What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from ToCA Race Driver 3 in Creating the Next GT?

[JohnBM01]

Okay, GTPlanet. It was inevitable. I haven't seen a complete thread devoted to ToCA RD 3 related to GT. So I took the initiative and made my own thread. I talked about this game so much without giving it its own thread where ToCA RD 3 players can contribute to talking about Polyphony Digital can learn from ToCA Race Driver 3. It already incorporates a number of different ideas I've mentioned thus far in these forums. Now it's for you to decide what should be looked into. I'm talking about ANYTHING they can learn from Codemasters' little baby, "ToCA Race Driver 3." It can be graphics, AI (please clarify in what respects does GT5's AI need to have in comparison to ToCA RD 3), more championships, more cars to a track, class racing, ANYTHING in that game.

Since I mentioned so much in the past, my lips are sealed and my hands are tied for this post. Give this thread some life and my injection of data will follow. So let's do this!

WAIT! Before you post, I just want to share something. I come up with threads like this not to attack Gran Turismo or PD. I did a similar thread about what you all thought PD could learn from Codemasters. One person's reply really stuck to me. This person said that he's been playing video games for a decade or two, and threads like this one are pretty insulting. Not for the content, but what stuff like this means. I love the game series and still do. I am usually under the presumption that games can offer some items people wish were in higher-profile games. Believe me when I say I am a racing game veteran. There is nothing like creating a game MANY people can appreciate even when the company in question incorporates a feature ususally found in another game. I mean no offense to any one or any game when I do these "what can xxx learn from yyy?" threads. You probably should have played ToCA Race Driver 3 to know what it is you would like to see featured from this game into the in-the-works GT4. Only similar thread was about what ToCA RD 3 tracks should be in GT5. This is about more than just tracks here. So feel free to express yourself in this thread with your own ideas you think PD should pick up on or study in making GT5. As I've said before, you'll never know if your suggestions and comments will end up in a future GT game. Some of you may be surprised. So don't believe the "PD doesn't listen" mess.

You may now reply. So many here-and-there comments all has a new central thread in regards to "ToCA Race Driver 3" and the upcoming Gran Turismo 5.

 

[Tenacious D]

I haven't played through very much of Toca 3, but from what I have, I don't see anything that Polyphony can glean from what Codemasters did with their baby.

It seems like both Toca and GT have the same format, just that Toca treats EVERYTHING as if it were a championship series, and Toca has a linear "trunk" format you go through, in which the series of races you're entering gives you a choice of cars and racing class. At any point, you can do the other races, so you aren't stuck with following a branch to its end. But I don't see anything advantageous in this at all, because the races begin short and easier, and end up longer and more challenging with higher performance vehicles. So it's basically like GT but different.

If anything, Codemasters can learn a few things from Polyphony. One of the reasons I got Toca 3 was because of the driver and hoodcam positions, but neither one worked for me. I couldn't place the car on the track properly and all my lap times were much worse because of it, so it was back to behind the car view, sigh.

The car physics are all right, kind of like Forza and GT but different, damage is kind of cartoony but reasonable, but the steering is just frooked up. For whatever reason, the car doesn't want to steer until you get the wheel turned much more than you'd expect, and then all of a sudden, you're steering like mad! I made sure to look at the steering setup before I started racing, and took out the dead zone in the center, but it seems like it's still there! I had to set it so that steering was at 70% wheel rotation to get it to react anything like a car reacts, but it's still fishy going through turns because of the way it responds. It should be the opposite. These cars should be rather "twitchy" so that small steering movements should point the car in a different angle. What were they thinking?? Are the drivers set up for a controller?? Weird, just weird.

So, the short answer is, Polyphony can learn nothing. But I'll do a lot more racing and revisit this thread if I have a sudden revelation of Codemaster awesomeness.

 

[Dave A]

I'll tell you what PD can learn from ToCA RD3, they can have proper opponents not just your racing against this car. To expand on R3's opponents, GT5 should have a database of drivers in it each with their own stats and names so when you enter this championship you won't be racing this car and hat car, you'll be racing this guy and that guy in this car and that car. That would add an extra dimesion to the game because you'll see certain drivers being better than others, so when you race against driver A in a powerful car you might not be as concerned as racng against driver B in a less powerful car, because you know driver B is a better driver, each driver would have different properties governing their AI. It'd certainly help Kaz's human aspect he wants to improve on for the series.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I wouldn´t want famous names in GT. The important stuff is the cars, not the drivers. I would settle for decent AI, proper amounts of cars in races and damage for GT5 (if anything should be learnt from Codemasters).
And that being said, the important stuff is still the cars. I see gameplay as a necessary evil to get my hands on all the cars, but gameplay can of course be enjoyable, if it´s done correctly.

 

[amar212]

The biggest thing that PD can learn from TOCA series is that implementation of full damage for cars also means full-damage of gameplay and full-damage of sales and sales revenue because of all casual gamers outside.

BTW Wasn' thread like this one already existed? Tired to search but it rings a bell..

 

[GM]

Toca 3 Race Driver has much more aggressive AI, more AI, exterior and engine damage making it a racing simulator.

Gran Turismo 4 is a driving simulator.

 

[RedOak]

Canopy view...

 

[Tenacious D]

I'll tell you what PD can learn from ToCA RD3, they can have proper opponents not just your racing against this car.... GT5 should have a database of drivers in it each with their own stats and names so when you enter this championship you won't be racing this car and hat car, you'll be racing this guy and that guy in this car and that car, etc.

Good grief, and here I made several posts about this very thing! I need better sleep habits.

That is very true. Seeing a roster of drivers associated with specific racing teams did add a sense of being in a real race with real drivers that I haven't had in other games. The cinemas with that old Scott are really pretty cool and add to that sense of being in a small racing team.

I have a feeling that between Gran Turismo 5 and Forza 2 and their offspring, I'll never have need of another racing game. But we'll see. When Codemasters lifts Toca to the 128 bit plus level of the 360 and PS3, I'm sure that I'll want to at least see what they have going. Toca 3 may be a little squirrely in the steering department, but I think I can shift gears between the three games, Toca, GT and Forza, so that I can race Toca 3 to its completion, and see if that old Scott finally gives me a racing kiss at the end, yuck.

 

[evolutionight]

Ithink the biggest think PD can learn from Toca would be the engaging A.I.

 

[throttlehappy]

Ithink the biggest think PD can learn from Toca would be the engaging A.I.

i agree
that and ofcourse damage and better race tracks

 

[JohnBM01]

I wouldn't want overaggressive AI, though. I would especially not want to see a flawed flag system. Just breathe on a car and you get a ticky-tack foul on you. I sometimes raced in ToCA Race Driver 3 in being too aggressive in terms of cutting some corners or misjudging corners. They'll give you a penalty for it, but it's driver error sometimes. I know driver errors myself. I think I raced around the shorter variation of Barbagallo and usually misjudged the road. Don't any of you do this a time or two? I just think of these little black flags and warning flags as nuisances(?) at times. It's almost like Enthusia. You know, you have to be almost perfect to not get penalties against you. If Gran Turismo 5 adopts some flag system, just right the wrongs of ToCA RD3's system.

I too disagree that actual names are used. It's all about the drive and the cars. I don't need to be a certain racer or want to have licensed racers. I wouldn't want them in even if Kazunori Yamauchi or Ken Kutaragi put themselves in the game as playable (or in this case, race-able) characters. Gran Turismo is not a racing sim (don't take this the wrong way).

Keep on discussing this issue.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm not sure if you mean you don't want any licensed names like Michael Andretti in the game, or any named opponents at ALL. I like having a sense that I'm racing against a person, not an RC polygon box. I like naming my racer, and seeing his name in the rear window of my car. Of course this would be in an actual Career Mode. In Arcade or GT Mode, leave it as it is, but in a true Career Mode which I'm hopeful Kaz puts in GT5, I want named opponents in racing teams with specific paint jobs that show up from race to race. I want a load of stats to know how well I'm doing against them as I progress through the season. It would make me feel that I was competing in something.

I also want to add in that I hope Polyphony learns from Forza that the video look of GT4 and Toca 3 is last gen, and the real life colors of Forza are what Gran Turismo 5 should look like.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm going to be honest. I probably hated Forza's graphics about as much as any GT lover. But for a little bit, the graphics for Forza weren't all that bad. That especially applies to the different environments. It was an adjustment phase thing for me. It's a nice morning here in Houston right now, so I'm sure if I wanted to recreate a nice, sunny morning in H-Town, I'd be sure to reflect it all.

The sun sparkles (where the sun beats down on cars to where you see these little sparkles) would be a graphical deal I'd add to GT5, only improve on it. The thing I hated about "ToCA Race Driver 3" is that there were only two conditions to each track- sunny and rain. I actually missed being able to race in the evening time if I so chose. There hasn't been pure nighttime racing since "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing" in Codemaster's long history with the ToCA series. ToCA Race Driver 3 really has a pretty nice feel in terms of daytime racing. You'll see the car metal and the windows just glisten in the sun as they zoom around the track. A game I was impressed with in terms of the sun and shiny things sparkling around the track was Enthusia Professional Racing. Race around Rev City (Normal) or the Speediapolis Ring. Note how the sun beats down on the glass around the track. I was very impressed with Enthusia's sparkling of the sun on glass. I think this is a nice feature because begin to showcase a little usage of the sun around a race track. Then imagine if more chromed-up, old-school muscle cars find their way into GT5 and this use of sun sparkles are used. It would be a nice feature for in-race action and for Photo Mode. There was some GT5 demo deal where cars had these sun sparkles on top of the cars as they went by. I think if PD can take a look at a multitude of races and take note of all the different environmental aspects that take place, Gran Turismo should be king in this department.

PD should be able to clean up in the department of races themselves and the cars on the track. Now don't get me wrong. I'm talking about in terms of diversity and such in different racing events. The only real interesting race in terms of many different cars on the track at once can be found in the British GT series. There are 13 cars to a track in this series (with emphasis on your respective class), but it features the most DIFFERENT cars to a track than any other series in the game. You get the following cars in British GT (I'm probably going to forget some, so please set me straight):

TVR 400S
Ultima GTR(?)
Chevrolet Corvette C5
Noble 400 GTO
Vauxhall ??? (red car, similar to the Opel Speedster)
Morgan Aero 8
Vauxhall Monaro
Mosler MT900R

That's the most different cars to a track in ToCA RD 3. This would easily be a Forza-style grid since there are usually eight to a track in Forza. I always say that 20 to a track is a great number. Having 24 to a track, however, is almost perfect. It would be ridiculous to have a GTR-style grid where about 70 cars can be on the track (especially the Spa-Francorchamps endurance event). You know that I'm not about coming up with abuse of the PS3's power. I think 20 is a great number of cars to a track, and 24 is pretty perfect for me. I just think that if Codemasters comes up with ToCA Race Driver 4 for all major next-gen consoles, I think they will allow many more different cars to be on the track at once. Otherwise, we will just have a 1960s GT racing event with only Corvette L88's. Or imagine a 1970s GT Cup event with only the BMW M1 and the Lancia Beta Monte Carlo. This is something I hope PD can alleviate if they learn from Codemasters. Grand Touring and sportscar racing is a VERY diverse motorsport, which is one of the reasons why I love sportscar racing.

I finally want to close this post with a Class Racing sample. ToCA RD 3 features the 4WD cars and the British GT as class racing events. You win in your respective class as best as you can. Remember how I said that 24 would be a perfect number for cars on the track? Here is an example of how you can have multiple classes to a track and not have to have ungodly race fields: { http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...Lone+Star+Grand+Prix&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5 }. These were qualifying results from the ALMS' Lone Star Grand Prix in Houston held on May 13, 2006. This street course event had about 23 cars to a track. This is a very sizable number to fit about four different classes of sportscar racing. It would likely suffer because there are only going to be at least three or four cars to each class. Let's dissect the diversity of cars to a track for this event. The count of P1/P2/GT1/GT2 comes out to a count of 4/5/3/9. But it still remains a competitive field. A better idea would probably be to have 24 cars and six cars to a four-class field. Or just have 5 cars to a four-class, 20-car field. PD will have to be creative and smart in this department.

 

[GM]

All the events in Race Driver 3 need to be added into GT5 taking the cars from Race Driver 3 with it, I know it won't happen but if Polyphony Digital were to fuse everything of Toca Race Driver 3, make the graphics better, add it to GT4, make the GT4 graphics better, add a few hundred more cars,
then add more tracks, especilly the Top Gear Test Track. Then add more events, Drag Racing, Drifting Contests, Truck Racing and more.
Finally chuck in more aggressive AI and more AI in races.

That'll make the ultimate racing/driving game.
Welcome to Gran Turismo 5

Add all of that up to make the best Racing

 

[Ben Aracin]

"Its not a racing sim",&"It' a driving game". Its qoutes like that and thinking like that, that have allowed PD to release two lackluster sequals,period.
The things PD CAN learn from codemasters and there's a few.
1. That 21 cars destroys 6, even if the graphics have to suffer a bit.
That having an A.I. like in TOCA3 owns robot programmed time trial ghost cars made solid. (by the way not all the A.I. cars act all aggressive in TOCA3, just some of them, others back off and make quite an attempt at not hitting you). That is why i like TOCA3's A.I. the A.I. have different "personalities".
3. Engine/exhaust/tire screech/etc noise's can be done on the PS2 very well, so there's no excuse whatsoever for the underaverage sound GT3-4 ended up with.
4.The short movies with "rick" added to the feel that you were in a independant racing team. along with the chatter you got in your car while racing.
5. Giving your opponent cars names and team names, even if not real add to the "race" feel.
6. Wonders why PD couldn't do online withno damage nd six cars, when codemasters pulled it off with damage and 8 cars and them being asmaller company too.
7. Damage even if not fully real is a must for any car game that calls itself a sim.
8. And yes when the next GT comes out, it had better have focused on ALL those aspects and in John's other "what do you think would make GT better" topic" FIRST, then work on graphics.
9. The only thing i don't like about TOCA3 is the A.I., while they do get warnings and damaged out and penalties, it's not on the same level us human drivers get, and i DO NOT want to see that brought intoa GT game where the bot cars already cheat and non-react.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I've played TOCA RD3, and I've found some juicy tidbits that can be implemented in GT.

- A very engaging A.I. system, that made TOCA interesting to race your car at.

- Name brand (?) aftermarket parts for modifying your ride.

- Damage in TOCA is a little bit over exagerrated, the one in PGR3 is a little more subtle and refined.

- TOCA has an array of real life race tracks for us to enjoy, but the physics and graphics of TOCA is kinda so-so in my opinion.

- I agree with people here about the canopy view, although it feels claustrophobic somtimes, I like the PGR3 version better.

- SFX are the ace in TOCA, and PD should re-evaluate that on GT.

-> TOCA was a good game and all but after a few race league I got bored on it, because it has that repetitive gameplay and I don't fully enjoy the game entirely. (:

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

=EDIT= (Double Post)

 

[SavageEvil]

GT5 definately needs to add driver names to cars, it's a lot better to look at the championship leader boards and see a drivers' name rather than a car. They should have about 50 or so drivers, and each should have varying strengths and weaknesses, as well as types of cars they excel at and the like.

Toca 3 is still as cheesey with the whole story thing, it's wack, why do they continue to use it is beyond me. The whole thing is like a step up from Kyle Petty's No Fear Racing, which is not a really good step.

Not sure what else to take from toca 3, cept larger vehicle fields, I'd rather PD get some AI from EA, with Hot Pursuit 2, minus the handicapping of cars and cheating.

Really PD needs to fine tune what they have already, do their own thing, just make it as flawless as possible, just keep plugging away.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ I agree, PD needs to improve stuff that need improvents first like A.I, Online gaming, 10-20 car grid on races, weather effects, menu interaction, race leagues, engine power limitations, and saving your game during enduance races. Then PD can implement secondary things like adding more race tracks and refining them, implement damage physics, adding more and more cars (like getting LamPorFerra), license tests, and soundtracks. (:

 

[Tenacious D]

Forza 2 is only going to have 12 cars in races, but I have a feeling that the field will feel rather full. Just having 8 cars in Forza 1 feels like a substantial increase, especially with the way they tend to wage war on you. Meh. Still, I'm anticipating 20 cars in GT5.

I think EA is the last place you'd want to get bot A.I. This is apparently what went tragically wrong in Forza, as they used the smacktard code from Need for Speed Underwhelming. If anything, Polyphony should get their A.I. from a university or research center, or hire mad scientists from them to work with the team on developing their own.

Frankly, I can still live without damage. I'm really kind of tired of the same 5 or 10 people out of a million whining that without damage the world will end. It's tolerable in Toca 3 and Forza - except for Forza's ignorant rev limiter damage, but in case of catastrophic failure I just do over anyway. I do this because the racing environments in both Forza and Toca are not realistic enough to put me on the track like GT4 does, which causes driving issues from time to time that I won't put up with. Especially with Forza's idiot warbots and Toca's weird steering issues. So damage really is a non-issue, and undoubtedly is for 80% of the race gaming public.

Polyphony does need to work on a good damage system, but it should be last on the genda. I'm not about to wait a further two years on Gran Turismo 5 just because Polyphony has to make sure wrecking 1000 cars works realistically! GAH! Forget it this time around if that's the case, just give me my darn Gran Turismo.

Oh, and I have to stand up for Rick. I think he's pretty cool, and from time to time is downright funny. It's kind of cool feeling that I'm not in the racing biz alone in Toca 3. I'll have to see if I get bored with it like Vanishing Boy did, though so far it's plenty fun.

 

[atteiros]

-> TOCA was a good game and all but after a few race league I got bored on it, because it has that repetitive gameplay and I don't fully enjoy the game entirely. (:

hmmm.. it's the opposite for me. this is what made me stick with TOCA 3. I sometimes find that the different types of racing on TOCA made it hard to put down. GT4 for me feels like it's the same race over and over again. There are rally races, but they don't offer much in the range of TOCA. But a few other types of racing wouldn't hurt. It's a good thing GT5 might have Bikes in it though, that certainly caught my attention. 👍 👍

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> The wide array of racing leagues are one of the things that captivates me of renting TOCA RD3, but after racing some of these leagues I felt like I'm racing the same car over and over. And of course the story mode look like kinda whack. (:

 

[JohnBM01]

BenAracin, you seem to be very upset and angry with the GT series. I'm almost scared giving out threads like this and asking for your opinion on GT as it is. I do understand what you're not really happy (understatement?) with the GT series as it is and look for any sign of positive progress to give you reason to be happy. But that's okay. I value opinions like yours because you have your own views. You're actually the kind of person I'm looking for in terms of people making their own opinions of Gran Turismo games. That's why I make threads like these. We hope PD can look into our ideas, but even if we don't see our suggestions put into programming and code, we've still done the most important thing- get our voices across. I just want to get a collection of data going so that I can see what it is people don't like about the Gran Turismo series and look for ways to give the series the shot in the arm it needs (for those who think the series is substandard).

Tenacious D mentions that we've lived without damage in a GT game, so GT5 will be no different. Damage is "being considered" for GT5. My primary beef with damage is that it should never be an excitement or cheap thrills deal. I've always thought (my old-fashioned self anyways) that damage is like online play- optional. I will believe PD if they can't manufacture or program a sufficient damage model. Don't think that I'm just sucking up and sticking up for PD. I'm just speaking truthfully about this deal.

Many of us can agree that there are a number of different racing series in the game. Only thing I don't want to see is series consisting of realistic racing teams and drivers. GT was never about that and don't believe they will completely change the philosophy of the game in this respect. This is even though the most number of real racing cars in GT games is in the Super GT (formerly the JGTC). I don't think anyone has mentioned this with ToCA Race Driver 2 or 3, but I wonder who feels that as many different international series featured in the ToCA series, there's little of Super GT. Depending on how you feel, either (A) the series could use something like this for certain fans of Super GT (I'm one myself), or (B) the series doesn't need these race cars to "pollute" a ToCA Race Driver game. Even if PD had ALL the Super GT rights, I don't care much for racing an entire season that's true-to-form with licensed drivers. This game series (Gran Turismo I'm talking about) just made me realize that you didn't really need licensed drivers and actual series if the game isn't focused on a certain racing series. You race cars most of the time in GT games, but there are some non-racing deals such as Photo Mode. I've always followed GT as an "encyclopedia of cars." That's the way Kazunori Yamauchi describes the series. Some of you may recall that last year or so, Kazunori-san entered his first event to finish 4th, I believe. Maybe he could incorporate a bit into actual racing with this experience.

How would you describe the variety of events in ToCA Race Driver 3 compared to almost any of the four Gran Turismo games?

 

[SavageEvil]

Toca series tries to give you too much, while it may seem cool at first, it wears thin. I'm sorry but racing semi's is not only uncool, it's utterly boring, ice racing is silly when you decide to take street cars and do it. I only played a little of Toca 3 on Xbox, there is definately something up with the physics and steering. I tried to play simulation settings, for some reason my car decided that when I touch grass, it's like being in quicksand. And on simulation mode, acceleration from a standstill usually results in a spinout, guaranteed. I enjoyed Toca 2 for the most part, but I can't bring myself to play Toca 3, it just seems like the same thing over again, even new cars don't entice me in this game. For arguments sake, you can b&@ch that GT is the same thing, but it's the tuning, the courses and the actual different feel you get from the majority of autos. Nothing better than tuning a car to your liking and tearing around your favorite course.

 

[DuckRacer]

Really, here's the things that Gran Turismo can learn:

• Damage - Wheels come off, engines get damaged, damage affects aerodynamics, etc.
• AI - Some are aggressive, some are passive. It's a good variety, especially with 20 cars on the track.
• Cockpit views - 'Nuff said.
• Online Play - It really extends a game's life.

And I do agree with the comment that "it's called a driving simulator, not a racing simulator" it lets PD slack off. I know KY is a perfectionist, but even if there's half-assed damage, make it an option.

 

[Ben Aracin]

Yes JohnBM01, as far as being very upset and angry, no.
As for being very dissapointed and just tired of the same downgraded GT that's come out since GT1, yes.
I do agree on the not having teams to a point, GT should not become an all team only, but it should be an option.
I Think like in the needed hardcore mode there should be another kind of split where the option of remaining independant or joining a team with benefits and nonbenefits should apply, but part of he enjoyment i used to have was taking an ordinary car and going against other same cars to do what GT no longer does as they are more "art" than game anymore, is race.
Just imagine if GT4 would have had 20 cars on track and a more realistic physics (by realistic i mean modeled to use four tire patch contact points instead of whole car GT style), the game would have been a very much still played series.
I know folk who's only reason they bough GT3-4 is because they're buddies did just to "race against", it had nothing to do with how real it was, as they knew and admitted how godawful the physics were.
I can even give them the benefit of the doubt and say yes GT3 was a test on new hardware, but there was absolutely no excuse for the crap in GT4, none.
As for having names, yes it's a need to give the feeling your in a race.
Also add drivers in the cars, not ghosts shadows.
I would never have done anything more than rented GT4 but my woman got it for me without asking me first, only reason i play it is to play with her as it's her first GT, she kinda likes it but knows just what i do, it's not accurate or realistic, i'd take a more GT3 style handling than what we got.
I could go on and on but i won't.
I will also defend Rick from TOCA3, i kind of liked and enjoyed the small clips and the radio/com chatter as it also added to the feeling that your in a race.
Could it have been done better, sure, but it was an nice feature that added to the racing feel, instead of adding B-spec and photo mode that do nothing to help in adding to that feel.
As for thinking if GT needs to go all out on the pure race car style, then no, it doesn't but it would be a good replacement for those boring single make races, wouldn't it.

 

[Tenacious D]

Frankly Ben, I disagree with virtually everything you've said, and those who cling hardcore to one game or another. GTR acted like the car was poised on a spindle, as much as everyone hawks about its superior physics and handling. It felt floaty, disconnected, the view of the track was bad, the racing was so fast and furious that because I couldn't dial into the car or see turns coming up, it ended up being a frustrating mess. Plus I think Starforce ate my luggage somewhere, my PC has been kind of odd ever since I installed it.

Enthusia behaved like a game that had its physics hacked. The car didn't behave anything like a vehicle in real life. Taking a simple turn at slightly agressive speeds was a painful ordeal. And the tires were absolutely no help at all in determining when they had grip or not. In real life, tires start squealing when they still have good footing on the road, and you can ride this edge of acceptable grip around a turn, and if you're good, you can even take it further to slipping and still keep control. But these guys didn't give a peep until I was well on my way off the track and towards a wall. The Miata demo in the beginning really ticks me off, because it's patently clear that Konami digitized and down-resed driving video to make it look like in-game footage. You can't lie to me like that and think I'll just shrug it off with a game that flawed.

Toca 3 has THE WORST steering I have ever experienced, even worse than Enthusia. The tires don't start turning until you're well into turning the wheel, and then you start steering like nuts. So maneuvering a car through a field of competitors or taking a turn is quite a haphazard mess. The physics may be great or may just be okay, but how the heck could I know? I have to treat the wheel like an oversized controller! It HAS to be coded for a hand controller because nothing else makes sense. No one in their right mind would implement steering like this, so why did a supposedly pro-spec company do that to this crazy game?? Do they think no one with a console has a wheel controller?! What would be so hard about coding a driver for a wheel? For pete's sake...

Forza is the only other game I really enjoy - haven't tried Colin McRae or Richard Burns yet - but it has its own issues. Mainly the fact that the bots want to kill you! The game otherwise is great. The physics are cool, damage is decently implemented, the graphics are really good if a little frooked up in the framerate department, especially the environment reflections which are plain bad. But the selection of cars is terrific and modding the cars is even cooler than in Gran Turismo thanks to a great selection of body kits and a fantastic paint shop. You can't get a much more complete race mod setup without having a full race class conversion, which is the only thing missing. Having eight competitors in a race is actually cool too. But the smacktards won't race you without trying to bash you around like teenage drug casualties! Supposedly they're only supposed to do that if you drive completely trashy, but no. Just get a good launch and they want your head.

So, a handful of people come here and throw a fit over what I see are some pretty minor issues with Gran Turismo 4. I've heard that gripe about the four wheel contact drive before, but I drive my car around and it acts a lot like it does in GT. I watch replays, and I see those cars lean and bounce realistically when they hit curbs, and they behave like those four wheels have their own relationship with the road. Plus there's the fact that everyone acts like car driving is a precision process which is endlessly repeatable, which it definitely is not. If you take a car and drive it on the edge and do your best to loose control, each event is its own monster and behaves uniquely. That's just the nature of real life physics. So sometimes you can see that in certain circumstances GT4 is wrong, but if you tried to recreate the same thing with a car, anything could happen.

I guess some people just have to throw fits over everything. But I do think it's strange that the stuff I posted above, many of which are bad wrong things with those other games, no one has a problem with. Go figure.

 

[JohnBM01]

A small detail about ToCA RD 3 is that pounding the curbs can slightly damage your suspensions. I remembered doing the BMW Williams F1 Challenge (you HAVE to play that mode. Those cars are so freaking fast!) around the 8-lap Silverstone event in World Tour. After a while, the suspension's been beaten around a bit until the suspensions turned red in my heads-up display. My first taste with reality was when I had all the pro-sim aspects on, and my go-kart was spinning out crazily. Had a tough time getting it together, so I turned all of them off since I'm not a good driver with any hardcore settings enabled. Biggest blowout I had was when I did the BMW Williams F1 challenge when I did the Spa-Francorchamps event in World Tour. I led by as many as 59 seconds over 2nd Place! Everything is pretty nice in this game, just that the AI gets overaggressive in World Tour mode and maybe even Pro Career Mode. Like I can recall almost winning a World Tour event at Eastern Creek when someone spun me out in one of the turns mid-way. I ended up losing. The good thing about the game is that you can restart all the races you would-have-could-have-should-have won. That will be key unless you completely don't win. I think if you win, there's no need to restart. But if you lose, you should have the option to redo an event. You win, you advance. That's the way it should be unless you simply cannot win with the car and track and competition given. Some race series appear later in the season and are actually easier. The GT Tuning Cup was a b:censored: of a championship racing that Koenig GT-D. Think of a Lamborghini Diablo here, folks. That's what it looks like. But that thing is a no-handling no-talent that I'm supposedly stuck with and have to live with for the championship. This proved that some supercars are just no talents, yet some people love them so badly. This only applies to a few certain superexotics. I later re-entered the same series as I was given the Gemballa GTR750 Evo. This car was a great machine, but only if you brake earlier in the corners. It is still a solid car regardless. I won the series and unlocked it for Simulation Mode. Then the series appeared one last time and you get the best of the three cars- the Koenig GT. Think of a Ferrari 360 Modena with this car. It is beautiful, nice handling, smooth in corners, absolute best.

Don't think I'm trying to spoil the game. Just letting you know what to expect later on in the game.

 

[Tenacious D]

No, that does sound tasty.

I have to say that because of Toca's steering issues, I can handle only two or three races a day. I refuse to play it with a controller, especially since the XBox controller is a piece of poo. I had to quit Toca today when I went into the first MG Rally race and the twitchy (in a BAD way) steering made it almost impossible to follow the track. Boo.

I went straight back to GT4, and have been loving every minute of it, just fooling around with my cars on Infineon or Laguna. It's been so long, I had to readjust to everything, from the physics to my table clamped DF Pro - I have to hold my arms up now and it can get tiring after long stretches.

But it was like coming home again! I love this game to pieces! It puts me in the car like no other racing game I ever saw. I don't know what magic formula Polyphony perfected, but Kaz and his team have to get some kind of ultimate racing achievement award at some point. I'm beginning to honestly think that outside of a rare game like a Sega racer or Colin McRae Rally that I'll never want any racing games but Gran Turismo and Forza.

 

[MasterGT]

The one thing PD seems to have finally learned from ToCA is that it was a huge mistake to not release GT4 without on-line. Oh, gee, people play on-line? Really? Maybe we should test how it all works. I haven't played GT4 since I put ToCA 3 in the console (You see, I don't have trouble with the view or steering; believe me, if something was odd, I would be screaming about them, too. To be fair, I haven't progressed through ToCA 3 more since I started league racing on-line, either.) Playing against people is where it's at and Codemasters knew that for ToCA 2 and I am a bit surprised that it took all of you so long to say something about on-line in this thread. Maybe more of the posters were GT-only players or they have not gone on-line with ToCA and don't realise this yet.

PD already knows that six is not enough - they just didn't do anything about it. Even with ToCA 3's 8 grid size it's not enough for a small league race. Adjusting the grid size to match the track will be necessary in next-gen games, though. There is no point having 40-50 cars on a tiny track. Both devs will know this.

What PD and players can learn from ToCA on-line is that we really need is good support for a mic. What we need, too, is voice and sound out through the headphones, so both companies still need to learn this (although I found an elegant and cheap solution - ear-buds). Playing on-line at night sometimes requires silence in the room.

One thing that PD can learn from ToCA 3 experience is that they had better not even think of using GameSpy, regardless of SONY's agreement with them! Man, that service sucks!

I'm not sure what on-line features GT On-line will have, but I hope PD learned that league racing features are a must. ToCA isn't all that bad once the scrutineers know what the game has for them, but it still falls short of having excellent league support. No on-line replays, no saving on-line replays, poor stats, etc. What CM forgot and PD did not is that we need custom set-ups on-line!

Damage: I've said it before. PD does not need to waste time modelling damage for every car. They only need to consider doing it for some or all race cars. PD should know this, too. How good damage looks is immaterial, to me. I'm a little too busy driving to care if the crumples aren't exactlyright.

What both devs can learn from each other is that new is not always better. I'm not sure what makes these guys think that change is always a good thing (after all, they did put those faulty new ideas in the new versions - they must think they were better!). Players of both games know what worked in the last one and then get disappointed by slight differences that blow it. Why can't the devs know that, too?

On the other hand, GT still sticks with bad AI and fixed driving lines. You'd think that after three versions of the same stupid AI antics that they'd finally get our drift and improve it. They can't be that oblivious (yeah, we all know why they do it, but that's not good enough). At least with ToCA there is a bit more variation, so PD can also learn a bit about randomness from CM. It livens up a game.

Let's all hope the PD learned that waiting for new hardware so long was a problem - a bigger problem for customers & fans. Coming out with 13 one-brand demos was no compensation for us players. CM pumped out two reasonably different versions of ToCA3 in about 1.5 years (if my memory serves me well).

Let's also hope that SONY, in general, learned that supporting all regions in a similarly good manner helps a lot with customer relations. CM released a ToCA 3 demo everywhere (except in the US/Xbox, I think). What did SCEA do for us in Region 1? No Concepts, no Prologue and no GT4 demo and one tight-fisted Toyota demo (and not in Canada, either)! What? Our money isn't good enough for them? They thought we were going to be "confused", for crying out loud! SONY has a lot to learn about customer support.

PD seems to think that 40-50 similar versions of the same car model is OK. CM doesn't have much car repetition beyond a few similar models of, say, the Clio. Not all cars in a class may act or handle differently, but at least the garage doesn't have a different version of the same car so that we could drive a different one a day for nearly two months straight! Now, ToCA does has some problems with having so many different liveries of the same car...

Both devs know the PS2 limitations. They just went around them in different ways. PD went with better graphics and CM went with better sound. Both games get the job done, but I hope both devs get the message that we had better get both better graphics and better sound.

Talking about graphics, both devs need to learn that people, especially older players which gravitate to driving sims, need to be able to read the numbers on the screen. GT4 was really bad with its small digits, but ToCA 3's pale display wasn't all that much better, either. They need to add contrast around the numbers and don't use a lot of red, which bleeds on fuzzier CRTs.

While PD is pretty good at mimicking nature and getting track layouts reasonably right, CM made the mistake of modifying some of their real tracks. CM says it was for the better - players disagreed. People who know the tracks know when they are not right in-game. People who don't know the tracks are oblivious to the differences and that's what the devs count on.

I also hope that PD has learned that they don't have all of the right answers. After all, ToCA 3 has some pretty good stuff in it, especially more fun that GT 4. While some aspects of GT have been good to excellent, over the years, PD had better learn to clean up their act even more. Next-gen games are going to put a lot of pressure on PD to produce and we are going to be watching how they perform like a hawk! They will disappoint many current players if they don't measure up to some of the independent companies around now (such as CM) and new ones that what will be pumping out some pretty stiff competition for them, in the future.

Being put on a pedestal is one thing. Staying there and actually earning their righteous position is another. We don't want them to stay up there without trying (GT4 was a beta) and ToCA has been the only realistic competition for GT, til now. ToCA has been a good example for PD as to how to do some things right, better or worse than what is in GT (not that PD needs all that much help... they just needed the PS3).

Cheers,

MasterGT