Why no love for Diesels, PD?

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Or come to that, same question for Turn 10, Slightlymad Studios, etc...

OK as a pure driving experience, I guess there is a preference for regular gas/petrol combustion, but as the "Real Driving Simulator" in particular, it's a little surprising. And at least PD wouldn't have to worry about the engine sounds being underwhelming :mischievous:
 
Here's one ;)

image.png
 
...He should've posted this thread in the Q&A forum then. Oh wait...

Sorry what? It's not a question about the game, more a query about the direction of PD and other developers.

Because this is a racing game and performance diesels are an extremely recent thing.

I'm not much of a fan of diesel cars myself but when you weigh up how many rotary cars make an appearance...admittedly they have tended to be performance-orientated, but it would be kinda fun to have a handful of diesel cars too. Also GT is supposedly a "driving" sim not purely racing sim surely? Hence several cars with less than 50hp.
 
Those aren't diesels.
You're right, my bad. :)

The Tank car has a Continental AV1790 tank engine, wich was most commonly used as a diesel, but on closer inspection, I can see its the AVDS-1790-2A engine, not the usual AV-1790-7C enigne, so yeah, it's run on petrol (80 octane), my bad
The Pajero uses Mitsubishi's 6G74 engine, wich is, as you say, a gasoline engine, I forgot how old it was, I was just going on what engine the modern incarnation of that car has, wich is a V6 turbodiesel.


Are any of the Chev or dodge trucks diesel's..?
nope.
 
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Generally, most performance Diesels in the real world have gasoline counterparts that are usually already in the game and have better performance.

The VW GTI and Ford Focus ST come to mind.
 
Because Diesels are not performance stuff :

- Same displacement and aspiration ? Gasoline gets you up to twice HP.
- Same HP ? Engine costs and weights more.
- Less reliable.
- Low RPMs, which are not meant for performance.

The only reason you get the 120D is because it was part of a promotional GT demo made for BMW for I-don't-remember-which international motor show, so they kept it there.

Then, the LMP cars are marketing diesel and using gas-oil, but they don't fit in the core Diesel principle by definition : 908, R10 and R18 engines all have ignition spark plugs. They're basically gasoline engines running very high compressions on gasoil - which seems enough for most people to buy the marketing.
 
I'm not much of a fan of diesel cars myself but when you weigh up how many rotary cars make an appearance...admittedly they have tended to be performance-orientated, but it would be kinda fun to have a handful of diesel cars too. Also GT is supposedly a "driving" sim not purely racing sim surely? Hence several cars with less than 50hp.

It's a track driving simulator, and so far it's mainly about speed. There are some low power cars, but sadly they are not used for much.
 
Less Reliable? Maybe so will all the emissions diesel has to bear these days. But in the context of a game it is totally irrelevant. Especially considering you can lap old reliable 2J forever bouncing off the limiter without the car doing anything but losing a little power and loosening up body wise. Totally reasonable...
 
My Mondeo 2.2 ST tdci is in the same emissions/tax band as my wife's Focus petrol 1.6 zetec, also (baring in mind I've had it chipped up to 200bhp) I've had 147mph out of the old girl which is the roughly the same as the ST220 petrol. Also in real life that BMW 120d is quicker than the 118i petrol variant.
 
All good points. Just wondered what the torque curve would feel like, and how they would sound, forgot about the little BMW actually, but must admit it's unlikely I would mark them as faves.
 
Because Diesels are not performance stuff :

- Same displacement and aspiration ? Gasoline gets you up to twice HP.
- Same HP ? Engine costs and weights more.
- Less reliable.
- Low RPMs, which are not meant for performance.

The only reason you get the 120D is because it was part of a promotional GT demo made for BMW for I-don't-remember-which international motor show, so they kept it there.

Then, the LMP cars are marketing diesel and using gas-oil, but they don't fit in the core Diesel principle by definition : 908, R10 and R18 engines all have ignition spark plugs. They're basically gasoline engines running very high compressions on gasoil - which seems enough for most people to buy the marketing.

That was brilliantly explained. Thanks for the class.

BUT.................. it would definitely be interesting. Check this out:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobil...stest-diesel-powered-vehicles.html/?a=viewall


Of course, knowing PD's MO, they'd be slower/cheaper clones. Also, upgrading and tuning the engine would have to be completely different, yes? Or disabled. It would be a mess.
 
I think in the context of a racing game the petrol alternative will always be more appealing. Diesel can be quick, but it is rarely light. That extra weight on the nose is not desirable at 10/10ths.
 
Less Reliable [...] But in the context of a game it is totally irrelevant.

True. In GT6 context is does not really matter.

My Mondeo 2.2 ST tdci is in the same emissions/tax band as my wife's Focus petrol 1.6 zetec, also (baring in mind I've had it chipped up to 200bhp) I've had 147mph out of the old girl which is the roughly the same as the ST220 petrol. Also in real life that BMW 120d is quicker than the 118i petrol variant.

Yay, top speed. Doesn't mean a lot. There are 130hp cars which can reach that. How fast do you get there compared to the ST ? Is your front axle as agile as a ST's ?

As for the BMW comparison, it's also true in GT6 (both tested in my Time Trial experiments) - although the difference isn't huge. But keep in mind both have similar displacement, but the diesel is turbocharged. FIA regulations usually give a displacement coefficient between x1.4 and x1.7 for turbocharged engines compared to petrol ones. Which would make the 120D an equivalent of something between 2.8l and 3.4l ... Same year model, same manufacturer, there's the M3 E46 which fits in, with a naturally aspirated petrol 3.2 delivering 340+ hp. Or I could point you towards the numerous turbocharged 2.0l petrol engines chilling around 300 hp figures. Heck, you can even find naturally aspirated 2.0 engines that are more powerful (SR20VE, K20A, F4R...)

That 120i is not built and sold as a sports car. But then, you have the 130i you could order with an M sports pack which came out one or two years later that will torch the top-tier diesel 1-series BMW. And even with a 3.0 inline-six, it is still lighter than the diesel one.

As for taxes, emissions laws are ******** in EU, clearly favoring the diesels for years to support local industries (while Japan banned them in cities for decades because it was health threatening, which might also be a reason as pointed out by @Huks ). Even with the VW scandal, they managed to actually say they'd raise the limits for diesels, because the poor chaps couldn't deal with them.
 
Current Diesel Cars in GT6

The cars shown in the list below display the current diesel cars that are included it GT6. As most of them are Racecars will we be receiving any more diesel cars in the near future?

Audi R10 TDi, 2006
Audi R10 TDi Stealth Model, 2006
Audi R18 Prototype, 2011
Audi R18 TDi 15th Aniversary Edition, 2011
Audi R18 TDi (Audi Sports team Joest), 2011
BMW 120d, 2004
Jay Leno Tank Car, 2003 (?Diesel?)
Mazda KUSABI, 2003 (?Diesel?)
Peugeot HDi FAP Base Model, 2010
Peugeot HDi FAP - Team Oreca Matmut, 2010
Peugeot HDi FAP - Team Peugeot Total, 2010
 
Current Diesel Cars in GT6

The cars shown in the list below display the current diesel cars that are included it GT6. As most of them are Racecars will we be receiving any more diesel cars in the near future?

Audi R10 TDi, 2006
Audi R10 TDi Stealth Model, 2006
Audi R18 Prototype, 2011
Audi R18 TDi 15th Aniversary Edition, 2011
Audi R18 TDi (Audi Sports team Joest), 2011
BMW 120d, 2004
Jay Leno Tank Car, 2003 (?Diesel?)
Mazda KUSABI, 2003 (?Diesel?)
Peugeot HDi FAP Base Model, 2010
Peugeot HDi FAP - Team Oreca Matmut, 2010
Peugeot HDi FAP - Team Peugeot Total, 2010

As has already been said, the Tank car is NOT a diesel.
 
- Same displacement and aspiration ? Gasoline gets you up to twice HP.
- Same HP ? Engine costs and weights more.
- Less reliable.
- Low RPMs, which are not meant for performance.
Outright, peak HP in a diesel cannot be compared to that of a petrol engine

-HP is a function of RPM, defined by laws of physics.
-Diesel engines are capable at factory levels of running cylinder pressures twice or triple that of petrol engines., either through increased boost, compression ratio or a combination of both.
-less reliable.... please, Diesel engines produce less heat energy and are more thermally efficient, do less rpm and as such wear at a lower rate
-low RPM's are fine for performance.... I have a 2 litre Turbo Diesel Subaru (boxer configuration) it produces 420Nm of torque at 1600rpm, and holds that torque until 3400rpm, it only drops to just under 400Nm at the redline.
Torque = Acceleration.

Also to note the Subaru EE20 D.I Turbo Diesel weighs no more than the EJ20/ EJ25 engines
Due to a fully aluminium engine construction, with steel cylinder liners.
It also uses no (heavy) balance shafts due to the boxer layout being harmonically balanced.

It's a pity that Porsche don;t make a Flat-6 Diesel,
instead using the VAG V6 variants
 
Because Diesels are not performance stuff :

- Same displacement and aspiration ? Gasoline gets you up to twice HP.
- Same HP ? Engine costs and weights more.
- Less reliable.
- Low RPMs, which are not meant for performance.

The only reason you get the 120D is because it was part of a promotional GT demo made for BMW for I-don't-remember-which international motor show, so they kept it there.

Then, the LMP cars are marketing diesel and using gas-oil, but they don't fit in the core Diesel principle by definition : 908, R10 and R18 engines all have ignition spark plugs. They're basically gasoline engines running very high compressions on gasoil - which seems enough for most people to buy the marketing.


I'm sorry but this is incorrect on just about every point.

-Petrol runs at half the thermal efficiency and only gain a slight bhp advantage but at a great torque loss.
-Modern diesels use ali blocks and heads the same as a petrol, costs are increased due to expensive injectors and pumps but the engines aren't much more at all.
-Diesels are infact more reliable, they run stronger blocks and produce far less heat. Taxi's, trucks, trains and every piece of industrial equipment in the world don't run diesels because they enjoy the soundtrack. Modern cars do suffer thanks to emissions control equipment such as EGR's and DPF's which like to clog up but the engines themselves would run forever.
-Low(er) Rpm's yes but twice as much work done per RPM and as the RPM range has increased towards 5000 so that is less of an issue. Besides it's the gearboxes job to worry about the engines RPM so as long as the gear ratios are good everything is fine.

LMP cars Use shell V-power diesel, its even delivered with a road hand pump flow rate and the engines are CI, there are no spark plugs, if there were they would be SI engines.
 
-HP is a function of RPM, defined by laws of physics.

True. HP=TQ*RPM/5252 to be precise.

Torque = Acceleration.

Now that's incorrect. Torque = force/work. Torque does not take into account the duration of the effort. However, power = work over time, which is the only thing that really matters here.

Let's take two guys, Daniel and Peter. Daniel is big and strong, but can only move slowly, Peter on the other hand is weaker but can move faster. They both have to push pallets accross the room. Daniel pushes 20kg pallets and takes 10 seconds to cover the distance. Peter pushes 10kg pallets and takes 4 seconds to cover the distance. In 20 seconds, Peter will have moved 50kg worth of pallets, while Daniel will have only moved 40kg. Peter has more power here. However, Peter doesn't have enough force to break free the 20kg pallets from standstill, Daniel's torque is necessary there.

Understand better the difference ? If you need to move important weights and how fast you do it is not crucial, then you want Daniel's torque, who uses a long stroke. But if you need speed to do it fast, you'll need Peter's power, who uses a short stroke.

Details : http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm

Outright, peak HP in a diesel cannot be compared to that of a petrol engine.

False, because of what I explained just above. I might give you a point on the word "peak", as it would be better to look at a range of RPMs in which power is at least at a certain percentage of peak power. But you can't compare torque figures taken at different RPMs, because the number of cycles is different.

Moreover, if torque was the only thing that matters, why then make engines rev after torque peak ?

-Petrol only gain a slight bhp advantage but at a great torque loss.

Twice the HP for same displacement is not what I call a slight advantage.


-less reliable.... please, Diesel engines produce less heat energy and are more thermally efficient, do less rpm and as such wear at a lower rate
-Petrol runs at half the thermal efficiency
-Diesels are infact more reliable, they run stronger blocks and produce far less heat. [...] Modern cars do suffer thanks to emissions control equipment such as EGR's and DPF's which like to clog up but the engines themselves would run forever.

Petrol engines also improved with time, difference is less than it used to be in that regard. And by the way, it's not what I was talking about, because first I'm looking at efficiency regarding displacement, then because blocks in themselves don't break, unless something else goes wrong (which is more likely to happen on a diesel). Also, try to run a diesel engine at petrol RPMs, and we'll see how it deals with it.

So, back at reliability : what do we see in garages ? TDi, TDi, TDi, TDi... Core block doesn't break but that's not the point. Yeah, it may be a good part due to peripherals, but those are required, and doesn't break on petrol engines. Looking only at the core block makes no sense, and I can say petrol blocks could run forever as well (million miles petrol engines do exist, and I have driven several petrol cars with original engines over 300.000 km which were running more than fine : I especially think of a friend's Celica he bought new, which still even has original clutch despite the daily routaine being a mountain pass to go to work). And still, porous heads, rods and bearings seem to happen quite often.
And talking about TDi specifically, knowing several people who work or worked in VAG dealers, a brand new TDI acting up before the customer even has the keys handed is not a rare occurrence.

Modern day diesels are also very, very sensitive to impurities in fuel and injection problems. And injection problems are actually quite a big thing with the expensive stuff they must fit in.

Then, not being able to start under freezing cold temperatures does not go well with reliability. It was pretty funny around there to see the mess when temperatures went under 10° Celsius (I live in the Alps, so don't come tell me about specific low temperatures diesel in pump stations).

Taxi's, trucks, trains and every piece of industrial equipment in the world don't run diesels because they enjoy the soundtrack.

I'll assume you either messed up in writing, or there are regulations that kills the diesel where you live since in EU, pretty much every taxi, trucks and trains runs diesel. As for industrial machineries, Vallée de l'Arve in France is one of the country's most polluted area by particles because of industies (diesel machines, yes). Basically, freight and industries all use diesel because they move huge amounts of weights / need brute force, without the need for speed.

I have a 2 litre Turbo Diesel Subaru (boxer configuration) it produces 420Nm of torque at 1600rpm, and holds that torque until 3400rpm, it only drops to just under 400Nm at the redline.

Which makes 95 HP at 1600 RPM, and 150 HP at 3600 RPM. But where's the revlimit then ?


Also to note the Subaru EE20 D.I Turbo Diesel weighs no more than the EJ20/ EJ25 engines
Due to a fully aluminium engine construction, with steel cylinder liners.
It also uses no (heavy) balance shafts due to the boxer layout being harmonically balanced.

Yeah, now find me a 400+ HP diesel boxer without extensive modifications that will hold up on more than a drag strip. I can vouch for closed deck EJ20/25s dealing with those powers with no problem, know a lot of them around here.

-Modern diesels use ali blocks and heads the same as a petrol, costs are increased due to expensive injectors and pumps but the engines aren't much more at all.

Still produce less power at comparable displacement and aspiration. So less effective. And besides, that's higher end engines, most of which still needs to be reinforced.


-Low(er) Rpm's yes but twice as much work done per RPM

Yeah, and what ? Still useless, what matters is the amount of work per time units, as shown before.

-low RPM's are fine for performance....

No. That's a definite no. Explanations are just after.

and as the RPM range has increased towards 5000 so that is less of an issue. Besides it's the gearboxes job to worry about the engines RPM so as long as the gear ratios are good everything is fine.

Problem is not keeping the engine in power range, it's exploiting the gearing to better potential, as your actual speed is dependent of your gearing and RPMs. Let me explain with an example :

Cars A and B are identical in every regards, weight, gearbox, etc. except engine. Engine A delivers 200 HP between 3000 and 5000 RPM, while engine B delivers 200 HP between 5000 and 7000 RPM. Gearbox is stagged in a linear way, you lose 2000 RPMs when shifting.

Car A goes up to 50 km/h in 1st gear, while car B can reach 70 km/h before shifting. That means from 50 to 70, B accelerates better than A because it is still in 1st gear while A is already in 2nd.
2nd gear allows A to reach 100, while B will reach 140 keeping the same acceleration potential (aero drag neglected). Which means on a 40 km/h range, A has less acceleration again. The faster you go and the higher the gears, the difference increases. The only point where engine A might perform better is at take off on 1st gear, before 50 km/h. In race conditions, how much does that happens ?

See where this is going ? If not, here's a practical example from my own testings : Time Trial Mountain Board

TL;DR : higher RPMs engine makes the car faster by 2.7 seconds on a single 4km lap.


LMP cars Use shell V-power diesel, its even delivered with a road hand pump flow rate and the engines are CI, there are no spark plugs, if there were they would be SI engines.

There ARE dedicated ignition spark plugs on LMP cars. I saw a R10 TDI engine block and a 908 HDI engine block in person. And I know the ACO prohibits the use of any kind of fuel not available at your regular pump station, that's not only for diesel.


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In the end, diesel has its sues, but the point I try to make from the beginning is that it is simply not designed or suited for a sports car / racing car application.
 
Aesthetics might also come into play. Some (most?) diesel cars are also of a standard trim level and certainly don't look as appetising as the hotter models.

Peugeot 205 D

peugeot-205-1.9-diesel-04.jpg


Peugeot 205 GTi

4.jpg
 

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