Trail Brake Heaven!!!

[Parnelli Bone]

So as many of you know...cars in GT4 understeer to no avail. It's somewhat realistic in some cases, but DAMN I miss some of the stunts I used to pull in earlier GTs, (and on good tires, too...not crappy N2's) how about you?

Case in point: trail-braking. For those of you who don't know what this is, let me try and explain. It's basically when you brake into a corner hard; instead of extreme understeer that forces you towards the outside of a turn and makes you let off the brakes early, your car will begin to slide in the direction of the turn...making it pivot inwards towards the inside, so that you're using the rear of your car to steer inwards under braking instead of via steering & gas alone.

I thought I would never get some trail-brake action in GT4, and I really miss it. Every time I try and get a power-slide going via brakes, all I usually get is understeer with an occasional half-baked pivot like I want.

Let me introduce you to my new trail-braking beauty!!! The '54 Chevrolet Corvette!!!





For those of you who haven't driven one, I highly recommend it. Brake into those turns late if you want to! On medium sport tires! On road tires, on N2s!! I've gotten some successful trail-brakes on some GT4 cars if I've mixed & matched the tires...but this is my first experience with all the same tires. All S2s All N3s, etc. And I can't seem to get enough!!


The '54 Corvette has an awesome ride...I'm really finding myself using my brakes as a fully-functional tool to sculpt my way thru turns in this car, instead of relying on brakes to slow in a more or less straight line like in the other 90% of GT4 autos I've driven. In my C1 Vette, I'm instead finding that in this car I can use the brakes to paint my way thru many corners (the tighter the better) the way a fine violin player can emote skillfully from his or her instrument.

So I wanna try some other cars that have this awesome braking quality? Any others I should know about??

 

[KiwiBoy]

May I recommend the Ruf RGT? RR engine makes trail braking very easy, but the moment the throttle is pressed, even very little, will cause the back to regain its grip and power out of the turn gracefully.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Get a Integra type r with race rubber on it and brake into a high speed corner. I ended up backwards in a wall first time I did that. Try it, it's that bad, really.

 

[Alfaholic]

The Alpine A310 is nice and easy to trail brake in slow corners, like in the tighter sections of Trial Mountain. Then again, the car manages well enough with just lift off oversteer (any tyres up to S2)...

Another one that responds well to light trailbraking is the Protomotors Spirra, on N2s is best, the car gets a bit more twitchy on N1s but they work too. Gentle braking while turning in will lock the front wheels on line. Pick up the throttle as soon as the front wheels are locked and you can rear wheel steer the car all the way around the bend. Brake too hard while turning, or get your entry speed too fast, and you'll get the normal GT4 understeer. Get it just right and you can feel the point where you need to come off the brakes and pick up the throttle. Very satisfying.

 

[thesuperfunk]

The Lancia Stratos is much the same ... immense fun when you've got to grips with it though 👍

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Thanks guys. I haven't tried any of the cars listed yet...there's many hundreds I haven't driven yet. But I'm glad you guys know what I'm talking about: the rush you get from dangerous cornering and then hammering the gas to steer out of a corner.

 

[PARAGON GT]

From the two that I raced tonight, the EVO's seem to show trail-brake tendency's.

I took out a T.M.E and a '96 evo and I about spun out on several occasions during the Evolution series.

 

[Loon]

Hmm, I've seem to misunderstand what trail braking meant. I always thought it was when you got on the brakes slightly to make the car rotate just a bit, because getting on the brakes hard results in understeer on most cars. Anyone else thought this?

 

[Perfect Balance]

Hmm, I've seem to misunderstand what trail braking meant. I always thought it was when you got on the brakes slightly to make the car rotate just a bit, because getting on the brakes hard results in understeer on most cars. Anyone else thought this?

You release the brakes as you turn in "proper" trail braking. A corner goes something like, Hard braking, no turning. Then, half turning, half braking. Then full turning, no braking. It just keeps weight on the front wheels and uses all of the grip the tire has to offer.

You go faster and don't let any grip go to waste.

EDIT: I read a book once, I don't recall what it was called. Possibly "Speed Secrets". It explained it very well. They basically said pretend you have a string tied from your steering wheel to your brake pedal, with a little slack in it. The slack represents your tire's grip. When you brake fully, you take up all the slack, or when you turn. If you release the brakes a little, it lets you use some of the slack for turning. You can't brake hard and turn hard because there is no slack in the string.

 

[Tornado]

So i wanna try some other cars that have this awesome braking quality? Any others i should know about??

The 1962 Skyline has similar unrealistically overpowered brakes, but the car is really too slow fully done up to make as good use of them as the Corvette does stock.

 

[Alfaholic]

Hmm, I've seem to misunderstand what trail braking meant. I always thought it was when you got on the brakes slightly to make the car rotate just a bit, because getting on the brakes hard results in understeer on most cars. Anyone else thought this?

Yes, hard braking while turning will nearly always cause understeer in GT4. Trail braking as I understand it simply means applying brakes while turning. Conventional driving techniques, and manuals like Roadcraft, always say brake in a straight line, then release the brakes, then start turning. Trail braking is when you continue to brake after turning in to the corner. Either braking from turn in point to apex, or part of the way there, or part of the way past, then accelerate, so there is little or no point of the cornering area where you are coasting.

Advantages are: 1) can brake later, 2) can resolve understeer on corner entry, 3) one way to start steering a car on the throttle, whether it's front or rear wheel drive. As mentioned, if you brake too hard while turning you will overwhelm the front tyres and induce understeer.

 

[CirclesCenter]

Integra Type R does something very similar. Let off the throttle and pitch it into the corner, brakes not so much. Try it, very satisfying.

 

[Philly]

I have a lot of fun with this in the M3 on the 'Ring. It happens on a variety of corners and is very easy to correct. Just hit the gas and maybe a flick of countersteer will set you back on course.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

ha! I knew this topic would create some confusion. Here's an official website/explanation.

http://virtualracersedge.com/trail_braking.htm

Trail braking (a.k.a. 'brake-turning', braking while turning toward the apex of a corner) is another learning curve for you to climb sooner or later. However, learn trail braking slowly; if you're used to road driving (where you're taught to finish braking before turning into a corner) then you might find it tricky to learn the extra delicacy demanded by trail braking. In PU, the trade-off between brake pressure and steering input is hard to judge when you can't feel the car turning and pitching through your body.

What is trail braking? In essence, it means continuing to brake after having turned in for a corner. The further you progress into the corner, the more you turn the steering wheel and the more pressure you release from the brake pedal. Typically, the procedure goes like this:

You are hurtling in a straight line toward a corner;
You apply the brakes - fully - while still traveling in a straight line;
At some point, you release a little pressure from the brakes and start to turn in;
As you bend into the corner and approach the throttle application point, you progressively release the rest of the pressure from the brake.
What's the point of it? Trail braking helps you rotate the car into a corner by controlling the transfer of weight onto the front tires, giving them more stick, and thus compensating for any understeering tendency the car would otherwise have.

The alternative is: do all of your braking in a straight line, then release the brakes entirely, then turn in. The trouble with this technique is that when you release the brakes, weight - and therefore stick - will be removed from the front tires, just when you need them to be loaded enough to turn the car into the corner. So - unless the car is set up to be driven like this - it will understeer away from the corner. This is typical behavior for 'street' (aka massively understeering) cars that have been adapted for racing.

On the other hand, a 'proper' race car will probably oversteer if you don't trail brake. If you turn into a corner with your feet off both brake and throttle, the front tires will have all their traction budget available for turning while the back wheels will be doing some (engine) braking. Net result: oversteer. Application of the brakes settles down the oversteer by substituting a proportionately balanced loss of steering traction (because the brakes are biased towards the front). In fact, you use the brake pressure to control the rate at which the car rotates into the corner.

How much trail braking you do at a particular corner - i.e. what percentage of the corner is taken under braking - depends on the angle of the corner. For a 60° corner, you'd typically only trail for a few percent of the corner, for a 90° corner, you'd typically trail brake for maybe 25% of the corner, and for a bigger corner, you could do it for up to 50% of the corner. You are aiming to trail off the brakes until they are released completely at or before the throttle application point (which typically occurs somewhere before the geometric apex).

Another way of looking at trail braking is: what you're doing is braking so late for a corner, that you're never going to make it if you carry on in a straight line. In order just to stay on the track, you have to release a little of the pressure on the brake pedal and bend the car into the corner, just to give yourself a little more road - enough extra road to finish the braking. If you find that you've finished braking before the throttle application point in these corners, then you didn't brake late enough. (BTW, if the car won't turn in when you release a little brake pressure, then you probably need to reduce the front brake bias; likewise, if the car swaps ends when you turn in, add some front brake bias).

Just about every corner you brake for demands some amount of trail braking.

Alison Hine: “[trail braking] takes a good setup, a deft touch on brake, throttle and steering, and a lot of practice. I use a setup with brake balance fairly far forward (usually 58 to 60% on the front wheels) and trail brake to rotate the car. The rate and smoothness with which you trail off the brake (i.e. smoothly release brake pressure as you turn the car into the corner) is critical, and is probably one of the most difficult and subtle things to learn in GPL.”

Tim Sharp: “Some drivers brake hard enough in a straight line to slow their car down for the corner, but then they totally release the brake or go to the throttle before they get to the apex of the corner. They transfer the weight off the front tires and onto the rear wheels just when they need their steering the most. This can cause the car to go into an understeer skid. In order to keep the weight on the front and the tire contact patches expanded for optimal steering, you should use trail braking. Trail braking is simply continuing to apply a diminishing percentage of braking until you complete your turn into the apex. The transition from trail braking to the apex and the application of throttle to the track-out point should be smooth and seamless so as not to upset the chassis.”

Ricardo Nunnini: Never take your foot completely off the brake until you reach the throttle application point. From the turn in point to the throttle application point, use a relatively constant amount of brake pressure and small dabs of throttle to balance the car. Just before you get to the throttle application point, release the car from the corner by pressing the throttle and then - afterwards - fully releasing the brake.

 

[Cruiserdude]

Thanks guys. I haven't tried any of the cars listed yet...there's many hundreds i haven't driven yet. But i'm glad you guys know what i'm talking about: the rush you get from dangerous cornering and then hammering the gas to steer out of a corner.

Oh, I do! Ever tried it in real life? What a thrill! I'll tell you though, only do it in a controlled environment, and please don't try it in an FF or MR car. It took awhile to get right, but I finally got it down in an S2000, and once I did, damn does it rock! Shame then that I can do it in a real S2000 but not in its digital equivalent...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Oh, I do! Ever tried it in real life? What a thrill! I'll tell you though, only do it in a controlled environment, and please don't try it in an FF or MR car. It took awhile to get right, but I finally got it down in an S2000, and once I did, damn does it rock! Shame then that I can do it in a real S2000 but not in its digital equivalent...

No. Never had the pleasure of trail-braking in real-life. It's been years since I've driven a real car fast....and then I would never consider trail-braking on a public road...not in Maryland, anyways.

 

[Cruiserdude]

No. Never had the pleasure of trail-braking in real-life. It's been years since i've driven a real car fast....and then i would never consider trail-braking on a public road...not in Maryland, anyways.

Ah, well, if you ever have the chance to make it out to a track event or auto-x, jump on it! But yes, to reiterate for everyone' sake,
DO NOT ATTEMPT TRAILBRAKING ON PUBLIC ROADS
Save it for a controlled environment, such as a racetrack, and make sure you have some idea of what you're actually doing.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Oh, I do! Ever tried it in real life? What a thrill! I'll tell you though, only do it in a controlled environment, and please don't try it in an FF or MR car. It took awhile to get right, but I finally got it down in an S2000, and once I did, damn does it rock! Shame then that I can do it in a real S2000 but not in its digital equivalent...

Trail braking is virtually the fastest way to drive a FF car. I do it in my Civic all the time, I rarely understeer now.

 

[Cruiserdude]

Trail braking is virtually the fastest way to drive a FF car. I do it in my Civic all the time, I rarely understeer now.

Well it depends on how you go about your trail braking. Believe it or not, there's two different kinds. Dragging the brakes a bit into the turn is great, as it shifts weight to the front and increases front grip, allowing you to maintain steering control and avoid understeer. I do this in my Prelude SH all the time with great results.

But actual trail-braking in the true sense of the word is far harder to master, and typically only used by racing drivers. In this case, you are turning and braking at the same time, attempting to actually get the car to rotate with the brake pedal, which is much harder to master. Rather than merely entering the turn w/ far more balance, you are actually inducing oversteer with the brake pedal. I recommend against trying this in an FF or MR car as they are far more prone to snap oversteer, which is almost impossible to control. While it can be done in these cars, one must realize that this latter method actually induces the car to rotate and actually enter a powerslide before the application of power itself. This means that once you have achieved your desired slip angle and are at the apex of the corner, you must smoothly transition to the throttle to continue to control the angle of your slide, and eventually power out. Being that FF cars cannot control a powerslide in the traditional sense, this latter technique cannot truly be executed properly in an FF layout.

I wish the distinction were clearer, but both of these techniques are described as trail-braking, and the latter is honestly just taking the common form a step further. Even so, the first technique is great and helps FF and other cars alike. The second is extremely difficult to master and should be left on the track, regardless of your powertrain.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well it depends on how you go about your trail braking. Believe it or not, there's two different kinds. Dragging the brakes a bit into the turn is great, as it shifts weight to the front and increases front grip, allowing you to maintain steering control and avoid understeer. I do this in my Prelude SH all the time with great results.

But actual trail-braking in the true sense of the word is far harder to master, and typically only used by racing drivers. In this case, you are turning and braking at the same time, attempting to actually get the car to rotate with the brake pedal, which is much harder to master. Rather than merely entering the turn w/ far more balance, you are actually inducing oversteer with the brake pedal. I recommend against trying this in an FF or MR car as they are far more prone to snap oversteer, which is almost impossible to control. While it can be done in these cars, one must realize that this latter method actually induces the car to rotate and actually enter a powerslide before the application of power itself. This means that once you have achieved your desired slip angle and are at the apex of the corner, you must smoothly transition to the throttle to continue to control the angle of your slide, and eventually power out. Being that FF cars cannot control a powerslide in the traditional sense, this latter technique cannot truly be executed properly in an FF layout.

I wish the distinction were clearer, but both of these techniques are described as trail-braking, and the latter is honestly just taking the common form a step further. Even so, the first technique is great and helps FF and other cars alike. The second is extremely difficult to master and should be left on the track, regardless of your powertrain.

I use both techniques. Sometimes I just use it turn maintain grip on the front, dragging the brakes into corners like you said, but on the more tight corners, I use "real" trail braking to get the back to slide out a bit and turn the car. It's cool seeing someone else do it, because the rear inside wheel comes off the ground and locks up.