Zeta Platform in Trouble

[Joey D]

Shock: General Motors puts Zeta rear-wheel-drive revolution on hold

Source:

General Motors may be forced to scrap or significantly rethink its rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform vehicles, according to a new report in the Chicago Tribune. "We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead," Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said.

"It's too late to stop Camaro, but anything after that is questionable or on the bubble," he said. This includes the next-generation Imapla — "if we call it Impala," he cautioned. Until now, GM was widely expected to build its Impala replacement on the RWD Zeta architecture, plus a number of other vehicles, including a new Pontiac GTO, Buick sedan, Chevy Monte Carlo, a Cadillac model, and more. The Pontiac G8 also rides on the platform.

Lutz blamed new government regulations proposed by the Bush administration. The proposal aims to gradually raise corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards to average 34 mpg by 2017.

"We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from [rear-wheel-drive cars]," Lutz said. "We'll decide on our rear-drive cars when the government decides on CO(-2) levels and CAFE regulations," he added.

"Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" he argued.

Lutz said increasing efficiency is not nearly as easy as environmentalists claim. "Academics assure us that for $200 we can get 30 percent better mileage. If anyone can figure out how to do that for $200 — or even for $1,000 — I want them in my office today. Show me how to do it and we'll adopt it," he said. "If I could increase mileage by 30 percent for $200, why wouldn't I? What's my motivation not to when a gas-electric hybrid gets 27 percent better mileage and I hope someday to get the cost down to $9,000?"

"Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can't build small cars here at a profit," Lutz said.

 

[TopHat]

🤬

AAAAH WHY GOD WHY?


I hate my government.

 

[skip0110]

I knew it was too good to be true.

 

[Joey D]

I think the United State's government and the environmentalist want their country to fail. If GM doesn't stick with it's current run of above average products it will falter.

 

[Tornado]

O SNap! But wait. 2017? Wouldn't the cars be redesigned at least once by then? And couldn't they just sell all of the cars as E85 ready vehicles, thus substantially raising the average MPG of the cars when applied to the CAFE specifications? Furthermore, couldn't they just lobby against it like corporations normally do? And wouldn't stopping platform proliferation throughout the range significantly increase the cost of the Camaro?
There are too many easy ways out of this to make as big of a deal out of it as Lutz (he sounds like he is throwing a tantrum) is making.

 

[Joey D]

I think GM wants to keep the Zeta around for a while, GM tends to keep all of it's platforms on board for a while and use them over a wide range of vehicles.

Could they lobby against it? Yes they could but that would generate a ton of bad press against GM, something they don't want any more.

 

[JCE]

Japan and Europe could do the 34mpg for RWD cars--why can't US automakers? I blame both sides. The leftists and treehuggers WANT the US to fail and the US automakers are looking for a reason to be bailed out by the US Goverment. And on top of all of that is the STUPID US GOVERMENT who won't get its hand out of the cookie jar. Do you WANT people to leave your country? The Zeta platform would of almost single-handedly save GM from the depths of death--and now with the US Goverment along with treehugging morons would want it GM is almost doomed to failure. Who wants to drive another round of boring FWD slush-mobiles with good classic car names attached to them. I may hate Chrysler but at least they did develop 2 RWD saloon cars. And I thank Ford also for coming out with an AWD Fusion and Five Hundred/Taurus.

The answer for GM? If the Goverment is requiring the entire automaker's average mpg to be 34mpg just green-up your other cars + add some hybrids and put some small displacement engines on the bottom range of those Zeta cars and you'll be alright. If Toyota can put a 4cyl engine in a huge Camry boat then you can stuff a 4cyl in your Zeta cars bottom end model.

 

[Joey D]

GM tried a small four cylinder engine in a RWD car before...it failed and ruined their sporty car image.

Remember this?

One of the top ten worst cars ever made in the history of the automobile.

 

[Tornado]

I say apples to oranges. The Camaro was a muscle car, and GM putting the I4 in that was dumber than Ford selling a Pinto as a Mustang. GM could start, say, the Impala off with a I4 and throw it into fleet sales, saving the V6 and V8 cars for car buyers.

 

[skip0110]

I don't think a Zeta with an Ecotec is going to be much slower than the LX cars with the 2.7 V6.

 

[Joey D]

I just think it will hurt the performance image GM is fighting for. I mean how can Pontiac be an exciting brand and try to market it's flagship sedan with a standard four cylinder? There is nothing exciting about a big car with a small engine.

The Commodore weight between 3726–4023 lbs, and I'm guess you'll see an increased amount of weight in the American model do to changes and what not they'll need to make. I'm going to say around 3900lbs.

The 4 cylinder Camry weighs in at 3,285 lbs.

Although come to think of it they do have the 170 hp engine in the Cobalt, maybe that could work.

 

[Omnis]

Crap, what will we do without the Zeta platform? YSSMAN won't have anything to post about.

 

[Jay]

Maybe if they brought the Zeta's crazy weight down to a resonable level they would have more success with fuel economy and *gasp* performance!.

and Yes, by 2017 a whole new platform will be made anyway.

 

[JCE]

Crap, what will we do without the Zeta platform? YSSMAN won't have anything to post about.

Hahaha! Sorry YSS that was funny.

GM tried a small four cylinder engine in a RWD car before...it failed and ruined their sporty car image.

Remember this?

One of the top ten worst cars ever made in the history of the automobile.

The Berlinetta was mainly brought in for the gas and emissions BS the Goverment was putting forth. I will say that as a positive the Berlinetta had one cool instrument cluster. The is an artists drawing of what it looked like, it was actually a very cool cluster--which begs the question on why the other F-body models never saw it?

I do agree that along with the 4cyl that was in the 80's-93 Foxbody was equally stupid I do at least applaud the effort.

I say apples to oranges. The Camaro was a muscle car, and GM putting the I4 in that was dumber than Ford selling a Pinto as a Mustang. GM could start, say, the Impala off with a I4 and throw it into fleet sales, saving the V6 and V8 cars for car buyers.

Fleet sales is exactly the market for the low displacement engines in these cars. Not many normal customers are going to buy them--but some will. Give the customers the CHOICE--that's something the US automakers need to do. In Europe there are so many engine choices for one model--why can't the US do that? If the US Goverment REALLY wants to help out the enviorment why don't they clean up diesel fuel to European specs and let the automakers put out some diesel models. I see TONS of diesel Jetta, Golf, and Passat models on the road so I know there is a market for them.

I don't think a Zeta with an Ecotec is going to be much slower than the LX cars with the 2.7 V6.

+1 Exactly. Put in the engine from the Cobalt SS line and that is plenty enough power for the larger saloon cars. And as I stated above diesel is a great alternative to get that 34mpg average. It can be done, Jeremy Clarkson drove a V8 turbo diesel Audi 800 miles on one tank of diesel fuel...averaged 40mpg too.

I just think it will hurt the performance image GM is fighting for. I mean how can Pontiac be an exciting brand and try to market it's flagship sedan with a standard four cylinder? There is nothing exciting about a big car with a small engine.

The Commodore weight between 3726–4023 lbs, and I'm guess you'll see an increased amount of weight in the American model do to changes and what not they'll need to make. I'm going to say around 3900lbs.

The 4 cylinder Camry weighs in at 3,285 lbs.

Although come to think of it they do have the 170 hp engine in the Cobalt, maybe that could work.

The Camry also only has 158bhp and a torque number not flattering. It is one slow boat. So if you think about it a 170bhp engine in a 3800-3900lb car isn't so bad--America has done this before...lol its called the 1980's.

Again, clean diesel is the answer here.

 

[Joey D]

The 2.4L Ecotec only has a 163 lb. ft. of torque while the Camry's 2.4L has 161 lb. ft. Both look to have poor torque numbers.

 

[YSSMAN]

Crap, what will we do without the Zeta platform? YSSMAN won't have anything to post about.

Unfortunately it would seem as though it would be true. But generally speaking, I just don't see GM giving up that easily. I recall a time not too long ago when GM 'paused' Zeta development before due to fuel economy and quality issues, but they pushed forward, and got a lot of positive press about it.

I think the key word here in the Bush Administration's proposal is just that, it is a proposal, which may or may not pass in the House or Senate. Likely, I could see it passing in the House, but in the Senate, it is a bit shaky.

...Either way, I don't see this as a massive hurdle for the car overall. As noted several times before, GM wants to do a diesel-powered Zeta, which should easily attain 40 MPG without trying too hard, and beyond that, a properly geared model with the 3.6L V6 should be able to get well-above 30 MPG if it is tuned correctly...

But this doesn't just spell disaster for GM either, we've got to remember that the majority of the cars in this class are just beginning to scratch at 30 MPG, and only the four-cylinder models come anywhere close to getting over it.

...That said, there are ways to get around it. GM is going to have to play hard-ball with their transmission program, spacing gears out far enough to get the power to the ground in a reasonable way, but also gearing the top-end for high MPG. Furthermore, cylinder deactivation may need to be applied to more than just the V8 models, and maybe see it appear on the V6 models as well. Beyond that, what about the engines made available in other parts of the world? If the 2.8L V6 was matched up with the 6L80E, and geared correctly, I'm sure that it could achieve over 34 MPG without cylinder deactivation, the problem is, there might not be enough power there... Thereby GM would have to work with Saab on the turbo variant, maybe dig up or create some variable-geometry turbos, and hope for the best...

There are solutions out there, and GM knows it. I'm going to be really disappointed, just like many other Americans in general, if the Zeta program doesn't reach full-steam...

 

[harrytuttle]

Shock: General Motors puts Zeta rear-wheel-drive revolution on hold

Source:

"We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from [rear-wheel-drive cars]," Lutz said. "We'll decide on our rear-drive cars when the government decides on CO(-2) levels and CAFE regulations," he added.

That kind of says it all right there. They couldn't figure it out before, and they can't figure it out now. Why? They choose not to. They bury their heads in the sand, and hope the whole thing will blow over, but when it actually arrives, they're so far behind the curve that they panic, scrap whatever medium-term plans they have, and just thrown crap at the fan and hope someone buys it. Ten years from now we'll see a repeat of the early 1980's -- another "dark ages". It's going to take one of the Big Three going out of business to get the other two to wake up. And they'd deserve it.

Japan and Europe could do the 34mpg for RWD cars--why can't US automakers?

Seriously. It's ridiculous. It's lazy, and it's ignorant on the part of the manufacturers. [see above]

I blame both sides. The leftists and treehuggers WANT the US to fail and the US automakers are looking for a reason to be bailed out by the US Goverment. And on top of all of that is the STUPID US GOVERMENT who won't get its hand out of the cookie jar. Do you WANT people to leave your country? The Zeta platform would of almost single-handedly save GM from the depths of death--and now with the US Goverment along with treehugging morons would want it GM is almost doomed to failure. Who wants to drive another round of boring FWD slush-mobiles with good classic car names attached to them. I may hate Chrysler but at least they did develop 2 RWD saloon cars. And I thank Ford also for coming out with an AWD Fusion and Five Hundred/Taurus.

The "leftists" don't actually want anything to fail, they just keep preaching that the sky is falling, since complaining that the world isn't the utopia they wish it could be is what they thrive on. The "right" on the other hand just storm through things, preaching "free market" until someone dies, and then they keep on going anyway.

 

[misnblu]

So what ever happened to the original Cafe standards that were commissioned in the late '70s and early '80's?
Seems they were forgotten completely for new found power and larger vehicles which smacks all of the Cafe standards in the face.

If the oil companies would quit jacking around with the pricing of petrol while filling their coffers with profits beyond compare, would ease the Bush administrations request to bring back the Cafe standards or at least the proposals they seek.

Many have been looking forward to the Zeta platform and still hope it happens.
GM needs this.

 

[Eric.]

I just think it will hurt the performance image GM is fighting for. I mean how can Pontiac be an exciting brand and try to market it's flagship sedan with a standard four cylinder? There is nothing exciting about a big car with a small engine.

The Commodore weight between 3726–4023 lbs, and I'm guess you'll see an increased amount of weight in the American model do to changes and what not they'll need to make. I'm going to say around 3900lbs.

The 4 cylinder Camry weighs in at 3,285 lbs.

Although come to think of it they do have the 170 hp engine in the Cobalt, maybe that could work.

Don't make the four banger the standard engine. Leave it as a cost reducing option.

 

[land sea air]

The only problem with offering lots of options in engines is that it costs money. If no one buys the 4 cyl models (certainly foreseeable) then GM loses money from producing them and we see more discounts and rebates just to sell the things.

 

[Pupik]

Crap, what will we do without the Zeta platform? YSSMAN won't have anything to post about.

As long as a Toyota exists, he'll have plenty to say.

 

[skip0110]

The only problem with offering lots of options in engines is that it costs money. If no one buys the 4 cyl models (certainly foreseeable) then GM loses money from producing them and we see more discounts and rebates just to sell the things.

GM offers a Silverado with like 20-30 different drivetrain options (4.3 V6, 4.8 V8, 5.3 iron V8, 5.3 aluminum V8, 6.0 V8, 2 flex fuel engines, and 2wd or 4wd trannies, heavy duty or standard trannies on each), so I think they know how to set up their supply chain to offer a Ecotec as well as maybe a pushrod V6, a DOHC V6 as well as 2 V8 options in the Zeta, if they really wanted to.

 

[land sea air]

the average person that buys a truck is IMO very different than the average car buyer, trucks are generally needed for very specific purposes and as such, GM offers many different drivetrain/engine options so that if you need to go off road, or you need to tow a lot or you need to carry people, you can get the right truck with the right price and power. Cars are less specific, you might want a bigger one or a smaller one, and maybe a more powerful one, but in the US people will most likely shop elsewhere instead of checking different option boxes. Notice how some newer trucks/SUVs have vastly simplified model ranges.

 

[YSSMAN]

GM offers a Silverado with like 20-30 different drivetrain options (4.3 V6, 4.8 V8, 5.3 iron V8, 5.3 aluminum V8, 6.0 V8, 2 flex fuel engines, and 2wd or 4wd trannies, heavy duty or standard trannies on each), so I think they know how to set up their supply chain to offer a Ecotec as well as maybe a pushrod V6, a DOHC V6 as well as 2 V8 options in the Zeta, if they really wanted to.

The basic ideas that have been floating around for the Camaro have suggested the use of the 3.9L OHV V6 (240 BHP) for the standard version, and based off of the current Impala LTZ with the same engine and the four-speed automatic, it should be good for 22/27 MPG. Add a six-speed automatic, and we can probably bump those figures up by 2 MPG, add cylinder-deactivation, and we could see even more...

Still, a high-output I4 that is tuned well for low-end power doesn't seem like a horrible idea in an Impala replacement, as they could do a small multi-displacement turbo on the current 2.2L version, and probably get almost 200 BHP... About what we find with Ford and Chrysler V6 engines...

In all seriousness, diesel power is where its at. God be praised if GM looks into that!

 

[land sea air]

yeah if they can stop worrying about people associating them with the horrible diesel v8s from the 70s

 

[Philly]

Idea!!💡

Take the European and Japanese road! Scrap big SUVs (or heavily re-think them) and start making small cars! Then GM can raise the bottom end of their economy and raise the top end as well. If the middle stays the same, fuel economy will go up.

So basically, cut weight. Being heavy accomplishes nothing.

GM is not a stupid manufacturer. They are the only American company capable of producing a plan to save themselves. I do not question GM's ability to do a little problem solving.

 

[Tornado]

I believe trucks and SUVs are held to different CAFE standards, and therefore scrapping the brand new GMT900 trucks after GM threw at least half a billion dollars at them would be putting the final nail in the coffin.

Either way, the more I think about it the more I think that this is some cruel joke. I can't wrap my head around cancelling the Zeta cars after all the hype and development money has been used simply because GM doesn't even want to attempt to solve the problem that would be solved very easily (as has been established). It seems like an April Fools joke that was a couple weeks late, and the way Lutz worded his phrases makes it seem even more so.

 

[YSSMAN]

I believe trucks and SUVs are held to different CAFE standards, and therefore scrapping the brand new GMT900 trucks after GM threw at least half a billion dollars at them would be putting the final nail in the coffin.

Either way, the more I think about it the more I think that this is some cruel joke. I can't wrap my head around cancelling the Zeta cars after all the hype and development money has been used simply because GM doesn't even want to attempt to solve the problem that would be solved very easily (as has been established). It seems like an April Fools joke that was a couple weeks late, and the way Lutz worded his phrases makes it seem even more so.

On the truck subject, yes they are subject to different standards. I think the big difference is that trucks weighing over 6000lbs (or is it more, like a lot more?) don't have to post fuel economy figures, nor conform to any specific level. Only the largest GMT900s fit into that category, and the only one I can really think of outside of the 3500 HDs is the Cadillac Escalade EXT...

...With the Zeta program on the whole, I know what you mean. To completely scrap a program that they had killed, revived, and then killed again is a bit senseless. We'll see what comes of it I guess, but I just don't see how hard it would be to modify what they've already got to be able to create the necessary level of fuel economy to get these cars sold in the US without a problem...