Turbo vs. Naturally Aspirated

[Nightmage82]

Ok i searched for this in the forum before so dont flame me if its been asked but since there are both people in japan developing 1000bhp serious racing cars with turbos on them and there are guys here in europe and in the states making 500-900bhp naturally aspirated racing cars im just wondering why do the people use what they use? surely a turbo introduces complexity into the engine. formula one doesn't use turbos, why not? are turbos just more economical on fuel or do you stand to gain sufficiently from the 1000+ hp on a track?

(note i am not asking about the difference between turbo and NA)

 

[halfracedrift]

NA has advantages that Turbo doesn't...
sure.. Turbo can add a whole HEAP of horsepower, but NA is performs alot better in corners. Turbos accelerating in corners are hard, because there's "turbo lag"

 

[Sage]

Well, with turbos, you have to wait for the boost, and while "turbo lag" has been nicely curved down in the past couple car generations, it's still there.

There are probably other reasons, but someone else can think of them.

[edit]: Darn it, treed by halfracedrift!

 

[Shinez]

That would probably be the main reason right there. The N/A Power curve is alot better balanced in most cases...Yes you can tune a turbo to respond very quickly...But it will never be instantanious

 

[Frustrated Palm]

Plus you dont have to worry alot about the strength of the parts some parts. F1 engines are the fastest running engines in the world and you dont want too many things to worry about. With an NA engine you dont have to worry about supporting parts that come along with a powerful turbo/supercharger...

 

[halfracedrift]

Well.. there ARE places where a Turbo car can be better than a NA car... think high.. WAAAAY up high, where the air is thin... now .. the turbo will shove alot more air into the engine, giving it the power it would have *or close to* when it's on sea level. The drawback of using an NA engine on high mountains is the thin air..All engines become weaker as they ascend higher. Turbos beat NAs there..

 

[Frustrated Palm]

Yeah but if your in the mountains the engine loses strength (like you said) which means less air getting to the engine for the engine to push out the exhause which is what the Turbo needs. Superchargers are better there ...

 

[advanR]

f1 cars dont use turbos anymore because it probably wouldnt be the safest thing for drivers to be racing cars with 2000hp.

I prefer NA. If ever a no lag turbo is produced, I will consider switching my preference.

 

[halfracedrift]

Yes but we are comparing NA vs Turbo are we not? =p!
yeah i agree, superchargers are better in mountains

 

[advanR]

Originally posted by Frustrated Palm
Yeah but if your in the mountains the engine loses strength (like you said) which means less air getting to the engine for the engine to push out the exhause which is what the Turbo needs. Superchargers are better there ...

I dont know about that. I would think that there is always enough pressure in the exhaust to spool a turbo. In that case a turbo and supercharger would be equally disadvantaged.

 

[RazorGTR]

First look at the displacement of the motors in question. Then look at the series the cars are involved in.
Reliability has nothing to do with it.

For year F1 had turbo charged engines just as CART and INDY cars do now. The F1 governing body decided to break away from turbo charging and go back to NA in hopes to also make the racing closer, and slow the cars down. None of which were effected as we saw last year.

The Britsh touring car series all use NA cars. So does NASCAR, WINSTON CUP, to name a few. It is dependant on the racing series is all. In the States, Britian and Europe in general the emphasis has been on NA not turbo charging or super charging. Yes some cars do come out with that but the majority don't. While in Japan that has been the focal point to keep up with the much bigger and more powerful engines in the markets they compete in. So in order to get a small displacement engine to make good RELIABLE power to compete against say a Camaro you need to "cheat" Make it forced induction.

Now in Japan their main series for racing full stop is the JGTC. Many of you know that. In the GT500 class only the NSX is NA. Yep they go really well and do really well. They are also lighter. By restriction of forced indution cars are required to be heavier to compensate. They also put restriction on boost they can run and size of the turbos and intercoolers to allow the NSX to be more competitive.

The arguement of "lag" is not even an arguement due to the amount of ecu's now a days that have anti-lag software. How good is it? When you shift you let off the gas as one would. With anti-lag the moment you put your foot back in it the power is there again within .7 of sec. That is just about the time it takes for a normal quick shift not a flat shift or speed shift. Look at rally cars. They run full anti-lag. No lag what so ever as ever gear is right there and so is the power.

Another reason Major auto makers in the States don't use turbos is very simple. Turbos do not like extremely cold temps. Now before someone goes off their rocker. Dodge played around with the turbo Starion, and Conquest years ago. Back in the early and mid 80's. Also the little shadow. They had more problems they where worth with these engines. Turbos require a cool down period if you give the a bit. Also when the air is extremely cold it is also very heavy. This creates a leaning issue that 99.99% of th ecu's out there can not correct automaticly or within acceptable ranges. Couple in the extremely hot conditions in summer and time and you have a ticking time bomb for failure.

 

[Shinez]

Razor.....What about the GLH Omni? I mean..There's an old example of a turbo american..Or the Grand national which are both pimped out cars...I wasn't really trying to make a statement here, i just wanted to mention some overlooked cars.

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by Shinez
Razor.....What about the GLH Omni? I mean..There's an old example of a turbo american..Or the Grand national which are both pimped out cars...I wasn't really trying to make a statement here, i just wanted to mention some overlooked cars.

Good question. I've never heard of the GLH Omni. The Buick GN were a short run. I can't remember the years it was produced but it wasn't very many. The same with the GMC Typhoon, Labaran GTC amongst others.

The consintration of high hp sports cars was left up to the V8's more than anything. Turbo charging was never popular or as popular as super charging.

In Japan they R & D'ed turbo charging and in my opinion have mastered it. The Skyline, RX Series from 5-8, 300ZX, Mitzi 3000GT or here GTO, Evo's, WRX, VR4's (different from the states version) Mazda Familia GTX and GTR, Toyota Starlet, Supra's, the list goes on a bit more.

One thing to keep in mind about turbo or super charging is your engine has to be low compression to start with. that is what gives you so much lag. Most turbo motors are between 8-1 and 9-1 compression. Turbo charges as I mentioned really don't like the cold winters one would experience in the northern states. They require oil and coolent to cool the core assemblies. Having freezing conditions could comprimise the core.

So if you look back at all the cars produced by Amercian auto manufacturers none of them were for very long runs. I consider a long run of 8 consecutive years or longer.

There is another thing I was thinking of as I was writing this and that is the lack of high octane permium fuels there. I can remember the highest octane fuel being BP in Michigan which was 92. Now keeping in mind that here in New Zealand, Japan we have 98 or higher. Detination is definately a consideration though I doubt it would be a main contribuiting factor. Just though I would mention it.

 

[Shinez]

The GLH Omni was produced/sold mainly in mexico but quite a few made it over, I knew a guy who had one with about 400HP and it ran consistant 11's...It weights about the same as a starlette, if not less..Looks like some rugged POS, however it had the 2.4L Turbocharged engine that is now found in the Neon...Not the exact one, but very similar.

 

[vat_man]

The reason turbos were dumped in F1 was because it was getting too hard to limit the power they were producing, even with boost restrictions - that said, they were pretty spectacular when they were running 1200hp plus!

I heard a great comment from someone at the end of the Group A formula in Australia in the early '90's - 'the turbocharger has been the single most disruptive element in motorsport ever'. When you think about capacity equivalencies, it's pretty true.

Of course, you could probably make a case that traction control has been far more insidious - particularly after Paul Tracy's comments last month....

 

[Shinez]

I've never heard that quote before, but it speaks the truth no doubt...Turbochargers made some sports more and more interesting, while made other sports more and more one sided....It's a win lose situation, as with most other power adders...but...Forced induction is still coo
Spoolidge

Personally, I wonder what the automotive industry would be like if WWII never took place...imagine what inovations would just be being developed now....Like N2O, and Superchargers and Turbochargers.....even if some went into very very simple development in WWI...WWII is what brought them to the citizens.

 

[Shinez]

Here's a post I just did that contains some pics and some specs on the GLH Omni I was speaking of.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=575150#post575150

Correction* it's a 2.2L Chrystler motor as apposed to the new 2.4

 

[RazorGTR]

It would be a sleeper for sure because it looks just like the Omni Horizon.

Agreed forced induction whether it is turbo, side mount supercharger or top mounted blower have change the face of the motoring world. Then again you can argue the same for fuel injected, double overhead cams, and engines that can rev to 16,000 rpms.

One thing when it comes to turbo charging though. You can take a small displacement engine that is turbo charged and still get very good economy out of it while not sacraficing its potential to let loose with some awe inspiring performance.

Over the next 10 years I seriously believe we will see the downsizing of engines produced due to lowering oil reserves. Forced induction will go after that. Enjoy them while we can unless an alternative fuel such as alcohol is refined.

 

[Shinez]

Of course razor....A perfect example of this is the downsize of the mustang engine from a 5.0 to a 4.6, and hell the 10.L Boss SVT stang was completly cut off of the line due to engine size, even if there are 12L mustangs driving round the streets in FL...

 

[Magic069]

So Razor, what do think about the Neon SRT? Do you think its doomed? OR do you think Dodge has come along to the point that all those troubles they were having in the 80's with the shadows and such are gone?

I am just interested in your opinion, because this car is going to sell. With a price tage of just under 20,000 and tons of postive write ups in count less mag's, it seems it has no competition.

 

[Shinez]

First of all the shadows didn't sell well, not because they were bad cars..it's because in the 80's and early 90's there was no huge interest in the sport compact market...The same can be said for Nissan and the NX2000, it's a great car that handles better than alot of RWD cars stock, along with coming with a Sr20DE and weighing less than a shoebox...but that didn't sell either, that's why nissan pulled the plug..Same for the GLH omni..However compacts did sell well in europe in those days, thus the success of the Rabbit

 

[Shinez]

So what i'm saying is that the SRT-4 will more than likely be a hot seller and not put dodge in jeapordy, for one reason and one reason alone..The Dodge Neon SRT-4 program director...WAS A BLACK MAN..

 

[RazorGTR]

Well considering I moved from the States 5 years ago and the SRT wasn't out at that time I know nothing about it. There is as mentioned more of a shift now to sport companct to midsize. What are some of the specs of it? As far as not having competition that is a good thing for the first year or two. It is good for the motoring industry and the performance consumers as the rest will have to either catch up or lose out.

Funny thing here. We get a Chevy Caviler here but it is badged as and sold by Toyota! I was in total shock when I seen that. It is sold in Japan that way also. The first one I saw was about 2 months after I got here. A green Z24. It is right hand drive. 99.9% of the people out there who never knew it was a US domesticly produced car swore up and down it was produced soley by Toyota FFS. The reason I am bringing this up is odds are since Jeep sells the Cherokee range over here in right hand configuration brand new so does dodge with that Caravan they could be aiming at the Japanese markets. If that is the case it would have huge competition there and here.
Or it could be something like the subaru range where domesticlly it will have a different configuration as compared to what it is overseas. As a small example where in the states the lagacy's were all N/A, but the JDM markets saw the twin turbo GT's in all wheel drive.


Thing that really suxs for me is I am just young enough to miss out on the last of the good ol fashioned muscle cars of the late 60's when bigger was better. EG Chevelle SS454 though I did own a 69 Chevelle SS396 for two years before I lost it due to having a lead foot and young. Something about doing 145mph in a 55mph zone will do that. That and Lake County cops don't seem to have much of a sense of humor.

 

[Magic069]

I don't know if you have time, but Car and Driver has a nice write up on it, and its available on there website. It looks like they have all the specs as tested right there on the site.

Car and Driver's Neon SRT-4

 

[Nightmage82]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
Something about doing 145mph in a 55mph zone will do that.

sounds like you had quite a ride, well done

thanks for the comments guys, though i can't say its really cleared much up, let me put my question another way, if money was absolutely no object, and 98octane fuel was available on demand, plus ecu's and all other electronics were allowed would manufacturers prefer to go for NA or for TURBO? i.e. is the only reason japanese manufacturers use turbos because they have to start with small blocks ? and does F1 not use turbos because of the complexity as someone said and the fact they have been barred?

(oh and p.s. is the blower that sticks out of many american muscle cars a supercharger? i always just assumed it was another part of the engine heh)

 

[Duke]

Yes, it's a supercharger.

Formula 1 banned turbocharging in an effort to limit speeds and reduce danger. It's purely a rules matter, not a complexity matter.

Money no object, most manufacturers looking for absolute performance would use both big displacement and turbo.

 

[Cano]

Originally posted by Shinez
The GLH Omni was produced/sold mainly in mexico but quite a few made it over, I knew a guy who had one with about 400HP and it ran consistant 11's...It weights about the same as a starlette, if not less..Looks like some rugged POS, however it had the 2.4L Turbocharged engine that is now found in the Neon...Not the exact one, but very similar.

OMNIS were never sold in mexico. I have never seen one man. the ones that used the 2.4l turbo thing in here were the magnums, a k-platform car.

Cano

 

[Duke]

The Omni GLH and GLH-S was built in the Belvidere, Illinois assembly plant. Some may have also been built in the Toluca, Mexico assembly plant, but I'm not sure it was open at that time. GLHs (and more so GLH-Ss) can get you into the 12-second quarter mile bracket for $1200, including the price of the car.

But the car you're referring to was sold in America, not Mexico, and used several variations of the 2.2 Turbo, not the 2.4. The 2.4 is a totally new design dating from the 1995 model year, and was only factory turbocharged in the Mexico-only Stratus R/T. The revised 2.4 turbo is being offered in America in the GT Cruiser and the Neon SRT.

 

[Shinez]

I know neon......I said that.....and there is no way you're going to fine a running GLH omni and be able to get it into the 12's for 1200 dollars..Maybe when the car wasn't popular yeah...But not now that the sport compact market is sky high.

 

[Joey D]

I've heard of cars with two turbos and a supercharger. The supercharger gets rid of this lag the turbos put out. I wouldn't mind having a set up like that.