Time for GT to STEP UP

[LVracerGT]

So... how did PD develop the new physics engine ?
I believe a lot of time was spent driving cars, but doubt every car was driven.

Shift 2 can do what they claim in the article but wont be able to do this for every car in the game I would imagine so they will also need to adopt a model to apply to cars that cannot be driven IRL.... just like PD had to.

I'm not saying that GT's physics are horrible. I'm saying that evolution of the physics has taken waaay too long. It feels real yes, but the fact that they're setup options still don't include tire pressures and temperatures tells me that they're not to par with stuff that was released back in 2006.

It's widely accepted that GT doesn't take into account the width of a tire. This alone deeply flaws the physics of every car in the game. The contact patch of a tire greatly affects it's cornering grip. It's like putting a donut on a ZR-1 and saying it will still pull the same cornering G's.

There is a forum somewhere here on GTplanet where a guy has been proving this theory. I can't find it atm but when I do I'll post a link to it.

 

[CarreraGT]

A racing game.

A racing game and a racing sim are two different things.

Not really...

Besides, F1 physics were really good. I've only played with a controller though so can't comment on FFB

 

[calan_svc]

It's widely accepted that GT doesn't take into account the width of a tire. This alone deeply flaws the physics of every car in the game. The contact patch of a tire greatly affects it's cornering grip. It's like putting a donut on a ZR-1 and saying it will still pull the same cornering G's.

There is a forum somewhere here on GTplanet where a guy has been proving this theory. I can't find it atm but when I do I'll post a link to it.

Ummm...that would be me. (see my sig for the link)

 

[LVracerGT]

Ummm...that would be me. (see my sig for the link)

Ah, well there you go. Lol

 

[CarreraGT]

Ummm...that would be me. (see my sig for the link)

It's an interesting topic the whole wide tyres = more lateral grip. On a basic level, it's not quite accurate, but there are many factors involved such as shape (not size) of the contact patch, tyre pressure and compound, sensitivity to distortion and camber change etc. There's actually some really interesting discussions about it on the web.

And with regards to the game vs. sim thing, it's silly to try and draw a distinction between the two. When GT1 came out, it would have been considered a sim, but looking back now you could argue otherwise.

All games are a simulation to some degree, they just vary depending on the developer's intentions. There is no black and white line. But yes I hope Shift 2 heads more towards the "sim" end of the scale

 

[MowTin]

"Real" racing simulators rarely look like a game of any kind; in most cases they are just a computer screen with a lot of number crunching going on, or something like a 7-post where suspensions can be tuned, etc. You don't see many pro race teams sitting around playing games and calling them simulators. The drivers that do use games to become familiar with tracks would be the first to tell you that the "game" helps them become familiar with tracks, but has very little to do with simulating other aspects of racing....errr... driving in the case of GT5.

Stop playing semantics. It's a simulator. No simulator is perfect. Some simulators are better than others. GT5 is a better simulator than Shift 1 or FM3 but not as good as iRacing or LFS (but not that far off). But it is also a game.

As a fan of the genre I hope Shift 2 lives up to the hype. It's competition that moves things forward.

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

Question: Just because there is an option to tinker with something(tire width and pressure), how do you know it's actually figure into the physics?

 

[Griffith500]

Stop playing semantics. It's a simulator. No simulator is perfect. Some simulators are better than others. GT5 is a better simulator than Shift 1 or FM3 but not as good as iRacing or LFS (but not that far off). But it is also a game.

As a fan of the genre I hope Shift 2 lives up to the hype. It's competition that moves things forward.

This year should prove very interesting, now that GT5 is actively being updated (occasionally ). That's assuming the competition turns out to be any cop.

 

[zr1chris]

Shift 1's physics are nowhere near GT5 so Shift 2 better improve a tone to have the physics of GT5.

 

[calan_svc]

And with regards to the game vs. sim thing, it's silly to try and draw a distinction between the two...All games are a simulation to some degree, they just vary depending on the developer's intentions. There is no black and white line.

Stop playing semantics

Agreed...it is a matter of semantics, and I'm guilty of it myself. I've spent 25 years around true simulations of all kinds in my professional life (FEA, CFD, mechanics modeling, motion simulation, human factors modeling, digital circuit simulations, etc.), and I just get a little excited when people start talking about a console racing game as if it is some kind of professional simulation that is used to accomplish something of any importance.

It's all good.

 

[Exorcet]

Hmmmm... I bet you jump straight into an f-16 and you're off to kill bad guys while eating popcorn in your underwear within 1-2 minutes huh?

It's a GAME.

There's actually quite a bit of training unless you're a F-16 pilot already. You have the option to practice or not, but you won't get far without it.

However, the point is, a simulator does not need to recreate a second life for you. A simulator aims to replicate something. That something is its only focus, and the only thing that needs to be realistic. Since you use CAD and what not, you should know. I can use CFD software to model flow around a wing fairly well. It won't do me any good in modeling the effects of an earthquake on a city, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.

 

[CeeJay]

Seriously pumped for Shift 2!! I hope it's a fun game & is a success. PD needs more competition on the PS3.

 

[GTOne2Three]

Shift is not what I'm worried about. It's Forza 4.

PD was suppose to come back and snatch the crown, all they did was force themselves onto the throne next to Turn 10, and throw their cards on the table. Now Turn10 is gonna come back around and push PD right back off.

It's gonna be 2005 all over again..

 

[CarreraGT]

I'm not worried, I'm excited! After the disappointment that is GT5, I can't wait to play Forza 4

 

[Ghost Rydor]

It's widely accepted that GT doesn't take into account the width of a tire. This alone deeply flaws the physics of every car in the game. The contact patch of a tire greatly affects it's cornering grip.

Perhaps, but do you realise how much more complicated the game would be to make if it took tire size into account?
For a start when you put mags on a car they are rarely the same dimensions as the original wheel. So what size would they be? You can hardly expect them to provide you with every tire and wheel size known to man can you?
Then they would have to make sure that that wheel combination actually fits the car in question, not just at a standstill but with the wheels turned and the suspension at full compression. Then if you lowered your car all that would be thrown out the window as many combos would no longer fit.
Then you would get the hordes complaining that they can't fit as big a tire as they want and can't gain the grip of other cars that can fit bigger wheels.
Now see this, Standard cars as of yet can't have their wheels changed, so none of the standard cars would be competitive anymore.
It just snowballs from there. Wider tires create more drag and if aero isn't properly modeled you are going to get even further from reality. Cars with artificial performance so to speak.
Keep in mind as well that the size of a cars brakes also limit what size wheels you can fit.
Also, offset. Gonna model that too?
What about the guy who says "my car comes with this model of tire" Gonna model tire brands as well? Then more problems. Particular tires only come in certain sizes and they are contantly being replaced with new models.
I think you would find that if "reality" was modeled to a tee it would go right over the heads of 99.9% of players. Considering most people who turn up in my lobbies try to spam cars that require no adjustment I think it would be a massive waste of time and resources.
Trying to simulate reality is a mammoth task and I think you got to pick your battles. PD has done a pretty good job in allowing mods but whilst trying to keep the cars on the same level playing field.
Gt5 has enough players operating in "alternate tuning land" ( brake bias adjustment anyone? ) without confusing them any further.

 

[GTOne2Three]

I'm not worried, I'm excited! After the disappointment that is GT5, I can't wait to play Forza 4

True, but I always loved the GTSeries. Forza is great, but I always wanted to see GT run it to the ground in an epic come back.

 

[Ya Pops]

Ghost Rydor, Forza managed to incorporate different tyre widths and rim sizes. Why shouldn't GT?

It doesn't have to be a dead match for reality. Close enough is good enough I reckon.

 

[CarreraGT]

True, but I always loved the GTSeries. Forza is great, but I always wanted to see GT run it to the ground in an epic come back.

Yeah me too. But I'm finding with GT5 that I spend more time talking about it here than actually playing it so I just want a game that I enjoy.

The only reason I love GT5 is because I love cars so if someone else does it better, I don't really mind

 

[MowTin]

Shift is not what I'm worried about. It's Forza 4.

Can I use my trusty ol' DFP in Forza 4? No. I'm sure over 90% of wheel owners cannot play Forza without buying a wheel they don't really want. Logitech wheels just work with more games on PC. Why should I buy a $400 wheel for one game?

I bought an MS Wheel and it sucks.

GT5 allows me to play with the same DFP that I use on the PC. I don't have to buy some stupid PS3 wheel or some $400 wheel I don't really want.

For me GT5 is the best GAME with simulation physics that works with the logitech wheels on any platform.

But now Shift 2. I can buy Shift 2 for the PC so I won't have to deal with all the console graphics limitation. If the physics are good it may become my new favorite game.

 

[kuyaglen]

Are the people responsible for NFS:Shift going to screw over the PC gamers again?

 

[tigermilk]

Check out this very in depth article about the physics of Shift 2 that talks about real world CAD suspension geometry data and replicates in 3D space. So driving a Porsche 911 is actually driving a Porsche 911.

What a bunch of marketing babble. CAD is nothing more than design. The only benefit it would have for a game is that you can use the CAD model as a direct input into the graphics. Now you can take a CAD model and perform finite element analysis of it, but that's not the function of CAD. Now a tool labeled as CAE (computer aided engineering) will allow you to do things like finite element analysis, and with FEM you can make models to get spring rates. But personally, as someone who uses FEM on a weekly basis, I'd sooner test suspension springs than waste time modeling and coming up with an analytical estimate. A 5 minute test in tension/compression to get the spring rate beats modeling it. And if you include dampers in there as well, there ain't no freaking way CAD will help you there.

That said, it won't take much to improve on the overall enjoyment factor of GT5. I'm currently having more fun with the old Ferrari Challenge on the PS3 than I am with GT5.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Ghost Rydor, Forza managed to incorporate different tyre widths and rim sizes. Why shouldn't GT?

It doesn't have to be a dead match for reality. Close enough is good enough I reckon.

How big a game is Forza? Different tire widths and such pose little problem to implement especially when they are just making up values and don't need to adhere to a standard (reality).
And the more close enoughs you put in a game the more arcade and less simulator it becomes.

 

[-=DV=-]

Logitech wheels just work with more games

You have it back to front bub. Its the logitech that has less compatibility. Not the fanatec. The fanatec is compatible with EVERYTHING. The logitech is not compatible with xbox. Please dont go running your mouth acting like you have to buy a wheel thats compatible with nothing other than forza when that hasnt been the case as the 911 turbo s (and now the gt2) was designed to be compatible with everything (including periphrals from competing wheels!) once again you seem back to front...t500rs anyone?

 

[Ya Pops]

How big a game is Forza? Different tire widths and such pose little problem to implement especially when they are just making up values and don't need to adhere to a standard (reality).
And the more close enoughs you put in a game the more arcade and less simulator it becomes.

How big a game is Forza? Sorry?

Ok, the physics aren't *quite* up there with GT5, but they're not far off.
Compared to GT5's tuning/upgrade options and tyre simulation, not to mention pretty much everything else except the number of cars, I'd say it's the bigger game.
BUT.... This thread isn't about that.

 

[niky]

Before you jump to conclusions about this new title, read on. Shift 2 has been announced and it's no longer a "Need for Speed" title. EA has turned it into a simulation. And what they've done in just over a year phyiscs wise has put GT to shame.

Check out this very in depth article about the physics of Shift 2 that talks about real world CAD suspension geometry data and replicates in 3D space. So driving a Porsche 911 is actually driving a Porsche 911.

It's absolutely mind numbing that EA can accomplish so much in just a year when GT has had how many years...

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/02/02/shift2-unleashed-gt-gt-on-the-subject-of-physics.aspx

We are already discussing SHIFT2 elsewhere.

I'm at a loggerheads whether to let this continue. It seems to be a schizophrenic split between being yet another "GT5 sucks" thread or "SHIFT1 isn't a real sim" thread. It could survive as a GT5 vs. SHIFT2 thread, but as there are no comparisons available and no one has the game yet, there's very little of all that going on.

Temporarily locked, pending deliberation.

 

[Unidos]

This game will be amazing