Towards a solution of the FIA point system

[nuu1212]

Inspired by a recent critical video by TidgneyRacing, I want to outline a simple solution to the FIA points system.

The general thought is that DR ratings as well as FIA points must follow the same simple and perfect mathematical system like ELO in chess!
I guess PD tried to follow this example for DR, but they failed to get the details correct.

1. It makes absolutely NO SENSE to cap the rating
In the chess example, what would be the point of all Grandmasters being capped at e.g. a 2600 rating!?

2. The FIA Points must reflect your performance with respect to the ratings of all other participants and thus must be DR ratings, too!
There is no other fair way to award points other than to directly use the ratings and the relative performances during a specific race!
Tidgney was on the right track when suggesting that the average DR of a race must set the baseline for that split.

I have no interest in working out a complete formula/algorithm here. Space is limited and I am not getting paid for it.
I guess the problem has already been solved for chess tournaments, as e.g. in this reference
http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/Formulas.asp

The bottom line is that we have to use the result of this one race to estimate the driver performance (which must obviously be done directly in DR rating)

A simplified linear version would look like this: (this is just a hint, take with a grain of salt before slaughtering!)
Say a lobby has DR ratings from 6000 to 7000 with an average of A=6600 and a standard deviation of SD=250.
Drivers would then be awarded points in the range from A-x*SD to A+x*SD from last to first, where x is a fixed weight (x=2...3 should be good values)
Resulting in the following points for 11 drivers from 1st to 10th place: 7100 - 7000 - ... - 6200 - 6100.
The actual race time differences could even be accounted for by not using a linear spacing...

The issue of how to account for different splits will always remain, but it can be minimized by choosing the details wisely.
There could also be an algorithm making use of the overall results.

3. Sticking to DR rating as the result of a race also solves the problem of multiple entries to FIA races
Your final points should just be the average of your individual entries.
Using your maximum performance as the final result also is a mathematically sound option, but probably not as fair as the average.
It is just a matter of taste at this point.

4. One more thing:
The fact that FIA points are nothing other than DR ratings could (and should) probably be disguised from "the masses" by simply using a fixed factor. Such that e.g. a DR=70000 race performance would result in DR/20 points for an end result of 3500 points!

 

[kub_man]

Yes, you are right. The main problem is the same caculations for DR and for championship points. They should be different obviously.

 

[Veinz]

I just checked out his Dear Gran Turismo video, I had no idea the points were given out like that. That's insane.

 

[banckzy]

Feel like this only really effects the top 1% anyway?? as that's who the FIA champs were really designed for lol

 

[kub_man]

Feel like this only really effects the top 1% anyway?? as that's who the FIA champs were really designed for lol

It effects to all who race in FIA.

 

[banckzy]

It effects to all who race in FIA.

Lol I don't see the point as an average DR.A/DR.B user.

 

[anthaliscious]

It would help if there was only one slot to race, such as the Supra Cup is setup now. In order to get in the top 20 split room, entry list goes by DR. Would prevent people from running to easier slots or tanking their DR to get easier points. Also doing multiple races of the same race a day is just absolutely bogus. I don’t want to have to do the same race three different times if I have to because it’s a low point room that’s meaningless to race or simply taken out of the race. Needs to be one and done. Not every single round counts so I don’t see the purpose to have three slots for a single race. I understand they allowed it because of the disconnects, but if only 1/4 of the races count that shouldn’t be an issue. If you have a bad race, suck it up. You don’t necessarily get to retry a race in real life in hopes of a better result do you?

 

[watto79]

Lol I don't see the point as an average DR.A/DR.B user.

I think the point is that even at the 'lower' ranks, there will be people in lower lobbies than you scoring more points than you are. It should be the case that you can look at your place in the rankings and that should reflect your ability and results. You could be picking up regular top 7-8 results but someone lower ranked could have more points than you as they are getting top 3 finishes in a lower ranked lobby. There should be an incentive to get yourself into the highest ranked lobby possible, but at the moment the exact opposite is happening. Tank your DR and pick up more FIA points.

I get that unless you are fighting for a Live Event position it doesn't really mean anything, but the rankings should be putting everyone in the correct order. This is a worse problem at the top end for sure where the points do mean something tangible.

It would help if there was only one slot to race, such as the Supra Cup is setup now. In order to get in the top 20 split room, entry list goes by DR. Would prevent people from running to easier slots or tanking their DR to get easier points. Also doing multiple races of the same race a day is just absolutely bogus. I don’t want to have to do the same race three different times if I have to because it’s a low point room that’s meaningless to race or simply taken out of the race. Needs to be one and done. Not every single round counts so I don’t see the purpose to have three slots for a single race. I understand they allowed it because of the disconnects, but if only 1/4 of the races count that shouldn’t be an issue. If you have a bad race, suck it up. You don’t necessarily get to retry a race in real life in hopes of a better result do you?

Yeah Tidgney made this point and I do agree. Allowing multiple entries seemed to be a solution to the disconnect problem that was quite a big problem at one time. However if that is largely fixed then allowing a single entry does make more sense and does make the event more entertaining as a good result will really mean something. As you say, if you muck it up then that's just racing.

 

[breeminator]

I agree with the requirement stated by the OP, that what the system should try to achieve is to award points such that they accurately reflect performance across all the different splits of the same race.

I also agree that the current system is so bad that it shouldn't be all that hard to improve on it.

However, if anyone thinks that all this is a solved problem elsewhere, and it's not that hard to implement a close to perfect system, I'd advise extreme caution with that view. I developed a prototype system for another sport that was based on using the mean and standard deviation of rankings, but running it against historical data showed that some results had an effect on the rankings that was clearly anomalous. Other people have developed systems for the same sport, and no candidate system I've ever looked at the output from has been free from fairly obvious anomalous effects on ratings. If you read the papers on TrueSkill and TrueSkill2, they are clearly written by competent mathematicians, yet the games that implement those algorithms still have some fairly glaring issues.

There are some differences compared to a sport such as chess. People don't compete at chess with multiple identities. People don't have unlimited opportunities to compete at chess and manipulate their rating up or down to their own benefit.

Another thing that might not be obvious is my experience from another sport suggests that not everyone even agrees on the requirement that a system should accurately assess performance. Once you get below the very top people, many people actually like it being a bit of a lottery, so they can "get lucky" every now and then and have a better result than their ability really deserves. It can be argued that this is beneficial to a sport overall compared to perfectly assessing performance, as it encourages broader participation.

 

[Sander 001]

I remember the original Forza Motorsport used the chess ELO rating. No idea why they abandoned it

 

[Veinz]

I remember the original Forza Motorsport used the chess ELO rating. No idea why they abandoned it

Dirty drivers and lots of people butthurt about being ranked lower than they thought they should be.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I think it does need a change. It really makes no sense that you could finish last in a 2200+ point race and get zero points with a race time that could net you 1st place in a 1500 point race. That's just inviting people to tank their DR, or worse, tank DR by tanking SR to get the reset.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Feel like this only really effects the top 1% anyway?? as that's who the FIA champs were really designed for lol

The FIA races are just to decide which of the top players go to the video game shows. So why not just give points to the top tier race (and have entry decided by practice time rather than DR). I would be happy racing for fun on different combinations to the dailies even if no points were on offer, I'm sure most other average players would feel the same.

 

[Lazybike]

I'm happy to do the FIA races, I'm A/S and am unlikely to ever disgrace myself at a final event, but...the races have to be fun! For most of us this is a game to be played and enjoyed! And as Tidgney pointed out in his excellent video even the top players aren't having fun.
As for the points system...it doesn't matter to me how the points are calculated or what value they are. I think we need to bear in mind that this game, with it's focus on sport, is still in it's infancy, and we shouldn't slaughter PD too much

 

[watto79]

I'm happy to do the FIA races, I'm A/S and am unlikely to ever disgrace myself at a final event, but...the races have to be fun! For most of us this is a game to be played and enjoyed! And as Tidgney pointed out in his excellent video even the top players aren't having fun.
As for the points system...it doesn't matter to me how the points are calculated or what value they are. I think we need to bear in mind that this game, with it's focus on sport, is still in it's infancy, and we shouldn't slaughter PD too much

Couldn't agree more on this. To be fair, all the YouTube videos and comments around here on this subject have been for the most part very constructive. Potential solutions have been suggested and not too much negative emotion has been flying around. This is very positive to see where conversations can often become toxic. PD are much more likely to sit up and listen to positive constructive feedback, so I hope the message stays as it is from our side and change comes from PD's side.

We all want the racing to be fun after all