Time for GT to STEP UP

[LVracerGT]

Before you jump to conclusions about this new title, read on. Shift 2 has been announced and it's no longer a "Need for Speed" title. EA has turned it into a simulation. And what they've done in just over a year phyiscs wise has put GT to shame.

Check out this very in depth article about the physics of Shift 2 that talks about real world CAD suspension geometry data and replicates in 3D space. So driving a Porsche 911 is actually driving a Porsche 911.

It's absolutely mind numbing that EA can accomplish so much in just a year when GT has had how many years...

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/02/02/shift2-unleashed-gt-gt-on-the-subject-of-physics.aspx

 

[Terronium-12]

In before the "You must be crazy for comparing GT to this!" comments.

I look forward to it though. I enjoyed the first, and I see no reason why it would be different this time around; hopefully I don't bite my tongue saying that, you know, like I did with GT5.

 

[column5]

The original Shift was a good, fun game. I'm looking forward to Shift 2 (especially now that I have a wheel) and I think strong competition on the same platform can only be good for Gran Turismo. 👍

 

[Exorcet]

I don't need Shift to tell me this. GT's focus on graphics was always a problem. You can always tell a new GT game apart visually, but after that it gets harder. Admittedly, the physics have improved a lot too, but there are quite a few issues that have never been addressed. Aerodynamics and tire grip modeling spring to mind. Tuning has been the same since the beginning, if you don't count the features lost from GT1. PD also seems keen on remaining "unique" instead of copying Forza's livery editor, among other things. I do like GT, really. But PD sometimes leaves a little too much room for improvement.

 

[dabest2500]

I completed the original Shift 100%.
It was frustrating at times.
Endurance races that only last 20 laps, and the AI on the hardest difficulty were just dirtier.
First lap on an endurance race and the AI crash at the first corner, then one of them reverses down the straight at me in an attempt to hit me.
Also, the cars are too light, really easy to flip.

 

[porsche 9146]

yes, because if there's one series we can trust to deliver on over-the-top hype, it's need for speed.

seriously, they said the exact same things about shift. I thoroughly doubt this game will live up to your hopes, and by buying into the hype, you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[CarreraGT]

I think the developers may be making some bold claims when they refer to the simulation aspect of Shift 2. I have never been much of a NFS fan purely because I prefers sims to arcade racers and Shift 1 was definitely an arcade racer.

That said, EA look to be heading more down the sim path with Shift 2 so I'm interested to see what they can come up with. I won't read too much into the whole suspension geometry thing because the footage in the trailers still looks fairly arcade like, but who knows they might pull out a winner.

And in regards to GT5, it needed to be nothing short of spectacular in order to stay at the top of the game for the next 5 years or however long it takes to produce GT6. Its not a bad game, but if Shift 2, Dirt 3, NASCAR and F1 2011 don't blow it out of the water, Forza 4 most likely will

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

Well, can't say what they've accomplished until the game is out(you would think you guys would've learned something about jumping to conclusions by now).

I am interested in playing something else with my G37, though.

 

[dabest2500]

Well, can't say what they've accomplished until the game is out(you would think you guys would've learned something about jumping to conclusions by now).

Yeah, I think I'll get Shift 2 after reading loads of reviews and watching gameplay.
I wasn't going to buy it in the first place.

 

[LVracerGT]

Well after reading that entire article and seeing how they worked with the real world drivers to make sure braking points, car feel, etc was correct and the new physics system I wouldn't be surprised if the physics end up being better than GT5. One of my biggest gripes with the GT series was lack of setup options and their repeated failure to include tire temps and pressures. It's one of the most basic, and critical setup points to a car.

 

[dabest2500]

Well after reading that entire article and seeing how they worked with the real world drivers to make sure braking points, car feel, etc was correct and the new physics system I wouldn't be surprised if the physics end up being better than GT5. One of my biggest gripes with the GT series was lack of setup options and their repeated failure to include tire temps and pressures. It's one of the most basic, and critical setup points to a car.

But F1 2010 also worked with a real driver...

 

[3thanol]

Looks very interesting, would be rude not to play it. Reading that article it sounds like they have really pushed hard on immersing the player with visuals and sound. if the physics is as good as they say, it should be a interesting game. Will certainly make GT6 all the better

 

[LVracerGT]

But F1 2010 also worked with a real driver...

I don't think F1 2010 ever claimed to be a simulation though. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[dabest2500]

I don't think F1 2010 ever claimed to be a simulation though. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

So what was it supposed to be then?

 

[tribolik]

But F1 2010 also worked with a real driver...

And a very good one - the physics where not bad if you played with a pad but the FFB is terrible and thats what Im most affraid in Shift 2 - bad FFB

 

[calan_svc]

Within the next 6 months there will be plenty of games out that will leave GT5 firmly in the dust. I think even the fanboys are going to have a hard time defending it at that point. But then again, there's been stuff out for years (even on the PS2) that can beat it in most areas, so maybe nothing will quiet the diehard Kaz fans.

GT had definitely better step up...and do it quick.

 

[BlueSky]

Already on pre-order. I can't wait for Shift II so I can (virtually) slide behind the wheel of a Porsche 911 GT3 and eat up the track! GT5 has left a lot to be desired... Hopefully Shift II will fill in the gaps left by GT5.

 

[LVracerGT]

So what was it supposed to be then?

A racing game.

A racing game and a racing sim are two different things.

 

[Exorcet]

Well after reading that entire article and seeing how they worked with the real world drivers to make sure braking points, car feel, etc was correct and the new physics system I wouldn't be surprised if the physics end up being better than GT5. One of my biggest gripes with the GT series was lack of setup options and their repeated failure to include tire temps and pressures. It's one of the most basic, and critical setup points to a car.

I didn't really see anything very interesting in the Shift article. Mostly marketing. For a while I was concerned that all the testers were using controllers. The first wheel was halfway down.

They are also vague on the CAD thing. I know that they did not rebuild the suspension of the cars in the game virtually. That would be too complex. They just made a model, that perhaps uses many real parameters, but I'm sure it's nothing revolutionary, especially if we allow PC sims into the mix.

I am going to be watching Shift 2, as I did with Shift 1, though. All it would take to drag me away from GT would be a better console sim where racing is the focus.

 

[calan_svc]

A racing game and a racing sim are two different things.

Really? How so?

I see this mentioned all the time, but nobody can explain it. They are all GAMES. People would be bored to death with a real simulator.

 

[Exorcet]

People would be bored to death with a real simulator.

I disagree (100%)^2

Look up the "Falcon" series of flight sims.

 

[Griffith500]

I'd be interested to try this out for myself (ideally via a nice, fleshy demo) to see if I can feel all this "CAD data" working...

It's been known for a while that the original Shift had a proper simulator backbone working under the bonnet, but it was "tuned" to be arcadey. I'm not surprised that they could quickly turn that around.
Real driver input, whilst useful on the whole, needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. It's good that they're using "experienced sim racers" who know about their general shortcomings versus the real thing, though.

I wonder what they'll bring in terms of sound; Shift was a bit glitzy and, frankly, silly. The "trailers" don't seem promising in that regard, though.

 

[calan_svc]

I disagree (100%)^2

Look up the "Falcon" series of flight sims.

How many hours of classroom work and training do you have to go through with it? How many screens worth of simulated trajectory and ballistics data do you have to sift through and study? Do you have to wear a g-suit and be subjected to 5-6gs of force? Is it only available on a 6-DOF gimbal?

Hmmmm... I bet you jump straight into an f-16 and you're off to kill bad guys while eating popcorn in your underwear within 1-2 minutes huh?

It's a GAME.

 

[LVracerGT]

Really? How so?

I see this mentioned all the time, but nobody can explain it. They are all GAMES. People would be bored to death with a real simulator.

First, you are right. Technically they are both games. But there is a difference.

Let's take Burnout for example. Unrealistic physics. Racing Game.
Gran Turismo 5. Realistic physics. Racing Simulator.

Toca 3 was a racing sim and I wasn't bored to death with it. I actually raced Toca as much or more than I did GT4. It wasn't as close to sim as GT was, but with the technology at the time, it was pretty good. Cars felt like they handled pretty realistically with all the aids off. And it had a good setup system, with one of the first console online racing I can remember.

It just seems like GT focus' WAY too much on graphics, and how many Miata's and Skyline's they can shove into one game, and falls behind in everything else.

 

[dabest2500]

Really? How so?

I see this mentioned all the time, but nobody can explain it. They are all GAMES. People would be bored to death with a real simulator.

I wouldn't.
I would love it.

 

[888 Tuning]

So... how did PD develop the new physics engine ?
I believe a lot of time was spent driving cars, but doubt every car was driven.

Shift 2 can do what they claim in the article but wont be able to do this for every car in the game I would imagine so they will also need to adopt a model to apply to cars that cannot be driven IRL.... just like PD had to.


All too easy for people to slag off GT5 when some company produces some flashy marketing. Proof in pudding people

 

[LVracerGT]

How many hours of classroom work and training do you have to go through with it? How many screens worth of simulated trajectory and ballistics data do you have to sift through and study? Do you have to wear a g-suit and be subjected to 5-6gs of force? Is it only available on a 6-DOF gimbal?

Hmmmm... I bet you jump straight into an f-16 and you're off to kill bad guys while eating popcorn in your underwear within 1-2 minutes huh?

It's a GAME.

Ok, so you wear a G-suit for GT5? It is a game but it's also a SIM. It SIMULATES what it would feel like IRL (minus G's) but they even make rigs that can SIM what the G's would feel like, tossing you around to get the fluid in your ears to trick you into feeling like you're pulling g's. Only problem is the average sim racer's can't even begin to think about affording one.

 

[calan_svc]

...Gran Turismo 5. Realistic physics. Racing Simulator.

Sorry... but no.

Any game that requires an ABS setting to counter the horrible braking, has abysmal low-speed modeling, scripted damage modeling, and virtually no FFB (at least where it matters) isn't exactly world-class physics. It's just a notch above other games in it's class; nothing more.

PD needs to step it up... and quickly.

Ok, so you wear a G-suit for GT5? It is a game but it's also a SIM. It SIMULATES what it would feel like IRL (minus G's) but they even make rigs that can SIM what the G's would feel like, tossing you around to get the fluid in your ears to trick you into feeling like you're pulling g's. Only problem is the average sim racer's can't even begin to think about affording one.

"Real" racing simulators rarely look like a game of any kind; in most cases they are just a computer screen with a lot of number crunching going on, or something like a 7-post where suspensions can be tuned, etc. You don't see many pro race teams sitting around playing games and calling them simulators. The drivers that do use games to become familiar with tracks would be the first to tell you that the "game" helps them become familiar with tracks, but has very little to do with simulating other aspects of racing....errr... driving in the case of GT5.

 

[Wizerud]

How many hours of classroom work and training do you have to go through with it? How many screens worth of simulated trajectory and ballistics data do you have to sift through and study? Do you have to wear a g-suit and be subjected to 5-6gs of force? Is it only available on a 6-DOF gimbal?

Hmmmm... I bet you jump straight into an f-16 and you're off to kill bad guys while eating popcorn in your underwear within 1-2 minutes huh?

It's a GAME.

So if it's a game, it can't be a sim. Ok, right.

 

[tyl0r_r]

Really? How so?

I see this mentioned all the time, but nobody can explain it. They are all GAMES. People would be bored to death with a real simulator.

Mario Kart is a racing game because it takes the concept of a race and the developers can do whatever they want with the concept. The real world has nothing to do with it. If there's a finish line, you're all good.

IRacing is a racing sim. Everything about it is based on real life. The races are meant to, as closely as computer hardware allows, recreate the races of real life.

How well either of these games do in accomplishing their task is irrelevant to the difference between a sim and a game.

Now you can't say nobody can explain it anymore. If you're going to start pointing out the flaws in sims, and how they aren't really sims because of those flaws (there's no cup holder on my couch! how is this realistic?!?) please keep in mind that I said "as closely as computer hardware allows".