Why PD, Why? (FR Cars which Understeer Horribly)

  • Thread starter Onikaze
  • 46 comments
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Onikaze

1,326
Mustang GT (05)
Corvette Z06 (00)

Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous, obscene amount of understeer these cars exhibit?

It would seem to me, and most anyone else, that a torquey engine, 300-400 Hp, and N2 tires front/rear would be all these cars would need to pull off some nice smoky drifts, right?


Except for some reason the well documented Understeer physics bite these two cars harder than anything else I have ever driven...the Z06 disgusted me so much that I sold it after spending about 100k getting parts, tuning for a couple hours, and STILL winding up with an understeering pig.

It sucks to do it, but you can fix it with these two cars, just by slapping on an LSD (for stability mid drift) and mixing tires...

Yes, it is looked down on with most cars...but these aren't most cars...N2/N1 tires, FC LSD (10/26/12) the Mustang GT drifts great...

Same settings, N2/N2...pushes wide....did EVERYTHING I know to induce oversteer/eliminate understeer, but when the fronts match the rears, the Mustang pushes wide every time...with 500 Hp (Supercharger, balancing, etc) Stage 1 lightening, brake balance biased to the rear, a big stupid looking fin with downforce all on front none on rear...it KIND of drifted ok...

But it would also randomly push wide.


I know that some AWD cars do best with mixed tires F/R...

I would like to add these to the list.
 
Yes, at which point many people would insert some snippy comment about how American cars are only good for straight lines.

To which I refer you to the Viper, GTO, and Mustang which are all doing great in drifting events over here.

Then I think back to how I've never in my life heard of a C5 Corvette exhibiting severe understeer...it certainly didn't in GT3...and wonder what the hell is wrong here.


I haven't driven my Ford GT with my DFP yet, I'll give it a spin in a second...but it can't be as bad/maddening as the Z06.
 
Unda-Unda-Unda-steer is your friend, work with it. It provides a ridiculous amount of front tire grip during a drift, I find it benefical to my drifting...
 
most or all new FR cars are tuned for understeer. understeer is a lot safer than oversteer in driving conditions.
 
I don't like th corvette...leaf springs in a 21 century car? no thanks..lol anyways, I don't know why they made it understeer. But FR cars have been setup to understeer from factory for a long time now. Even my 2nd gen rx7 understeers more than it oversteers when its stock.
 
You, know for some strange reason I get the feeling that the problem is somewhere between the back of the seat and the steering wheel.
'Cause I can drift the Mustang just fine with n2 front and rear and no spoiler.

I tend to find that understeer thing kinda realistic but unrealistic at the same time. Most cars tend to understeer slightly from the factory, but in real life it is very easy to create oversteer in those same cars.

My 300zx is perfectly balanced from the factory, but after installing my lsd it now understeers unless I make it oversteer.
 
hahah I tried drifiting the older Mustang Cobra on xLink last night -- that was terrible. I think I pulled 2 good drifts in the 2 laps we did.
 
Funny, I can drift everything else just fine, the old mustang (Gt-350R) is well on its way to becoming my favorite FR drifter, I specialize in RR cars, and I didn't say I couldn't make it drift, I just said that it exhibits ridiculous understeer.

Same with the Z06, I could get drifts out of it, but working around the understeer with the DFP was not a fun thing at all.

The Mustang does drift great with N2/N1 tires, no hint of understeer at all, but the wheel gets heavy, and almost requires double feinting for Tsukuba's tighter hairpins.


It drifts other tracks fine, Trial Mountain Reverse, my home course, it works great around...

Just those tight turns, and that heavy pushing that it gets when I switch from Feint to Power Over like I do to exit drifts with a lot of cars is maddening in the Mustang.

It should do it wonderfully, I know its tuned to understeer a bit from the factory...but not like this.
 
You know there is nothing wrong with drifting with different front and rear tires. Hell, I do it in real life. I have Toyo Proxes 4 in the front and cheap, used, who knows what in the back. I can't afford to put good tires back there. I only spend $45-$50 on a set of rear tires.
 
lol you ppl need to watch the drift bible XD
like the drift king said...use your good wheels for your front tires cuzz you'll need em for steering and find some cheap, old, used tires for your rear ones....once you become good at drifting...then you could get good tires for all 4 wheels...most ppl who go to the track would use cheap tires for the practice run and change to new good tires for the real competition
 
I really would like a link to this "Drift Bible" I've heard so much about. Anyways, yeah. I bought a Mustang GT thinking I could be cool like Ken Gushi, but it didn't happen. I haven't tried drifting with it lately, but when I did, I could not start a drift in ANY way. I even tried E-Braking, but it just wouldn't go sideways... darn American car >.<
 
Droptop_Chick
Unda-Unda-Unda-steer is your friend, work with it. It provides a ridiculous amount of front tire grip during a drift, I find it benefical to my drifting...
Click to expand...

My ass it is... Not on a torque monster like a Viper. That sucker is suppose to oversteer the min. you think about hitting the gas. :irked: But yeah in real life Unda-Unda-Unda-steer is your friend. :lol:
 
Not all FR cars are plagued with this.

The XKR and 300ZX are pleasing to drive.
 
I think you just have to toy around with the LSD mostly. I just bought an SRT-10 and it was also understeering, but once I got the LSD kind of well, it went sideways very nicely ^_^ I love the high power!!!
 
I tried every LSD setting I could think of with the Mustang, and then just put it back up.

it works great with N2/N1's...but I just feel like I'm cheating..ya know?

Especially with the drift monster that the GT-350 is...just got another one, lightened all the way, FC Suspension, LSD, Close Tranny, all the best suspension bits, and N1 tires...REEERRRRRKKKKKKKKKKK...fun.
 
Well, I tried today to toy around with the LSD and with n2/n2 and it didn't work as well as I expected, it somewhat goes sideways, but close turns or hairpins screw it up. And then, when I try to e-brake, it just stops.... so disappointing...
 
Onikaze
it works great with N2/N1's...but I just feel like I'm cheating..ya know?
Click to expand...

I think you got a point, Onikaze.
It just sucks to be forced to put crappy tires on the rear wheels. Of course you can drift like that, but look at how slow you are with a tire mix. I can deal with light understeer no problem, but heavy understeer causes me agony.

I think there is a fundamental flaw with the GT4 Physics Model, and although it does not entirely spoil the game, it's still a major drag with some cars. Ever tried this: Spin a donut with a powerful RWD or AWD car. Stay on the gas and let go of the steering (DS analog stick for this experiment).

  • What happens in GT4? The Rear bites and the car takes off in a straight line.
  • What happens in my real life car (has RWD + LSD)? The car continues to spin until the rotation gently slows down, stops, the car first disappears in a cloud of tire smoke, and then slowly takes off, but not necessarily in a straight line.

Conclusion: Something badly wrong with the dynamic friction / static friction parameters?!
What would the engineers on this board say to that?
 
You aren't forced to put crappy tires on your car (mixed tires....) That just creates an even worse unbalanced car..When you first start out there is that underster but, you learn to get past it and steer threw it, I hardly get that understeer that I first noticed when I played gt4 for the first time. :)
 
Mr. Apex
I think you got a point, Onikaze.
It just sucks to be forced to put crappy tires on the rear wheels. Of course you can drift like that, but look at how slow you are with a tire mix. I can deal with light understeer no problem, but heavy understeer causes me agony.

I think there is a fundamental flaw with the GT4 Physics Model, and although it does not entirely spoil the game, it's still a major drag with some cars. Ever tried this: Spin a donut with a powerful RWD or AWD car. Stay on the gas and let go of the steering (DS analog stick for this experiment).

  • What happens in GT4? The Rear bites and the car takes off in a straight line.
  • What happens in my real life car (has RWD + LSD)? The car continues to spin until the rotation gently slows down, stops, the car first disappears in a cloud of tire smoke, and then slowly takes off, but not necessarily in a straight line.

Conclusion: Something badly wrong with the dynamic friction / static friction parameters?!
What would the engineers on this board say to that?
Click to expand...


I have noticed the same thing... The friction/tire physics is not quite up to snuff, me thinks...

BTW, I bought a Mustang GT, also wanting to exhibit the skill and beauty with which Ken Gushi drifts his Mustang... Alas, to no avail... I will continue to tweak it, but it does not handle as it does in real life, that's for sure... I have driven a 2005 Mustang, and it oversteered at will... Oh well, I hope PD is listenning...





;)
 
This isn't my first time driving in GT4, not even with the DFP, I know about the understeer, and how to deal with it.

The point is the Mustang GT does it way more than it has any reason too, and oddly will push at certain speeds/slip angles when you get on the throttle..not what an FR car would be expected to do.
 
Onikaze
This isn't my first time driving in GT4, not even with the DFP, I know about the understeer, and how to deal with it.

The point is the Mustang GT does it way more than it has any reason too, and oddly will push at certain speeds/slip angles when you get on the throttle..not what an FR car would be expected to do.
Click to expand...

Agreed... I was really looking forward to drifting my white Mustang GT (with black 3d wing, like Ken Gushi's car)... I just hate mixing tires (except on a few AWD's), but I may have to, to get this thing to drift at all...





;)
 
Delphic Reason
Agreed... I was really looking forward to drifting my white Mustang GT (with black 3d wing, like Ken Gushi's car)... I just hate mixing tires (except on a few AWD's), but I may have to, to get this thing to drift at all...
Click to expand...


You can always set the rear camber to 10 and the toe to -4, but I guess at that point you're not really braking traction anymore, just controlling the absence of it. I personaly never set settings crazy like that, but with extreme understeer cars, it is part of the tuning process.

DR is back,

< Vin >
 
omnispeed
please explain... :dunce:
Click to expand...

What she is saying, is that you can tune a vehicle to take advantage of the understeering problem in GT4... In theory, the understeering bug could be utilized (with the right settings) to give you increased countersteer control, via the extra grip to the front wheels...

DR is back
Click to expand...

Yep...





;)
 
Yeah, there is a lot you can do with the understeer...

Like RIDICULOUSLY early corner entries.

I'm talking exiting the tunnel on Trial Mountain Reverse, tires smoking, and holding the car sideways around the next right hander.


But in some cars, it should be easier to break traction than it is...
 
I think the main cause of the "no donuts" problem is that in this game wheelspin doesn't decrease the side to side traction of the tires enough. So it always feels like you are peg legging during a donut or drift because that is about how much side traction is lost. I always end up driving in circles with the tires spinning in this game. Just like if I were to attempt cutting donuts with an open diff. LIKE MY REAL CAR BEFORE THE UPGRADE. You can drift w/o lsd. You can drift FF. You can drift anything that moves. Anything that moves can move sideways. (eccept for a train for obvious reasons) This is why it is so hard to drift in this game. Lack of side bite loss during wheelspin. It is very similar to drifting a non-lsd rear wheel drive car. This is why I think GT3 has more realistic drifting physics. Only prob with GT3 is that forward and side bite loss is exagerated. But atleast it is there. In GT4 Forward bite loss is still exagerated, and side bite loss is nearly non-existent.

Also I think that instead of decreasing rear side traction during wheelspin they just increased rear momentum. Of course momentum is non-existent whithout speed. And at donut speed of 3-5mph there isn't enough momentum to overcome the side traction of the tires in this game. In real life you lose equal amounts of forward and side traction during wheel spin. So it is easy to cut a donut because it is easy for the momentum to overcome the nearly non-existent side traction of the spinning tires.
 

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