Why No Expert World Events?

[ZeeStig]

As probably most of you noticed, since Polyphony removed RBE from the expert level races, there were no more world events at this level. This is pretty sad, specially for us NTSC drivers, since our races have been pretty empty. With this latest event's update (which I really liked), it has been even worse, because people have been spread out in different events. For the great 10 lapper around Suzuka, the most I've got were 4 cars in a race.

One possible explanation is some sort of difference in performance between the different regions, i.e. PAL version being faster than NTSC or vice-versa. (I've heard something like that in the past). For players with both versions, is that true? If so, could you give me a ballpark of the difference in time in a lap, for Suzuka 650pp (or any other event you're currently running)?

If someone in Polyphony is reading this, I'd like to say that I don't mind loosing to faster drivers (even if it's unfair advantage), but I do mind racing against 2 people that will quit in the middle of the race, if I'm 2 secs/lap faster than them.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Perhaps PD found some problems in the world events, so they might've removed them until they solve the problems. I remember I had a lot of trouble connecting to the last world event and I'm sure I wasn't the only one, this could be one of the reasons the world events haven't returned yet.

 

[ZeeStig]

That's a possibility, but Beginner and Intermediate levels still have World Events. Would it be something specific to Expert level? And "coincidentally" it started happening when RBE was removed...

 

[LinPark]

I discussed this at length in another thread awhile back - I still cling to the fact that turning off the RBE has caused them to remove the WE from Expert events for some reason. No one else believed me at the time but history is slowly proving me right. Would be an interesting poll to see who would rather have the RBE back if we could get World Event back with it.

 

[Jack]

No RBE 👍 Everyone can buy PAL

 

[Kryz11]

I just race online last night.
PRO level AWD event. And guess what? I live in USA, I have US version, and I raced with France, Brazil, and Germany...

Hmm seems it is on.

 

[patriotzero]

i just online race too.Host quitted but race continue..There was only me in the race..Maybe i was host ..Or dedicated servers!!!

 

[Jack]

I just race online last night.
PRO level AWD event. And guess what? I live in USA, I have US version, and I raced with France, Brazil, and Germany...

Hmm seems it is on.

Tbh I saw a [US] on 650 the other night but just thought he had a PAL copy. I know the normal faces on GTP who race PAL and arent suprised when I see them, but had never heard of this guy before.....

Any NTSC up for a test?

 

[ZeeStig]

I discussed this at length in another thread awhile back - I still cling to the fact that turning off the RBE has caused them to remove the WE from Expert events for some reason. No one else believed me at the time but history is slowly proving me right. Would be an interesting poll to see who would rather have the RBE back if we could get World Event back with it.

Ops, for some reason I couldn't find the thread you've discussed this when I first searched the archives. Will try it again. I completely agree with you. It's the third set of events, at this set there 5 different races, none of them World Events.

As for removing RBE to get the WE back, in principle I'd be against. But... with 5 different expert events, having one without RBE doesn't sound so bad. But then, who on PAL would join the RBE world event? Very few GTPers, probably.

 

[ZeeStig]

No RBE 👍 Everyone can buy PAL

LOL. I guess that will be the solution. I'll start looking for a PAL game on e-Bay.

 

[ZeeStig]

I just race online last night.
PRO level AWD event. And guess what? I live in USA, I have US version, and I raced with France, Brazil, and Germany...

Hmm seems it is on.

Well, I thought that the fact that there are no World Events on Expert level wasn't up for discussion. Let's see... every World Event has "World Competition event" written in the event specification. The Expert AWD doesn't have it. I've joined the event on the 25th, and then today. No Europeans, no Australians, no Japaneses, only Americans and Canadians.

Any chance you have a PAL copy?

 

[LinPark]

Tbh I saw a [US] on 650 the other night but just thought he had a PAL copy. I know the normal faces on GTP who race PAL and arent suprised when I see them, but had never heard of this guy before.....

Any NTSC up for a test?

I'll test it with you today if you want. I think I know what the outcome is going to be though.

 

[NLxAROSA]

No one else believed me at the time but history is slowly proving me right.

Can you elaborate more on the proof that you are speaking of? As far as I can see, it's just a coincidence. Unless you know something I don't of course. What exactly makes you think the two are tied together? I have a hard time coming up with a reason why there would be a relationship between the two. All we officially know is that they can flick RBE on/off like a switch.

 

[LinPark]

I have absolutely NO hard proof whatsoever. However, I've been in software development for over 20 years and I have seen companies make some colossal software blunders. Where technology is involved there are seldom "coincidences". The hard fact is that since turning off RBE we have not had a single Expert world event and in that time they have performed 2 online event updates - imagine being on a jury and being presented with those facts.

I still hold to the belief that we will see a software update before we see another non-RBE World Event. If I am wrong, then let PD prove it. If I'm not wrong, I still offer my services to them at a fair price preferrably paid in Yen.

Of course, I used to believe that the PAL disk had some boost feature in it that allowed those guys to do faster TT's too. One might think it a coincidence that most of the fast drivers are in the PAL region.

 

[Jack]

Me & Russ did a few test last night and.....................







It didnt work. Me and Russ found that on 650 WE isnt there!

 

[LinPark]

Me & Russ did a few test last night and.....................

It didnt work. Me and Russ found that on 650 WE isnt there!

I figured - I've seen numerous PAL nation's represented in the NTSC regions before - I guess those are the slow PAL guys.

 

[NLxAROSA]

The hard fact is that since turning off RBE we have not had a single Expert world event and in that time they have performed 2 online event updates - imagine being on a jury and being presented with those facts.

It means nothing. We haven't had any 800PP Expert events since that exact same date either. But I doubt those two are linked together either.

It probably will take a software update to bring back the WE; not because it is tied to RBE, but because it suffered from lag and connection issues for many people.

And I seriously hope that nobody gets convicted based on events that can only be tied together by personal assumption only.

As for the PAL guys being faster: that assumption is not that illogical, since there ís a difference in framerate between NTSC and PAL. So a timing issue could possibly lead to small differences in TT. It could also be verified quite easily, by letting a very consistent person do a large amount of TT's with an NTSC copy and do the same with a PAL copy and compare the results.

Oh BTW, I have developed software for over 20 years myself and my experience tells me that coincidence (a.k.a. a situation that nobody would expect) is very often the cause of errors (e.g. situation a,b,c,d and e all occuring at the same time, which nobody anticipated).

 

[ZeeStig]

Can you elaborate more on the proof that you are speaking of? As far as I can see, it's just a coincidence. Unless you know something I don't of course. What exactly makes you think the two are tied together? I have a hard time coming up with a reason why there would be a relationship between the two. All we officially know is that they can flick RBE on/off like a switch.

Well, I think we can talk about circumstantial evidence that the two (namely: RBE on/off, and World Event present/not present) are linked. Asking for "proof" is a valid point, but I'm afraid it's impossible for me, or Linpark to provide it to you, because we don't have access to the source code, and we don't have access to whoever is in charge of this decision, so I'm trying to argue based on circumstances.

I think that what makes the argument compelling is not only the timing of the occurrences (RBE off --> no world events), but also the fact that it repeated itself three times. So I could buy the "coincidence" argument at the first time, maybe at the second, but after the third update (with 5 events in it) and still no world events... that's hardly a coincidence.

 

[LinPark]

Oh BTW, I have developed software for over 20 years myself and my experience tells me that coincidence (a.k.a. a situation that nobody would expect) is very often the cause of errors (e.g. situation a,b,c,d and e all occuring at the same time, which nobody anticipated).

I think the situation that nobody expected is in fact the turning off of RBE while Situation A (RBE) and Situation B (World Event) were built to occur at the same time.

Clearly they can change the PP ratings of expert events as we have several levels to choose from today, so I think the comment about 800PP not being available doesn't hold true. I for one have never seen a 706PP event since GT5 came about but to say that one is not possible is reaching quite a bit.

Also, please remember that World Events still exist for Beg and Int with RBE so if it really is a lag issue it would be effecting those and they would have turned them off also.

My comment about the jury was simply to state that if you look at the pure facts and remove all emotion from the equation, the evidence is quite interesting. I would never suggest we physically convict someone on an assumption - there is enough of that going on right here in the Press and our legal system today so I wouldn't dream of adding to it.

Honestly, I still stand behind the statement that I think they do have a bug in the code and its not a simple one to fix or they would have done it already. It's all conjecture at this point, but it makes for interesting conversation.

 

[ZeeStig]

It means nothing. We haven't had any 800PP Expert events since that exact same date either. But I doubt those two are linked together either.

Err... I'm assuming you're joking here.

It probably will take a software update to bring back the WE; not because it is tied to RBE, but because it suffered from lag and connection issues for many people.

I like this argument. It's certainly possible that other technical issues are the reason for the absence of World Events. But against that we have the fact that Beginner and Intermediate levels still have World Events, so what gives?

It's reasonable to assume that and event without RBE would lead to less processing, because there would be no compensating factors to the physics, but that's a lot of speculation...

And I seriously hope that nobody gets convicted based on events that can only be tied together by personal assumption only.

Again, trying some circumstantial evidence here... since hard proof is not an option.

As for the PAL guys being faster: that assumption is not that illogical, since there ís a difference in framerate between NTSC and PAL. So a timing issue could possibly lead to small differences in TT. It could also be verified quite easily, by letting a very consistent person do a large amount of TT's with an NTSC copy and do the same with a PAL copy and compare the results.

Just a disclaimer... the point of this thread is not to justify why PAL users are usually faster than NTSC (I don't want to sound like a whiny driver that try to find excuses in other than my driving -- I know I'm not as fast as the Div 1 guys, for instance... I've seen some of their laps, they are just better than me).

Having said that: I would love to see the results of this experiment. I'm working on buying a PAL copy of the game. I'm not consistent by any means, but I am persistent. I believe a high enough number of laps for a number of different cars and tracks on each system should give reasonable results.

Oh BTW, I have developed software for over 20 years myself and my experience tells me that coincidence (a.k.a. a situation that nobody would expect) is very often the cause of errors (e.g. situation a,b,c,d and e all occuring at the same time, which nobody anticipated).

Yeah, same here (ok, not 20 years, but some good 10 years). And I believe what we're trying to do is to guess which situations a,b,c,d occurred to lead to no World Events at Expert level. Might be a pointless exercise, given the lack of information that we have, but I claim that we have a reasonable hypothesis.

 

[LinPark]

I think we have stumbled on the answer - the PAL drivers are faster so they added RBE into the World Events so the NTSC drivers could keep up. Without the RBE, there is no way possible for NTSC to compete with PAL so why should we have a World Event in the first place.

Sorry, but I had to throw that one out there and given the GTP Registry Division landscape I might actually be able to prove this one - can someone please start putting together an unbiased jury?

EDIT: Wouldn't a non-RBE event be faster from a processing standpoint? With the cars spread out more on the track, the collision engine would have alot less work to do so I would think a non-RBE World Event would be an easier server load than a World Event with RBE.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Also, please remember that World Events still exist for Beg and Int with RBE so if it really is a lag issue it would be effecting those and they would have turned them off also.

Fair enough. Still might be a server issue and they just eased off just enough to make it work for the lower PP events. Or the WE event didn't draw enough attention. Or several other reasons.

Err... I'm assuming you're joking here.

Hope you're not offended, but no. If I look at the facts only, it's exactly the same situation. 30th october was the last of the 800PP events, and so it was of the RBE and WE events.

I like this argument. It's certainly possible that other technical issues are the reason for the absence of World Events. But against that we have the fact that Beginner and Intermediate levels still have World Events, so what gives?

Fair argument. Still, there are plenty of other possible causes for a WE not being present at this moment. Most likely (to me anyway) other events being more popular.

Again, trying some circumstantial evidence here... since hard proof is not an option.

No problem, it's all we have to go by at this moment, so it's a place to start.

Just a disclaimer... the point of this thread is not to justify why PAL users are usually faster than NTSC

No, but the reason I responded to it is that there are factual differences between the two and they can be verified if you wanted, which makes it a different case to the WE/RBE connection. Even though I hope serverside timing is independent of the client (but some developers have been known to tie the two together in the past).

We simply cannot verify the RBE and WE being tied together at this moment. So I'm quite happy to indulge in some discussions and making some assumptions, but I'm not too wild on drawing any conclusions just yet.

 

[ZeeStig]

Honestly, I still stand behind the statement that I think they do have a bug in the code and its not a simple one to fix or they would have done it already. It's all conjecture at this point, but it makes for interesting conversation.

My fear is that this problem is not related to an specific bug, but rather a design "flaw" (or necessity) in order to optimize the graphics of the game. I believe somehow the physics and graphics engine are so tied up together that it's just hard to tweak parameters to make it go away. (Ok, now this is becoming just crazy and baseless speculation -- please disregard).

 

[LinPark]

My fear is that this problem is not related to an specific bug, but rather a design "flaw" (or necessity) in order to optimize the graphics of the game. I believe somehow the physics and graphics engine are so tied up together that it's just hard to tweak parameters to make it go away. (Ok, now this is becoming just crazy and baseless speculation -- please disregard).

Interestingly enough all of this is tied to a feature brand new to the GT title - online racing - something that would be very difficult to volume test while covering every possible scenario globally. Unless you released something, say call it a Prologue.

I'm just shocked that someone came up with RBE in the first place. Surely, that engine which does on-the-fly adjustments during every race is taking up quite a bit of resources to keep things "fair". I wonder what brainstorming session at PD resulted in RBE and why everyone involved thought it would be a worthwhile thing to implement.

 

[ZeeStig]

Fair enough. Still might be a server issue and they just eased off just enough to make it work for the lower PP events. Or the WE event didn't draw enough attention. Or several other reasons.

I disagree that the World Events didn't draw enough attention. They were by far the most attended events (at least among NTSC events), and if I remember correctly, they were the most popular for the tuning garages as well. (I mean more tunes for the world events than the others)

Hope you're not offended, but no. If I look at the facts only, it's exactly the same situation. 30th october was the last of the 800PP events, and so it was of the RBE and WE events.

Not offended at all! I just thought the existence of an specific PP numbered race, and the existence of a world event are such different issues, that they were not related at all. But let me try to argue against that theory, then.

I assume you're not talking about the number 800 specifically, but rather a high pp race (as Linpark pointed out, the absence of 706pp race doesn't mean that it's not possible -- so the case is simply weak). So the argument to prove that a high pp race + non RBE is possible is the newly created event of Ferrari around Fuji. And maybe the previous event of a Citroen GT around Suzuka? (but that was on S1 tires, so maybe not).

In any case... my point is that I'm not presenting just facts, but a reasonable theory (on top of those facts) that would be relating cause and effect. Namely, if there are differences in performance between regions, than RBE off is essentially meaningless, because there would be another sort of RBE, but with a constant bias against one of the regions.

Fair argument. Still, there are plenty of other possible causes for a WE not being present at this moment. Most likely (to me anyway) other events being more popular.

Let me reassure you: world events were by far the most popular among the NTSC events. And, in fact, they still are... judging by the attendance in Intermediate and Beginner events.

Besides, now that they have 5 events... come on, at least one could be a world event. And then again, why the different treatment on Beginner and Intermediate?

No, but the reason I responded to it is that there are factual differences between the two and they can be verified if you wanted, which makes it a different case to the WE/RBE connection. Even though I hope serverside timing is independent of the client (but some developers have been known to tie the two together in the past).

Good. I do want to test it, and I will. I just have to get a PAL game. In the meantime, Linpark, you have the two versions, don't you? Have you noticed any difference in your lap times at all? (not requesting any scientific study here... just personal opinion).

We simply cannot verify the RBE and WE being tied together at this moment. So I'm quite happy to indulge in some discussions and making some assumptions, but I'm not too wild on drawing any conclusions just yet.

Sure! It's nice to have someone arguing for the "other side"... otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion at all.

 

[LinPark]

Good. I do want to test it, and I will. I just have to get a PAL game. In the meantime, Linpark, you have the two versions, don't you? Have you noticed any difference in your lap times at all? (not requesting any scientific study here... just personal opinion).

Indeed I do have both copies of the game - I originally did this because I wasn't happy having just one World Event to race my PAL colleagues in - little did I know how helpful having that PAL copy would be over the last 2 months.

As far as any differences, it is very difficult for me to tell and I don't believe that there is - my driving is so inconsistent right now that I can't honestly determine if any differences exist. The best way would be to have a very, very consistent driver test it out. When I first got the PAL disc, I did start turning in faster times but then I went back to NTSC and became faster yet again. We would need to have someone who is at the limit of their driving ability drive both discs (in a blind test if possible) and then check the results.

While I have the attention of such vocal and experienced software folks, I'd like to also ask you why you think they built it such that replays are region specific? I can't possibly imagine anything stored in the data files themselves that would force them to only be playable by one version of the game. And, I would also point out that you can download any of the top 10 replays and watch them no matter what version they were created by. Seems like another piece of evidence that points to an interesting software development life cycle practice that has been implemented questionably.

Great chattin with you guys about this subject by the way. 👍

 

[ZeeStig]

I'm just shocked that someone came up with RBE in the first place. Surely, that engine which does on-the-fly adjustments during every race is taking up quite a bit of resources to keep things "fair". I wonder what brainstorming session at PD resulted in RBE and why everyone involved thought it would be a worthwhile thing to implement.

I don't see RBE as such a resource hog. It not necessarily needs to be done on-the-fly (there can be sampling in the data), and it's just some adjustments to grip and power, that could be determined by a simple formula. I think Kazunori Yamauchi said something like that in a interview. But I believe that with RBE means more processing than without RBE.

RBE is actually something quite common in arcade racers to keep the races close, and it actually existed in GT4 (and it was optional, mind you). I used to race with a friend, split screen, and we quickly noticed that a driver way behind was turning stunning lap times. We went to the options page and disabled this nonsense immediately.

But... I could make a case for RBE in short races (such as the ones we have online), where the starting grid is determined sort of arbitrarily. Each grid position gives a disadvantage of more or less a second from the start. Add to that the time to deal with traffic -- a good driver that starts in the front will most likely run away with the victory leaving no time for other drivers to catch up. I'm used to this because I refuse to subtract PP to start in the front.

This is because I like this 10 lap event so much. IMO, the solution to the problem above is not RBE, but to have longer races, with qualifiers if possible (or even two rounds, reversing grid positions in the second... that would be great).

 

[RussRobit]

If you get a top 10 in TT online and you save your replay on your ps3, would you be able to compare the two to find any differences?

 

[Horde_R35]

No RBE 👍 Everyone can buy PAL

Exactly the point dude I have some good friends from the US myself like ZERODUCK for example (one of the fastest i ever raced), my dear friend GTP_Andrewyhy from HK (super fast too) and i cant race them no more... I just wanna say it sucks

 

[ZeeStig]

As far as any differences, it is very difficult for me to tell and I don't believe that there is - my driving is so inconsistent right now that I can't honestly determine if any differences exist. The best way would be to have a very, very consistent driver test it out. When I first got the PAL disc, I did start turning in faster times but then I went back to NTSC and became faster yet again. We would need to have someone who is at the limit of their driving ability drive both discs (in a blind test if possible) and then check the results.

Cool. It's good to know that you haven't noticed any difference, and that it improved your driving. 👍

While I have the attention of such vocal and experienced software folks, I'd like to also ask you why you think they built it such that replays are region specific? I can't possibly imagine anything stored in the data files themselves that would force them to only be playable by one version of the game. And, I would also point out that you can download any of the top 10 replays and watch them no matter what version they were created by. Seems like another piece of evidence that points to an interesting software development life cycle practice that has been implemented questionably.

All right, more wild speculation ahead (but you asked for it this time ):
If we assume that the replay data is in some way connected to the physics of the game, e.g. it records the human inputs, and actually replays the lap with the original input. And assume that there are slight differences in the physics from region to region. Then it is quite likely that the same input would result in different laps for different physics/regions.

But then how can we watch the top ten replays regardless of region given the above assumptions? Through some offline processing that would do the proper conversion (on inputs, or physics, I don't know) that would allow the replay to behave in the same way. (ok, this part is quite weak, I'll admit, but it's the best I could come up with)

To see if this is a reasonable theory, we could do the following: record a top 10 lap (shouldn't be hard with an obscure car/circuit combination).
1) Check file sizes. If you record a lap on NTSC and its file size is bigger than PAL, it indicates that PAL needs more info that could indicate some post processing. Of course the same test switching regions would be necessary.
2) Check how much it takes to propagate in different regions.
3) Actually download and watch in both regions and try to find differences (this would probably be boring / really hard to find).

Great chattin with you guys about this subject by the way. 👍

The pleasure is mine. 👍