What about Rally and Super GT?

[tankuroded]

Rally and Super GT has been the staple of Gran Turismo since the second game (although some rally and JGTC cars are in the first) - and previous games (barring 5 Prologue, due to the primarily road-car, road-track environment) have featured Super GT and rally cars (and tracks, for the rally cars).

However, there is no sight of any rally or Super GT cars in the current teaser trailer. GT3 and Le Mans cars took the spotlight instead. What will happen to both in GT Sport?

It should be noted that new rally and Super GT content have been declining so far. There are no new rally tracks in GT6, the only new rally cars in that game were the Tajima Pikes Peak cars and the Audi Quattros (and the WRC '08 cars were added only in the last minute), while only 3 new Super GT cars were added in GT6 (2 2012 HSV-010s and a BRZ GT300, although GT300 had become a GT3 fest anyway).

Have your say. 💡

 

[Tornado]

They might just not have made any new ones of either since GT6. With the huge rule changes both have had since GT5, they wouldn't really be able to have them compete with the ones already in the game.

 

[glassjaw]

As far as rally goes, if GT5 Prologue was any indication what to expect I assume we won't seen any rally courses but maybe a car or two, like the ST205 Celica. I also believe (and this is based on no hard evidence) that Polyphony desperately wants their course maker tech to be able to generate unique stages on the fly for GT7, and that might be why there were only a handful of purpose-built rally courses in GT5 and no new ones in GT6. I really hope that's not the case though.

Super GT? I have no idea, and it's a shame because the regs have changed dramatically since GT5 and I'd like to experience the new formula in GT Sport. Plus the interchangeability of GT3 and GT300 would mean a more varied selection of race cars that could reasonably compete with one and another - certainly one of Gran Turismo's oldest failings and something it could improve upon.

 

[cutmeamango]

Not a WRC car but:
https://www.gtplanet.net/peugeot-208-t16-pikes-peak-coming-to-gran-turismo-series/
And at least a GT300 car:
http://ameblo.jp/apr-racing/entry-11414192800.html

 

[Samus]

There are 11 cars in the trailer. I really wouldn't read into anything "missing" just yet.

 

[tankuroded]

There are 11 cars in the trailer. I really wouldn't read into anything "missing" just yet.

Well, only time will tell what happens next.

 

[twitcher]

I agree that Super GT is a staple in Gran Turismo and deserves to maintain its place.

However, that's in a perfect world.

I'm speculating, but I have a feeling that the current state of Super GT is perhaps why PD may not be too keen on keeping things 100% up to date.

If you follow Super GT, you'll know that in the last couple of years, the series has gone through some MASSIVE changes. The most significant being with the GT500 cars switching to the DTM based carbon monocoque, with the standardized 2.0L turbo 4-cylinder.

So, I believe PD is at a bit of a crossroads. Yes, they could port the now out-of-date GT500s over (which I'm sure they'll do for GT7), but why would they want to showcase a new game on a new console with old cars?

Another option would be to model one, or all three, of the current GT500 cars. That takes a lot of time though (due to PD's process), and with the rate that the current GT500 and DTM cars are developing, by the time PD finished the modelling, the cars would be out of date again.

The way PD models cars really puts them up against it in terms of pumping out current race cars. Especially, especially, because they model each livery independently and refuse to let their customers do that for them :Banghead: yes, in reality, every one of the GT500 cars is slightly different, mostly in regards to the aero...but all intensive purposes, does modelling down to that level of detail really enhance the racing experience in the game?

I definitely think the Super GT and DTM cars will show up in GT7. Hopefully the most current ones possible, and hopefully programmed in a way that there is some parity between the two series (like what's being attempted in real life). But I don't see PD making the effort to put them in GTS.

 

[GTracer125]

The lack of tracks for them is what I think might delay their appearance for GTS, GT5 and 6 has many tracks but not a lot for a specific class, GT500 and GT300 only have 3 tracks I can think of, Fuji, Suzuka, and Tsb, Rally also has lack of real world tracks, we only have fictional ones and Toscana really isn't a good rally track in my opinion, From what we seen, GTS is mostly about GT3, LeMans Proto, and possibly Road/Hyper Cars, due to the appearance of the AMG GT, Miata 2016, and Lambo Veneno.

 

[twitcher]

The lack of tracks for them is what I think might delay their appearance for GTS, GT5 and 6 has many tracks but not a lot for a specific class, GT500 and GT300 only have 3 tracks I can think of, Fuji, Suzuka, and Tsb, Rally also has lack of real world tracks, we only have fictional ones and Toscana really isn't a good rally track in my opinion, From what we seen, GTS is mostly about GT3, LeMans Proto, and possibly Road/Hyper Cars, due to the appearance of the AMG GT, Miata 2016, and Lambo Veneno.

Fuji and Suzuka are used by Super GT, but not definitely not Tsukuba. With the size of the grid, the race would be one giant traffic jam Pits wouldn't work either.

Motegi is the other Japanese track in Gran Turismo which Super GT races on.

And technically, Super GT has raced in America at Leguna Seca, back when it was still called the JGTC. Can't remember exactly what year it was, but it sometime in the early to mid 2000s.


And if Super GT ever did end up having a street course (like the Norisring in DTM), PD's Tokyo R246 would actually work quite well I think. Safety through the high speed sections would be the main issue (and shutting down a major area of Tokyo), but overall, the layout and size of the track fit Super GT really nicely.

 

[GTracer125]

Fuji and Suzuka are used by Super GT, but not definitely not Tsukuba. With the size of the grid, the race would be one giant traffic jam Pits wouldn't work either.

Motegi is the other Japanese track in Gran Turismo which Super GT races on.

And technically, Super GT has raced in America at Leguna Seca, back when it was still called the JGTC. Can't remember exactly what year it was, but it sometime in the early to mid 2000s.


And if Super GT ever did end up having a street course (like the Norisring in DTM), PD's Tokyo R246 would actually work quite well I think. Safety through the high speed sections would be the main issue (and shutting down a major area of Tokyo), but overall, the layout and size of the track fit Super GT really nicely.

My bad, yeah Tsb is a drift track right, that GT5 trailer that had Super GT on TSB came to mind when I wrote the post, and Imagine a real life Tokyo R426 circuit, PD always had Super GT shown on Tokyo multiple times right?

 

[glassjaw]

The way PD models cars really puts them up against it in terms of pumping out current race cars. Especially, especially, because they model each livery independently and refuse to let their customers do that for them :Banghead: yes, in reality, every one of the GT500 cars is slightly different, mostly in regards to the aero...but all intensive purposes, does modelling down to that level of detail really enhance the racing experience in the game?

As much as I, like everyone else, would love a livery editor in GT7, I have to commend Polyphony for going to the trouble of making the separate liveries themselves rather than relying on inferior creations from the community. Yes, there's always some quality stuff to be had browsing through Forza's options but most of it is pretty awful.

 

[Bo]

However, that's in a perfect world.

I'm speculating, but I have a feeling that the current state of Super GT is perhaps why PD may not be too keen on keeping things 100% up to date.

If you follow Super GT, you'll know that in the last couple of years, the series has gone through some MASSIVE changes. The most significant being with the GT500 cars switching to the DTM based carbon monocoque, with the standardized 2.0L turbo 4-cylinder.

So, I believe PD is at a bit of a crossroads. Yes, they could port the now out-of-date GT500s over (which I'm sure they'll do for GT7), but why would they want to showcase a new game on a new console with old cars?

I very much doubt this would be an issue.

Every GT title has been behind in their choice of cars. With Class 1 being provisionally delayed until 2019 (unsurprisingly), the 2014 cars will stay relevant enough, and at least in the same rough performance band.

I also have no idea why anyone would want the cars to become complete cookie cutters. Modeling accuracy is one of the only things GT has going for it, simply making 3 generic GT500 cars from each manufacturer would be horribly inaccurate and substantially detract from the appeal of the game. We want to push for higher accuracy all round, not drive it the opposite way.

 

[twitcher]

As much as I, like everyone else, would love a livery editor in GT7, I have to commend Polyphony for going to the trouble of making the separate liveries themselves rather than relying on inferior creations from the community. Yes, there's always some quality stuff to be had browsing through Forza's options but most of it is pretty awful.

I agree, but if you had to make a choice, would you pick 2 accurately modelled liveries on basically the same car, or would you pick two completely different cars with a baseline livery that can be customized.

My bad, yeah Tsb is a drift track right, that GT5 trailer that had Super GT on TSB came to mind when I wrote the post man, and Imagine a real life Tokyo R426 circuit, PD always had Super GT shown on Tokyo multiple times right?

There are race events held at Tsukuba, it's not just for drifting. There's probably more racing at Tsukuba than drifting in reality. The majority of the racing is with TC3/GT5, spec racing like Miata Cup, historic racing like TRD N2, Time Attack events, various track meets like the Idler's festival, and then open track days. It also gets used a lot in various Japanese TV shows about cars and motoring.

There have been times in the past where GT500 and GT300 cars have run at Tsukuba, usually as part of a demo. The most infamous time was when Tsechuya-San drove the GT500 ARTA NSX, and set the lap record (which has since been broken by time attack cars I believe). I'm pretty sure this was the last time he drove the car as well, as the whole purpose of the event was him retiring as a driver.

 

[twitcher]

I very much doubt this would be an issue.

Every GT title has been behind in their choice of cars. With Class 1 being provisionally delayed until 2019 (unsurprisingly), the 2014 cars will stay relevant enough, and at least in the same rough performance band.

I also have no idea why anyone would want the cars to become complete cookie cutters. Modeling accuracy is one of the only things GT has going for it, simply making 3 generic GT500 cars from each manufacturer would be horribly inaccurate and substantially detract from the appeal of the game. We want to push for higher accuracy all round, not drive it the opposite way.

So based on what we know about PD's modelling process, you would rather see each individual GT500 car modelled down to the last fin and winglet, with every sticker in the correct spot, instead of getting 1 of each GT500, 1 of each DTM, and let's say 1 of each V8 Supercar?

Edit: my bad for the DP

 

[Bo]

So based on what we know about PD's modelling process, you would rather see each individual GT500 car modelled down to the last fin and winglet, with every sticker in the correct spot, instead of getting 1 of each GT500, 1 of each DTM, and let's say 1 of each V8 Supercar?

Yes - I'd rather they do it right, or not do it at all. In an ideal world, we can have all the correctly modeled cars and then a base model for each manufacturer. More quantity over quality would guarantee the game to be a non-purchase for me.

 

[glassjaw]

So based on what we know about PD's modelling process, you would rather see each individual GT500 car modelled down to the last fin and winglet, with every sticker in the correct spot, instead of getting 1 of each GT500, 1 of each DTM, and let's say 1 of each V8 Supercar?

Edit: my bad for the DP

You can't equate the time and effort that goes into minor modifications and livery differences (which are really just glorified textures) to modelling a completely different car. It's not nearly as much work and has its advantages. Many different liveries lead to a more realistically diverse grid without designers having to pour exponentially more time into other models. I'm not saying I wouldn't like more cars but you have to compromise somewhere.

 

[Samus]

I don't watch Super GT but surely the different teams using the same model aren't THAT different, are they? For PD they would surely model one of them and then just make the small tweaks needed for the rest.

 

[Bo]

I don't watch Super GT but surely the different teams using the same model aren't THAT different, are they? For PD they would surely model one of them and then just make the small tweaks needed for the rest.

They're about 85% the same for each manufacturer. Different wheels, tyre brands, minor aero updates, power outputs (including things like power bands and torque figures because each engine is restricted in a slightly different way) and interior layouts. One basic model would suffice, but each car is different enough to at least warrant the extra detail.

 

[Samus]

They're about 85% the same for each manufacturer. Different wheels, tyre brands, minor aero updates, power outputs (including things like power bands and torque figures because each engine is restricted in a slightly different way) and interior layouts. One basic model would suffice, but each car is different enough to at least warrant the extra detail.

Yeah so not really a problem at all for PD. Creating different wheels and little aero parts wouldn't be much work, and power/performance are just numbers. If they model one car they might as well make the adjustments for the rest, it's not like a modeler could make a complete other new car in that same time.

 

[twitcher]

It's not that simple though. You guys saying that you want 100% accuracy and that PD can make some simple visual adjustments to achieve that.

If you want the accuracy, you should also want PD to model the physics behind those visual differences. Again it's probably not as big a task as modelling a whole new car, but I can't imagine getting the physics engine to a point where you can tell the difference between a Michelin, a Dunlop, and a Yokohama, to be an easy task. I don't think accurately modelling the effects of the various tire, aero, and engine performance differences is a quick job either.

The current GT500 field is 15 cars. I'd say that's within the realm of possibility for PD to include in GT7, but my gut tells me we won't be seeing 15 different Super GT cars from the same year/era.

Personally, I would like to see grid sizes increase in GT7, especially online, if even by only 4 players (8 more for grids of 24 would be awesome!)

Now, with my interpretation of what you guys seem to be asking PD for, I see that direction leading to one of two ends for GT7. Either we'll have a GT500 grid full of cars which are visually accurate, but perform basically uniformly within the brand; or, we'll have a select few cars from each brand modelled down to the finest detail, but there won't be nearly enough variety to make up a full grid without several clones appearing.

I also have a feeling that the level of detail you guys are asking PD to model these cars to would have to be based off information which frankly I don't think PD, or anyone for that matter, would be given access to. The Super GT teams don't let people take pictures of the rear of their cars because they don't want to give away their diffuser secrets. Recently retired cars are usually locked away and not seen until at least few years have passed and the tech is outdated. For PD to accurately model the various tire brands, they would need access to info that I don't think those tire companies want to share with everyone. Especially in that series, which is basically the last open tire war series left.

I suppose PD could model an entire field that was 5-10 years old down to the last detail....which I'm all for, I like historic racing too....but I don't know if I'd be ok with not having the most recent GT500s possible.

I'm trying to approach from a "based on PD's history, what's realistic for them to accomplish". I can't see them bringing a full GT500 field, modelled accurately enough that all 15 cars feel different from one another, to GT7. I think a more reasonable ask for GT7 is to have 1, maybe 2, base models from each manufacturer, with a full livery editor, and some "programmer's liberty" to provide some parity between Super GT and DTM (which I'm hoping we get more of in GT7, regardless of our current discussion on Super GT). To me, that provides the opportunity for the most variety on a full grid, which I guess is my endgame in all of this.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Personally I'd rather PD look forward and focus on the current and very near future. If they can get the current GT500 and DTM cars somewhat equal, then move forward in that direction by getting a half dozen cars with a half dozen liveries each and let's race them. Keep the current premium legacy assets and ditch the rest. With this FIA affiliation and their promise to revolutionize the genre, I'd like to see them moving towards licensing several entire series with the blessing and cooperation of the FIA and series organizers. Let's do this thing up right instead of a car here and a car there and have a focus on actual or even fictional racing series, preferably at all levels of racing from beginner to the top classes, with well matched, competitive cars.

 

[twitcher]

Personally I'd rather PD look forward and focus on the current and very near future. If they can get the current GT500 and DTM cars somewhat equal, then move forward in that direction by getting a half dozen cars with a half dozen liveries each and let's race them. Keep the current premium legacy assets and ditch the rest. With this FIA affiliation and their promise to revolutionize the genre, I'd like to see them moving towards licensing several entire series with the blessing and cooperation of the FIA and series organizers. Let's do this thing up right instead of a car here and a car there and have a focus on actual or even fictional racing series, preferably at all levels of racing from beginner to the top classes, with well matched, competitive cars.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about 👍

Whatever PD does, however they do it, I hope it's in a direction which allows us to have full, diverse, evenly matched grids so we can have some actual online series.

If you go through the Online Series sub form, you can get a small grasp of the amount of time and effort GTP members went to in order to create series with BoP and/or pariety - in order to provide an alternative to one make series - and it makes you realize how crazy it is that PD doesn't do a little of this themselves.

Going forward, hopefully we can get cars modelled accurately enough that they can be balanced off real world BoP, which would of course be graciously provided by the FIA.

 

[Bo]

GT3, TCR and the like should be the only ones that actually get a BoP. Fictional BoP's which try and bring two reg sets with a big performance difference (for example DTM and GT500) are probably a little OTT - Knocking 300hp of one car to bring it in line with the others, trying to compensate for the hybrid system etc, I don't think it would work all too well.

 

[twitcher]

GT3, TCR and the like should be the only ones that actually get a BoP. Fictional BoP's which try and bring two reg sets with a big performance difference (for example DTM and GT500) are probably a little OTT - Knocking 300hp of one car to bring it in line with the others, trying to compensate for the hybrid system etc, I don't think it would work all too well.

On one hand I agree that some series are better suited to be based off real world BoP than others.

Again though, even though I think I can guess your answer, would you rather have 2 cars which are modelled 100% accurate, but can really only compete in 1-make races; or, would you rather have 2 cars which are 90% accurate, but use some number fudging to make the two cars competative against each other? I'm not talking specifically about Super GT with that question, more just in general.

I get people's quest for accuracy and realism, and I'm all for it. That said, I still favor a large, diverse, competative grid, even if it includes some deviation from real life.

You do make a fair point though about the current state of Super GT and DTM in terms of their comming together. If that whole concept has been delayed until 2019, maybe having crossover between the two series in GT is something that will have to wait for GT8.

My whole thing though is just that I would really like to see GT offer the ability to host online championships that go further than 1-make championships, and avoid having clones on the grid as much as possible. Like I said, I get your desire for accuracy, but I feel the cost of that accuracy is that we end up in the same boat that we've been in for 5&6, where one makes are really the only "realistic" viable championship, and every other series present in the game is represented by a small handful of cars, or we just get a ton of random racecars which don't really fit into any class and are basically good for nothing (or 1-makes).

I'll be completely honest, a lot of my motivation in this is coming from my experience playing PCARS. It's shown me how much fun the racing can be if the Dev puts in a little time to organize things into properly balanced classifications.

 

[oli440]

Since premium Super GT cars are present in GT6, I see no reason why they wouldn't include those in GT Sport. Whether or not they will include new ones is something only time will tell.

As for rally cars, the only way I can see them returning is if they include off road courses. To be fair, the first trailer for the game had two rally cars in that old footage at the start. Obviously, we can't confirm those cars as actually being in the game, but it would be very misleading for them not to include them. The FIA partnership should in theory boost the possibility of new WRC cars being featured.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Super GT (JGTC) are part of Gran turismo from the begening, so am shure that it will be part od of GT7 and probable GT sport. We can expect 2014 maybe 2015 Super GT cars in game. Rally cars also will be part of GT7 there no reason to remove cars that are created in premium form from PS4 game. Also am higly confident that will be part of GT sport because WRC is under FIA.

 

[Bo]

Does anyone know if the Codies World RX deal is exclusive? Rallycross could turn out a lot easier to implement than stage rallying. Even if they can't secure World RX, ERX or Ripla Retro would be a nice little addition.

 

[sems4arsenal]

One of the hiring pages from PD stated they needed someone to implement rules (flags) of racing series like NASCAR and rally if I'm not mistaken.

 

[RACECAR]

And technically, Super GT has raced in America at Leguna Seca, back when it was still called the JGTC. Can't remember exactly what year it was, but it sometime in the early to mid 2000s.

Actually, that was California Speedway:

 

[twitcher]

Actually, that was California Speedway:

I swear I thought they raced at Leguna Seca one time....or maybe it was just a demo day or something? Probably just losing my mind