U.S. cleared, Italian Communist journalist lied

[Solid Fro]

Report clears U.S. in friendly fire incident
Italian negotiator failed to coordinate rescue with U.S. military


BAGHDAD - The friendly fire shooting at a U.S. military checkpoint last month in Baghdad wounded Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena and killed intelligence agent Nicola Calipari.
Now, NBC News has learned that a preliminary report from a joint U.S.-Italian investigation has cleared the American soldiers of any wrongdoing and provides new details into the shooting.Intelligence agent Calipari had just negotiated Sgrena's release from Iraqi kidnappers on March 4 when the two and a driver headed for the Baghdad airport in a compact rental car.

It was dark when the Italians turned onto a ramp leading to the airport road where the U.S. military had set up a temporary checkpoint.

The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver.

Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement.

The investigation failed, however, to resolve one critical dispute: The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed.

In Italy, agent Calipari was given a state funeral, but the investigation found he himself may have committed a fatal error. He reportedly chose not to coordinate his movements with the U.S. military for fear it would jeopardize his efforts to free the Italian hostage.

Sgrena, meanwhile, disputes the military's account and says she has little confidence the investigation will reveal the truth.

As a result of the incident, the U.S. military will review its procedures regarding the use of lethal force at checkpoints, but senior military officials say they'll take no action that would put American soldiers at greater risk.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7491280/

Looks like NBC can't do some simple math. I'm definitely the dullest knife in the drawer when it comes to math, but even I figured this one out:

130 yards to 65 yards (when warning shots were fired) is a difference of 65 yards. 65 yards in four seconds is 16.25 yards per second. 16.25 multiplied by 60 seconds and then by 60 minutes is 58,500 yards per hour, then divided by 1,760 (yards in a mile) equals 33.2386 miles per hour. The speed only increases if the distance is increased as well. 33.2386 miles per hour is the minimum speed of which the car traveled.

I would love to see what the nay-sayers would do if they had a car heading straight toward you at 35 miles per hour at night.

What does the Communist Sgrena have to say for herself now?

 

[a6m5]

On a CBS last night, they showed an interview of an former U.S. soldier, who used to be in charge of those "checkpoints". He explained that the current systems they use to flag people down just doens't work very well. Hand and arm signals are very hard to see from a distance, etc. He mentioned that most effective item his checkpoint used was an stop sign(in Arabic) they took from the street. This CBS report(I only caught part of it) also said that Italians had just finished(I think) informing the U.S. Command of the situation, right before the car was fired upon.

 

[Solid Fro]

On a CBS last night,

You mean 60 Minutes. You know, the people with the fake documents.

they showed an interview of an former U.S. soldier, who used to be in charge of those "checkpoints". He explained that the current systems they use to flag people down just doens't work very well. Hand and arm signals are very hard to see from a distance, etc. He mentioned that most effective item his checkpoint used was an stop sign(in Arabic) they took from the street. This CBS report(I only caught part of it) also said that Italians had just finished(I think) informing the U.S. Command of the situation, right before the car was fired upon.

That may be true, but these Italians did not obey any of these warnings, including warning shots, they kept driving toward the soldiers.

 

[ledhed]

I still say they should use a LAW intead of machine guns . They need to kill them before they get too close. A bomb blast has a large radius.

 

[Der Alta]

Just for a clarification, as it took me a moment to figure out what ledhed was saying.

laws = rules to live by.

LAWS = Light Anti-tank Weapons.

AO

 

[Famine]

Report clears U.S. in friendly fire incident
Italian negotiator failed to coordinate rescue with U.S. military

The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver.

Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement.

The investigation failed, however, to resolve one critical dispute: The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed.

[ViperZero's Maths]
65 yards in four seconds is ... 33.2386 miles per hour
[/ViperZero's Maths]

So. Who's right? The Americans who say the car was "racing towards the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour", or the Italians who say "it was travelling at a much slower speed"?

My maths say that 33.2386mph is about a third slower than 50mph (or the equivalent of 100mph compared to 150mph).


The information is in conflict. Quotes attributed in this article to the US say that the car was travelling at 50mph, but covered 65 yards in 4 seconds. Your maths prove that this is incorrect and the Italian version that the car was travelling "much slower" is more likely to be accurate.

 

[ledhed]

if they used a disrupter beam it would be a moot point.

 

[Solid Fro]

The information is in conflict. Quotes attributed in this article to the US say that the car was traveling at 50mph, but covered 65 yards in 4 seconds. Your maths prove that this is incorrect and the Italian version that the car was traveling "much slower" is more likely to be accurate.

Can you tell the difference between 33.2386 MPH and 50 MPH at night?

65 yards over 4 seconds are only estimates from the investigation. As I said before, if the distance increases, the speed increases as well. If the time it took for the car to travel was 3 seconds, the speed would have been just under 45 MPH.

Interesting, Sgrena herself said that they were “almost losing control” in an area they knew was “heavily patrolled by US troops.”, in her little manifesto: My Truth (Mein Kampf is more like it)

 

[a6m5]

That may be true, but these Italians did not obey any of these warnings, including warning shots, they kept driving toward the soldiers.

I still say they should use laws intead of machine guns . They need to kill them before they get too close. A bomb blast has a large radius.

If they put me in charge of setting up these checkpoints, my priority would be making the "checkpoint" procedure, clear cut. I would start with simple, easy to understand signs that instruct the drivers to slow down and be ready to comply to the directions by the soldiers at the checkpoint. These signs would be setup in the middle of the road, about 500m in front of the checkpoint. If they blow past these signs, ignore the hand/arm signals and finally the warning shots, Army should have the right to take out the vehicle.

If you want to blow someone to pieces, you better be sure that these checkpoints are clearly marked.

 

[Famine]

Can you tell the difference between 33.2386 MPH and 50 MPH at night?

Yes. Easily. If I couldn't, I'd have had multitude accidents by now, pulling out in front of cars I thought were 4 seconds away, but were actually 2.65 seconds away.

65 yards over 4 seconds are only estimates from the investigation. As I said before, if the distance increases, the speed increases as well. If the time it took for the car to travel was 3 seconds, the speed would have been just under 45 MPH.

Now you're adding your own hypotheticals - what if the time was 5 seconds, or the distance was shorter? Using the information YOU posted, sourced from NBC, in the first post:

Quotes attributed to US sources say:
"the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour"

Quotes attributed to the Italian sources say:
"it was traveling at a much slower speed"

The Investigation says:
"The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force"

Quotes attributed to US sources say:
"it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots"


Given the investigation's results, as proven by your mathematics, the first and second statements attributed to the American sources cannot possibly be both true. The statement attributed to the Italian sources seems to be more accurate.


So, who is right?

 

[Solid Fro]

So, who is right?

You are, Famine, you are.

 

[Famine]

Genius.

And you'll be addressing the point when?

 

[Solid Fro]

30 MPH or 50 MPH, does it matter when they refused to stop at the checkpoint?

I rather trust the judgment of an American solider than the Italian "sources".

 

[ledhed]

They didnt stop they got shot ...case closed. War zone = check point = stop or be shot .
The speed is a MOOT point . An evasion of the facts . They did not stop at a check point as ordered by the MEN WITH THE GUNS ...they then were properly ventilated . Why is this even a discussion ?

 

[Famine]

Well, to be honest, I couldn't care less. Run a checkpoint, die. Simple enough, right?


But the numbers Viper_Zero quoted from the American sources he'd rather trust conflict with one another AND the Investigation results.

The reason it matters, VZ, is "The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed."

YOU have claimed the Italians were lying. YOU then calculated the speed of the vehicle from the American soldiers' evidence as 33.286mph. Does this agree with the American claim of the car travelling at 50mph or the Italian claim that it was travelling slower? Is 33.286mph slower than 50mph, in your opinion? Is it, in fact, 33% slower, in your opinion?


A simple, straight answer will suffice.

 

[Solid Fro]

YOU have claimed the Italians were lying.

No, I claimed the communist journalist was lying when she claimed American soldiers open fired without reason. She was proved to be a lier.

Does this agree with the American claim of the car traveling at 50mph

No, it does not.

or the Italian claim that it was traveling slower?

How slow? 10 MPH? 33.128773 MPH? The Italians did not say. It's quite easy to say it was slower to cover up their mistakes.

Is 33.286mph slower than 50mph, in your opinion? Is it, in fact, 33% slower, in your opinion?

A simple, straight answer will suffice.

33 MPH is slower than 50 MPH. But, too fast for the Baghdad Airport highway at night.

 

[Solid Fro]

They didnt stop they got shot ...case closed. War zone = check point = stop or be shot .
The speed is a MOOT point . An evasion of the facts . They did not stop at a check point as ordered by the MEN WITH THE GUNS ...they then were properly ventilated . Why is this even a discussion ?

Right, as said by Sgrena herself, they were driving recklessly. They failed to stop at a checkpoint, no matter how fast they were going, on the most dangerous road on Earth.

Just today, two Filipino workers were injured on Route Irish and yesterday a car bomb exploded after a military convoy passed on the very same stretch of road. Look it up on Google.

And Sgrena wonders why her vehicle got shot at.

 

[Solid Fro]

I rather trust the judgment of an American solider than the Italian "sources".

US satellite recorded checkpoint shooting, shows speed of Italian car: CBS

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A US satellite reportedly recorded a checkpoint shooting in Iraq last month, enabling investigators to reconstruct how fast a car carrying a top Italian intelligence official and a freed hostage was traveling when US troops opened fire.

The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.

Giuliana Sgrena has said the car was traveling at a normal speed of about 30 miles an hour when the soldiers opened fired, wounding her and killing Nicola Calipari, the Italian agent who had just secured her release from a month's captivity.

US soldiers said at the time of the March 4 incident that the car approached at a high rate of speed and that they fired only after it failed to respond to hand signals, flashing bright lights and warning shots.

The conflicting accounts were among a number of differences that have prevented US and Italian authorities from reaching agreement on what happened.

CBS, citing Pentagon officials, said the satellite recording enabled investigators to reconstruct the event without having to rely on the eyewitness accounts.

It said the soldiers manning the checkpoint first spotted the Italian car when it was 137 yards (meters) away. By the time they opened fire and brought the car to a halt, it was 46 yards (meters) away. CBS said that happened in less than three seconds, which meant the car had to be going over 60 miles an hour.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050429/pl_afp/italyusiraqsatellite_050429162837;_ylt=Arjg3cLaI9SskuMfdpXZv8GsOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

I wonder what Communist Sgrena has to say for herself now? Her Mein Kampf has been disproved numerous times already, whether or not it's 30 MPH or 60 MPH.

 

[a6m5]

I don't trust CBS. They are known to fake documents! But seriously, I'm glad that it was the reporter that was wrong, not the soldiers. 👍

 

[Solid Fro]

I don't trust CBS either.

But, they're citing Pentagon officials this time, not a photocopier.

 

[a6m5]

I don't trust CBS either.

But, they're citing Pentagon officials this time, not a photocopier.

I know. I was just playing, because of your comment about CBS earlier in this post.

 

[ledhed]

They should have used a quad 20 mm anti aircraft mount . that would have shredded the crap out of that car ! Or even one of the chain guns like they have on the A - 10 .....brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiippppppppp...big grease spot...heheheehe .

 

[a6m5]

They should have used a quad 20 mm anti aircraft mount . that would have shredded the crap out of that car ! Or even one of the chain guns like they have on the A - 10 .....brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiippppppppp...big grease spot...heheheehe .

Do they have a name for what's wrong with you? A-10 chain gun? Is that the 30mm gatling?

 

[Emohawk]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm
And that's the extent of my contribution to this discussion

 

[a6m5]

I remembered it was an G.E. product, but I forgot how big it was. I remember seeing that VW photo from when I was a kid!

 

[ledhed]

Now your talkin.. THATS A MANLY GUN! bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha ...
Run this checkpoint baby...........! Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipppppp......hehehehehee ...big red vapor cloud.....mixed with car molecules....hehehehe..