Transitioning from real world to sim world

[dabz343]

I don't know how many of you here are transitioning from real world physics to game physics like me, but it has been a challenge to say the least. I started with GT6/now GTS, and with the new physics/tire model update 1.23, I personally find it better suited to my real world driving style. Thus I'm venturing into the tuning aspects in search of speed/fun/immersion/knowledge.

So I share this vid at Yamagiya, seeking input from those that have countless miles on racing sims to seek advice on how to improve my setup and inputs.



Lap Time - 1.37.279
Lambo Huracan Gr4
BoP ON
Penalties ON Weak
RSS
Stock tune except:

• brake balance +4 (rear)
• ARB 7/8
• full aero
• rear biased diff
• custom gears (thx @praiano63)

 

[praiano63]

I don't know how many of you here are transitioning from real world physics to game physics like me, but it has been a challenge to say the least. I started with GT6/now GTS, and with the new physics/tire model update 1.23, I personally find it better suited to my real world driving style. Thus I'm venturing into the tuning aspects in search of speed/fun/immersion/knowledge.

So I share this vid at Yamagiya, seeking input from those that have countless miles on racing sims to seek advice on how to improve my setup and inputs.



Lap Time - 1.37.279
Lambo Huracan Gr4
BoP ON
Penalties ON Weak
RSS
Stock tune except:

• brake balance +4 (rear)
• ARB 7/8
• full aero
• rear biased diff
• custom gears (thx @praiano63)

Nice laps and nice lines , in my opinion RSS is way too much grip to feel the car moving around yours inputs. The new tire model is really sensitive to all of them , the time is over where you needed to slam the break pedal , turn your wheel and wait for the car coming around passively.
Need to be really smooth , this is a learning again period for me . Racing hard or medium are more reactive and much more alive in my opinion.
Good luck.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

If you are looking for your practice to help you down the road in online sport mode races run the car with stock tune and BoP turned on and use RH tires as that is how the majority of online races are configured.

Also practice custom races with tire wear and fuel usage on at variable x amounts to learn how your handling and car limits will change as the tires wear and the fuel load lightens up.

I like the new tire model a lot better as far as realism in how the car reacts to a drivers inputs.

 

[cleanLX]

Agreed with the 2 gentlemen prior myself.
RSS is... well... other-worldly, so, makes it hard to relate the lap times... much less what ever it is you have done to the LSD
The car you are driving is severely lacking balance.
It scrubs the hell out of the fronts while the rears are stuck in a set of tracks... With no tire wear being applied in the test, the balance is totally jacked, the fronts are likely done after 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap... and the new tire model in my opinion has removed the requirement for heavy rear basis on brake balance... that's a general statement, I've not test this car... so, grain of salt..
A proper tune could fix all of this, but it's irrelevant to sport mode...
And driving could fix all of this, but, until the car is returned to sport mode compatibility it's impossible to comment.

 

[dabz343]

the time is over where you needed to slam the break pedal , turn your wheel and wait for the car coming around passively.
Need to be really smooth , this is a learning again period for me

Your comments remind me of my experience with GT6. I was not prepared for what it took to have speed in the sim environment. Probably didn't help that my expectation were high, having purchased my 1st wheel, and my inputs were too conservative. Real world taught me, you don't upset the car.

Now with some miles under my belt, I've adjusted somewhat, to the lack of peripheral vision and the void of physical G forces. I still find myself sometimes leaning from side to side in my seat through turns as if my mind/body just will not let go of what it knows. I wonder if the guys transitioning from sim to real world face similar challenges?

If you are looking for your practice to help you down the road in online sport mode races run the car with stock tune and BoP turned on and use RH tires as that is how the majority of online races are configured.

At some point I'd like to dedicate more time to Sport Mode, but currently, I'm enjoying the diverse offline/lobby elements and mostly the people I get to meet. It's like the real world. There are nuances to sim racing and it takes time to develop you IQ...after all, it is a unique culture. But you are absolutely right, if you are intent on pursuing competition, then you'd better follow protocol.

Also practice custom races with tire wear and fuel usage on at variable x amounts to learn how your handling and car limits will change as the tires wear and the fuel load lightens up.

Absolutely, and has been one of the most educational ways to get grounded in sim physics. One of my favorites is to use the Gr4 Cayman against Gr3 AI on Professional with RM tires/4x and fuel at 5x. Slow and steady burn, usually more than 30 laps. This equates to real world immersion. I just can't adjust to the 5 lap sprints, again something is etched in my brain. Wish I could have some brake fade...not to mention dynamic weather...

 

[praiano63]

There are some GT players that would be able to speak about this transition very well. One of them is Igor Fraga.
This kid is so fast , real or SIM.

 

[dabz343]

There are some GT players that would be able to speak about this transition very well. One of them is Igor Fraga.
This kid is so fast , real or SIM.

To have had the opportunity to start racing at a very early age, in both Real/Sim racing, I suspect he possesses a unique perspective. Unlike me, Igor has no/little problem flawlessly blending the two worlds seamlessly - this is just my assertion of course. But because he is able to find speed in contrasting environments, I suspect he is able to leverage whatever his surrounding context provides and adapt quickly to find speed. An inspiring young talent, I hope he is surrounding himself with equally talented individuals to enhance possibilities.

As an example of what I struggle with at times...it took me nearly 100 hours of gameplay to realize that my seating position was too close. I had adopted the ergonomic measurements from the real world to take advantage of my muscle memory (a rational approach), but there is no pitch/roll/yaw in sims. My legs were cramped, and while I had leverage, I severely lacked finesse. Especially with the plastic pedals. Which led me to pursue hardware,...but that's a whole another story...

Igor represents the new breed. I wish I could go back and learn Karting for the first time, in both realities simultaneously.

 

[Shottah072]

I still find myself sometimes leaning from side to side in my seat through turns as if my mind/body just will not let go of what it knows.

Haha i do that as well though i've never raced in real life apart from some rental karts at some local tracks.

 

[twitcher]

I haven’t had GTS too long, and I’ve never been all that fast - your lap looks pretty good, not much I can comment on.

I don’t know your main goal in switching to sims, but if you want to get into actual racing, the sim will offer you endless opportunities for wheel to wheel racing, something you maybe don’t get with driving in real life.

So Id start practicing racecraft. Everything from practicing overtaking, defending (including braking deep into corners to prevent dive bombs). Practice things like conserving tires while still being fast. Learn how to conserve fuel while still being fast. If you can learn to lift-and-coast like the pros and still keep your lap times up, you can make huge gains in Race C.

The other part is learning the “video game” aspects. Most of this would revolve around collision physics. Learn how the cars feel and behave during and after contact. They won’t behave the way one would expect it real life, but it’s just part of the game, and learning to ride out contact and save the car from spinning can save you dozens of seconds.


One thing specific to GTS, the cars have “hit boxes” which are large than the car themselves. This means that if you try to narrowly miss someone’s rear bumper by an inch or so, even though it looks like there is air between the cars, the game with treat it like a square on rear-end collision.

Learn the penalty system too. It’s decent, but has a lot of quirks. The point of learning it isn’t necessarily to exploit every situation, but more to know what is, and what is not allowed, to give you insight into what others may or may not attempt.

Edit: forgot to mention. Try drifting, if you haven’t. I’m not sure what the “correct” setup is in GTS, but back in GT5 and GT6, we were using comfort hard tires. It’s like driving on ice at first, but it really teaches you how to control oversteer in the game. Even if it’s not completely realistic, it teaches you how this game models oversteer, which can really help save your bacon in moments where you are racing and lose the car, especially from contact. I’d take it a step further and try to learn how to tandem drift. In that environment, you get constant practice at what the car feels like while sliding and making gentle/heavy contact. These skills won’t necessarily improve your qualifying times, but they can save your race in T1.

 

[dabz343]

I don’t know your main goal in switching to sims, but if you want to get into actual racing, the sim will offer you endless opportunities for wheel to wheel racing, something you maybe don’t get with driving in real life.

Main goal with sims is to have easy access to track time fun with close friends. Motorsports is costly, not to mention very time consuming. The typical track outing for me usually involves weeks/months of planning and I simply don't have the luxury of time. I still make it out once or twice a year and if the quality of sims continue, I may just switch over completely...but I'll always keep at least one toy in my garage.

The other part is learning the “video game” aspects. Most of this would revolve around collision physics. Learn how the cars feel and behave during and after contact. They won’t behave the way one would expect it real life, but it’s just part of the game, and learning to ride out contact and save the car from spinning can save you dozens of seconds.

One thing specific to GTS, the cars have “hit boxes” which are large than the car themselves. This means that if you try to narrowly miss someone’s rear bumper by an inch or so, even though it looks like there is air between the cars, the game with treat it like a square on rear-end collision.

Learn the penalty system too. It’s decent, but has a lot of quirks. The point of learning it isn’t necessarily to exploit every situation, but more to know what is, and what is not allowed, to give you insight into what others may or may not attempt.

Great insights, particularly the one about "hit boxes". When I switched my view from bumper to hood, I was able to manage this much better. This view also helped me gain a better sense of chassis movement which is starting to augment my brain/ear canal's need for physical forces.

I wish PD would lock down some basics in the penalty system so we can find a baseline. I tried keeping up with all the variations/updates, but finally decided to park the issue and give them the time/data they need to ground some much needed principles. Until then, I always try to leave a little room.

 

[DC2_Evan]

My biggest struggle in all these sims versus a track day is not being able to feel the car in the seat. To me, the wheel isn't giving me enough information on what the car is doing. With the latest tire model, it does help quite a bit, but I'm still missing the little bit of info to compensate for something before the vehicle comes out from under me. It's annoying, but at the same time I know I can only get so close without taking my truck, trailer, and car over to Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course

 

[VFOURMAX1]

To me, the wheel isn't giving me enough information on what the car is doing. With the latest tire model, it does help quite a bit, but I'm still missing the little bit of info to compensate for something before the vehicle comes out from under me.

What I find is that the "tire squeal" pitch and level is a very important indicator of where you are at in the tire grip range. I do not want any music playing as your hearing the cues the games gives you is very important.

This along with wheel feedback helps.

 

[DC2_Evan]

What I find is that the "tire squeal" pitch and level is a very important indicator of where you are at in the tire grip range. I do not want any music playing as your hearing the cues the games gives you is very important.

This along with wheel feedback helps.

It is helpful, I will admit that. My track car is very much a momentum car, so I'm always pushing the tires as far as they will allow. I know I'm not the fastest person out there, and I'm not to competitive with games so it's not to big of a deal to be off some.

 

[twitcher]

What I find is that the "tire squeal" pitch and level is a very important indicator of where you are at in the tire grip range. I do not want any music playing as your hearing the cues the games gives you is very important.

This along with wheel feedback helps.

This is a great point.

If possible, turn up the tire volume. It gives you loads of info, but it’s really subtle, so it takes a while for you to tune into it.

There’s actually distinct different squeals, depending on what is happening. There’s a kind of high pitch squeal when the front is understeering, and you can hear it chattering a bit. When you’re on the limit of grip, using the tire to its max, but not understeering, there’s kind of a tearing sounding squeal.


I don’t know how it is for you folks on a wheel, but on a controller there’s also a whole variety of vibrations that can give you info as to what’s going on with grip levels.

Edit: does GTS support rigs that use a “butt kicker”?

 

[dabz343]

My biggest struggle in all these sims versus a track day is not being able to feel the car in the seat. To me, the wheel isn't giving me enough information on what the car is doing.

I'm in the same boat. And this is my biggest struggle along with not having peripheral vision. I'd love to find a way to maximize my circle of grip, but how does a FFB wheel alone supplement for the lack of inertia? I even went as far as to test drive one of the most expensive motion rigs at CXC Simulations. Beautifully built and purposefully engineered toys, but the closer I got to "realism" the more it felt like a simulation. The movements were unnatural, synthetic and while the forces were genuinely in sync, there was a clear lack of refinement in creating a fluid momentum.

What I find is that the "tire squeal" pitch and level is a very important indicator of where you are at in the tire grip range.

There’s actually distinct different squeals, depending on what is happening. There’s a kind of high pitch squeal when the front is understeering, and you can hear it chattering a bit. When you’re on the limit of grip, using the tire to its max, but not understeering, there’s kind of a tearing sounding squeal.

You two are onto something. I used your insight to tune today and it produced great results. The tire squeals indeed produce varying pitches, and combined with the hood view, I was able to hone into a setup that enhanced my driving style. I am going to invest more time to deconstruct how audible cues may be leveraged to understand car dynamics...perhaps I should invest in a good pair of headphones.

 

[DC2_Evan]

I do use the tire squeals quite a bit, and they are helpful but it's not always quite enough

 

[cleanLX]

@DC2_Evan ...1998? 1.8L w/ 195@8400

 

[DC2_Evan]

@DC2_Evan ...1998? 1.8L w/ 195@8400

96 GSR, B18C1. 180 hp wherever Honda gets those stats from, I'm assuming its crank, maybe flywheel. Redline is 8000, fuel cutoff is like 8200 I think. I just do track days, so I can do whatever I want to the car. I need to get a mild tune on race gas and raise redline to like 9k. I hit it all the time as is lol

 

[golfer07840]

There are some GT players that would be able to speak about this transition very well. One of them is Igor Fraga.
This kid is so fast , real or SIM.

Newbie question.. what type of race is this? Obviously not F1 .. Is this Indy?

 

[praiano63]

Newbie question.. what type of race is this? Obviously not F1 .. Is this Indy?

USF 2000 Serie.
https://www.usf2000.com/schedule

 

[golfer07840]

USF 2000 Serie.
https://www.usf2000.com/schedule

Thanks for this. Looks like a Indy Car developmental league of sorts.

Interesting. I like those circuits too.

 

[twitcher]

Thanks for this. Looks like a Indy Car developmental league of sorts.

Interesting. I like those circuits too.

It’s one of the junior feeder series for IndyCar. Pro Mazda, USF2000, and Indylights all follow the IndyCar schedule as it tours around North America.

I agree as well, the circuit at Exhibition Place in Toronto is a fantastic street circuit, very under rated.

 

[golfer07840]

It’s one of the junior feeder series for IndyCar. Pro Mazda, USF2000, and Indylights all follow the IndyCar schedule as it tours around North America.

I agree as well, the circuit at Exhibition Place in Toronto is a fantastic street circuit, very under rated.

What are the odds we'd ever get 1 of these for GTS?

hahaha.. I can't even type that with a straight face.

 

[cleanLX]

96 GSR, B18C1. 180 hp wherever Honda gets those stats from, I'm assuming its crank, maybe flywheel. Redline is 8000, fuel cutoff is like 8200 I think. I just do track days, so I can do whatever I want to the car. I need to get a mild tune on race gas and raise redline to like 9k. I hit it all the time as is lol

No crap, I test drove one of those new back in the day, black on black 5spd, (could not find a TypeR, which didn't matter as I could not afford one anyways)... awesome car... really, really, liked those... ended up with a 5.0mustang (1 owner 3k miles) that I still have. 2 very different cars... happy with my decision, but always wished I could have had both... 9000rpm, man that has gotta sound sweet.
/derailment off

 

[vvise]

Newbie question.. what type of race is this? Obviously not F1 .. Is this Indy?

They raced Indy on that same circuit later that afternoon

 

[DC2_Evan]

No crap, I test drove one of those new back in the day, black on black 5spd, (could not find a TypeR, which didn't matter as I could not afford one anyways)... awesome car... really, really, liked those... ended up with a 5.0mustang (1 owner 3k miles) that I still have. 2 very different cars... happy with my decision, but always wished I could have had both... 9000rpm, man that has gotta sound sweet.
/derailment off

/derailment mostly off
I got mine for a steal. Full on SCCA race car, 20 foot trailer, 2 extra sets of wheel, extra springs for the coil overs, and spare tow hooks for 4500. It was the steal of the century

/derailment def. over lol

 

[dabz343]

I decided to venture into Sport Mode today to find out how the new 1.23 physics change felt under Bop/Stock tune/tire & fuel wear. I was keen on experiencing if this update was more favorable to my real world driving style...I was lucky to join a lobby with some very fast drivers at Dragon Trail, and wow, these guys are at another level. Thank you for allowing me to observe and learn.

Here is a replay of one of my best laps, followed by an alien's lap. The comparison shed much light on my inputs, mainly that I drive like an old man! I was getting a bit of a tow, so my time realistically is a few tenths off, and my focus was to not overdrive the car. We were both using the Gr4 Viper and one glaring difference is how we differed in gear selection. But perhaps some of you will be able to extract less obvious details that I must ultimately learn.

Edit - footage is from a practice session for the 8.15 FIA Mfr at Seaside.

 

[azrilnazli]

The easiest transition from real car to sim

1. Correct FOV, Use 40 inch TV and sit 650mm from the center
2. Cockpit view and disable HUD
3. Correct seating position ( GT style with tilted steering wheel )
4. GT style pedal will be super expensive ( Fanatec V3 inverted ), but a G29 pedal also can do a great job if tilted properly, 90 degree for me with 45 degree angle ramp.

 

[dabz343]

The easiest transition from real car to sim

1. Correct FOV, Use 40 inch TV and sit 650mm from the center
2. Cockpit view and disable HUD
3. Correct seating position ( GT style with tilted steering wheel )
4. GT style pedal will be super expensive ( Fanatec V3 inverted ), but a G29 pedal also can do a great job if tilted properly, 90 degree for me with 45 degree angle ramp.

 

[Venster]

You were plenty fast enough in the lobby I was in last night at DT , you undercut me on fuel and you’ve got good pace.