totally unrealistic lap record for ime trial monza

[stefnys]

The time to beat at Monza for (with the FXX) is set at 56 secs ???

I'm running at the low1.50's, which might not be the fatstest time but 56 sec just seems totally impossible. The second best time posted is 1.36, a big gap with the 56 secs, which makes me think even more this is a bug.

Has anybody else noticed this ?

 

[GTP_ENERGIYA]

Yes, i have noticed it. i think it may be a bug or thay are cheating same how.

 

[danjama]

Ha Ha i suppose we could all try, it will only make us better!

 

[amar212]

There was 4 seconds lap on Monza with F355 Challenge car, I guess that player was able to bend the Matrix, thus he was the One.

And if he was the One, than we can't talk about cheating, you have to admit.

 

[jjaisli]

Monza is probably the worst track for 'cheating' because it's easy to blow through the 1st chicane (even by accident), avoid the penalty and shave 2-3 seconds off your time. But there were some bugs and loopholes, since patched, that allowed you to obtain unrealistic times.

As a results, there are actually bogus time trial and lap records all over the leaderboards. The worst pool is probably with the F430 where several tracks have a time of '0.00'. It's kind of frustrating because it skews the statistics for people who are legitimately trying to set proper lap times. Eutechnyx claimed already back in November they were working with Sony to try and clear them out. I'm guessing at this point they're putting all their resources behind SCC and just don't care about FCC anymore.

 

[Biggles]

On this topic: can someone explain to me what is & isn't a "legitimate" way to handle the first chicane at Monza? Is it OK to go straight over the "speed bumps"? I never feel this is the "right" thing to do, but obviously everybody else seems to be doing it...

 

[amar212]

On this topic: can someone explain to me what is & isn't a "legitimate" way to handle the first chicane at Monza?

Although the camera man almost died of decelration and actual "entry" can't be seen, by direction of the car and exit you can see there is no going straight-over anything. Even the slightest going over the first right bumper almost made the cameraman to drop his cam.


Next video clearly shows all almost ideal racing-lines for F430 on Monza, but that is where real-life bites the games. In games without propper damage for such behaviour and tyre wear you can do anything. With TOCA Race Driver 3's damage modelling - for example - you'd left all your suspension on the first chicane and eveything would just glow - red.


Oh, and with second video you can clearly see that average lap time for F430 Challenge car on Monza is 2:00 minutes.

 

[jjaisli]

On this topic: can someone explain to me what is & isn't a "legitimate" way to handle the first chicane at Monza? Is it OK to go straight over the "speed bumps"? I never feel this is the "right" thing to do, but obviously everybody else seems to be doing it...

It's 'acceptable' in the sense that the game doesn't hit you with a penalty. But there's no way you should be able to drive over speed bumps without inflicting serious damage (unless it was done at very low speed).

My rule is, straight lining the first chicane is acceptable in the LM (and maybe a few other cars) because if you're skilled (or lucky) enough to haul the beast down from top speed AND keep it on the track, you should be given a little leeway. I always make an effort to get it right but it's 50/50 and sometimes you know the moment you hit the brake pedal that you're just not going to make it. And knowing there are others behind you in the same car, it's best just to get through it as quickly as possible before causing a huge pile up.

 

[jjaisli]

Although the camera man almost died of decelration and actual "entry" can't be seen, by direction of the car and exit you can see there is no going straight-over anything. Even the slightest going over the first right bumper almost made the cameraman to drop his cam.

...

Oh, and with second video you can clearly see that average lap time for F430 Challenge car on Monza is 2:00 minutes.

I've seen various events run at Monza where the chicanes are open (as in Ferrari Challenge) and where they've been quartered off with barriers or even tires. Even in racing sims, I distinctly remember TIR had barriers at both the first and especially at the 2nd chicane which prevented you from straight lining. That loss of speed easily accounts for 3-5 seconds in lap time.

I would assume for Ferrari Challenge races, which are essentially run with amature drivers, that they would use whatever means necessary to slow the cars down at the chicanes and the videos here support this.

That said, having the 2nd chicane open makes it a lot more fun, and certainly more challenging. Just like the final Chicane at Montreal (which is ALSO quartered off in real life) getting it right or wrong make a huge difference in your lap time.

 

[danjama]

I will admit here and now that i NEVER cut the first chicane at Monza, and i hate it when i see people doing it because it gives them a clear but undeserved advantage out of the chicane. In fact i do it exactly as in video 2. I do sometimes cut the montreal chicane though as you really have to to keep up on that track! I woukd have liked mechanical damage in FC and any game for that matter, then we would have to look at engine management and all sorts of things. Your car would actually be worth something.

BTW were having a terrible "snow day" in england so i have the day off work, going online now >

 

[jjaisli]

I will admit here and now that i NEVER cut the first chicane at Monza...

BTW were having a terrible "snow day" in england so i have the day off work, going online now >

Well...ahh...I don't do it intentionally.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Both in Monza and Montreal I try to follow the OLR standard rule of keeping two wheels on the track at all times. But I do admit that in Monza sometimes a get a penalty and sometimes I get lucky ...

In Montreal, I guess nobody enters the start/finish straight without going through the "green stuff". But I think that in a private lobby we can always set the rules about that before the race.

The game has a few flaws concerning this. They should have stricter rules about chicane-cutting but, at the same time, I get really mad when I brake to late for the chicane at Spa and get penalized even if I'm trying to avoid an "Hamilton" move and I come back to the track to do the left corner ... but still get the penalty.

 

[Biggles]

Well, I noticed that my Monza times were well down in the rankings compared to my other tracks, so my assumption was that others were cutting the 1st chicane. So I started cutting the chicane, but I tend to do it in a half-hearted way. I think that the fastest way to do it is to straight-line it as much as possible by rolling over the bumps, but this doesn't seem to make much sense from a "realism" point of view, so it's left me a bit confused.

The 2nd chicane is more straightforward - straight-lining over the green makes more sense, & if you mess it up the penalty is a serious issue, so fair enough.

Thanks for the videos Amar - basically, FC looks pretty accurate, particularly in how early the driver needs to brake & shift down. Although, the times don't seem close to RL, the difference could be accounted for pretty much entirely by the different route through the chicanes (& the fact that the driver is not SEGEL. )

 

[amar212]

My rule is, straight lining the first chicane is acceptable in the LM (and maybe a few other cars) because if you're skilled (or lucky) enough to haul the beast down from top speed AND keep it on the track, you should be given a little leeway. ... And knowing there are others behind you in the same car, it's best just to get through it as quickly as possible before causing a huge pile up.

And THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. If I were racing behind you, and see you cuting the chicane as you decsribed, I'd quit the race in the very same moment.

If game allows you such non-realistic on-track behaviour, that does not mean it should be obligatory. Despite having cars behind me, I would NEVER cut chicane, not even if it means they will all pile up at my rear end. BRAKES are there to BRAKE - so, brake.

I know I sound nitpicking, but promoting clean and fair on-track behaviour should always be priority. What is the purpose of cutting the chicane, excpet to gain unfair advantage? None. So, it is not OK to do so. However, everybody is free to do whatever they want, so these are just my 2 cents.

 

[jjaisli]

And THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. If I were racing behind you, and see you cuting the chicane as you decsribed, I'd quit the race in the very same moment.

If game allows you such non-realistic on-track behaviour, that does not mean it should be obligatory. Despite having cars behind me, I would NEVER cut chicane, not even if it means they will all pile up at my rear end. BRAKES are there to BRAKE - so, brake.

I know I sound nitpicking, but promoting clean and fair on-track behaviour should always be priority. What is the purpose of cutting the chicane, excpet to gain unfair advantage? None. So, it is not OK to do so. However, everybody is free to do whatever they want, so these are just my 2 cents.

Calm down amar212, my comment was meant to be a joke because the LM is rather unstable under braking and getting that chicane 'just right' in that car is not the easiest thing to do. As I said in a later post, I always attempt to get it right.

 

[myke6699]

I wish FC has a better TT- from the way it tabulate the results to how it's being presented but when I asked Eutechnyx if they were implementing better TT system, the answer I got was that it will be basically the same. If that was the case, an ability to save replays as a file (just like in GT5P) would help if anyone were to run a TT competition.

 

[stefnys]

Thanks guys for the feedback.

But the heart of the matter is that 56 secs is impossible whether you cut the chicane or not. Cutting the chicane might save you a couple of sec but not a full minute. How the hell can you ever that Italian Lap King Trophee ?

 

[Hun200kmh]

note to self: if amar212 is behind me (unlikely ) and I mess up a chicane but I'm lucky enough not to get a penalty, I better slow down pretending I got penalised or else he quits the race!

 

[Biggles]

And THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. If I were racing behind you, and see you cuting the chicane as you decsribed, I'd quit the race in the very same moment.

If game allows you such non-realistic on-track behaviour, that does not mean it should be obligatory. Despite having cars behind me, I would NEVER cut chicane, not even if it means they will all pile up at my rear end. BRAKES are there to BRAKE - so, brake.

I know I sound nitpicking, but promoting clean and fair on-track behaviour should always be priority. What is the purpose of cutting the chicane, excpet to gain unfair advantage? None. So, it is not OK to do so. However, everybody is free to do whatever they want, so these are just my 2 cents.

I think practically everyone cuts that chicane. The problem is, I'm not sure most people realize that they shouldn't be doing it - I wasn't sure. How much of the green can you hit fairly? Eutechnyx should have built a penalty into the bumps or made the bumps impossible to drive over successfully in order to make it clear. The fastest way through at the moment, is fast & straight over the bumps & "hope for the best".

In our last match, I agreed with E not to cut the chicane & it seemed a much fairer, more elegant race as a result. (He was still much faster! )

 

[GTP_ENERGIYA]

I think practically everyone cuts that chicane. The problem is, I'm not sure most people realize that they shouldn't be doing it - I wasn't sure. How much of the green can you hit fairly? Eutechnyx should have built a penalty into the bumps or made the bumps impossible to drive over successfully in order to make it clear. The fastest way through at the moment, is fast & straight over the bumps & "hope for the best".

In our last match, I agreed with E not to cut the chicane & it seemed a much fairer, more elegant race as a result. (He was still much faster! )

Really, i thought you were faster through the first turn at MONZA. i felt i was always putting too much power coming out off the first turn & not having a fast exit, too much wheel spin.

 

[MartyParty]

I think the discussion about how to play the game is interesting. The "play to win" vs "play to play"-theme has been extensively analysed for fighting games, FPS and RTS. The problem with racing games is that racing games aren't really games, or at least not the games we want to play.

"Proper" games should have rules that tell you what you are allowed to do. These rules should be defined within the game. In a "proper" game you shouldn't be able to break any rules. You may get penalised for doing certain things, but that wouldn't be considered breaking a rule that would be considered following the rule: "If you do this, you get penalised".

Problem with racing games is that you can get away with quite a lot. If everyone would "play to win" and only stick to the rules enforced by the game, most races would turn into destruction derbies. And they do... just look at some public servers or some beginner GT5 online races...

At the moment people are trying to deal with this problem by setting up house rules like: you aren't allowed to cut the first chicane at Monza, or if you push someone off the track you have to wait and let him pass. I am not saying that this is wrong. However you always have some trouble explaining and then enforcing these rules. Furthermore you have to have access to replays and it can be quite time consuming to go over replays and reach a verdict. When you finally get the verdict the last man passed the finish line hours ago, and how fun is that?

I think it would be in interesting to see developers putting more effort in actually implementing rules for racing. Then everyone could "play to win" and it wouldn't result in Destruction Derby.

 

[Biggles]

There are very rarely any "etiquette" issues with FC (or, for that matter GT5P) in my experience. However, the opening chicane at Monza seems to be a special case which the developers of FC do not seem to have carefully thought-out...