Toe in GT5 - confirmation on settings

[Getsum]

Hi all,

I am hoping to get a confirmation on front and rear toe values in GT5.

According to the suspension tuning screen within GT5, the image used to suggest what a negative toe and positive toe in not represented correctly.

A Negative Toe, wheels are turned in on the front, whereas in GT5 it is represented as the wheels turned out.

My question is, do the values you set, need to correspond with the image? or do you follow the normal rules in setting up toe and ignore the diagram?

Hoping someone can confirm and clear this up for me.

Thanks in advance,
ITR_Getsum
www.itr.enjin.com - want to race championships in GT5, this is where you need to be.

 

[CSLACR]

+ rear toe = less turn-in, more rear grip, - rear toe = more turn-in, less rear grip.

Front-toe is something I haven't confirmed much gains in for track driving in any case, though I believe - front toe can in some cases = more front grip, but with slower turn-in, and + front toe would be less grip, with quicker turn-in.

 

[Getsum]

+ rear toe = less turn-in, more rear grip, - rear toe = more turn-in, less rear grip.

Front-toe is something I haven't confirmed much gains in for track driving in any case, though I believe - front toe can in some cases = more front grip, but with slower turn-in, and + front toe would be less grip, with quicker turn-in.

HI CSLACR,

I know what the effects of Toe are, i need to know if the values within GT5 are in fact correct according to the picture supplied in the tuning screen.

 

[P_Lav]

Toe won't give you more grip, it does nothing to change contact area. It adds stability, or looseness in the rear, and turn-in or stability in the front. Having neutral toe will increase top speed as they'res less resistance from tire scrub.

As far as I know, GT5's use of pos and neg to is backwards to real life, but it corresponds to the diagram. Hope that answers your question.

 

[CSLACR]

HI CSLACR,

I know what the effects of Toe are, i need to know if the values within GT5 are in fact correct according to the picture supplied in the tuning screen.

As far as I can tell, yes.

Toe won't give you more grip, it does nothing to change contact area. It adds stability, or looseness in the rear, and turn-in or stability in the front. Having neutral toe will increase top speed as they'res less resistance from tire scrub.

As far as I know, GT5's use of pos and neg to is backwards to real life, but it corresponds to the diagram. Hope that answers your question.

It can and does in some circumstances in GT5.
A quick check of the few posted drag tunes will tell you that.

 

[P_Lav]

Sorry, I guess gt5 doesen't have to abide by i dunno... Physics.

 

[Getsum]

Thanks for clearing that up guys..

Wish they would have fixed it up so people are not confused..

 

[Getsum]

As far as I can tell, yes.

It can and does in some circumstances in GT5.
A quick check of the few posted drag tunes will tell you that.

From what i have read, front toe is used as an initial turn in for the car, once the car is in its turning motion, toe is no longer used.

 

[CSLACR]

From what i have read, front toe is used as an initial turn in for the car, once the car is in its turning motion, toe is no longer used.

Sort of yes, sort of no. Front toe changes the angle of the front wheels at every steering angle, (at least it should) so it can have an effect... I haven't seen anything solid whether it does or doesn't though yet.

Sorry, I guess gt5 doesen't have to abide by i dunno... Physics.

Only what is programmed into the game.
Obviously, in a straight line, 0.00 toe should give the most grip, but I can confirm that at least on some cars, 1.00 will give quite a decent amount more grip than 0.00.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Obviously, in a straight line, 0.00 toe should give the most grip, but I can confirm that at least on some cars, 1.00 will give quite a decent amount more grip than 0.00.

See, that sort of thing just melts my face off..!! I'd never consider putting that much toe on something, it's a frankly terrifying prospect. I've run 0.60 toe on some cars and they were all over the place.

For the record, I'm not doubting the above, just amazed that this game continues to surprise me...

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

See, that sort of thing just melts my face off..!! I'd never consider putting that much toe on something, it's a frankly terrifying prospect. I've run 0.60 toe on some cars and they were all over the place.

For the record, I'm not doubting the above, just amazed that this game continues to surprise me...

{Cy}

I mean + rear toe, which keeps the rear in-line, and makes it harder to turn, I assume you mean negative toe, which makes the back-end try to pass the front.
I tried -1.00 toe on a Civic RM, absolutely wild.

 

[CyKosis1973]

In my ventures through HKS suspension parts, I've tried it all sorts of ways. I'm never sure how to translate toe from RL to GT5. HKS often displays toe differently. Some times in mm, some times in degrees. I've no idea what GT5 measures toe in..!!

1.00, whether it be, + or - scares me a little...

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

In my ventures through HKS suspension parts, I've tried it all sorts of ways. I'm never sure how to translate toe from RL to GT5. HKS often displays toe differently. Some times in mm, some times in degrees. I've no idea what GT5 measures toe in..!!

1.00, whether it be, + or - scares me a little...

{Cy}

I recommend using GT5 tuning functions separately from real life, even if suspected to be spot-on in the game, it can't hurt.
But no, I would never recommend a high rear toe in either direction for a serious track tune, it'll crush the car.

 

[CyKosis1973]

For my Euro Shootout Caterham I followed the GT5 guide in terms of which direction to point the tyres. The numerical settings are as per the collaboration between a friend and myself, but I set the fronts to - toe. My friend has + toe set front and rear. Doesn't work too well set that way in GT5 though...

{Cy}

 

[Johnnypenso]

In real life, when cars reach high speeds, the fronts of the tires have a tendency to want to push out. So adding a bit of toe in, helps with straight line stability and making sure the tires are at 90 degrees to the direction of motion, at speed.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Sorry, I guess gt5 doesen't have to abide by i dunno... Physics.

Guess that you think contact patch is the only thing in the suspension that can increase or decrease grip?

Front toe can add ackerman - the inside wheel will turn further than the outside. This can be useful for give one tire more "mechanical" grip than the other.

Rear toe can be useful to settle a car down in mid corner. If the outside rear wheel is aiming slightly inward when it has much of the weight sitting on it, it will cut down on the rear slip angle. Opposite is true with toe out on the rear. At mid corner much of the weight will be on the outside tires and if the outside rear is facing slightly away from the car, it will produce more slip angle.

 

[oppositelock]

In my ventures through HKS suspension parts, I've tried it all sorts of ways. I'm never sure how to translate toe from RL to GT5. HKS often displays toe differently. Some times in mm, some times in degrees. I've no idea what GT5 measures toe in..!!

In GT5 toe is in degrees.

1.00, whether it be, + or - scares me a little...
{Cy}

1 degree of rear toe in isn't totally ridiculous. I work for an MB dealer and the factory spec for some of our cars is 0.85 degrees rear toe in plus or minus 0.25 degrees, meaning 1.1 degrees is still technically within spec. You can see for yourself on this PDF, just check the CL55 AMG specs on the bottom of page 390:

http://www.advantagewheelalignment.com/images/Wheel_%20Alignment_%20Specs.pdf

Keep in mind, this is on a road car whose tires have to last thousands of miles. I've used 1.00 on many tail-happy cars, with the result usually being a major increase in stability at the expense of only a slight increase in understeer. Personally, I find that to be a worthwhile compromise in many cases.

 

[Adrenaline]

I use front toe, to fine tune out entry/exit balance.
Agree with CSL on the rear toe.

 

[CSLACR]

I use front toe, to fine tune out entry/exit balance.
Agree with CSL on the rear toe.

So you've seen gains from front toe? It's one area I haven't explored to much yet, as it seems very finicky in gain or loss.
Is it negative front toe for slower steering but more mid-corner grips and vice-versa as the game info states?

 

[Adrenaline]

So you've seen gains from front toe? It's one area I haven't explored to much yet, as it seems very finicky in gain or loss.
Is it negative front toe for slower steering but more mid-corner grips and vice-versa as the game info states?

For rear toe, I don't know about more or less grip, I focus on turning ability. I always start at 0.00 front and back and do 90% of my tune with those settings. Then I use rear toe as you've described, - is more turning ability, + is more stability. I have seen some odd cases where this theory actually doesn't work, where + rear toe actually helped the car, but as I've mentioned before, I tune by feel and lap times. So I really give no concern as to what the number actually is, only what makes the car handle the best, which in return runs the fastest laps. But I start at 0, and use the -/+ based on the assumption - = more turning agility, + = more stability.

As for front toe... Again, I've ran into a few occasions where my theory is found to be reversed, but for the majority of the time, - front toe = more turn in, but also more push out. On the opposite end of the spectrum, + front toe, allows me to get a better run off the corner, but the car doesn't dive into the corner as well. So, back to what I said earlier, I start at 0.00, then based on where I'm at with the car, I use toe to fine tune the entry/exit balance. If the car dives in the corners nicely, but struggles on exit, I go positive. If the car is getting off the corners great, with room to spare, I add + front toe, to help the car get into the corners better.

The goal, is to find the best balance on both ends, to offer consistency and quickness. A better entry can give you a better exit, but a better exit can not give you a better entry, although a better exit gives you better straight away speeds. It's always a balancing act, and I rarely change rear toe in isolation. I almost always compound tune the LSD with my rear toe settings.

Please note, the above method, is based on my personal preference and experience only. I don't claim that it's correct, nor that anyone else's theory is wrong. It's not the best method, it's not the worst, it's just another way to skin a cat. It's what works for me, no more, no less.

Toe is usually the last thing I mess with. I try to get the handling all worked out via springs/shocks and sways, before I start tweaking toe, and I personally put the most emphasis on shocks. And as everyone knows, I believe the LSD is the largest tuning factor available to us. Shocks and ride height are next in line. (Based on the assumption you're using max aero 99% of the time, rendering it a moot point.)

 

[CSLACR]

For rear toe, I don't know about more or less grip, I focus on turning ability. I always start at 0.00 front and back and do 90% of my tune with those settings. Then I use rear toe as you've described, - is more turning ability, + is more stability. I have seen some odd cases where this theory actually doesn't work, where + rear toe actually helped the car, but as I've mentioned before, I tune by feel and lap times. So I really give no concern as to what the number actually is, only what makes the car handle the best, which in return runs the fastest laps. But I start at 0, and use the -/+ based on the assumption - = more turning agility, + = more stability.

As for front toe... Again, I've ran into a few occasions where my theory is found to be reversed, but for the majority of the time, - front toe = more turn in, but also more push out. On the opposite end of the spectrum, + front toe, allows me to get a better run off the corner, but the car doesn't dive into the corner as well. So, back to what I said earlier, I start at 0.00, then based on where I'm at with the car, I use toe to fine tune the entry/exit balance. If the car dives in the corners nicely, but struggles on exit, I go positive. If the car is getting off the corners great, with room to spare, I add + front toe, to help the car get into the corners better.

The goal, is to find the best balance on both ends, to offer consistency and quickness. A better entry can give you a better exit, but a better exit can not give you a better entry, although a better exit gives you better straight away speeds. It's always a balancing act, and I rarely change rear toe in isolation. I almost always compound tune the LSD with my rear toe settings.

Please note, the above method, is based on my personal preference and experience only. I don't claim that it's correct, nor that anyone else's theory is wrong. It's not the best method, it's not the worst, it's just another way to skin a cat. It's what works for me, no more, no less.

Toe is usually the last thing I mess with. I try to get the handling all worked out via springs/shocks and sways, before I start tweaking toe, and I personally put the most emphasis on shocks. And as everyone knows, I believe the LSD is the largest tuning factor available to us. Shocks and ride height are next in line. (Based on the assumption you're using max aero 99% of the time, rendering it a moot point.)

I see, mostly agreed, though I've found very interesting results from camber lately, and it seems to have play on effective toe settings.

The toe/camber relation and shocks are something I've been developing slowly here and there, I'll definitely be spending quality time with them in the very near future in a SuperGT car.

But through a couple recent very enlightening tests, I've found exactly as you say, that rear toe should be kept as close to 0.00 as possible, which was my old theory that I doubted for a short period of time.

 

[d24689]

As far as I can tell, yes.

It can and does in some circumstances in GT5.
A quick check of the few posted drag tunes will tell you that.

Yes, CSLACR is correct, negative and positive toe have great affects on drag racing. + toe increases grip if you need to shorten your gears more than normal, And the opposite if applying - toe.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I find myself pretty much in agreement with Adrenaline. Early on, before I figured out how to tune the whole suspension, I discovered that some positive rear toe helps to really stabilize a car under hard acceleration and keep the rear end from kicking out on exit. Of course it works best if you are close to a good tune already, it won't take a crap car and turn it into a Ferrari, but it does help in some cases, and I assume would help in drag racing.