Tuning up my 4WD wagon

  • Thread starter Der Alta
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Der Alta

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DerAlta
Voila! New thread. As continued for this thread Tuning LSD on 4WD cars

One explanation on the negative toe vs. positive toe is that my Zenith TV sucks. The contrast is so bad, that I can't tell the difference between the + and - Symbols on the car. So, I always go with the numerical value. Also PD's description "Marquee" blows. This is one thing that aggravates me. Why not show it in text on the side? But I digress..

Yes, I have toe'd out the rear in effect to enhance the rapid turn-in, and the Over steer hasn't been a problem. Then again, I haven't run too many cars over 400hp (Since I've been doing extensive tuning). I'll change the settings tonight and see what I come up with...

By all means PM me the settings. As my wife can atest, I'm always willing to try new things. Or better yet, load them in these here new thread, and we can all compare. I've been shown in the past that My settings can be a bit odd.

Thanks
AO


Originally posted by Der Alta
And the story goes....

this is what I did last night after following all the advice I had at 5:30pm. Sukerkin, I'll address your thoughts at the end of the post, as I still have to race Deep Forest tonight.

Total mods:
Racing Transmission, Brakes and lightweight 1. also Full suspension, Brake balance controller, Full LSD, Triple Clutch, Light weight Flywheel, Stage 2 turbo, racing intercooler, T2 Tires, and lightweight 2. For a total of 409 Hp. I don't usually note the weight of the car, so I don't have that handy.

Settings:
Springs: 9.5/10.5
Ride Height: 102/102 (bottomed out)
Bound/Rebound = 6 (all)
Camber: 3.4/1.0
Toe: 0.0/-1.0
Stabilizers: 3/3
Brakes: 14/19
LSD (F): 5/5/10
LSD (R): 30/40/10
Auto Set gears: Level 27
Final Drive: 4.610
ASM = 0; TCS = 0
VCD: 35%

This set up gave me the win. The car felt very stable, although it could have used a higher LSD on the front. Instead I may take Sukerkin's thoughts to mind on this one.

Results:
S4: + 1.882 (pitted on lap 7)
Skyline (R34): + 2.894 ( pitted on lap 8)
Lancer Evo VI: + 21.666 pitted on lap 6
3000 GT VR-4: 32.581 pitted on lap 6
Celica GT4: 36.804 pitted on lap 5

Best lap: 1’28.107
Total time: 15’16.099

This was a very close race. Including the S4 bumping me in the first hairpin in the last lap. Once tires warmed up, the lead cars were very well matched. I was able to keep very close to the pace of the lead cars, but tended to loose time on the straights. Usually a tenth of a second. I did note that I could take the first and last hairpin, as well as the Corksrew faster than the AI could. That was a positive note.

Sukerkin:
I think I hit nearly all of your points in the setting changes that I did make. I always have about -0.5 or -1.0 on the rear toe. You may have miss read the first post. I did a test run on Deep Forest last night, and can keep with the field once my tires have warmed up, but by then I'm usually 8 seconds down from first place. So...tonight I'll try adjusting ride height, lessening the front camber, tune the stabilizers and set the bound rebound at 4/5 and 5/7 for the rear.

Yes, this thread has come way off topic, but it delves into the subtleties of 4WD tuning and what can affect it beyond the LSD.

A wee bit windbaggy myself...

AO



Originally posted by Sukerkin
Hi again Ao

If I'm reading this right the mods on your Wagon don't include Chip, Exhaust, Port Polish or Engine Balance, so I didn't use them whilst having a bit of a play with the settings.

I only tweaked with it for about an hour so my conclusions aren't solid and although the settings I ended up with don't resemble yours, the times around 'Seca are about the same. Another example of the fact that there is no such thing as a perfect set-up in GT3, only one which suits the driver!

I wont clutter up this thread with exactly what my settings were (if you'd like to see them I'll PM them to you).

One comment - as far as I know, negative numbers for toe in GT3 mean toe-out and positive ones toe-in. My own experience gels with this and a 'stock' toe adjustment for me is -5 Front and +10 Rear.

I'm assuming you've toe'd out the rear as a deliberate ploy to encourage rapid turn-in and don't find the augemented power-on oversteer a problem?

I think for any further discussions on this we should start a new thread about dialing in the Wagon (unless we focus on the LSD aspects of the tuning). What do you think?
 
Last night I managed to beat down Deep forest and walk away with the win.

I did adjust the settings to this:

Settings:
Springs: 7.5/8.5
Ride Height: 105/110
Bound/Rebound = 4/5 Front and 5/7 Rear
Camber: 3.0/1.0
Toe: 0.0/-1.0
Stabilizers: 3/3
Brakes: 14/19
LSD (F): 5/10/10
LSD (R): 30/40/10
Auto Set gears: Level 26
Final Drive: 4.610
ASM = 0; TCS = 0
VCD: 35%

Results:
Skyline R34: + 5.324
Lancer Evo VI: + 40.248
Impreza WRX: + 41.294
Skyline R32: + 45.268
S4: + 46.536

Best lap was a 1’20.000 (Hmm…)
Total time: 20’58.332

Everybody pitted on lap 6 and 12, except for me, I picked lap 9. This dropped me from the lead which I had gained in lap 6. It’s funny, in one lap (lap 5) I managed to move from last place to second place. Then when the R34 Skyline pitted, I was able to gain the lead. In lap 9, I pitted and handed the lead back to the R34 Skyline. He pitted on lap 12, and I took the lead, holding it until the finish line.

In my settings, I noticed power understeer when near high revs on the engine. Taking the back straight corner in and corner out, I was able to hold a much better line in 5th gear than 4th gear. I think If I had set my Rear LSD lower, that would have helped alleviate the problem.

Next up is the Boxer series. After running a few test laps, I'll have to buy all the mods to keep competitive with the Ruf’s in the field.

And again twek the settings to deal with the additional HP If I recall correctly, it should be 492hp.

Sukerkin: Do you have some helpful insights on adjusting the settings to compensate for the extra power? How about others?

AO
 
Hi AO

First here're the rough 'n' ready settings I came up with for 'Seca:

Settings:

Springs: 11.4/10.8
Ride Height: 105/105
Bound/Rebound = 5/6 Front and 4/7 Rear
Camber: 3.0/1.6
Toe: -1.0/+0.5
Stabilizers: 4/4
Brakes: 12/10
LSD (F): 8/18/16
LSD (R): 21/46/20
Auto Set gears: Level 28
Final Drive: 4.288
ASM = 0; TCS = 0
VCD: 26%


To set the box I used 3.498 @ 28 then re-adjusted the Final to 4.288. This gave me revs just touching the redline at the end of the downhill start/finish straight. You'll notice that these settings don't include the augmented ride height or rear biased spring rates as I found these gave me too much oversteer braking into corners.

Acceleration out of corners using my ride height and springs suggestions was great but I have a psychological aversion to sliding in corners (from RL experiences on two wheels (in fact that should probably be physical aversion given the amount of titanium holding my arm togther!)) so I went to a more FR style set-up.

The only problem that I found with the above was that the moment you choose to lay the power down was very critical (a definite indication that I hadn't got the car balanced quite right). If you went for the gun a fraction too soon then she understeered a fraz too much (she'd make the turns alright but she felt tight on the way out).

Your settings for the Forest look good. You've softened the springs to cope with the rough, undulating surface and, most importantly have made an effort to match the dampers to them. That's a vital point often overlooked.

When it comes to adding power to a car and aiming to avoid power-on oversteer, there're a fair number of things you can try.

The primary one is throttle modulation. The drivers input at the controller becomes logarithmically more important the more the HP goes up. Choosing your point of acceleration and gentle application of the throttle work wonders in quelling oversteer (until I mastered this I used to run TCS up at 6's and 7's for things like the Speed 12 - the shame of it!). The old adage about exiting as straight as you can is very true.

The next is gear box values and the choice of gear for corner exit. The less direct torque you feed into the tyres exiting a sharp corner the better basically. For although torque is what gives you low-end acceleration, too much torque will just get wasted shredding your tyres rather than pushing you forward.

Increasing rear camber (up to a point) will enable more grip (and thus less oversteer) in powering out of corners but beware of the fact that it can also cause entry understeer if the rear is outgripping the front even under braking.

Front springs stiffer than the rear and front stabiliser stiffer than the rear are also both good ways of quelling oversteer. Again though, caution is required when adjusting the springs as they can totally destroy your cars overall balance if set incorrectly. Plus, if you alter the springs then you will more than likely have to reset the whole suspension to match.

The LSD tweaks covered so well by Oosaka (may have spelt that wrongly!) are a vital part of the process of handling power but they cannot overcome a chassis setup that promotes oversteer.

Sending more power to the front through the VCD may also help but can just bring you back to the original problem of exit understeer.

The dampers again can be very useful in this matter. Setting them up for less oversteer in the final phases of a corner is almost mandatory for high HP cars. Decreasing the Front Rebound and increasing the Rear Bound is probably the right way to go for this.

Finally, toeing out the front and toeing in the rear is capable of producing very marked success in dealing with high horse power cars oversteer problems on corner exit. I almost always use values around -0.5/+1.0 (sometimes even +1.5).

As you can tell from the above, there's a lot of compromise involved in setting up a cars suspension and it's extemely important to remember that what works for one style of driving is likely to be utterly wrong for another!

Hope some of this directionless meandering is of assistance :D

MAB
 
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