Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"
- Thread starter LP670-4 SV
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Agree 👍
shirakawaa
Premium
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- GTP_shirakawaa
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- Freeman_Cruz
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- Snake55wildcat
the Alfa Romeo Guila Sprint Speciale [the dark blue one upfront] is definiatly a Standard car, since that was converted from GT4, so thats the one that comfirms standards and premiums can race together, not that i doubted it, but this just proves it 
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- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
This is AWESOME news! Do you Premium fiends really think it would be a lot of fun to find yourselves in what would practically end up being one make races, if Premiums couldn't mix with Standards? GT3's grids bugged me after a while. I know Slip cringes a bit at the thought of one car you can pound and the doors fly off, and another just gets scratched and dented, but I think that's a small price to pay for variety.
I know people also mention Photo Mode issues, but as far as I know, no one stopped taking pics in Forza when we discovered the bot cars are very low detail. Heck, I'm going to be snapping pics of Standards all over the place, and if people cringe, oh well.
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- GTP_infamousDee
This is ridiculous. I never thought Kaz, the "perfectionist," would let this happen. You can't just have two classes of car running in the same when the difference in detail is clearly tenfold. 
- 2,112
- xNEVER-ONEx
This is ridiculous. I never thought Kaz, the "perfectionist," would let this happen. You can't just have two classes of car running in the same when the difference in detail is clearly tenfold.
So you would rather have the game cut in half?
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
It's cute you can't get me off your mind, TD 👍
This is good news, since the positives do outweigh the negatives, but my point about damage (and whatever other discrepancies there might still be between the tiers) stands. I'd love to know how PD is dealing with that. Perhaps Premiums will just be limited to Standard levels of damage in the mixed races?
Two things: only 10 cars in the race? Hrm. Second: Susan Boyle driving a Spitfire?!
Can't tell one way or another if the Standards are now touched up (a la Gold Vette), or if it's just reflection work, image is WAY too small. Neat find, regardless.
This is good news, since the positives do outweigh the negatives, but my point about damage (and whatever other discrepancies there might still be between the tiers) stands. I'd love to know how PD is dealing with that. Perhaps Premiums will just be limited to Standard levels of damage in the mixed races?
Two things: only 10 cars in the race? Hrm. Second: Susan Boyle driving a Spitfire?!
Can't tell one way or another if the Standards are now touched up (a la Gold Vette), or if it's just reflection work, image is WAY too small. Neat find, regardless.
- 2,112
- xNEVER-ONEx
It's cute you can't get me off your mind, TD 👍
This is good news, since the positives do outweigh the negatives, but my point about damage (and whatever other discrepancies there might still be between the tiers) stands. I'd love to know how PD is dealing with that. Perhaps Premiums will just be limited to Standard levels of damage in the mixed races?
Two things: only 10 cars in the race? Hrm. Second: Susan Boyle driving a Spitfire?!
Can't tell one way or another if the Standards are now touched up (a la Gold Vette), or if it's just reflection work, image is WAY too small. Neat find, regardless.
But aslong as the game has mechanical damage for both types of cars, it shouldn't matter.
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- GTP_infamousDee
Yes, I would rather have 250+ cars of exceptional detail and polygon counts, interiors, head-tracking, real-time damage modelling and dirt accumulation than 1000+ cars of half-assed and inconsistent quality. Don't get me wrong, I loved Gran Turismo 4 back in 2004. I still play it occasionally nowadays, and as such would love an additional game mode to enjoy cars from the past, but this is ridiculous. Don't shoot me down for valuing quality over quantity.
It's nice of you to warn us before we read it 👍
I think many of us expected this would be the case (premiums and standards together, not one of Dee's posts being ridiculous) but it is nice to see it confirmed that, as I drive my standard cars, I will occasionally see a passing premium beauty
- 5,699
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
I don't get what your saying the only difference is visual damage. Both cars roll over and get mechanical damage(the mos important IMO). The premiums will just get better visual damage which does not bother me so much for the fact of its the same In Forza3. Some cars get damage more than others, and that did not bother me I still enjoyed the experience.
This is ridiculous. I never thought Kaz, the "perfectionist," would let this happen. You can't just have two classes of car running in the same when the difference in detail is clearly tenfold.
Sorry i'm going to have to give this the 👎 Why must you bring up the perfectionist? Your reason is also poor. "You can't just have two classes of car running in the same when the difference in detail is clearly tenfold." Sorry but If we have a race event Honda vs Nissan I would want to pick any car whether it is premium or standard I don't want the race grid to shrink or consist of the same cars because some people cant get over an issue. What the hell is the big Ideal anyway you will be driving your car worrying about your racing line. I'm glad they all can run together.
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- 4,323
You can tell that from this?
There arent even 4000 pixels there
This was a lose lose situation (which pretty much sums up standards in my book) since keeping them apart means limited race options and putting them together mixes all the differences of standards into the mix.
Small price to pay? Maybe... But in the perfectionist world where they strive to ensure you have the best esperience... Why are we justifying paying prices at all?
I said it before, "its not that bad" is getting to be more and more common around here compared to the past which was "and that (T10) is why you take your time and do it right"
Didn't phto mode in forza sub in the high quality models for the in game ones?
Nice rationalization either way though... I'm pretyy sure had this been all premium GT5 there would have (still) been much touting over how awesome and better than anything else they were... But when its not to be then its time to start saying why it wasn't that important
I would rather not have false dichotomies.
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- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Why shouldn't it? All this talk of realism and the goal of increased immersion is at odds with the idea that some cars in a race will show damage, some will just get a few scratches and dents through clever texture work. So I'd like to know how that's being dealt with.
Still curious if fallen off body pieces (ie: bumper) have any weight to them once they're on the track, too. If I run over it, will it upset my car? Hmmm.
There's the headlights difference. There's the visibility bonus afforded to any view other than cockpit view (still hoping for some sort of "universal" wiper and rain-hitting-the-screen effect in some of the other views though!), and there's the giant question mark over bodykits and race mods.
While I might not always agree with either Infamous or you JDM ol' buddy, I think the perfectionist comment is fair game. People used it as justification during the height of speculation about re-using GT4 assets, that a perfectionist like him wouldn't do something like that. Deve's point about "it's not that bad" and the increased rationalization around here means maybe people are finally backing away from the deifying of Kaz. He is, after all, just a (very talented) man.
Some of us would've accepted less variety for one level of insanely high quality with the car models (read: a Premium-only GT5). Others prefer the current situation of 1000 cars, but the majority being re-hashes, to increase variety. Neither one is right or wrong, it's all up to preference.
👍
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- GTP_Nismo
the Alfa Romeo Guila Sprint Speciale [the dark blue one upfront] is definiatly a Standard car, since that was converted from GT4, so thats the one that comfirms standards and premiums can race together, not that i doubted it, but this just proves it
Was converted from GT4 or was in GT4? There's a difference as we have a few cars from GT4 that were made into premiums.
While I do believe standards and premiums will share the track, I don't think the picture is proof of anything. You can easily see into the cockpit of the Alfa as well as through it and see the light blue roadster's bumper. I'm not entirely positive you can see that much through standard glass.
I mean we've see a few Japanese "classics" and favorites converted to Premiums, why not some european ones.
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- 5,699
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
O OK I thought you where just talking about damage. Now your talking about headlights bodykits etc, so that messed me up my bad, about the perfectionist comment it just makes me laugh, because we as humans know that nobody is perfect. Even though Kaz strives for perfection, people calling Kaz a perfectionist is taking it to another level. IMO It's a setup for failure so I don't get into all that non sense. As I said before I'm glad we got those 800 car Slip, and I'm glad they can all race together. Makes the racing grid that more exciting. Also when's the last time we saw a decent standard car video, I really cant wait to see how they look in final, hopefully very close to the PSP GT intro. 👍 BTW I love your last sentence. 👍
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You can see cockpits inside several cars on GTPSP(in the menus of course),and about the damaged with mixed cars I will say that is all down to mechanical damage,which at the end is the only vital aspect that's need to be taken care of.
BTW the word "perfectionist" doesn't mean that something is perfect,I just means that the person who make it try to do it as best as he can to make it perfect,and in this case is all down to the person who model the car not KY himself,in any case FM didn't support a full scenery set to photomde,they just only introduce it into a basic level during racing otherwise it would be possible to take photomode inside the car,which sadly isn't possible in FM3 and seems to be possible(based on screenshots)that photomode can be done inside the car(in premium cars).
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See when people like me say anything even remotely negative, we get pounced on left and right... but where were the same people to bring this kind of rational thinking months and years ago when the forum was full of "Kazunori San wouldn't let anything but the best go out the door and so we can all be happy because I would rather way years for perfection than have a rushed half finished product"?
It's nice to sit there and say "well duh, no ones perfect now" but where were you to quell the claims when they were being made?
Kind of like everyone who was screaming we should have known premiums and standards would be what they are, well where were you when people were (for years) saying how everything in GT5 was gonna be awesome and only a God like KY could get a perfect game like GT5 was going to be done?
It seems like a lot of people like to say it when it's convenient and after the fact.... not when it's a little unpleasant but just as true.
Sorry akiraa, it was literally used to mean exactly that and often. Anytime you questioned some aspect of GT someone was likely to popup and shut you down for even thinking such a thing since KY is a perfectionist and nothing but perfection would be allowed to pass.
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- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
I don't think the windshields thing has ever been a good indicator, since they're definitely a level of transparent even in GT4. Back in the Standards video the Guilia was in there, so I imagine it hasn't been changed over since then. I'm sure we will get a few GT4 Euro classics given the Premium treatment, though.
Well, going by your definition of perfectionist then, "taking it to another level"... one could easily argue that a game completely missing the Standards (previous-level), while smaller, would get that message across of pushing the envelope a bit more consistently, right?
I see the advantages of both sides of the argument, just as I see the negative. So the last sentence just makes sense to me. If they look like the PSP intro, they'll look great, yeah, but they'll still be limited in their abilities. Ho-hum, though. I'll keep hope for DLC upgrades.
...followed quickly by "well you can't expect all cars to be turned Premium, it'd take years before release!"
I'm actually going to go and point out that Kaz himself is the one that said "expect perfection". Hmmm, what other hyperbole-spewing game producer is vilified for the same kind of proclamations...?
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- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Are you implying that I said anything snotty about you? I think you're hunting for snot where there is none.
Considering we have a very similar situation in Forza in which the bot cars are very low LOD, and we had to be shown this in pics taken directly of the bot cars, and considering you haven't played GT5 to know for yourself, I think you're clearly making things up.This is ridiculous. I never thought Kaz, the "perfectionist," would let this happen. You can't just have two classes of car running in the same when the difference in detail is clearly tenfold.
It's how everyone justifies anything, Dev. NFS Shift has dreadful physics issues and way off sound samples, but because the big mean cars and big loud sounds suits certain players, they deal with it. Codies' F1 2010 has a slew of issues from many gamers' reports, but the fans eat the bugs because they don't have much choice if they want a new F1 racing game. Most people had a strong dislike of Enthusia, but the core fans found something to cling to. And some of us are familiar with Forza's shortcomings, as well as Ferrari/SC Challenge.
It's called "weighing pros and cons," and for someone who juggles them in almost every post with sometimes wild abandon, surely you know better.
Because the situation is entirely different.
MS spent untold sums to hire modeling houses in some rather unusual places like Vietnam to make content for their games. To my knowledge, a cost figure has never been released for any Forza, and hiring a studio to do work for you saves time but is usually massively more expensive than doing it in-house. Unfortunately, every project was rushed. Lots of crappy product was the result. T10 didn't bother to fix much of it, or even patch it, obviously, as we even have some of the same flaws from Forza ONE! MS made the decision to produce three Forzas in six or eight years. The fans justify the price paid for it.
We who want GT5 put out when it's darn well close to perfect and not a day sooner are happy with two demos and a Prologue - and GT PSP, and one huge game produced in almost six years. And yes, many of us - I think most of us - justify the price paid, including the porting in of 800 some odd Standard cars. The game has evidently cost SONY $80 million or so, and taken close to six years to produce. If the choice is to take the game as it is now, rather than wait a few more years at a cost of tens of millions more for a game with a few hundred more Premium cars, I doubt that any fans to speak of would opt for the latter. Certainly SONY wouldn't, and I doubt Kaz would either. I'm pretty sure he wants to light this candle, and then get to work on GT6.
Including Standards in GT5 isn't a matter of Kaz and his team not taking the time to do GT5 right. Having buggy, mostly finished work in Forza is.
Oh, no. I have some very fascinating images to share with you, but my 360 has been disassembled since last Christmas, and I'm pretty sure I'm not on Live Gold anymore, unless MS cheated and got my card number updated without my permission. In which case, someone is going to get a royal flaming phone call. In any case, there are some images floating around in here and on GAF of them, or you could take some pics yourself of bot cars in Forza 3 if you're feeling adventurous.
Regardless, this is just another example of how people pick and choose which flaws to grouch over. Back when Forza 1 and 2 had different levels of damage for different makes of car, I thought it was rather amusing to think that some manufacturers like Ferrari would be adamant that damage be minimal, while others were okay with more. What were these guys thinking?? I think it just makes their cars look ridiculous, but then I'm not into marketing any car brands. Then a year later, I played FM2 and lo and behold, the level of damage was fairly uniform! So... after a year, T10 could do a patch to equalize damage?? NOW what were they thinking??
I'll never understand this mindset with car companies...Personally, this had no influence on my immersion of Forza, if I could destroy a Corvette with my unrealistically tougher Ferrari. Likewise, if Standards don't lose doors, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, or feel any less involved. But hey, that's just me.
And hopefully, this does sound sensible to you.
