Toyota News: Even MORE Tundra Issues; Camshaft Problems

[YSSMAN]

Prius; Toyota's Next Brand?
Automobile Magazine reported today that Toyota is create another brand, named after its successful Prius to better market its hybrid cars.

After MY2011, Toyota hybrid's will no longer be sold under the Toyota nameplate, but instead under the Prius name.

The Prius line of cars will be markedly different from their Toyota counterparts with unique sheet metal and hybrid powertrains. The Prius line will offer three different models which have been internally dubbed Prius A, Prius B and Prius C, ranging in from Yaris to Camry size. The Prius A will be introduced in 2009, "B" will be introduced in 2010 and the "C" will launched in 2011.

The exterior of the new Prius cars won't be as controversial as the first and second generation Prius were, but Toyota foresees difficulty in providing a spacious interior and trunk space because of the size of the battery packs.

A good idea? Its a tough call. I think the Prius name carries enough weight to do so, but this has to be the first time that a single model has been enough to warrant the call for an entire brand. Still, I don't like the naming scheme. "Prius A/B/C" just sounds like something you would hear at some mass-hybrid-murder trial...

Tundra Keeps Trying: CrewMax Also Gets Four Stars From NHTSA
Toyota swung for the fences when they unveiled the Toyota Tundra in Detroit, with an optional 381 HP V8, 10,500 pound tow rating, and huge proportions. The problem is, ever since the vehicle hit dealer lots, it seems as though one piece of bad news is hitting the pickup after another. First came rebates on the brand new Tundra, which is almost unheard of for any Toyota out of the blocks. Almost immediately after that, we told you about the four star NHTSA crash test rating of both the Regular and Double Cab Tundra. Next the folks from Aichi Japan got a bit of a reprieve when the IIHS gave the Tundra a "Good" rating, which lent some credence to Toyota's claim that the Tundra should have scored better on the NHTSA test.

Now NHTSA is giving the Tundra another four star black eye, this time on the popular CrewMax model. Even worse, the folks over at PickupTruck.com astutely pointed out a 40-percent variation in head injury scores between the regular cab and the CrewMax. With lower scores being better, the Crew Max scored a 677, while the Regular Cab receives a 486. At the same time, the Tundra's competitors are hitting five-star crash test scores, Toyota's biggest truck is now sporting an unenviable trifecta of four-star models, although we can't find any pictures or details of the Double Cab tests, and test data of the Regular and Double Cab are identical.

With Toyota's stellar safety record and the "Good" IIHS test scores, we find the results of the NHTSA scores to be puzzling, but with tests completed on more than one Tundra variant, the four-star bottom line doesn't look good for the all-new Tundra. You can check out the short video of the CrewCab crash after the jump.

Hmmm. So the Tundra is supposed to be the ultimate towing, hauling, stoping, safety, value truck... And yet the safety question is blown out of the water with the GMT900s, the F-150, and the Ram all getting Five-Star crash ratings, the standard GMT900s and F-150 being able to tow and haul more on the standard models, and furthermore all of them (if I recall correctly) being able to stop on the standard brakes as well...

 

[Sage]

I’m confused – didn’t Toyota just announce that they want to expand hybrids to eventually become 100% of their engine lineup? If they were going to spin off the Prius as their “hybrid division”, that would sorta-kinda make sense, but if they’re going to make all of their vehicles hybrids anyway, then what’s the point?

 

[a6m5]

Aren't four stars and "Good" rating like.... really good? I was under the impression that "Good" rating in crash tests were supposed to be above average.

Edit:

Here's a link to IIHS test results. Perhaps the most respected(and realistic) frontal crash tests are done by them. http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=70

 

[Wolfe]

...this has to be the first time that a single model has been enough to warrant the call for an entire brand.

I know this isn't quite the same, but both the Supra and the Camry were spin-offs from the Celica.

 

[1X83Z]

Aren't four stars and "Good" rating like.... really good? I was under the impression that "Good" rating in crash tests were supposed to be above average.

Yes but when all competitors got 5-star ratings, though it's absolutely good it's not relatively good. What I find comical is that Volkswagen has recently earned a reputation for safety due to its four-star Jetta ratings and some very clever advertisements, while Toyota's reputation is called into question based on the same rating.

 

[TheCracker]

Surely having a hybrid under the Toyota badge can only rub off well for the rest of the range, separating Prius can only detract from the Toyota name?

 

[Bram Turismo]

but if they’re going to make all of their vehicles hybrids anyway, then what’s the point?

Exactly! However, now the Prius would dissapear from their line-up, something interesting might take it's place. (New sportscar maybe?)

 

[a6m5]

Yes but when all competitors got 5-star ratings, though it's absolutely good it's not relatively good. What I find comical is that Volkswagen has recently earned a reputation for safety due to its four-star Jetta ratings and some very clever advertisements, while Toyota's reputation is called into question based on the same rating.

Which makes me wonder if the article might be a bit biased?

If you check out the IIHS crash test link, "Good" rating Tundra got was the best possible rating. And I've heard many times over the years that IIHS testing is the better test, because they are more realistic. Tundra's results looks pretty good against its' competition in their testing.

 

[YSSMAN]

Which makes me wonder if the article might be a bit biased?

If you check out the IIHS crash test link, "Good" rating Tundra got was the best possible rating. And I've heard many times over the years that IIHS testing is the better test, because they are more realistic. Tundra's results looks pretty good against its' competition in their testing.

I personally have never really seen that much bias on Autoblog before, given that they cover just about everything. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if pickuptruck.com is... But even then, I seem to recall them rating the Tacoma and Frontier fairly well.

I think Autoblog was pointing out that Toyota had massively over-hyped and over-played the Tundra while it had fallen short in so many measurements. They (Toyota) had managed to twist the stories around in commercials and advertisements... Not to say that they aren't true, but aren't necessarily the 100% truth.

Either way, there is a helluva lot of confusion over the tests altogether. With the IIHS test reportedly the "better test," it strikes me as odd that Toyota would get a lower score on this "easier test." Beyond that, the performance gap between the regular cab and the crew cab is just beyond me.

Here is the full-story from Pickuptruck.com:

In a phone call this morning with Toyota spokesperson Sam Butto, Butto tells PickupTruck.com that, "[Toyota] has looked at the testing done by NHTSA for both the Regular Cab and Crew Max and we've not been able to find any deviation between NHTSA and the internal tests we did. We accept that NHTSA has given both trucks a four star rating."

"But we're satisfied with the current truck's safety. There's only a minimal difference between a five star and a four star rating, and the Tundra received the highest rating from IIHS recently. Some people think IIHS has a tougher test [than NHTSA]," adds Butto.

Toyota engineers continue to probe what factors contributed to the less than perfect rating by closely looking at NHTSA's crash data and the Tundra's build, but a conclusion hasn't been reached yet.

"We don't have final information from Japan about the discrepancy, where it might be, or its cause," says Butto.

Asked about what steps Toyota might take with the current Tundra platform to improve the NHTSA score to a five before the next version of the Tundra is released, Butto says, "There's nothing specific we're going to do with the current truck (yet) but we're always looking to continuously improve the safety of all our products."

Finally, Butto helped clear up information about the 'missing' Double Cab test.

"NHTSA has never crash tested the Double Cab. [NHTSA's] position is the Regular Cab is similar enough to the Double Cab, so they don't need to test it separately."

Update #3: 05-15-07 20:21 PT

Once may be a fluke but twice starts a pattern.

NHTSA has completed a second round of crash testing with the 2007 Toyota Tundra, and has scored the Crew Max version with the same four star driver and passenger safety ratings the Regular Cab received back in March (see below).

A score of five stars is the best a vehicle can achieve in NHTSA testing. The 2007 Chevrolet Silverado, 2007 Dodge Ram, and 2007 Ford F-150 each earned five stars for driver and passenger safety in their NHTSA tests. Toyota's competitors are already using the original crash test results to emphasize the safety of their pickups over the Tundra.

This disappointing news for Toyota comes only a few weeks after the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) gave the Tundra its highest crash test rating.

After reviewing the results (charted below) you can see a dramatic difference in passenger head injury scores between the Crew Max and Regular Cab. Where lower scores are better, the Crew Max scored a 677 while the Regular Cab received a grade of 486 - an almost 40% variation.

It's still unknown whether the Double Cab has completed its tests, as scores published by NHTSA for the D-Cab are identical to the Regular Cab results and there are no pictures or video of a D-Cab test. Calls to NHTSA for comment have not been returned.

Update #2: 03-20-07 11:00 PT

In a phone call this morning with Toyota spokesman Bill Kwong, Kwong tells PickupTruck.com that, "We're surprised with the results from the NHTSA tests. During our internal testing, which was all done according to NHTSA criteria, we consistently showed (simulated) ratings of five stars from the get go for the Tundra. Right now our engineering team is reviewing the results but it's going to take several weeks to sort out. When we finish (reviewing the data) we'll determine what we might need to fix to make it right."

Interestingly, Kwong states that the NHTSA website is incorrect in reporting frontal crash test results for the Double Cab Tundra. According to Kwong, only Regular Cab testing has been completed while D-Cab testing, along with the Crew Max four door, hasn't happened yet. Toyota has requested that NHTSA remove the four star rating for the D-Cab Tundra from safercar.gov.

Beginning in September 2007, all new vehicles sold in the US will be required to display their NHTSA crash test rating.

Update #1: 03-17-07 13:30 PT

Added video of the Toyota Tundra regular cab frontal crash test plus comparative graphs showing the NHTSA scores of the 2007 regular cab full size pickups relative to each other.

Although it's not shown in the comparative graphs, the 2007 Nissan Titan was given a five star frontal crash test rating for driver safety and four stars for passenger safety. The same score was achieved in both King Cab and Crew Cab versions.

...And then it goes way-back to the first tests of the regular cab against that of the five-star Silverado/Sierra, Ram, F-150, and Titan...

 

[Tornado]

I think the Prius name carries enough weight to do so, but this has to be the first time that a single model has been enough to warrant the call for an entire brand.

I dunno if it was actually warranted, but Chrysler marketed the Imperial as its own brand in the early '80s.

 

[Philly]

I’m confused – didn’t Toyota just announce that they want to expand hybrids to eventually become 100% of their engine lineup? If they were going to spin off the Prius as their “hybrid division”, that would sorta-kinda make sense, but if they’re going to make all of their vehicles hybrids anyway, then what’s the point?

Toyota isn't planning to have every one of their models be a hybrid. They just want there to be a hybrid option. There will be a hybrid Camry, but you will still be able to get a regular V6 Camry ect. It's the same as what Lexus is doing.

Their brand naming is a little strange. Will the Prius A/B/C be current models dubbed the A, B and C or will there be a Pruis A/B/C and a Prius Camry, a Prius 4Runner ect.?

For the record, GM was thinking of marketing the Corvette as it's own brand. Many other cars have been their own brand as well, if I recall correctly.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

For the record, GM was thinking of marketing the Corvette as it's own brand. Many other cars have been their own brand as well, if I recall correctly.

^ In Europe, they do. The Corvette is under its own name separating it from other (mostly Daewoo-based) Chevrolet brand. (:

 

[a6m5]

I personally have never really seen that much bias on Autoblog before, given that they cover just about everything. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if pickuptruck.com is... But even then, I seem to recall them rating the Tacoma and Frontier fairly well.

I think Autoblog was pointing out that Toyota had massively over-hyped and over-played the Tundra while it had fallen short in so many measurements. They (Toyota) had managed to twist the stories around in commercials and advertisements... Not to say that they aren't true, but aren't necessarily the 100% truth.

Either way, there is a helluva lot of confusion over the tests altogether. With the IIHS test reportedly the "better test," it strikes me as odd that Toyota would get a lower score on this "easier test." Beyond that, the performance gap between the regular cab and the crew cab is just beyond me.

If not biased, maybe sensationalizing it, possibly? They just seem to be making a huge deal out of a vehicle that got the best possible rating from one test, got pretty good rating in the other. I'd think Chevy/GM pickups getting only the "marginal" rating from IIHS testing is a much bigger deal, as I believe their "marginal" is below average rating, if I remember correctly(I saw it on a show, a long time ago).

And in the case of NHTSA testing, I believe that they run the vehicles right into the wall, head on. So maybe it's not easier, but less accurate.

 

[Philly]

One of my dad's ex-co-workers was doing a study for GM, talking to people to find out if Corvette would be preferred under the Chevy or Corvette brand.

I guess the Prius brand debate is similar. Chevies wouldn't have "Corvette" behind them; Chevy might be viewed as even less of a performance brand. Toyota might lose any image of ultra-fuel-efficient cars if all the hybrids are marketed as something else. It's kind of like how Honda is a vanilla brand now that all of it's performance products will be Acuras.

 

[Duke]

Still, I don't like the naming scheme. "Prius A/B/C"...

Hrm, that naming convention sounds oddly familiar. Now where have I heard that before?
💡

 

[YSSMAN]

If not biased, maybe sensationalizing it, possibly?

I think its a distinct possibility. I mean, people want to root for the American team, but you never really know I guess.

...I saw that one of the people who just moved in the neighborhood has a Tundra. I just about flipped my lid. Those are just "not cool" around here. Its part of the reason why I've only seen two on the road thus far...

 

[a6m5]

I think its a distinct possibility. I mean, people want to root for the American team, but you never really know I guess.

...I saw that one of the people who just moved in the neighborhood has a Tundra. I just about flipped my lid. Those are just "not cool" around here. Its part of the reason why I've only seen two on the road thus far...

It's bit early to tell around here. Toyota do really well in Oregon, but I haven't seen that many new Tundras yet. I do think this one will sell though. Cosmetically, I think Toyota finally got the look of the fullsize truck right. Previous generation models just looked weird. Foreign.

 

[1X83Z]

Cosmetically, I think Toyota finally got the look of the fullsize truck right. Previous generation models just looked weird. Foreign.

You.

Are.

Out.

Of.

Your.

Mind.

You think THIS ONE looks right!??!? HAVE YOU SEEN THE MONSTROSITY?!?! Every time I see one I shield my eyes. It's damn near worse than B9 Tribeca, though nothing will ever reach that stage of awful. But I'd bet the designers of the Tundra went to the 'B9 Tribeca School of Awful Automotive Design.' I can't believe you, level-headed, intelligent, Altima-owning a6m5, just made the above statement.

Tears are rolling down my face. Tears of ugly, being cried for the Tundra.

All the other trucks make fun of me

...but it does 0-60 in 6.1 seconds!

 

[1X83Z]

I dunno if it was actually warranted, but Chrysler marketed the Imperial as its own brand in the early '80s.

I can do better - when the AMC Eagle was cancelled, Eagle became a Chrysler brand that was mildly successful in the 1990s.

 

[a6m5]

You had to find one in turd sand color, didn't you, Doug?

When I think of new Tundra, I'm thinking along the lines of:

If people don't like it now, I think it will grow on them. Then again, I like that Honda Ridgeline too, so take my opinion with a grain salt.

P.S. Don't tell people what I drive. My car sucks.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'd have to say that the Tundra is ugly both inside and out. Toyota tried so hard to make the truck look like it was tough all while pushing the idea that it is somehow connected with the Camry, it just turns into one big mess.

...The truck in the neighborhood is a brown/sand/gold color, and it is horrible. The only color I've seen that really looked good on it was that dark red, kinda like a rust color. But even then, thats a stretch...

Generally speaking, I'm not expecting them to sell well here. The impact of the Silverado and Sierra has still been pretty minimal, I maybe see one or two a day... But then again, I've been seeing fewer pickups altogether in the past week or so.

---

Either way, I think the only reason as to why people are making a big deal about this is because Toyota had promised so much with the Tundra, and yet had only managed to deliver on a few things. Part of that problem may be because the GMT900s turned out to be better than they had expected, and furthermore, the next F-150 should be out by this time next year.

Who knows? Still, with the "getting older" Titan still being able to beat-up on the Tundra even after the makeover, thats a problem...

 

[1X83Z]

You had to find one in turd sand color, didn't you, Doug?

Yeah - cause this thing looks so good.

How can you be serious?! I'm calling this the worst front-end design since B9 Tribeca, which is of course the worst front-end design since the anteater and/or hammerhead shark. And we have evolution to blame for the latter, so we're arguing against the forces of nature here.

P.S. Don't tell people what I drive. My car sucks.

I'm nominating you for 'best 4-cylinder on the forum.' Sorry YSSMAN.

I'd have to say that the Tundra is ugly both inside and out.

Yes - a level-headed car guy who agrees with me. I'm nominating him for 'best 4-cylinder on the forum.'

 

[YSSMAN]

Just for kicks we should do a "Best Four-Banger on the Forum." I doubt good ol' "Jenna" (my pet name for my Jetta... The other name wouldn't go over too well here) would win, but you never know!

 

[1X83Z]

Just for kicks we should do a "Best Four-Banger on the Forum." I doubt good ol' "Jenna" (my pet name for my Jetta... The other name wouldn't go over too well here) would win, but you never know!

harrytuttle has an STi, so probably not.

Man, if I still had that Volvo, I could've easily dominated in a 'best 5-cylinder' category.

And if I had a Tundra, I'd take the 'ugliest weird thing' category by far. Unless I possessed B9 Tribeca. Or was an anteater.

 

[TheCracker]

And if I had a Tundra, I'd take the 'ugliest weird thing' category by far. Unless I possessed B9 Tribeca. Or was an anteater.

Hardly, i've got a first gen Forester - that thing was obviously a warm-up for the Tribeca. Thankfully when you drive it you can't see the damn ugly 14-year-old-with-braces grill.

 

[a6m5]

I do like the engine in my car. New Altima's amazing though. It gets the same power rating(175hp/180lbs. tourque), but with the addition of the 6th gear, it gets 35 or something like that on the freeway. Make me want to get the new Altima.[/slowlearner]

On Tundra, it is my favorite fullsize right now, as far as the looks go. My top 3 best looking fullsize used to be either Dodge or Chevy/GMC in the top-2, then maybe Ford in the third place. But Chevy really blew it in the whatever generation that just go replaced( 👍 ), though I really liked the GMC version.

My current rating on the looks(light duty): 1) Toyota 2) Ford - GMC - Chevy 3) Nissan 4) Dodge

 

[1X83Z]

Hardly, i've got a first gen Forester - that thing was obviously a warm-up for the Tribeca. Thankfully when you drive it you can't see the damn ugly 14-year-old-with-braces grill.

Perhaps, although I've always liked the look of that particular Forester. What I hated was that in 2002, the product's final year, they made this grille optional:

A very small number of 2002 Foresters carried the grille, which is very endearing, and then they redesigned the product. I really thought they should've implemented it standard - at least on upscale models - much earlier. I see '02 Foresters running around with that grille every month or two, and it's a treat.

My current rating on the looks(light duty): 1) Toyota 2) Ford - GMC - Chevy 3) Nissan 4) Dodge

Real quick - how much is Toyota paying you? Really, how much?

 

[a6m5]

Real quick - how much is Toyota paying you? Really, how much?

I seem to end up defending Toyota a lot on this site, just because the opinions are unfairly against them. Many members here just hate Toyota. Yeah, I know that you aren't one of those.

Am I a Toyota fan? The truth is, off the top of my head, I've driven a 90's Camry once, but that's about it. Oh, and I've driven Scion xB. I've never come close to owning a Toyota, with the exception of the Scion xB.

 

[1X83Z]

Am I a Toyota fan? The truth is, off the top of my head, I've driven a 90's Camry once, but that's about it. Oh, and I've driven Scion xB. I've never come close to owning a Toyota, with the exception of the Scion xB.

Being unfaithful to the Altima? Or did you look at it prior to the Altima purchase?

 

[a6m5]

Being unfaithful to the Altima? Or did you look at it prior to the Altima purchase?

No, xB thing was just few months ago, I think. Car I wished I had bought, right after buying mine was Mazda 3. It came out just couple of months after I bought the Altima. Then around the same time, Nissan came out with a $2,000 rebate for my car. It still hurts to sit.....