Tips for Downshifting

[Bullwinkle]

I know it's mentioned every once in a while in various threads, but I'd like to pool together everyone's knowledge about downshifting and cornering in one place. The actual race craft isn't actually taught anywhere for these games, so this is the best resource I've got: your expert experience.

Since the daily races are all turning into one-make meta car sprints with no strategy involved, it's clear that I need to start trimming time off of my qualification laps. I think one of the ways I can do that is by optimizing the gears I'm using in tight corners and hairpins so I can maintain speed and also get the best acceleration out of the turn.

I think it's common practice to quickly shift to a lower gear to get the car around a tight corner and then shift back up to get out of the turn, but what is the trade-off for doing that? Is any pace lost when shifting down, even if the speed remains the same? Is it better to keep it in a higher gear and coasting through a corner?

For example, at turn 8 of the Nurburgring GP (that tight hairpin) and at turn 10 of Catalunya (the tight left after the long back straight) I find myself shifting to 1st gear to negotiate the very tight turn, but I also see a lot of people doing them in 2nd and even 3rd gear. I don't know how to tell if this is optimal or not. I'm guessing it is since the good racers are doing it, but I'd like to learn how to develop a strategy for these sorts of situations according to the principles involved so that I can make my own educated decisions about them.

I realize that this is going to depend on the car and the track, so no definitive rules can be established, but I'd at least like to better understand what the tradeoffs are for selecting lower or higher gears for the tight turns. Let's assume that fuel is not an issue so short shifting is not a concern, and that tire wear is normal so faster corners aren't going to wear them down too quickly. Just assume a 5 lap sprint.

Some questions that I have (I may edit this list as we go):

• Is it actually quicker to turn into and accelerate out of a tight hairpin (turn 8 above) in first gear? For example, I think turn 8 was around 60 MPH when I did it the best, and it didn't seem to matter what gear I was in as I passed through, but I couldn't get a grasp of the best gear for accelerating out of it.
• Is too much time lost when shifting from first to second to third in rapid succession?
• How does torque and horsepower affect these decisions? Do I want a higher gear for cars with more torque in low RPMs, or a lower gear for cars with more HP at higher RPMs? Can someone point me to a good resource for learning how to read dyno graphs? They don't seem very good in GT7.
• What does it mean when a car has higher torque than it does HP? For the life of me I can't figure out how this translates to racing situations.
• If the RPMs fall in the proper range of the power band in either of two gears, is it better to choose the higher gear so I don't have to shift, or is it better to choose the lower gear to hit the peak of the HP curve sooner and get out of the turn?

I'm sure more questions will arise as we go, and I'll edit to include them. But for now I'd like to start picking your expert brains. Thanks in advance for your patience . . .

 

[MotorHammer]

Wow that’s a lot going on in that post! Basically… it depends. Hard, Medium, Soft tires. Gr3 Gr4 Gr2, pit stop or not, long corner or hairpin… etc.. best bet is to go for gold on all licenses and take that experience and apply it to your daily race. You’ll see as soon as you race a track… and then again race to exact same track 5weeks later. You’ll be better at recognizing what gear you need to be in. Don’t be in a hurry to advance up in DR level… just harder opponents.

 

[Jump_Ace]

For me, I've noticed that the Aliens tend to downshift slightly faster than I do. I find the car is easier to control when the RPMs aren't constantly at/near/above redline.

As for Dyno graphs, you'll see a torque line and a HP line. They'll intersect, and where they do is your optimal shift point (in RPMs). Some cars will have lower end torque so it'd be best to shift early (dyno intersection point is more to the left). Other cars optimum shift point is closer to redline (dyno intersection point is more to the right).

When driving, just take note of how fast you see the car go when you shift early, middle and late and you'll quickly get an idea of how the car likes to perform.

Keep in mind, with Turbos, it's typically best to let the car rev past redline to maximize the Turbo output before it stops spinning when the accelerator isn't pressed. Anti-Lag keeps the turbo churning for, well less turbo lag

Circling back to downshifting, particularly while cornering, downshifting early can help keep the car closer to the limit while entering a turn (you'll also notice a car turns in easier in lower gears). Much of it depends on how the car is set up in the first place, or at least its tendencies.

RR cars for example may not be the best car to try and early downshift while trailbraking as there may be too much torque and/or the front of the car may dip too much, causing the rear tires to lift, losing traction. However, FF cars may be better suited to earlier shifting as the understeer may be reduced if the rear were to lift higher (allowing the rear slip angle to increase). Hope that helps!


Jerome

 

[xMAXIx79]

I can fully understand and understand all these thoughts... but I think you and many others vastly overestimate the benefit of using MT in the game.
In my opinion, the very first point is to really know all the other basics and to be able to implement them. In my opinion, driving with MT is "top class" when it comes to driving the best possible time (there are very few exceptions where MT is absolutely necessary in GT7 in order to be halfway competitive with these cars, the Gr4 M4 comes to my mind first one that is simply hopelessly inferior with AT )

I know I'm in the minority with my opinion but I prove it to myself and my friends almost every day/week that you can be fast with AT and compete with many other MT riders. THAT is the reason why I am firmly convinced that it would make much more sense for most people to concentrate more on the basics, to keep improving their own driving without incurring the additional "burden / source of error" of an MT.


But in order to write something useful.... you always have to consider what the performance chart of the car in question looks like under the setting valid for the race. That means you need to know what the torque and power curve looks like when BoP is active. This can differ significantly from the one that is active when no BoP is used and thus the possible/useful switching points also change.

The early/strong downshifting, especially on FR vehicles, helps to require less braking force on the front tires to achieve comparable deceleration, as a result the car is usually better able to follow the steering inputs, so it steers better and at the same time it overturns better out the rear, which allows tighter turns.....BUT all of this requires a lot of practice and vehicle control, otherwise you're significantly slower.

 

[Sunzi]

Use the handbrake in tight turns and hairpins. It'll rotate the car quicker by a couple of 10ths and when you really get the technique down, becomes second nature, and allows you to quickly tackle tight turns, that are designed to slow momentum, and get back on the power.

 

[OJBrit]

Use the handbrake in tight turns and hairpins. It'll rotate the car quicker by a couple of 10ths and when you really get the technique down, becomes second nature, and allows you to quickly tackle tight turns, that are designed to slow momentum, and get back on the power.

How'd you do that without the car spinning into the barriers?

 

[Sunzi]

How'd you do that without the car spinning into the barriers?

I can personally vouch for the technique.

I'm not some Gallo pro, but when you learn it enough you can use it in a variety of situations - not just hairpins - to correct your line, save yourself from the barrier etc.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I can personally vouch for the technique.

I'm not some Gallo pro, but when you learn it enough you can use it in a variety of situations - not just hairpins - to correct your line, save yourself from the barrier etc.

Probably not as easy on a wheel, is it?

 

[Skinny McLean]

As for Dyno graphs, you'll see a torque line and a HP line. They'll intersect, and where they do is your optimal shift point (in RPMs).

Then all cars - from F1 cars to dump trucks - would have the same optimal shifting point.

Because power is a function of torque (*), unscaled power-torque plots will always have the curves intersect at exactly the same rpm. Where that point is depends only on the unit system used. It's at 5252 rpm with imperial (pound-foot) units and at 9549 rpm with metric.

However, on some plots the power curve has been scaled/shifted (i.e. it uses a different axis than the torque curve,) affecting the apparent point of intersection.


(*) P [hp] = T [lb-ft] * rpm/5252 --> P = T for rpm = 5252

 

[kilesa4568]

I mainly use the sound to decide where to shift up as cars sound a little asthmatic when the torque drops off at high RPM.

Rev matched downshifts help with braking but if you're after lap time, a quick downshift at the apex can help with rotation. Being able to do an early up shift on the exit to get you out of the lower gears powerband makes things a lot easier, too.

There's a few fast auto drivers on my friend's list and I wasn't too shabby when I used it myself but I've never regretted the switch to the much more versatile manual. If anything, it made the driving easier. No more rev balancing to keep the ideal gear.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Being able to do an early up shift on the exit to get you out of the lower gears powerband makes things a lot easier, too.

Why does it make things easier? My gut tells me that being in the power band for, say, second gear is better to accelerate out of a corner than in third at lower RPMs. But my gut often fails me.

These are the sorts of questions that led me to start this thread in the first place. Looking for answers and finding more questions instead!

 

[kilesa4568]

Why does it make things easier? My gut tells me that being in the power band for, say, second gear is better to accelerate out of a corner than in third at lower RPMs. But my gut often fails me.

These are the sorts of questions that led me to start this thread in the first place. Looking for answers and finding more questions instead!

In theory, you're right but messing with peak power while you've got a bit of steering angle on is a lot harder than an early up shift, just before the power kicks in. It just simplifies getting the power down out of slower corners.

 

[Bullwinkle]

In theory, you're right but messing with peak power while you've got a bit of steering angle on is a lot harder than an early up shift, just before the power kicks in. It just simplifies getting the power down out of slower corners.

Ah yes, I see. This would have made a BIG difference in an MR last week at Nurburgring. They are so squirrelly coming out of a corner.

 

[kilesa4568]

Ah yes, I see. This would have made a BIG difference in an MR last week at Nurburgring. They are so squirrelly coming out of a corner.

Exactly.

As long you're running laps, you'll soon get the hang of it. The biggest thing about them is timing your downshifts to your braking so you're all set for the corner. Everything else is gravy.

 

[PirovacBoy]

@Bullwinkle i don’t know if my advice is qualified as I’m not amongst the fastest Drivers, but my advice would be to just drive and learn for yourself what works best for you.
If you’re precise enough with your Braking and Car Deceleration, than you might definitely benefit of using the optimal downshift Point.
But unless you‘ve truly mastered this specific Technique, I don’t think that the Downshift Method makes such a huge difference.
Keep in mind though, that in GT7 it’s all about Precision and Momentum and quick reflexes.
Pad or Wheel, it doesn’t matter.
You can be equally fast or clumsy with both Input Methods.
Don’t get hung up about these advanced Driving Techniques or trying to claim the 2nd or 3rd Step on the Ladder if you haven’t mastered the step before.
Of course the optimal Downshift/Power Band depends a lot on the following Section on the Track so you really have to think at least 1 or 2 Corners ahead.
Try to get a Rhythm for you the specific Car /Track Combo and just drive the way it feels most confident and consistently fast for you.
I often watch Top 10 Replays and I’m always baffled how precise and fast these Guys are.
I personally can’t mimic their Driving Inputs.
I‘m just not able to do it.
But I also absolutely don’t get mad or hung up about it.
Some People are just more talented/gifted or whatever which actually absolutely in no way doesn’t make them a better Driver.
They are just able to be a slight Friction faster than you and me, but within a lets say 2 Minute Lap, it just adds up a tenth approximately per Corner to finally let them finish their Lap around 1-2 Seconds faster.
They are NOT better Drivers or have superior Racecraft to us mere Humans.
They are just a Fraction Faster with everything, be it thinking further ahead or applicating Inputs 😁

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Use the handbrake in tight turns and hairpins. It'll rotate the car quicker by a couple of 10ths and when you really get the technique down, becomes second nature, and allows you to quickly tackle tight turns, that are designed to slow momentum, and get back on the power.

Same. Do you use stock handbrake or the drift handbrake?

 

[Sunzi]

Use the handbrake in tight turns and hairpins. It'll rotate the car quicker by a couple of 10ths and when you really get the technique down, becomes second nature, and allows you to quickly tackle tight turns, that are designed to slow momentum, and get back on the power.

Just realised you were talking about online. Don't believe the handbrake works online sorry!

 

[eran0004]

A few points on power vs torque:

1. Wheel torque is what powers the wheels and makes the car accelerate. Ignoring frictional losses and energy lost to making the wheels rotate, the acceleration of the car is the wheel torque divided by the wheel radius and by the mass of the car.

2. The dyno graph shows you the engine torque, not the wheel torque. Note the difference!

3. The wheel torque is equal to the engine torque multiplied by the gear ratio, minus frictional losses.

So far it seems like the torque curve is the important one in that dyno graph, because more torque = more acceleration, right?

This is where it gets tricky though, because we also need to consider the wheel speed.

4. The wheel speed is equal to the engine speed divided by the gear ratio.

Now consider two cars, A and B. Car A produces 100 Nm of engine torque at an engine speed of 5000 rpm. Car B produces 100 Nm at 10000 rpm. Both cars have the same mass and wheel radius and are currently travelling with a wheel speed of 1000 rpm. Which car, at this point, will have the best acceleration?

Wheel speed = engine speed / gear ratio, which means that car A has a gear ratio of 5, since 1000 = 5000/5. Car B has a gear ratio of 10, since 1000 = 10000/10. Wheel torque is engine torque * gear ratio, so car A produces 500 Nm of wheel torque (100*5) while car B produces 1000 Nm of wheel torque (100*10). Since acceleration is proportional to the wheel torque, car B will accelerate around twice as fast as car A, ignoring frictional losses and other inefficiencies.

So it seems like it’s not just the engine torque that is important, but also the engine speed at which the torque is produced. Since the gearbox is trading speed for torque, that means that 50 Nm at 4000 rpm is worth as much as 100 Nm at 2000 rpm, and as much as 20 Nm at 10000 rpm. In light of this, it would be useful to talk about engine performance in terms of the combined value of torque and speed, since that would show how much acceleration we can get out of the engine. And that is exactly what power is:

5. Power equals engine torque multiplied by the engine speed.

So, how to read the dyno graph?

Basically, as long as the power curve is climbing, that means that the engine speed increases faster than the torque declines, and the potential for acceleration increases. For the best performance, you’d ideally want to run the engine as close to maximum power as possible for as long as possible.

However, it’s important to remember that the gearbox is a torque multiplier. The lower gears have high gear ratios and can multiply the torque so much that you end up having problems with wheelspin when exiting a corner. A good way to solve that is to shift into a higher gear, where the gear ratio is lower and the multiplication is reduced.

Also keep in mind that this torque multiplication is also active during engine braking (the gearbox doesn’t care if the torque comes from expanding gas or from pumping air into the cylinder, it will happily multiply it regardless of which). If you shift down too early with a rear wheel drive car on a wet surface, the amount of braking wheel torque you get from the engine braking could be enough to make you lose traction and spin. Of course you can also use this effect to your advantage, by letting the engine braking modulate your brake balance. If you’re coming up to a tight corner and need some additional rotation of the car, you could shift into a low gear so that the engine braking shifts the brake balance towards the rear of the car and reduces the lateral grip momentarily. It takes a bit of practice to master this technique, but it can be useful to just be aware of this effect so you know what to expect when you change gears.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Ok! Now we’re getting somewhere! This is some good info!

If you’re precise enough with your Braking and Car Deceleration, than you might definitely benefit of using the optimal downshift Point.

What is the optimal downshift point? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is there a formula for this, or is it the inverse of the optimal upshift point?

Now consider two cars, A and B. Car A produces 100 Nm of engine torque at an engine speed of 5000 rpm. Car B produces 100 Nm at 10000 rpm. Both cars have the same mass and wheel radius and are currently travelling with a wheel speed of 1000 rpm. Which car, at this point, will have the best acceleration?

Do we ever get to know the RPMs of the wheels in the game? Would that be the engine RPMs x Final Drive ratio?

 

[kilesa4568]

As you go down the gears, the engine braking increases and too quick a shift at too high a speed will have you bouncing off the limiter. I just go by the engine note and a set rhythm with the down shifts. Like _ _ __ __ ___. Maximising the engine braking in the shortest gears...without hitting the limiter...

 

[Talon16]

In theory, you're right but messing with peak power while you've got a bit of steering angle on is a lot harder than an early up shift, just before the power kicks in. It just simplifies getting the power down out of slower corners.

It also helps conserve the tires and fuel.

 

[Talon16]

Have a look at Digit's track guide for this week's B. Yes, it's Gr4 on a FR car, but you can see two turns where he recommends downshifting into 2nd and at teh apex, upshifting into 3rd for corner exit.

 

[eran0004]

Do we ever get to know the RPMs of the wheels in the game? Would that be the engine RPMs x Final Drive ratio?

It would be the engine RPM divided by the gear ratio and then divided by the final drive ratio.

But you don't really need to know the wheel RPM, all you need to know is that the best performance comes when the engine can operate at peak power, so the goal when you're shifting up should be to let the engine speed (RPM) stay in the range where it produces the most power. The optimal shifting point varies depending on the engine and the gear ratios, but a good rule of thumb could be to shift up around halfway between peak power and the redline.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I'm still having trouble with the concept of not downshifting for corners. A lot of YTers take turns (like Sardegna) in 3rd gear?! It would seem to me that the power curve is so low that it would be suboptimal to accelerate out of the corner, even with a lot of speed going into it. Can someone help me understand this?

 

[kilesa4568]

I'm still having trouble with the concept of not downshifting for corners. A lot of YTers take turns (like Sardegna) in 3rd gear?! It would seem to me that the power curve is so low that it would be suboptimal to accelerate out of the corner, even with a lot of speed going into it. Can someone help me understand this?

Stability most likely but it's like I said earlier, short shifting up is a Gran Turismo way of controlling the power on exits, optimising how they control the car's weight.

You might be getting a little hung up on peak power and forgetting how usable the power band is around it.

 

[zortation]

Is it better to keep it in a higher gear and coasting through a corner?

For a hairpin? I prefer a gear where I can still control the engine speed. To me, coasting is something to be done when approaching a corner before braking.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Stability most likely but it's like I said earlier, short shifting up is a Gran Turismo way of controlling the power on exits, optimising how they control the car's weight.

You might be getting a little hung up on peak power and forgetting how usable the power band is around it.

What I’m trying to say (and doing a bad job of it) is that 3rd gear out of a hairpin (for example) if a not anywhere near the power band. 3,000 RPMs are not very powerful accordimg to what most dyno graphs show, and it would seem that it would make for very slow acceleration out of a corner.

Going back to the Nurburgring last week, the Porsche could swing into that hairpin halfway through and then I’d downshift to first, keep the RPMs up, and then accelerate to second then third quickly. It felt quicker. But I saw other replays where people did the same turn in the same car in third. They didn’t get around the bend any faster (same speed as me), but they’d keep it in third and get out of there. The RPMs were crazy low, maybe 3k or less which is far below tue power band. I’d try that and it felt slow.

So somebody knows something I don’t here, and I’m trying to figure out what it is. Is the high torque still helping acceleration even when RPMs are low? (I don’t think that’s how it works, but I’m still baffled) I even saw a Ferrari doing it and it and they are far from torquey.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Wow...so many complex explanations

If I need the car to slow at it's maximum, like DEEP braking, I hold off on downshifts so I get full braking at the outset, then I downshift rapidly to get engine braking (without lockup).

For tight corners, I often downshift a little early to get that handbrake effect. The rear gets a little loose and I can turn more. I have also noticed that, generally speaking, a lower gear will tighten the turn, so I flick it down a gear when needed.

To be fair, this is also what I do in real life and even there, I have no idea what the technical benefits are, I just know what the outcome is ..BUT that's on motorcycles, and I do find the game behaves more like a motorcycle. Most bikes now have slipper clutches (torque limiting clutches), so if you slam it down through the gear and then release the clutch, you don't get much of a lockup at all, which helps the handling immensely.

 

[pedrocor]

About coasting on higher gear or hold the car on a lower gear, In general I would say the most important thing to consider is the corner camber.
You gave two examples, the T8 on Nürburgring is a very interesting corner because comes after a downhill, so you get there at high speed and the car doesn't brake as much as normal and that is what gets you in trouble because you will enter the corner with too much speed if you don't take that in consideration. The actual corner is pretty fast considering it is a thrift hairpin because has a big positive camber, is almost a banked corner and it's advantageous to maintain a good corner speed because the straight after is uphill and the car acceleration will suffer.
The T10 at Catalunya is almost the opposite, because it has zero camber or even a slight negative camber, so the car will always want to go wide, wide, wide, so a lower gear will help to get hold of the car.
Also, generally depends os the engine+drive train layout and the gear ratios. Never can be good to corner almost hitting the rev limiter as your corner exit acceleration will suffer as you loose momentum with gear change the exact moment you go to gas, and such things.
Not to talk about torque curves and such stuff as many people already talked about it.

 

[kilesa4568]

What I’m trying to say (and doing a bad job of it) is that 3rd gear out of a hairpin (for example) if a not anywhere near the power band. 3,000 RPMs are not very powerful accordimg to what most dyno graphs show, and it would seem that it would make for very slow acceleration out of a corner.

Going back to the Nurburgring last week, the Porsche could swing into that hairpin halfway through and then I’d downshift to first, keep the RPMs up, and then accelerate to second then third quickly. It felt quicker. But I saw other replays where people did the same turn in the same car in third. They didn’t get around the bend any faster (same speed as me), but they’d keep it in third and get out of there. The RPMs were crazy low, maybe 3k or less which is far below tue power band. I’d try that and it felt slow.

So somebody knows something I don’t here, and I’m trying to figure out what it is. Is the high torque still helping acceleration even when RPMs are low? (I don’t think that’s how it works, but I’m still baffled) I even saw a Ferrari doing it and it and they are far from torquey.

The Ferrari is a 7 speed (I think) while the Porsche has a long and very usable 1st and 2nd gear.

Your way of looking at peak power and making the most of it isn't wrong in any way but it's taking things to the nth degree a bit and much higher risk than a consistency friendly early upshift.

Have you looked into weight shifting yet? Tidgney has got a nice guide on it and it ties in nicely with what you're asking about peak power and corner exits.