR drivers who actually race the entire season (such as Jeff Gordon).

 

[Blake]

One thing to remember is that just because there's a few road course races doesn't mean that the IRL is going to be the new CART. This "neo-CART," if you will, would have to be one to feature all the things CART had going like in the mid-late 1990s before things went to Hell.

No, but it will make life harder for Champ Car and IRL, the more the series' have in common the worse it will be for both of them. These guys either need to sort out their differences or one needs to go bankrupt. Champ Car is still on edge politically but they will keep going racing and they seem to have something good going now.

Blake, you and I will probably agree on this, but there's nothing like watching a great street course race with Champ Car as the main attraction. I remember when they used to race in my hometown of Houston, TX, USA. I still remember 1998- RAINY, RAINY DAY!!! While that's nothing new about Houston in the summer, it was great to see Chip Ganassi rule CART, Dario Franchitti and Paul Tracy for the now-defunct Kool Racing, and let's not forget Alessandro Zanardi (Alex, of course) owning everybody with four wheels and a turbocharged V8 beast. In fact, I even have a Road and Track magazine on that race and the following race in Surfer's Paradise.

Would you happen to have a transcript of that article or be so kind as to scan it? It's a pitty that when it rains in Surfers paradise it REALLY rains, it's kind of annoying that it tends to rain so hard that the race is red flagged. But when the cars get down to business it's always a good race .

Blake

 

[JohnBM01]

Blake, I have no scanner, so I'll just type up excerpts of the R&T article covering Houston and Surfer's Paradise in 1998. You ready? Read on.

HOUSTON RACE EXCERPT, October 4, 1998
"...Dario [Franchitti] recently became the first CART driver in five seasons to lead every lap of a FedEx Championship Series race.

"That milestone was reached in Texas where Franchitti kept [Allesandro/Alex] Zanardi out of victory circle by handily winning the Texaco Grand Prix of Houston, CART's newest street race. Sporadic rain showers tested the mettle of the 28 starters, and although Franchitti said he was accustomed to racing in the rain ("I'm from Scotland and it always rains there"). oil seeping up through the tarmac, plus the on-again, off-again showers, made driving treacherous..."

SURFER'S PARADISE EXCERPT, October 18, 1998
"Hoping to go two-for-two, Franchitti snacthed the pole again in Australia, where the only thing drenching the record crowd of some 95,000 was suinshine. Exploding into the lead at the first wave of starter Jim Swintal's green flag, Dario held off Zanardi for 13 laps until a yellow saw the leaders dive into the pits.

"...With few possibilities for passing on the narrow, sharp-cornered track, Zanardi was in the proverbial catbird seat...'I knew I had the car to do the job and I thought once I was in front, there wasn't much to worry about once I was in front, there wasn't much to worry about other than driving,' said Alex, who led the remaining 49 laps and returned to victory circle after a six-race dry spell. Franchitti, meanwhile, trailed Alex to the checker by half a heartbeat.
"Win or lose, Franchitti's the man to watch in 1999 when the void left by departing 1998 champion Alex Zanardi may be filled by the young Scot with the Italian name."

There you have it! And of course in 1999, Juan Pablo Montoya and Dario Franchitti had a bigtime fight that went around the world and back to where Montoya would eventually win the title by winning more races than Franchitti, not to mention Montoya won four straight races since winning Long Beach 1999. Now Franchitti is in the IRL as Montoya is racing for McLaren in Formula One.

 

[Blake]

👍

Blake

 

[JohnBM01]

Never let you down, Blake.

The IRL's remaining road races are at Sears Point and Watkins Glen, two tracks where I haven't seen any bigtime open-wheel action at. I've seen Star Mazda (for those who never heard of it, it's a support race series for the American Le Mans Series) race Sears Point. Watkins Glen was probably raced by the Barber Dodge Series that used to be televised a lot on ESPN. But haven't seen Champ Car or the IRL race either track. Both of those are heading into NASCAR country. Assuming that none of the CART/Champ Car refugees or experienced road racers have seen either track, which road course will present a bigger challenge for the IRL, Sears Point or Watkins Glen?

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, I'd bet the Glen is going to be a bit more of a challenge with its topography (it's hills and valleys are only outdone by Mid-Ohio's hills and valleys) and the course is notoriously fast.

Sears Point is a little tamer with more flat areas and distinct hairpins. It's twisty, but it's twisty in the way that a street course is twisty and doesn't make much room for passing.

Watkins Glen, both layout and elevation change.

Sears Point layout

 

[JoeyL]

I'm disappointed that ther IRL will be using dumbed-down versions of the Glen and Sears Point. They'll be using the NASCAR layout of WG and a special Indy layout of Sears Point which will include the NASCAR chute and the motorcycle complex with the motorcycle hairpin. It's too bad that the Indycars can't run the full-length layouts of these two courses.

 

[The359]

I'm disappointed that ther IRL will be using dumbed-down versions of the Glen and Sears Point. They'll be using the NASCAR layout of WG and a special Indy layout of Sears Point which will include the NASCAR chute and the motorcycle complex with the motorcycle hairpin. It's too bad that the Indycars can't run the full-length layouts of these two courses.

IRL is running the full Watkins Glen layout, not the Nextel Cup short version.

 

[JohnBM01]

Oh, they are, The359? Interesting...

I think anyone who may have raced NASCAR's races at Watkins Glen will have a slight advantage because Nextel Cup course does not include that extra leg of the course. But if you've ran the 6 Hours at the Glen, you have a pretty good chance of knowing how to go around the race track. Watkins Glen has something Sears Point doesn't- F1 experience. Watkins Glen used to be a stop on the F1 tour. I kind of know this because I had a demo of "Grand Prix Legends" on my computer, and it featured something similar to the current configuration, only without the extra leg of the course.

To be honest, Watkins Glen is a pretty nice race track, but I don't get too excited about it anymore. The course doesn't seem too exciting. I've played it in games before, but I don't know. I kind of don't feel the same way about Sears Point. Sears Point is a driver's track. If you can do Sears Point, you can race the big track in California- Laguna Seca. Personally, I like both tracks, two good challenges for the IRL. I still think that even though this is only the IRL's first season with road racing, I think it's going to go pretty far. This is a new challenge for most IRL racers. The Champ Car racers know road racing like the backs of their collective hands- Long Beach, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Surfer's Paradise, you name it. For now, they're racing the twisty Sears Point, and the challenging Watkins Glen. The next question for discussion is, if the IRL added one more American road course race, where do you think they would race? Or, where WOULD you want them to race?

I guess as a joke, since they have the Indianapolis 500, why not try the F1 course there? It's still Indianapolis. And instead of the left turn into Turn 1, it's the RIGHT turn into Turn 1. Haven't really heard about ANYONE using this infield road course except for Formula One and the "Tradin' Paint" segment.