What have you done to your car today?

[Perfect Balance]

J/k, it's just down to my personal taste in power delivery, I've always been an all-motor/supercharger guy. Kinda like those stubborn old muscle car guys. Plus the BOV noise just annoys me to no end. ******' ricers.

Power delivery as in response or powerband? If you mean powerband, you've already gone in that direction with a VTEC motor, and if you mean response, there are multiple ways of taking care of that. Going by the fact that you are planning an N/A build, I assume you aren't a power junkie, meaning that you'd be more than happy with a very small turbo with virtually zero lag. With a lightweight flywheel it would probably still be better than stock.

BOV noise is taken care of by running a recirculating valve, which is actually better in most cases.

Those "stubborn old muscle car guys" are typically misinformed people who hang on to "how it was done back in the day" mentality for dear life. So my "feeling" I had was correct as far as I can tell.

EDIT: Back on topic, my (correct) driverside 300zx caliper came in today. Wish I would have checked my previous ones to confirm they were correct before spending a week rebuilding them and painting. Waiting on the passengerside one, and if it's correct, I'm on to saving for my wheels.

 

[Paulie]

60 whp gain with bolt-ons is a stretch. I'm on barely streetable cams, with a full exhaust (no cats), a custom hybrid intake and engine management, and I'm barely pushing +40 whp. For 60 whp over whatever engine you'll have in the car, you'll want a standalone (for the rev-limit control), higher compression internals and one hell of a tune... then again, I've seen some guys pull 45 whp out of a Honda with just breathing mods and a standalone... (touring car... no internals allowed... straight exhaust, though) with those level 2 cams, you might get to 55 whp, but you'll want high compression pistons to hit your target.

I've got 180rwhp presently, and although I never had it dyno'd when it was stock, most Commodores normally get about 100-110rwhp, especially due to being old and done a lot of kms. I've got high ratio roller rockers, but everything else is bolt-ons. (ECU is a bolt-on right?).
PS- You just need a little displacement.

 

[Punknoodle]

You just need a little displacement.

Or boost

 

[Paulie]

Or boost

Check and mate.

 

[niky]

I've got 180rwhp presently, and although I never had it dyno'd when it was stock, most Commodores normally get about 100-110rwhp, especially due to being old and done a lot of kms. I've got high ratio roller rockers, but everything else is bolt-ons. (ECU is a bolt-on right?).
PS- You just need a little displacement.

Yeah... you've got nearly twice ours... 110 whp is pretty pitiful for a big engine (it's a 3.8, right?)... but your stock motor is probably tuned pretty conservatively.

For a small four banger of around 2 liters, given that this is a Honda engine, which is already highly efficient, a 60 whp gain is pretty difficult to accomplish with bolt-ons and cams, not unless the stock tuning is terribly conservative. I know mine was, which is why even with just ECU tuning my car could rip a stock car to shreds in a straight-up drag. But I doubt the same can be said of the H22.

-

RE: Boost vs. NA, lots to be said for either approach... boost is definitely more cost effective, with much more potential... but the sound and feel of a good naturally aspirated mill... it's like the difference between fine wine and a shot of good whiskey. The whiskey tastes good and gets you drunk faster, but sometimes it's nice to draw out a good drunk and savor each mouthful...

 

[Punknoodle]

it's like the difference between fine wine and a shot of good whiskey. The whiskey tastes good and gets you drunk faster, but sometimes it's nice to draw out a good drunk and savor each mouthful...

Where does beer fit in to all this? Oh yea...vans, because you'll get there, but you'll end up carrying a lot more in the end (That was funnier in my head)

 

[niky]

Beer is nitrous. Cheapest way to get your drunk on, but it can have some nasty side-effects.

 

[Punknoodle]

Yep... yours was better

EDIT: By the way, new air freshener. Go me! Other than that, still waiting on suspension (but at least I have the tracking number now) and the car goes in to get dyno tuned on Friday

 

[Eric.]

The huge advantage boost has is that you'll have a really nice, fat powerband, rather than having massive cams and only making 40% of your peak power until you hit 7500rpm where the stage 86 race cams are designed to work...And once you see how easy superchargers bolt on, its almost a no-brainer to go that route. Less parts to upgrade, way better hp/$. And all the motor mods improve on it as well. You can't lose (unless you're concerned about adding a little bit of weight).

 

[niky]

True. Still... a matter of what you want... the fastest car you can get, or something that's fun and a little unusual.

My car is dog-slow below 4k rpms... which is all right... I don't go hooning around at just 4k. But when I'm pushing it... having that extra snap between 5k and redline really makes it worth it. That it's more challenging to "keep on boil" and it requires more to extract that power enhances the flavor, for me. I'm sure you'll appreciate that (given your car) feeling.

Of course... it's also fun to have giddy amounts of boost at ridiculously low rpms... but asking me to choose between the two is like asking a kid whether he wants a cheeseburger or a soda... I'd rather have both!

 

[Paulie]

Yeah... you've got nearly twice ours... 110 whp is pretty pitiful for a big engine (it's a 3.8, right?)... but your stock motor is probably tuned pretty conservatively.

Well to be fair they probably had more like 130rwhp at least when new, just that these days most are up around 200,000km or more, even mine has done almost 230,000km.

You can't lose (unless you're concerned about adding a little bit of weight).

Of course I'm concerned, depending on what engine it is in the first place. That naturally aspirated engine note is really something too, again depending on what engine it is.

 

[CyborgGT]

60 whp gain with bolt-ons is a stretch. I'm on barely streetable cams, with a full exhaust (no cats), a custom hybrid intake and engine management, and I'm barely pushing +40 whp. For 60 whp over whatever engine you'll have in the car, you'll want a standalone (for the rev-limit control), higher compression internals and one hell of a tune... then again, I've seen some guys pull 45 whp out of a Honda with just breathing mods and a standalone... (touring car... no internals allowed... straight exhaust, though) with those level 2 cams, you might get to 55 whp, but you'll want high compression pistons to hit your target.

I'm talking brake horsepower, as in off the crankshaft. I don't want any more than about 300bhp absolute tops... what's that, low 200s at the wheel? Goal is mid-200s brake, I'm building for handling. My car is FWD, after all. More power than that's stupid, imo. I'd like to be able to tease my car's limits every once in a while without always having to deal with tons of understeer. A guy down in Denver's turbo-ed the Accord's SOHC non-VTEC F22A up to over 500whp right now. Says he's coming up my way for a tune at a local shop, combining 30+ psi with nitrous for a goal of over 700hp (probably at the wheels). On top of a ton of Bisimoto internals, he actually went to visit the guy recently.

An example of an all-motor SOHC F22A with "ebay i/h/e, h23 [5th-gen Prelude non-VTEC DOHC] intake mani, [Integra Type R throttle body], chipped p06 tuned on crome and [Bisimoto Level 2 camshaft]". The engine's stock brake horsepower is 125. I'll be doing virtually the same upgrades, only I've got two cams, VTEC, and am starting at 197bhp stock.

And Perfect Balance, in terms of big power builds I prefer NA/super over turbo because of the throttle response. Whereas making any real power with a turbo usually means lag, I like the low-end torque.

For those interested, click the pic for that turbo guy's full build:

 

[J-PaP]

Broke it!

Lotus doesn't go to work usually and today decided to drive my sisters car. Lost control on the freeway after swerving way faster than the cars limit to avoid another possible accident. I guess I'm not used to driving large rwd cars. The other car is a write off and out of respect for the other driver I won't post a picture of the damage to their car. Lady was very shocked but seemed like she would be ok.

 

[Punknoodle]

Ohhh bugger. What was the other car? Glad everyone was ok though.

 

[RenoRanes007]

Broke mine too!

Well... I didn't actually break it, more... It broke, or more precisely the Clutch Slave Cylinder went and dumped all the fluid so I was stuck for 2 hours till the services arrived.

 

[CyborgGT]

Damn, nice Audi

 

[Eric.]

<use of the words "Honda", "VTEC", and "low-end torque">

Bought the wrong car?

 

[Perfect Balance]

And Perfect Balance, in terms of big power builds I prefer NA/super over turbo because of the throttle response. Whereas making any real power with a turbo usually means lag, I like the low-end torque.

Turbo lag is not the same thing as having a turbo that only builds boost high up in the rpm range, and you don't really run into those problems except on VERY high hp builds. Otherwise the difference is negligible, and you've already said you aren't going for a high hp build.

Not to mention, a lack of low end torque doesn't much much in a racing application, and once again, you were never going for a high hp build anyway. You could easily have a high 200 hp motor that has power anywhere above 2k rpm.

I guess in the end it's down to personal preference, I just want you to know that not all turbo builds end up as a laggy, un-drivable car.

EDIT: @Eric: That too.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Few days ago I side gapped and indexed the spark plugs in my car. Supposed to help with gas mileage, we'll see after I replace my clutch that just failed on me.

 

[niky]

I guess in the end it's down to personal preference, I just want you to know that not all turbo builds end up as a laggy, un-drivable car.

Indeed. And not all NA builds end up as boggy, un-drivable cars. Though mine was for quite a while before I got my cam gears tuned... racing cams FTW!

 

[McLaren]

The huge advantage boost has is that you'll have a really nice, fat powerband, rather than having massive cams and only making 40% of your peak power until you hit 7500rpm where the stage 86 race cams are designed to work...And once you see how easy superchargers bolt on, its almost a no-brainer to go that route. Less parts to upgrade, way better hp/$. And all the motor mods improve on it as well. You can't lose (unless you're concerned about adding a little bit of weight).

Easy for the Civic, maybe. The money it costs to supercharge the TL isn't worth the horsepower you'll make. Spend a couple grand more & the turbo will net double the S/C in my car's case.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Indeed. And not all NA builds end up as boggy, un-drivable cars. Though mine was for quite a while before I got my cam gears tuned... racing cams FTW!

Agreed. I love a properly tuned N/A motor. I was simply intrigued as to why he said he hated turbos, and it went from there.

 

[fitftw]

yesterday I removed the P/S and installed a 4-1 header

 

[Punknoodle]

Well the car went in to get dyno tuned today, they finally got it running alright, so thats the main thing, but then they put it on the dyno and it would boost creep, and hit boost cut. Even with the wastegate permanently open it would do it, so obviously the previous owners attempt at a custom dump pipe was a bit useless and its blocking the wastegate flap. Bloody useless

So now the car is staying there over night, they have taken off the dump pipe and are going to grind it to get clearance for the flap, then put it back on the dyno, set the boost and job done... hopefully. I'll post my dyno sheet tomorrow when I get the car.

In other news sitting next to my new sway bar in the garage are 2 new Tein dampers, just waiting on the other 2 to arrive (they were sent a day later, so it'll be Monday) - so I have next weekend all planned out, car should be running good, and then sitting low. Perfect

 

[Paulie]

Terminology explaination required, "boost creep" and "boost cut". Is it just me or are there a LOT of "tuners" out there that can't tune a car properly. My first tune sucked balls too, luckily my 2nd one was pretty good. I hope your car isn't more powerful than mine. I didn't even realise yours was a turbo, how much power are you expecting?

 

[Punknoodle]

Terminology explaination required, "boost creep" and "boost cut". Is it just me or are there a LOT of "tuners" out there that can't tune a car properly. My first tune sucked balls too, luckily my 2nd one was pretty good. I hope your car isn't more powerful than mine. I didn't even realise yours was a turbo, how much power are you expecting?

Hmm, ok well simply speaking boost creep is where your boost levels rise uncontrollably. In this instance I have a manual boost controller which is supposed to limit my boost to 12 psi.

How it does this, is by limiting the boost pressure getting to the wastegate actuator from the turbo, by means of a small ball bearing held down by a spring.

You see, the wastegate actuator is set from the factory to open (although it does this in a linear fashion from 0 psi) at around 7psi (there is a line straight from the turbo housing, to the actuator). This then opens up the wastegate, which is simply a bypass of the exhaust gasses from the turbine to straight out of the exhaust, thus producing no more boost. So by putting a manual boost controller in the line coming from the turbo the boost pressure has to push against this spring before it can get to the actuator to make it open, hence I can control it to 12 psi.

So, even with my wastegate open, I was still producing more boost, and in this instance it was because my wastegate flap (which is supposed to open to bypass the exhaust gasses) was being blocked by the poor workmanship on the custom downpipe.

Boost cut is where the engine management detects a boost pressure higher than its preset safe level (in this case its 14psi - there is an electronic pressure sensor) and cuts the fuel to the engine. It is not a nice experience, trust me, its a pretty harsh cut.

There are a lot of tuners who have no idea - I don't have that problem with the shop I'm getting mine done at, they have an excellent track record and definately know what they are talking about, which makes the extra money spent on tuning worth it - peace of mind.

In regards to the power, its hard to say. Standard, these cars have around 200hp (at the flywheel). Mine is pretty close to stock except for the internals, which don't really effect perfomance, just reliability. Except for the knife edged crank, which will make it rev faster but likely produce less torque (lightened flywheel too won't help that).

The only thing mine has that will effect performance is the intake and exhaust and the custom dump pipe, better spark plugs and higher boost - so I'm unsure, I guess I'll find out tomorrow! I'm not expecting big numbers, although the leak down test was reassuring.

 

[slidesquad#1]

Boost creep is when, funnily enough, your boost creeps up over whatever limit you have it set at, i.e. you set your boost controller to 14 psi, but it'll keep going above that. Can be for a variety of reasons, in his case apparently because the downpipe isn't allowing the wastegate flap to open completely, i.e. it's not bleeding off the excess air it needs to control boost.

Boost cut is when you hit a certain boost level (in my case it's a combination of boost/throttle/time), and the computer goes "hello, this is too much for me to handle, time to make sure I don't explode" and generally cuts fuel. No fuel=no power. Not a nice feeling if you don't know what it is. Pretty much like driving into a wall.

I would expect him to make more power than a fairly standard v6 Commodore (unless you've been playing with it a lot recently?). Forged internals (which I'm pretty sure he has from memory) means that he can afford to be a tad less conservative with boost levels.

Punknoodle, are you still running the standard ECU? Can they be flashed? Seems like a bit of a waste to spend all that money and run factory parameters such as boost cut/speed limiter etc.

I have no idea how it took me 10 minutes to type that haha. Tree'd. Hard.

 

[Punknoodle]

Lol, yea mate gotta be quick around here

And yes, factory ECU at the momment, but watch this space...

 

[Eric.]

Turbo lag is not the same thing as having a turbo that only builds boost high up in the rpm range, and you don't really run into those problems except on VERY high hp builds. Otherwise the difference is negligible, and you've already said you aren't going for a high hp build.

Not to mention, a lack of low end torque doesn't much much in a racing application, and once again, you were never going for a high hp build anyway. You could easily have a high 200 hp motor that has power anywhere above 2k rpm.

I guess in the end it's down to personal preference, I just want you to know that not all turbo builds end up as a laggy, un-drivable car.

EDIT: @Eric: That too.

This.

I don't know if you've driven any turbo cars, Cyborg, I've only driven a mildly modded SRT4. There was no lack of low end. Sure it wouldn't just rocket away at full throttle at 1500rpm, but it still had plenty of power for regular driving down low. And its not like that wouldn't apply to an NA Honda. You also don't necessarily want gobs of low end torque in a FWD, it'll just turn into wheelspin. The SRT4 I drove only had a modded mechanical wastegate (held an extra ~5psi) and a cold air. At about 20mph, full throttle in second gear would still obliterate the front tires. He finally got a tuner on it and a set of Star Specs though and it helped the power delivery a lot.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Except for the knife edged crank, which will make it rev faster but likely produce less torque (lightened flywheel too won't help that).

Lightweight flywheels don't make a car lose torque, and in most cases, it will actually put down more to the wheels on a dyno. All it does is simply not maintain rotational energy like a heavy flywheel does.

End result being more throttle input needed on a drag launch to maintain rpm, giving the impression of less torque. The actual torque the car puts to the wheels on acceleration does not drop, and usually increases.

Basically, what it comes down to, is during launches or clutch kicks, it will not have as much "kick" due to the flywheel having less mass, but the engine will still produce the same power or more than it did before, and should accelerate faster, though it may take more finesse to properly launch it.