Toyota reliability crumbling

[Poverty]

Toyota's Spate of Recalls -Paying the Price for Rapid Growth?
Japan Information Network Business News
www.jinbn.com
May, 30. 2006

Recalled Toyota's "Lexus GS430". Is something happening to Toyota?

Toyota Motor Corp. has repeatedly recalled its cars in 2006. The company filed a report with the Ministry of Land Infrastructure and Transport on May 16 that it was recalling a total of 107,767 units of the Land Cruiser Prado that were manufactured between April 96 and January 1999. The report said that the steel-made flanges that connects the driving shafts and the rear wheels of those cars were not durable enough so that the wheels could fall off after repeated turning, for instance, around corners on mountain roads.
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Also, the AP reported Toyota Motor Corp. , the world's second-largest auto maker, said on Tuesday, May 30th, it would recall a total of about 1 million vehicles globally to replace faulty intermediate steering shafts and sliding yokes.

In a filing with Japan's Transport Ministry, the company said it would recall a total of 565,756 vehicles in Japan, including Wish, Isis, Prius and other cars built between September 2002 and November 2005.

A Toyota spokesman said the recall would also cover about 400,000 units overseas. SOURCE.
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Toyota reported on May 10 its account settlements for the term ended in March, in which it declared new highs for both sales and profit.

Major national newspapers throughout Japan, however, reported cautious views on their May 11 issues about the futures of Toyota. Some of the articles could be summarized as:

1. Increased recalls indicated bad quality control, crumbling of the "Toyota legend."
2. Fast business expansion leaves a personnel shortage
3. High-cost management by big capital investments.

It could be said that these were accurate analyses.

Recalls Occurred 6 Times in 2006 Alone

The recall of Land Cruiser Prado was the fifth such action taken in 2006 alone. In February a total of about 26,000 Ractis cars produced between September and December of last year were recalled. The reason was that there was the possibility of the metal fixtures to fasten the seatbelt of the rear seat were misssing. In April a total of about 76,000 four-wheel-drive cars of 10 models, including those of Granvia and Hiace, produced between September 1995 and October 2005 had to be recalled. The connecting section of the device to carry the driving force to the front wheels of these automobiles did not have enough heat resistance so that, in the worst case, the system could break down and the cars would not move. The subjects to this recall incident included some 3,000 ambulance cars.

Further, a total of 11,109 Lexus luxury cars of four types, including the GS430, made between July and December 2005, were recalled because of deficiency in the seatbelts. Hino Motors, Ltd. , Toyota's subsidiary, also announced on April 13 the recall of a total of 26,150 Niho Profia large trucks produced between October 2003 and February of this year because of deficiency in the turbo system.

"Like an Army with Diminishing Logistics in a War"

People in the car industry are beginning to say that "the 'Toyota legend' of high quality will crumble unless the company does something." A reporter of a trade newspaper in the auto industry said that "people inside Toyota are furiously trying to do something because the current situation will develop into something very serious if nothing is done."

As a prime reason for the series of recalls, the reporter pointed out the "drastic production expansion." In the past year, Toyota's car production over the world went up by 600,000 units. The figure is equivalent to the total production of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. as a whole. "Toyota is suffering from personnel shortage and workers who don't have sufficient skills are increasing at its working places. It's like an army with diminishing logistics while engaging in a war," the reporter said. "It pursued cost down, and it cannot be denied the quality went down as a result. The employees of the company themselves are now saying they have to review what they have been doing," he added.

Source: http://www.jinbn.com/2006/05/30212653.html

Toyota recalls more than 565,000 cars
Source: MSNBC.MSN.COM

Defective parts could cause drivers to lose control of steering wheel

TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling more than 565,000 vehicles across nine models, including its popular Prius hybrid car, to replace faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel.

Subject to the recall are a total of 565,756 vehicles manufactured under the Wish, Isis, Prius, Corolla, Corolla Runx, Corolla Fielder, Corolla Spacio, Allex and Ractis brands between September 2002 and November 2005, according to the statement.

The number included more than 300,000 Wish cars and more than 113,000 Prius cars.

It wasn’t immediately clear whether the recall affected cars sold outside Japan. Toyota officials couldn’t be reached for comment late Tuesday.

The intermediate shafts and sliding yokes in the recalled cars lack the necessary strength and could distort or crack under strong pressure, causing drivers to lose control of the steering wheel, the Japanese automaker said in a statement.

The recall follows more than 30 complaints filed with Toyota since March 2004, the carmaker said. The company wasn’t aware of any accidents attributed to the faulty parts, it added.

*****
Toyota recalls about 1 million cars globally

by Reuters

TOKYO, May 30 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research), the world's second-largest auto maker, said on Tuesday it would recall a total of about 1 million vehicles globally to replace faulty intermediate shafts and sliding yokes.

In a filing with Japan's Transport Ministry, the company said it would recall a total of 565,756 vehicles in Japan, including Wish, Isis, Prius and other cars built between September 2002 and November 2005.

A Toyota spokesman said the recall would also cover about 400,000 units overseas.

The company said it had received no reports of accidents from the defects.

Toyota as a matter of policy does not disclose the cost of recalls.


*****

 

[YSSMAN]

Like, OMG, I totally called this months ago!!!

Mmmm, watch as Toyota falls behind Ford, Chevrolet and Honda on the reliability ratings, YOWZA!!!!

 

[Poverty]

Good, because whenever germans have these problems it hits the front pages.

The japanese have been slipping up for some time now, but are getting away with thanks to those utter crap JD power surveys.

 

[super cirrus]

Hmmm, a crack in the armor?

 

[YSSMAN]

There has been a crack in the armor for years, and the problem is stupid JD Power and Consumer Reports here in the US has their heads so far up Toyota's ass that they can't see what is good and what isn't. I suppose they can't help the fact that the magazine is owned and operated by a bunch of penny-pinching retirees that have nothing better to do than complain about a car that rides too rough or comunicates too well through the steering wheel.

Toyota and Honda make good cars, but just because they score well in some random reliability tests doesn't make them better cars than anything else. My family has owned Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Volkswagens, Chevrolets, Pontiacs, Fords, Dodges, Chryslers, Plymouths, Jaguars, Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, and at one point even Desotos and Studebakers. But to be completely honest, our Japanese cars have had just as many problems as some of their American counterparts, so I don't see what the hubbub is.

...Now lets see if the same stories are published in the anti-GM/Ford/DCX New York Times...

 

[IMADreamer]

Good, because whenever germans have these problems it hits the front pages.

The japanese have been slipping up for some time now, but are getting away with thanks to those utter crap JD power surveys.

That's the thing. This is nothing new but you never hear about it. Lord knows if GM, Diamler Benz, or Ford have a recall it's on CNN, the front page of all the papers, and everything else, but over the years when one of the big Japanese companies has a hicup it gets swept under the table.

I had a feeling the Japanese companies may slip a little. Once you get to the top it's hard to stay there and sometime the company slips a bit. I'm not saying toyotas going in the hole but maybe 10 years from now we will finally not have to deal with all the reliability stereotypes we hear about now.

 

[Tornado]

Toyota and Honda make good cars, but just because they score well in some random reliability tests doesn't make them better cars than anything else. My family has owned Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Volkswagens, Chevrolets, Pontiacs, Fords, Dodges, Chryslers, Plymouths, Jaguars, Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, and at one point even Desotos and Studebakers. But to be completely honest, our Japanese cars have had just as many problems as some of their American counterparts, so I don't see what the hubbub is.

Yeah, there are other, better reasons for that that have nothing to do with reliability.
I like the scandal surrounding the Hummer H2 when people complained to J.D. that the car got poor gas mileage.
Or, even better: The time Mini topped the list because the cup holders were too small.

 

[YSSMAN]

BTW: No mention of the recalls in todays' New York Times...

EDIT: The Detroit Free Press had a short blurb about it yesterday, more indepth probably comming soon...

 

[1X83Z]

Who cares? Recalls are part of doing business in the automotive industry. Plus, recalls have basically nothing to do with reliability. My Volvo wasn't recalled once over my period of ownership, yet I spent $10k over two years keeping the car on the road. Consumer Reports unquestionably is biased, but you guys are biased the other way - you're so excited that Toyota is going to falter, you take every little insignificant issue as a sign of that happening.

 

[Poverty]

Plus, recalls have basically nothing to do with reliability.

Now thats not true at all. It depends on which part is inadequate, some recalls could be to fix things that would cause accidents, which is alot worse than reliability, and if the car ends up in a wall because of a bad designed product, thats still unreliability on the manufacturer behalf.

 

[1X83Z]

Now thats not true at all. ... some recalls could be to fix things that would cause accidents, which is alot worse than reliability, and if the car ends up in a wall because of a bad designed product, thats still unreliability on the manufacturer behalf.

Ugh. I'm not even going to address the fact that you highlighted a portion of my post and said it wasn't true and didn't even rebut to it. But how about this: the defect that recalls usually replace is usually seen in about 0.0001% (OR LESS) of all vehicles, and is typically not serious in the slightest.

I mean the only article you posted where the number of complaints was mentioned was when Toyota was recalling 565,000 cars because of thirty complaints of problems occurring only under "strong pressure." So that means only 0.005% of owners experienced the problem, leaving the other 99.995% perfectly happy. And it later went on to recall 1,000,000 vehicles to those 30 complaints, meaning 99.997% of owners were unaffected. And THEN they said: The company said it had received no reports of accidents from the defects.

As I said - recalls are not a measure of reliability and never have been.

 

[Poverty]

how can you say that. Engine A keeps blowing up for whatever reason, manufacturer recalls, makes changes to the ECU and sends them all back fine.

Does that have nothing to do with reliability?

Or what about VAG. Coil packs were failing in the turbo engines at various different milage. They issued a recall and fixed the problem.

As for the amount of complaints the manufacturers claim they got, I wouldnt trust the figure, and how do they measure complaints. Complaints to dealers? Or complaints direct to toyotas head office by letter etc? If its the latter that is alot.

 

[a6m5]

Who cares? Recalls are part of doing business in the automotive industry. Plus, recalls have basically nothing to do with reliability. My Volvo wasn't recalled once over my period of ownership, yet I spent $10k over two years keeping the car on the road. Consumer Reports unquestionably is biased, but you guys are biased the other way - you're so excited that Toyota is going to falter, you take every little insignificant issue as a sign of that happening.

Bravo. I would give you rep points, but it won't let me right now(I'll comeback later, I promise).

As for the amount of complaints the manufacturers claim they got, I wouldnt trust the figure, and how do they measure complaints. Complaints to dealers? Or complaints direct to toyotas head office by letter etc? If its the latter that is alot.

You won't know for sure, unless you work at a Toyota dealer in my opinion. They are the one's who hear it from the customers first.

Here's my take on this:
Toyota haters come out on goes on about how Toyota quality were gone years ago. My aunt had a Celica, but it was breaking down all the time. Then she bought a Chevy Malibu that lasted for 200,000 miles! Oh, I love the stories.

Take it from someone who doesn't hate Toyota, but has never cared about them enough to own one either. Toyota still is rated at top in quality and reliability. This recall does not mean that Toyota quality is going to slide under the "Big 3". That would be a very long slide.

The key to this recall is that Toyota got on it, before it got out of hand. Yeah, media is keeping this a top-secret, and that's why I'm reading it all over the news sites on the internet. It even made my local news, which usually reports heavily about local missing dogs(little exaggeration there). If anything, Toyota risking it's reputation to fix the problems, instead of hesitating or "sweeping it under the table" shows their commitment to quality.

The article brought to us by Poverty makes great points about the Toyota's expansion though. At the rate they are growing, personnel shortage was sure to come. I hope all the companies and corporations took notes there. If your company's losing quality personnel, because they are stingy or whatever reason, the company might pay for that later. Company I work for, the management thought profits were very important, so they lost some people. Oh, it was nice for a while, until the loss of expertise and experience started to catch up, especially when we are busy during the summer. Now, we are at risk of losing another "big gun"(he might relocate), which will put us in a big hole.

Anyways, from the article, I'm not interested in the Toyota's recall itself. It's their personnel situation that intrigues me. I don't think they can overcome it, unless they try something drastic. Then again, they are very experienced in expanding around the world. I wonder how they are going to pull themselves out of this one.

Edit: Does gray dot with comment "N/A" mean negative feedback? Because green's positive, right? I think this kid needs to grow a bit thicker skin. Way too sensitive.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Judging by the last picture, I'd say they need to recall that suspension, too.
Seriously though, recalls have EVERYTHING to do with reliability. Toyota, looked at all possible costs, including reputation, expense in repair, lawsuits, etc. Then, they decided the cheapest option, was to recall them.

Maybe it's only 30 reports. Maybe that's because 10,000 havent had it happen yet. maybe it's because 5000 people didnt realize they could/should complain, or where to do it. I can guarantee you somebody bitching to the lady behind the counter at a dealership doesnt get logged as a complaint.
But the speculation begins, when you start trying to guess how many cars would actually break/wreck and possibly kill people along with it. So don't speculate, in favor of Japanese automakers AGAIN.

What we do know, is that Toyota thought this was a serious problem, serious enough to recall over a million cars, thats a lot of cash to spend on something that's only had 30 problems. Are we honestly so naive as to think Toyota is dumping all that money on something that's "not a big deal"
come on, use the think tank, or it'll go bad.

 

[TS]

Toyota's are selling faster than they can build them, so their sacrificing reliability to get Toyota's in everyone's driveway (except mine). YOu know what they say, it's all about quality not quantity

 

[a6m5]

Seriously though, recalls have EVERYTHING to do with reliability.

I think that's a yes & no. To me, ways to measure reliability are: 1) words of mouth 2)personal experience 3)studies 4)surveys/reports

Recalls doesn't have everything to do with reliability IMO, because they are all case by case. Some companies will flatout ignore issues, instead, willing to deal with the fire(in some cases, litterally ) that might take place later. Some companies have done this that resulted in no recalls, but deaths and injuries. That did not make those vehicles more "reliable".

I would look at more than just recalls to measure reliability.

 

[IMADreamer]

Toyota's are selling faster than they can build them, so their sacrificing reliability to get Toyota's in everyone's driveway (except mine). YOu know what they say, it's all about quality not quantity

The guy at the Mazda dealer said the same thing to me about the Mazda RX8 "they are selling quicker then they can make them". They had eight on the lot. lol I'm not sure about your local toyota dealer but mine has plenty of camarys on the lot. Yes they sell well but they aren't selling at rediculous paces either.

 

[Tornado]

Judging by the last picture, I'd say they need to recall that suspension, too.
Seriously though, recalls have EVERYTHING to do with reliability. Toyota, looked at all possible costs, including reputation, expense in repair, lawsuits, etc. Then, they decided the cheapest option, was to recall them.

Bull. All recalls mean is that a company found a flaw that was in a product that needs to be fixed. The car can still be miles and away a better car than everything else. Recently, Mercedes recalled all cars equipped with electronic brakes because a bug in the program could have caused it to fail. Does this mean that the car's brakes are horrifically out-dated? No. It means that the car had a problem that needed to be fixed. You sound it out like every automobile is outscourced to the lowest bidder for parts (though I will admit that that does happen. See Ford/Firestone debacle), which simpy isn't the reason for recalls.
Chevrolet found a flaw in the roof design on the C6 Corvette. They recaled it. Does that mean the roof on the C6 Corvette is tosh?

 

[87chevy]

*buries head in sand* It's not happening! If I dont read it it's not real!

 

[1X83Z]

how can you say that. Engine A keeps blowing up for whatever reason, manufacturer recalls, makes changes to the ECU and sends them all back fine.

Does that have nothing to do with reliability?

No for two reasons. One, the number of customers affected is probably about eleven. And two, the manufacturer typically recalls 2 million vehicles to answer the complaints of six customers, and replaces the part, despite the fact that the problem probably would've never even affected 1,999,600 vehicles. Hell, whenever they issue a recall it's a godsend if half the people show up to get the recalled part, and they seem to do just fine, so I wouldn't consider it as spectacular as you think it is.

As for the amount of complaints the manufacturers claim they got, I wouldnt trust the figure, and how do they measure complaints. Complaints to dealers? Or complaints direct to toyotas head office by letter etc? If its the latter that is alot.

A "complaint" in the automotive recall sense is defined as someone who has a) actually experienced the problem and b) notified a dealer about it.

I would look at more than just recalls to measure reliability.

Agreed - Check this out. Hypothetically (and possibly), I'm buying a used 1997 BMW 740i. How would checking the NHTSA's recall history of the BMW 740i in any way determine the reliability of my particular 740? It won't. The only reason I care at all about the recall is in the case that the 740 I am considering hasn't had it - which CarFax will tell me.

Recalls may damage the reputation of a brand - barely, because all brands suffer them - but they'll do nothing to change reliability of specific vehicles.

Does that mean the roof on the C6 Corvette is tosh?

Or the C6 Corvette itself is? Or Chevrolet as a brand?

And would that make a C6 Corvette any less reliable if you were going to buy one secondhand?

Hell no. It affects nothing. The general public is consistently uninterested with stories about recalls and usually seconds after they've heard "Toyota has recalled 9 million vehicles" they forget it.

 

[niky]

RE: The Corvette? Some guys have actually had the roof come off. Pretty disappointing in any car costing that much quid. That does mean the roof is tosh. I like the rest of the car, though. The brand? Unless they fix their damn customer service... meh.

RE: Recalls... I've been watching those for the past two years. Toyota has recalled more vehicles for more things than anyone else. Actually, the good side of it is that they recall pro-actively (I hate that word, but it fits) instead of waiting for snowballing customer complaints (look at what happened to Mitsubishi, re: turbo manifold problems, and the eventual scandals caused by faulty units and financial problems).

The bad side is, there are potential reliability problems with new Toyota engines and parts that don't warrant recalls, but aren't widely reported... sludge problems, faulty injectors and fuel pumps, etcetera.

While M5Power is right in that the recalls don't make Toyota vehicles unreliable, they're a symptom of the overall lowering of mechanical quality amongst Toyota products. Partially because of new tech, partially high volume, partially quick development.

True, your average Corolla or Camry buyer can expect years and years of untroubled service, but for those unlucky few, things can get pretty... irritating. We've got a thread on my local board devoted to owners of Toyota direct injection diesels with fuel pump/system failures. It's over twenty pages long. We don't have any similar threads for Isuzu or Hyundai direct injection systems. While those twenty pages represent maybe 0.1% of Toyota diesel owners... where are the disgruntled owners of the other cars?

I stopped believing in the Toyota myth years ago. Just because it has a Toyota badge doesn't mean it's gold. You've got to take the cars on their own merit. Same goes for Honda... while I still have faith in any Honda engine that hasn't been drag-raced, their build quality is just about on par, personally, with anyone else's.

 

[1X83Z]

I stopped believing in the Toyota myth years ago. Just because it has a Toyota badge doesn't mean it's gold. You've got to take the cars on their own merit. Same goes for Honda... while I still have faith in any Honda engine that hasn't been drag-raced, their build quality is just about on par, personally, with anyone else's.

David E. Davis, Jr., the former editor of every single thing ever written, said this stunningly apt thing about Toyota: "The fact that other Toyota and Lexus models have failed to capture the attention of Automobile's editors never ceases to amaze me. I - who once called the Toyota Camry the best car built in the United States - console myself with the notion that Toyota is simply too good to be great." That really sums it up - too good to be great.

Frankly, what I always tell people when they ask about reliability is literally this: it's 2006. All cars are reliable. Unreliability is a thing of the past (except possibly with Land Rovers). It's just not something to think about anymore.

 

[a6m5]

I stopped believing in the Toyota myth years ago. Just because it has a Toyota badge doesn't mean it's gold. You've got to take the cars on their own merit. Same goes for Honda... while I still have faith in any Honda engine that hasn't been drag-raced, their build quality is just about on par, personally, with anyone else's.

Around here, warranty repairs on domestic engines are routine. On most Japanese makes, it's not(maybe they break after the warranty's up, I don't know ). Now, this can be considered a myth too; Toyotas are respected by most mechanics wherever you go, including the dealer service shops of other makes. It's a pretty amazing thing, and you don't see this with any other brands. These people drive and work on cars all day. For me, that means something.

Frankly, what I always tell people when they ask about reliability is literally this: it's 2006. All cars are reliable. Unreliability is a thing of the past (except possibly with Land Rovers). It's just not something to think about anymore.

In general. If you work for a dealer though, you see them all.

 

[niky]

Depends on the car. There are quite a few Chinese cars out there that don't have check mark in the "reliability" box... or the "safety" box, for that matter.

The Camry? Yeah, it's probably too good to be great. Last time I rode in a new Camry, I enjoyed myself immensely, but never once did I think to myself: "I want this car".

 

[niky]

Around here, warranty repairs on domestic engines are routine. On most Japanese makes, it's not(maybe they break after the warranty's up, I don't know ). Now, this can be considered a myth too; Toyotas are respected by most mechanics wherever you go, including the dealer service shops of other makes. It's a pretty amazing thing, and you don't see this with any other brands. These people drive and work on cars all day. For me, that means something.

In general. If you work for a dealer though, you see them all.

Here, we've had Toyotas for a long time, and we've got some pretty heavy and destructive urban use cycles. As an indicator of how heavy? Our 1.6's and 2.0's only get 18-20 mpg urban, most of the time.... you don't want to know how bad it is for the average V8, and a lot of the early Expeditions here broke down from the heat stress.

I've seen all sorts of cars hold up to this stress, and I've seen cars break down. While Toyotas, as a rule, don't break down... I've seen quite a few that did. They're reliable, yes, but not bulletproof.

Like I said, each car on its own merit.

 

[a6m5]

I've seen all sorts of cars hold up to this stress, and I've seen cars break down. While Toyotas, as a rule, don't break down... I've seen quite a few that did. They're reliable, yes, but not bulletproof.

Like I said, each car on its own merit.

I do agree with that. Like Doug said about "this is 2006", most cars are built well. Some are more likely to break, some are less likely to, sounds about right to me.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

My opinion on this whole:

They'll have a dip, come back, and kick even more ass...and hopefully produce a new psorts or supercar 👍


It's so changing over there these days. Back in the '80's and '90's, nothing could touch a Toyota engine. THey looked crappy, exept for the Supra, interiour not that good but everyone knew you couldn't complain what's underneath the hood.


So, I think Toyota wants to try and change that imago to a luxury and powerful Toyota. They want to get on top of the world so fast that they forget about their '90's engines

 

[Pupik]

Is it time to merge with this thread with that thread?

Yes: Here. Here.

(Geez, did some of you get yelled at for asking about the 4 black used LM cars?)

 

[Poverty]

David E. Davis, Jr., the former editor of every single thing ever written, said this stunningly apt thing about Toyota: "The fact that other Toyota and Lexus models have failed to capture the attention of Automobile's editors never ceases to amaze me. I - who once called the Toyota Camry the best car built in the United States - console myself with the notion that Toyota is simply too good to be great." That really sums it up - too good to be great.

Frankly, what I always tell people when they ask about reliability is literally this: it's 2006. All cars are reliable. Unreliability is a thing of the past (except possibly with Land Rovers). It's just not something to think about anymore.

I would have to agree with the second paragraph, but not with the land rover bit, but replace it with italian cars.

My family has owned loads of cars over the years. Japanese, american, german, swedish and french.

And heres the thing, none of them EVER broke down, except one, our vauxhall vectra. BUT the vectra had a interesting history, and we never cared for it, or looked after it, like we did with all our other cars and so it was unreliable. All our other cars got service frequently, as the manufacturer suggested, at main dealers.

So ive come to the conclusion, if you drive your car with care, and always make sure it has enough oil etc, and the dealer mechanics are competent it will last mechanically. Obviously such things as electric failures are unavoidable if it comes screwed up straight from the factory.

 

[JCE]

ive come to the conclusion, if you drive your car with care, and always make sure it has enough oil etc, and the dealer mechanics are competent it will last mechanically. Obviously such things as electric failures are unavoidable if it comes screwed up straight from the factory.

This is my sentiment also. General maintenance is so very important...and a good portion of the people neglect it. And this is basically what M5 said, it's 2006 most to all new cars are reliable. It just isn't the 1980's anymore.