Why psychologically the open lobbies are not helping a clean driving simulation experience

[MightyL]

Why psychologically the open lobbies are not helping a clean driving simulation experience.


A. About the Quali. The general time attack mode for qualification with no time restriction for registration works quite demotivating. Every person has a personal average speed around a track. A personal average one can improve by getting to know the track better, and in how you attack the different corners, getting your braking points more precise, tweaking the car,... Improving your personal best time and see your laptimes go down can be quite satisfying. Beating a friends time by just a few hundreds of a second after putting alot of time can be very satisfying. BUT in how the system currently works, no matter how much you improve on your own time, there s always people faster. And often alot faster. So having the feeling of outdoing yourself, being faster than you ve ever been before is being annihilated by the feeling to be dropped in some kind of anonymous pack of others that are evenly fast or easily faster. After putting in all the effort of getting better, the excitement of yesss I got just that tiny little bit faster in section 2 once again, you end up in a race with unknown others who seem to have set about the same quali time, with or without much of an effort we don't know.
Here s my suggestion: make the qualification session a part of the race or limit the maximum time one can spend qualifying. This way one adds the factor of unpredictability: even faster guys can make mistakes and have a slower quali time.
Also two more things are avoided: Firstly it happens I set a fast qualification time but I'm not able to make it to the race which makes the qualification a bit useless and devaluates the importance of the race itself. Secondly I did set my fastest time after an hour of hotlapping, a really lucky one-off, got every corner just right. Than for two days I didnt find the time to drive the track, so I enter the race with guys matching my supertime but my actual racing will be not at all matching my quali pace.
Btw the general leaderboard can stay in place, I love that feature but it should be disconnected from the actual races (in my humble opinion).

B. About the Races. In how the system works now, there are alot of anonymous others against whom we are being matched after having set a fastest time. Anonymous others who all seem to be matching our personal best time. There s however no personal connection with those others. No personal connection means less personal involvement in being better than a specific other and even more importantly less personal involvement in being slower. It's easier to accept a friend is faster out of a certain corner and respect him when he overtakes than someone we'll probably never race again. This lack of connection results in a feeling there s only one thing left for me to do: I want to be first, first, first... and I have four laps to do so. So there we are, pushing each other off, forcing a way through the anonymous pack.

Conclusion: I sincerely hope the actual online championships in GT Sport will be something to subscribe for with a fixed date so we will be able to fight the same guys every race. If not, no hard feelings, I will be in the private custom lobbies loosing against friends...

Hey guys just some thinking. My reflections might be dumb and stupid, and alot might disagree, no worries.

 

[Lord Protector]

I am 100% with you

Why not 30m P, 30m Q and then race?

Also, it would be good to reset the time of all players once the race finishes.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In my experience people generally qualify at their ability level whether they have 10 minutes or two days to qualify. I've never seen anyone get a lucky lap in and punch way above their ability. Not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it myself. When the general game opens ups I think we're supposed to match up based on a performance rating and a safety rating so it resolve most of the issues in the long run with a much larger player base.

 

[NotreDAMNNN]

Fast players will be fast no matter the time format. But I have a feeling you don't mean the really 'fast' players. The downside of a 30 minute format is that people trying to set a fast time but don't take the practice of learning the track for racing. So you will end up racing guys doing lap times 'half' their ability.

Casual online gaming is always anonymous. Unless you join a league or club. I'm pretty sure there will be an option to race with friends/clubs in the final game.

 

[Fredzy]

I am 100% with you

Why not 30m P, 30m Q and then race?

Also, it would be good to reset the time of all players once the race finishes.

Agree with you and OP, maybe even less quali time, ~10mins with exception of the nurburgring. One shot, don't mess it up!

 

[super_gt]

I want to be first, first, first... and I have four laps to do so. So there we are, pushing each other off, forcing a way through the anonymous pack.

This way of thinking can be cured very easily with heavy mechanical damage.

 

[MightyL]

This way of thinking can be cured very easily with heavy mechanical damage.

i'm really really looking forward

 

[DonZonda]

This way of thinking can be cured very easily with heavy mechanical damage.

until the crash kiddies come and wreck also other cars...

PD could never really get a fair damage system. because even if somebody breaks accidentally too early and the one behind crashes into him, well both are having a problem then.

Same if somebody on purpose is breaking hard that he damages the car behind him. There are always ways to ruin the experience.
Surely in higher class races that wouldnt be much of a problem anymore but the causual races gonna be wreck partys then...

I doubt PD could develope any system which would be smart enough to ghost or disable damage on somebody who really isnt guilty of it.

Already happens with the Sportsmanship Rating, somebody else kicks you off the road and you are the one punished for no reason.

 

[EDK]

Why psychologically the open lobbies are not helping a clean driving simulation experience.


A. About the Quali. The general time attack mode for qualification with no time restriction for registration works quite demotivating. Every person has a personal average speed around a track. A personal average one can improve by getting to know the track better, and in how you attack the different corners, getting your braking points more precise, tweaking the car,... Improving your personal best time and see your laptimes go down can be quite satisfying. Beating a friends time by just a few hundreds of a second after putting alot of time can be very satisfying. BUT in how the system currently works, no matter how much you improve on your own time, there s always people faster. And often alot faster. So having the feeling of outdoing yourself, being faster than you ve ever been before is being annihilated by the feeling to be dropped in some kind of anonymous pack of others that are evenly fast or easily faster. After putting in all the effort of getting better, the excitement of yesss I got just that tiny little bit faster in section 2 once again, you end up in a race with unknown others who seem to have set about the same quali time, with or without much of an effort we don't know.
Here s my suggestion: make the qualification session a part of the race or limit the maximum time one can spend qualifying. This way one adds the factor of unpredictability: even faster guys can make mistakes and have a slower quali time.
Also two more things are avoided: Firstly it happens I set a fast qualification time but I'm not able to make it to the race which makes the qualification a bit useless and devaluates the importance of the race itself. Secondly I did set my fastest time after an hour of hotlapping, a really lucky one-off, got every corner just right. Than for two days I didnt find the time to drive the track, so I enter the race with guys matching my supertime but my actual racing will be not at all matching my quali pace.
Btw the general leaderboard can stay in place, I love that feature but it should be disconnected from the actual races (in my humble opinion).

B. About the Races. In how the system works now, there are alot of anonymous others against whom we are being matched after having set a fastest time. Anonymous others who all seem to be matching our personal best time. There s however no personal connection with those others. No personal connection means less personal involvement in being better than a specific other and even more importantly less personal involvement in being slower. It's easier to accept a friend is faster out of a certain corner and respect him when he overtakes than someone we'll probably never race again. This lack of connection results in a feeling there s only one thing left for me to do: I want to be first, first, first... and I have four laps to do so. So there we are, pushing each other off, forcing a way through the anonymous pack.

Conclusion: I sincerely hope the actual online championships in GT Sport will be something to subscribe for with a fixed date so we will be able to fight the same guys every race. If not, no hard feelings, I will be in the private custom lobbies loosing against friends...

Hey guys just some thinking. My reflections might be dumb and stupid, and alot might disagree, no worries.

Allowing people time to practice a combo is better for the racing overall.

Limiting qualifying time will mix the field up a bit. If you let people qualify in say the 5-7 minutes leading into the race, basically 2-3 flying laps in most cases (1 for Nurburgring) the order will be mixed up a small amount, but not significantly.

We race with full rooms in WRS online and people quickly realize what part of the pack they are racing in, and who they are racing against.

The issue is not the format, it's the mentality of some of the participants, with a combination of lack of preparation and a win at all costs mentality.

Bottom line is that public lobbies in the lower ranks are never going to produce quality racing. There are too many differing agendas and there will always be someone who is simply out to get the other drivers, at all costs.

Private lobbies and advancement to the upper tiers for public events is what will "fix" this.

 

[MightyL]

until the crash kiddies come and wreck also other cars...

PD could never really get a fair damage system. because even if somebody breaks accidentally too early and the one behind crashes into him, well both are having a problem then.

well those are things that happen in real racing as well so it could be the risk of racing if for the rest everybody is driving sportsmanlike.

your point is exactly the reason why I'm encouraging racing championships with fixed opponents instead of random opponents.

 

[Johnnypenso]

until the crash kiddies come and wreck also other cars...

PD could never really get a fair damage system. because even if somebody breaks accidentally too early and the one behind crashes into him, well both are having a problem then.

Same if somebody on purpose is breaking hard that he damages the car behind him. There are always ways to ruin the experience.
Surely in higher class races that wouldnt be much of a problem anymore but the causual races gonna be wreck partys then...

I doubt PD could develope any system which would be smart enough to ghost or disable damage on somebody who really isnt guilty of it.

Already happens with the Sportsmanship Rating, somebody else kicks you off the road and you are the one punished for no reason.

In theory this is what the rating system should resolve. The clean drivers should end up with the clean drivers and then be sorted by pace. In the lower levels it's going to be a crapshoot but it is in iRacing as well. Entering races in the rookie class is like spinning a roulette wheel and I don't expect GTS to be any different in the lower classes, probably much worse actually. We'll have to keep our noses clean and take a series of lower place finishes to improve our rating, steps the punters won't be taking. Hopefully it doesn't take long in the real game to make your way up the ladder.

 

[Sploshington]

In theory this is what the rating system should resolve. The clean drivers should end up with the clean drivers and then be sorted by pace. In the lower levels it's going to be a crapshoot but it is in iRacing as well. Entering races in the rookie class is like spinning a roulette wheel and I don't expect GTS to be any different in the lower classes, probably much worse actually. We'll have to keep our noses clean and take a series of lower place finishes to improve our rating, steps the punters won't be taking. Hopefully it doesn't take long in the real game to make your way up the ladder.

I am so worried about this, purely on a personal level, as - although I am 100% for clean racing, I am generally a slow driver amongst GT players in general (too cautious i guess, i don't attack track parts nearly as much as i should do, but am unsure of how far to push it ) so I think that I'm going to be placed in amongst the crapshoot, as you perfectly described it.

I'm not sure how I'm going to get out of it other than spending a LOT of time just running hot-laps around the tracks. That's the point i guess. I have neither the skill or time to get up in amongst all you top drivers and that's cool. I am wondering if GT:S is one for me to miss and just hold out for GT7 instead ?

I mean that purely as I am wondering if GT:S is a bit above my station ( online/multiplayer focused ) and I am just more suited to a single player experience. I'm not sure if GT:S is going to prove frustrating for me, if only this time around. I think I am going to wait it out for a bit - not buy it day 1 and observe the lay of the land after a couple of weeks. I'll be on here, just keeping up with threads and making a choice, based on a general feel of the game from other players. I think that will be best for a slow-poke like me

 

[suprajef]

Allowing people time to practice a combo is better for the racing overall.

Limiting qualifying time will mix the field up a bit. If you let people qualify in say the 5-7 minutes leading into the race, basically 2-3 flying laps in most cases (1 for Nurburgring) the order will be mixed up a small amount, but not significantly.

We race with full rooms in WRS online and people quickly realize what part of the pack they are racing in, and who they are racing against.

The issue is not the format, it's the mentality of some of the participants, with a combination of lack of preparation and a win at all costs mentality.

Bottom line is that public lobbies in the lower ranks are never going to produce quality racing. There are too many differing agendas and there will always be someone who is simply out to get the other drivers, at all costs.

Private lobbies and advancement to the upper tiers for public events is what will "fix" this.

If pd would adopt the wrs rating it would be great!

 

[Outspacer]

The only thing I think the higher class races will help with is not falling back into the 'rabble' that inhabits the lower half of the grid at lower levels. Currently I'm suffering unduly from getting pushed off by a good but dirty racer, and then being smacked about by the rabble - it's no fun at all, and my SR suffers a lot.

Dirty racers will still rise through the ranks, learning what they can get away with without losing SR.

Quali time isn't per-car, which just seems wrong.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am so worried about this, purely on a personal level, as - although I am 100% for clean racing, I am generally a slow driver amongst GT players in general (too cautious i guess, i don't attack track parts nearly as much as i should do, but am unsure of how far to push it ) so I think that I'm going to be placed in amongst the crapshoot, as you perfectly described it.

I'm not sure how I'm going to get out of it other than spending a LOT of time just running hot-laps around the tracks. That's the point i guess. I have neither the skill or time to get up in amongst all you top drivers and that's cool. I am wondering if GT:S is one for me to miss and just hold out for GT7 instead ?

I mean that purely as I am wondering if GT:S is a bit above my station ( online/multiplayer focused ) and I am just more suited to a single player experience. I'm not sure if GT:S is going to prove frustrating for me, if only this time around. I think I am going to wait it out for a bit - not buy it day 1 and observe the lay of the land after a couple of weeks. I'll be on here, just keeping up with threads and making a choice, based on a general feel of the game from other players. I think that will be best for a slow-poke like me

I have no idea how the coding works but I'd like to think that they sort drivers on speed and etiquette as well. With hopefully 10's of thousands of regular participants, you've got a good chance of building large pools of drivers that are very similar to each other. To me that would mean that, although you might be slower, if you stay out of regular trouble, eventually you'll be placed with drivers of similar speed and etiquette as you. We'll have to see how it plays out I suppose.

 

[mirial]

I'm not sure how I'm going to get out of it other than spending a LOT of time just running hot-laps around the tracks. That's the point i guess. I have neither the skill or time to get up in amongst all you top drivers and that's cool

Getting better seems to be extremely difficult in the sim world as there are no tried and tested methods of doing so unlike the real world where there are plenty of driver coaches about. PD would do very well indeed to add some sort of driving school with some very demanding tests which have to be passed to get folk into the right habits. This isn't helped at all by all these default driving assists and the lack of encouragement for the majority of users to get a wheel which would change everything for the better.

Learning to drive cars or use setups that are very uncomfortable to begin with to use together with perseverance would be a good starting point to improve. Check out videos on skid control cars which is probably the most important thing for anyone looking to drive seriously in real life without any previous racing experience. And maybe simumlate this in GT in some way.

 

[EDK]

I'm not sure how I'm going to get out of it other than spending a LOT of time just running hot-laps around the tracks. That's the point i guess. I have neither the skill or time to get up in amongst all you top drivers and that's cool. I am wondering if GT:S is one for me to miss and just hold out for GT7 instead ?

We have a lot of guys that come run with us in the WRS TT's to improve their driving and laptimes.

Here's a post I made a while back on some potential sources of learning theory and improving in total.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gtp_wrs-week-158-official-results.353335/#post-11695876

We're using GT6 still, since that's the full game that's available. So understand if running events is not going to do it for you right now. But there's a lot to learn from those couple references I shared. And watching the laps people are posting on here in to see what they are doing differently from you, and learning from that, will be an important aspect.

Don't just practice, practice the right things, in the right way.

 

[BrainsBush]

I really hope that the SR system or any other system will find a solution for the drivers that on purpose push someone of track. What a bummer especially on 7 minutes Nurb. Some 'racers' know where to push you off track right after the start and your race is completely ruined after 10 seconds and still 6:50 to go....yes I experienced this situation two times this evening at the Nordschleife race. For that reason I might refrain to race online or is it something that's part of such a broad audience?

I think it is not that difficult to program something like this: if you hit a car you get a time penalty, seconds time you hit a car multiply x2.

It is more difficult to separate the drivers who just try to learn and by accident hit a car and the ones who do it on purpose.

 

[weedybroz]

I really hope that the SR system or any other system will find a solution for the drivers that on purpose push someone of track. What a bummer especially on 7 minutes Nurb. Some 'racers' know where to push you off track right after the start and your race is completely ruined after 10 seconds and still 6:50 to go....yes I experienced this situation two times this evening at the Nordschleife race. For that reason I might refrain to race online or is it something that's part of such a broad audience?

I think it is not that difficult to program something like this: if you hit a car you get a time penalty, seconds time you hit a car multiply x2.

It is more difficult to separate the drivers who just try to learn and by accident hit a car and the ones who do it on purpose.

well i noticed on iracing in the public lobbys that there was a way to report intentional wreckers with a replay i think if i remember right and if the infraction was legit , iracing was able to ban that driver . i hope pd has a reporting feature like that for the sport mode . private lobbies doesnt matter as the host can ban folks .

 

[diesel97]

well i noticed on iracing in the public lobbys that there was a way to report intentional wreckers with a replay i think if i remember right and if the infraction was legit , iracing was able to ban that driver . i hope pd has a reporting feature like that for the sport mode . private lobbies doesnt matter as the host can ban folks .

I don't think Sony/PD can ban you from online legally. The only way they could is if you are caught haking their game. You paid for the game which comes with online. I-racing can do it because it is a paid to play game you are only paying for the right to play online. Once your subscription is up you have nothing, no rights to anything.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I don't think Sony/PD can ban you from online legally. The only way they could is if you are caught haking their game. You paid for the game which comes with online. I-racing can do it because it is a paid to play game you are only paying for the right to play online. Once your subscription is up you have nothing, no rights to anything.

They can.
Even to the point of permanently banning the individual console from all online activity.

Purchasing a game or not isn't a factor here.
It's because of a breach of the T&C's when using the PSN service.

 

[GT6mebe]

When GTS launches, going online will be chaos. There will be a lot of volatility in SR for all drivers as everyone is starting from the same step, however as time continues, I believe the system will be appreciated a lot more.

 

[diesel97]

They can.
Even to the point of permanently banning the individual console from all online activity.

Purchasing a game or not isn't a factor here.
It's because of a breach of the T&C's when using the PSN service.

Let me rephrase this yes they can ban you for example if you are verbally abusing someone on the PSN but not for diving backwards on a track

 

[A_K_5_81]

The long qual is a good idea at the moment, but it could be done similar to iracing - time trials to learn the track combo, open practice to learn to drive around among other cars then a qual session 10 mins or time dependant on track. As for accidents , 1st corner you have 18 cars into turn 1 for the same bit of tarmac so contact can happen , the same when normal overtaking. The people that crash on purpose and drive the wrong way their rating surely will affect them being able to race against genuine drivers in the future. Maybe a black flag system compulsary that kicks idiots from session and an ability to block players so dont race with them again.

 

[Coiler]

I see a new trend, I'm now on 49 SP and the guys wait until the last lap to push you out of the way.
If you are lucky enough you loose 3-4 positions and some SP. Nearly all times ive been bumped this way was by Spanish players- do I miss something?

 

[VBR]

I presume GTS will also have lobbies like in GT5 & GT6, if not the online as it is will not suffice for most players.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I see a new trend, I'm now on 49 SP and the guys wait until the last lap to push you out of the way.
If you are lucky enough you loose 3-4 positions and some SP. Nearly all times ive been bumped this way was by Spanish players- do I miss something?

I mentioned this a while ago as a way of gaming the SR system. If a bump, is a bump, is a bump and only has a small effect on your rating, this is what some guys will do. Save up SR until near the end and make a strategic nudge to push guys out of the way.

 

[monkeywall]

If pd would adopt the wrs rating it would be great!

I had thought they where trying to copy it when I 1st heard of SR

I sincerely hope the actual online championships in GT Sport will be something to subscribe for with a fixed date so we will be able to fight the same guys every race. If not, no hard feelings, I will be in the private custom lobbies loosing against friends...

I hope so to already getting angry at others pushing during braking and blocking even guys from gtplanet. Making me the rage and make mistakes something hitting other driver by accident. I never get angry

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

This way of thinking can be cured very easily with heavy mechanical damage.

From my experience with GT5+6, Forza 3 to 6 not at all actually.

The only way I found to have clean race is by racing with people I know in private lobby that have similar skill to mine.

Usually what happen with full mechanical damage is the the last guy that is already 10 sec behind after qualify will think it's funnier trying to mess everyone else race than doing a time atk behind where he got no chance of going everywhere.

Only way to have a clean championship imo is a system like gtp have. But that would take too much ressources to put in place worldwide and manage.

 

[Seanspeed]

Making qualifying part of the race session increases the time demand required to put in for a play session.

This is fine for more serious leagues or something, but for a game that needs to appeal to (hopefully)millions, that's a no-go. Even iRacing doesn't demand this(unless they've changed it since I last played).

I also feel like you're just describing the downside of an online racing focus in general - yes, you will ALWAYS find people faster than you. This is probably going to affect a lot of people's ability to enjoy this game like they would a normal GT game. Where you could just buy a certain car or upgrade it enough to smash through the lousy AI and win the race and getting that boost of credits or car reward that you're looking for as a carrot.

People who play GT Sport are going to need to learn to *not win*. I imagine a minority of us are already like that and can just enjoy the thrill of a competitive race, but GT doesn't sell many millions of copies based on people who get a great thrill of a close race for 5th place.

It's one of the big reasons I think this game is going to be a big failure by normal GT standards.