Free Speech

  • Thread starter A2K78
  • 1,029 comments
  • 64,793 views
Hey as long as we're talking about hypotheticals, it seems to be you'd enter into a contract after you'd described what you want and then the craftsman could just approve / decline / negotiate it, with no serious losses incurred by any one side of the party. Unless there's some other legal stumbling block that I'm ignorant of? I agree with the ruling but what was the point of pleading it?

I feel like this is going to get twisted up in so many unpredictable and somewhat annoying ways. Or will it get conveniently used because an artisan or tradesman took a greater workload than their deadlines could demand? Either you agree to do something or your don't...
 
Last edited:
Correct ruling or not, "if" seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
Not really. A business can seek an injunction for freedom to operate. Let's also not pretend that she was just going to avoid this circumstance. Her citing the masterpiece cake shop is very on point.

Or will it get conveniently used because an artisan or tradesman took a greater workload than their deadlines could demand? Either you agree to do something or your don't...
The question at issue is whether she's allowed to say no to that request.
 
Last edited:
The headlines continue to roll in on this case (303 Creative v. Elenis), claiming all sorts of awful things.

"The Supreme Court has Opened the Door to Discrimination" - NYT
"The Supreme Court's 303 Creative Ruling is 'profoundly wrong'" - Washington Post
"Supreme Court 303 Creative decision distorts religious freedom. We are no longer equal." - USA Today
"Opinion: With its 303 Creative decision, the Supreme Court opens the door to discrimination" - LA Times

And President Biden's statement, which is a bit more measured

Biden
In America, no person should face discrimination simply because of who they are or who they love. The Supreme Court’s disappointing decision in 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis undermines that basic truth, and painfully it comes during Pride month when millions of Americans across the country join together to celebrate the contributions, resilience, and strength of the LGBTQI+ community. While the Court’s decision only addresses expressive original designs, I’m deeply concerned that the decision could invite more discrimination against LGBTQI+ Americans. More broadly, today’s decision weakens long-standing laws that protect all Americans against discrimination in public accommodations – including people of color, people with disabilities, people of faith, and women.

And questioning its legitimacy:

"Supreme Court LGBTQ 'Fake Case' Could be Reversed - Lawyer" - Newsweek

There are people very dear to me living near me in Colorado who came back to the US recently because of the supreme court gay marriage decision. They are practically packing their bags to flee again in light of this decision, likely because of these headlines which have scared the crap out of them. They're concerned they'll be turned away at hospitals or whatever. It's irresponsible of these news outlets AND the dissenting opinion to intentionally mischaracterize the majority ruling in this case. I've read the majority opinion. It's amazing to see how willfully wrong these headlines are. The majority opinion says things like this:

"Nor does the dissent’s reimagination end there. It claims that, “for the first time in its history,” the Court “grants a business open to the public” a “right to refuse to serve members of a protected class.” Post, at 1; see also id., at 26, n. 10, 35. Never mind that we do no such thing
"

And

"we do not question the vital role public accommodations laws play in realizing the civil rights of all Americans. This Court has recognized that governments in this country have a “compelling interest” in eliminating discrimination in places of public accommodation. Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U. S. 609, 628 (1984);see also Hurley, 515 U. S., at 571–572. This Court has recognized, too, that public accommodations laws “vindicate the deprivation of personal dignity that surely accompanies denials of equal access to public establishments.” Heart ofAtlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, 379 U. S. 241, 250(1964) (internal quotation marks omitted)"

I have a hard time remembering an example where a supreme court decision was so thoroughly misunderstood and mischaracterized. But it is harmful and stressful to people that I care about. I have tried to reach out to them on this issue, but they are so used to being victimized by the law that they struggle to even listen for a moment to any message other than "panic!"

It is painful to watch this train wreck, especially because I can see the harm already playing out.
 
Last edited:
It's almost like there's consequences for the actions of the past 2 years of the highest court in the country and it's makeup of at least two corrupt partisan hacks.
 
Last edited:
It's almost like there's consequences for the actions of the past 2 years of the highest court in the country and it's makeup of at least two corrupt partisan hacks.
I don't think Sotomayor and Jackson are corrupt partisan hacks. They are scaring millions of gay people for no reason by misrepresenting this case and the majority opinion though.

And so are the news networks that cover this story with their deeply flawed interpretation. The people you intended to call "partisan hacks" got this case exactly correct, and honestly, I think they gave gay people a cause to celebrate with this case. 303 Creative affirms the same refuge against state-enforced speech that Mastercakes created. It offers gay people freedom from clients requiring them to create websites decrying gay marriage. It offers all people the protection of free speech in creative work. This case would have been immediately used against creative people, especially if they are gay, to LEGALLY force them away from their creative pursuits if Sotomayor and Jackson got their way.
 
Last edited:
Hey as long as we're talking about hypotheticals, it seems to be you'd enter into a contract after you'd described what you want and then the craftsman could just approve / decline / negotiate it, with no serious losses incurred by any one side of the party. Unless there's some other legal stumbling block that I'm ignorant of? I agree with the ruling but what was the point of pleading it?

I feel like this is going to get twisted up in so many unpredictable and somewhat annoying ways. Or will it get conveniently used because an artisan or tradesman took a greater workload than their deadlines could demand? Either you agree to do something or your don't...
There's no workable means of enforcing equal accommodation through expression. The whole point from was Smith's end was desire to explicitly state an unwillingness to accommodate, through expression, a disfavored group.
 
I don't think Sotomayor and Jackson are corrupt partisan hacks. They are scaring millions of gay people for no reason by misrepresenting this case and the majority opinion though.

And so are the news networks that cover this story with their deeply flawed interpretation. The people you intended to call "partisan hacks" got this case exactly correct, and honestly, I think they gave gay people a cause to celebrate with this case. 303 Creative affirms the same refuge against state-enforced speech that Mastercakes created. It offers gay people freedom from clients requiring them to create websites decrying gay marriage. It offers all people the protection of free speech in creative work. This case would have been immediately used against creative people, especially if they are gay, to LEGALLY force them away from their creative pursuits if Sotomayor and Jackson got their way.
That's great and all, but this case doesn't exist in a vacuum.
 
Because you're being deliberately obtuse about what I said? Because you keep bringing up arguments that have nothing to do with what I said in order to say how "correct" the ruling was? Because you're trotting out that "I read about humor in a book once" Danoff wit in the process? It's also never really been in doubt that things that exist outside of Libertarian interpretations of whatever the matter at hand is are hard for you to reconcile with your world view (even as its increasingly co-opted by horrific scumbag people to justify hurting those they don't like), thanks.




Let me be explicit so when you reply disingenuously again I can make it clear in advance that I never cared about the specific "intended" meaning of the technically correct ruling and was talking about the obvious reason for the response to it (exactly like I never cared about the Libertarian reasoning people trotted for why it was accurate for Roe v Wade to be overturned when for damn sure that had nothing to do with why it was):
There are people very dear to me living near me in Colorado who came back to the US recently because of the supreme court gay marriage decision. They are practically packing their bags to flee again in light of this decision,
They probably should be if they have the means. The highest court of this country has a makeup of judges that can probably fairly be considered as having separate interests at heart than the protection of their rights as the court goes down its checklist of Republican pet projects. It has two judges who have repeatedly been openly hostile and mocking/condescending to said people's concerns and specifically want to overturn a case from less than a decade ago that gave them equal rights; just like they were towards the other things that have had decades of judicial precedent that Republicans never liked.
Those people are also looking at an election that has been projected to possibly flip entirely Republican in the legislature; with a wildly popular fascist troll of a presidential candidate who specifically promises to do things to hurt them and another one who has already provided a blueprint in his home state how to do so when he has complete control of the government. There could very well be a situation in only 16 months where all three branches of government are controlled by a group of people who think the back half of The Wall sounds like a swell situation to try and recreate; and this is already ignoring the same harmful things some scumbag bought an entire social media site in order to perpetuate and advocate for on behalf of the party of government that isn't even in power.

All that was probably quite a going concern for those people very dear to you long before the Libertarian happiness of "This court case shouldn't be imagined as something that can used to abuse minority groups because the Republicans who ruled on it said so and it's technically the correct verdict" was rendered and the fallout from it started. Maybe they shouldn't pack their bags now, but they definitely should make sure their passports are good; and if they are that dear to you perhaps you can try empathy rather than judgement.



And if I need to be any more explicit, I'll expand on that last point even more too:
I don't think Sotomayor and Jackson are corrupt partisan hacks. They are scaring millions of gay people for no reason by misrepresenting this case and the majority opinion though.
You know what disenfranchised minorities are probably scared more about than the media firestorm borne out of the fabricated case deliberately targeted and structured and gift wrapped to the conservative Supreme Court as a response to Obergefell but with alleged "limited" carve out?
That possibly only 2 out of 3 new people in the court since 2016 need to be convinced to completely overturn the latter when (probably) Ken Paxton files a lawsuit that's shopped to Kacsmaryk to argue that the Respect for Marriage Act is unconstitutional; and that multiple members on that court have expressed specific interest in taking up a case for no other reason than to do that, just like they already did with abortion as a concept in general and probably will also do whenever the mifepristone lawsuit gets to them. Just like Paxton is trying to do RIGHT NOW with Section 230, for reasoning that is entirely "I don't like that my constituents, stupid racist antivaxx Republicans, got posts deleted on Twitter" and not at all anything to do with freedom of speech.
Or maybe that it won't even need to get that far because a potential Republican president with an increasingly hostile Republican legislature wouldn't even need to have the fundamentalist Christian Trump federal court judges legislate from the bench for the entire country on the GOP's behalf.






But probably mostly the first thing, because (again) it's almost like there's consequences for the actions of the past 2 years of the highest court in the country and it's makeup of at least two corrupt partisan hacks; and a reason I said that in response to you complaining about extreme negative sentiment to a Supreme Court decision of an openly partisan Supreme Court and not actually anything about the judgment itself.
 
Last edited:
Because you're being deliberately obtuse about what I said?
I understood what you said, and I made that clear when I said "The people you intended to call 'partisan hacks' got this case exactly correct". So I'm not being "deliberately obtuse", I'm openly acknowledging your intended meaning. I'm also openly acknowledging your accidental meaning in light of my previous post. Your response was just a little too flippant for its own good. Because the consequences I was highlighting were a result of different justices than you wanted to direct your comment at. To make your response land, you needed to explain a little more about what "consequences" you were talking about. Without that context, you were referring to the consequences I was talking about - which were consequences of the rhetoric of the dissent (and the news).
Because you keep bringing up arguments that have nothing to do with what I said in order to say how "correct" the ruling was? Because you're trotting out that "I read about humor in a book once" Danoff wit in the process? It's also never really been in doubt that things that exist outside of Libertarian interpretations of whatever the matter at hand is are hard for you to reconcile with your world view (even as its increasingly co-opted by horrific scumbag people to justify hurting those they don't like), thanks.
You're just railing against an imaginary punching bag here. None of this supports your own statement about existing in a vacuum.
Let me be explicit so when you reply disingenuously again I can make it clear in advance that I never cared about the specific "intended" meaning of the technically correct ruling and was talking about the obvious reason for the response to it (exactly like I never cared about the Libertarian reasoning people trotted for why it was accurate for Roe v Wade to be overturned when for damn sure that had nothing to do with why it was):
Implying that I was in favor of ruling against abortion rights is completely uncalled for. I've dedicated many pages of this site to how much I value the protection of abortion. This is a really weird thing to try to put on me. It's like you're thinking of someone else.
They probably should be if they have the means. The highest court of this country has a makeup of judges that can probably fairly be considered as having separate interests at heart than the protection of their rights as the court goes down its checklist of Republican pet projects. It has two judges who have repeatedly been openly hostile and mocking/condescending to said people's concerns and specifically want to overturn a case from less than a decade ago that gave them equal rights; just like they were towards the other things that have had decades of judicial precedent that Republicans never liked.
Completely agree.
Those people are also looking at an election that has been projected to possibly flip entirely Republican in the legislature; with a wildly popular fascist troll of a presidential candidate who specifically promises to do things to hurt them and another one who has already provided a blueprint in his home state how to do so when he has complete control of the government. There could very well be a situation in only 16 months where all three branches of government are controlled by a group of people who think the back half of The Wall sounds like a swell situation to try and recreate; and this is already ignoring the same harmful things some scumbag bought an entire social media site in order to perpetuate and advocate for on behalf of the party of government that isn't even in power.
Completely agree.
All that was probably quite a going concern for those people very dear to you long before the Libertarian happiness of "This court case shouldn't be imagined as something that can used to abuse minority groups because the Republicans who ruled on it said so and it's technically the correct verdict" was rendered and the fallout from it started. Maybe they shouldn't pack their bags now, but they definitely should make sure their passports are good; and if they are that dear to you perhaps you can try empathy rather than judgement.
It's not just of concern to them, it's of concern to ME. Again, I have dedicated pages of this site to explaining that. Not only do I agree with most of your characterization here for them, I agree with it as a concern for me as well, and all Americans, and even non-Americans because of how destabilizing what you mention is.

You know what disenfranchised minorities are probably scared more about than the media firestorm borne out of the fabricated case deliberately targeted and structured and gift wrapped to the conservative Supreme Court as a response to Obergefell but with alleged "limited" carve out?
Not only did I empathize with their concern over this, I was in contact with them regularly and following the supreme court closely watching for the insane overturn of Obergefell that seemed destined to come. The day congress passed the gay marriage act, I celebrated with them.
That possibly only 2 out of 3 new people in the court since 2016 need to be convinced to completely overturn the latter when (probably) Ken Paxton files a lawsuit that's shopped to Kacsmaryk to argue that the Respect for Marriage Act is unconstitutional; and that multiple members on that court have expressed specific interest in taking up a case for no other reason than to do that, just like they already did with abortion as a concept in general and probably will also do whenever the mifepristone lawsuit gets to them. Just like Paxton is trying to do RIGHT NOW with Section 230, for reasoning that is entirely "I don't like that my constituents, stupid racist antivaxx Republicans, got posts deleted on Twitter" and not at all anything to do with freedom of speech.
Or maybe that it won't even need to get that far because a potential Republican president with an increasingly hostile Republican legislature wouldn't even need to have the fundamentalist Christian Trump federal court judges legislate from the bench for the entire country on the GOP's behalf.
I'm deeply concerned about all of this. And I think I side with you on all of it. I'm not sure why you assume otherwise about me.
But probably mostly the first thing, because (again) it's almost like there's consequences for the actions of the past 2 years of the highest court in the country and it's makeup of at least two corrupt partisan hacks; and a reason I said that in response to you complaining about extreme negative sentiment to a Supreme Court decision of an openly partisan Supreme Court and not actually anything about the judgment itself.
This case is not a consequence of that. And I'm not entirely sure I take your meaning correctly, but I will make a good-faith attempt below. And before you roll your eyes about me being "disingenuous" as you claim earlier, in that case there was no ambiguity about who you were talking about, and I made that clear. I understood your meaning, and your unintentional implications and pointed those implications out to you. Right now, I'm still not entirely sure I understand your argument about "this case doesn't exist in a vacuum", but I think I have a little bit more of an understanding than I did a moment ago. So here is a good faith attempt at understanding what you're trying to tell me.

You think that the hysteria over 303 Creative is caused by the acknowledged bigotry and borderline-insanity of some of the court's members. You lay the blame for Sotomayor's reaction, and subsequently the news, squarely at the feet of Alito and Thomas because of their awful statements and views. I assume those are the partisan hacks you're referring to, though a case could be made for others.

Let me know if that interpretation is incorrect.

Your interpretation cannot be true for several reasons. The first and most important reason is that Sotomayor et al. are not required to dissent with partisan hacks when they get something right - and they do from time to time. In fact, I was just reading through another case this morning in which Sotomayor and Jackson concurred with Alito (not Thomas because he was being Thomas). They were wrong to dissent in 303 Creative, and their dissent was based on what I can only consider to be a willful mischaracterization of the case. Without their choice to dissent, which was wrong, there is no hysteria. 303 Creative should have been unanimous. The dissent in that case makes no sense, and the hysteria that it creates is fabricated entirely out of that nonsensical dissent. I do understand the point that Alito and Thomas (and others) cannot be trusted. I'm saying none of them can be trusted. But if this case had been taken entirely on its merits, I believe it would have been a unanimous decision, and if it had been, there would be no hysteria over it. Sotomayor, Jackson and Kegan's strongly worded dissent is what is driving the panic. And that strongly worded dissent is misleading and shouldn't have occurred.

The second reason is that you're arguing that the case should be feared and decried because you don't like the justices that concurred. And this is fundamentally an ad hominem mistake. The case simply should not be feared and decried. It should be celebrated. The fact that you don't like the justices (I don't like them either), is neither here nor there when it comes to the effect on the law - and that is what the panic is about. Supreme court justices almost always have various opinions that are abhorrent. 303 Creative was Sotomayor, Jackson, and Kagan's turn for that. And where are we left if we must decry opinions of justices who have held abhorrent views... railing against every single decision whether it was proper and helpful and necessary or not.

There are so many reasons to hate on Alito, Thomas, and others. So many good, solid, and scary reasons. Why are we inventing more? There are so many reasons to be concerned about the direction of the country and about the future of policy. Good, solid, and scary reasons. Why are we inventing more?

TL;DR
The problems you highlight remain problems. But it does not change the facts of this case, facts that should be celebrated, including among gay people.

@DK, @Populuxe
 
Last edited:
@TexRex

I'm curious as to your take on Counterman v. Colorado. In particular the recklessness standard.

Majority Opinion
In this context, a recklessness standard—i.e., a showing that aperson “consciously disregard[ed] a substantial [and unjustifiable] risk that [his] conduct will cause harm to another,” Voisine v. UnitedStates, 579 U. S. 686, 691—is the appropriate mens rea.

There has been much made of this case - for example this article that makes claims along the lines of @Tornado above. Though this article would hardly lead you to believe that Thomas and Barrett would end up the only dissent:



And this one from the same organization that claims something clearly untrue about it. Another alarmist headline designed to get people riled up about something factually incorrect - though not nearly as bad as 303 Creative headlines.


I think the crux of the argument is this:

"The court ignores the reality that many stalkers fervently believe that their actions are or should be welcomed by their victims; indeed, the court’s holding means that the more delusional the stalker, the more the stalking is protected."

That doesn't seem to be the case to me, and I understand the court's concerns and why all of the liberal justices wrote/concurred with the majority opinion. The argument here is that conciousness is required on the part of the stalker, and if the stalker is crazy, the stalker can get away with anything. This strikes me at odds with Counterman's own pervious arrest, which the slate article highlights but doesn't explain that it undermines the article's conclusions. Counterman made direct threats against women, and was prosecuted for those threats. There is every reason to believe that the same would happen under this new ruling.

I don't think women are left powerless from veiled threats or insinuations though. The stalker can be made to be "consciously aware" that their contacting an individual causes harm to another by directly informing that stalker ("your continued contact is causing me harm" for example). That burden could be met by the victim but it wouldn't have to be. The police could make that information available to the stalker, and they are not the only ones either. It would be part of building a case. The problem seems to be a lack of willingness of law enforcement to assist in managing these kinds of emerging scenarios rather than a problem with the law itself. Narrowing free speech to bandaid an unwillingness to procedurally assist (whether that's the police or others) in stalking cases doesn't seem like a good bandaid, because it comes with real consequences on the flip side.

I'm still processing this case and the accusations of its consequences.
 
Last edited:
@TexRex

I'm curious as to your take on Counterman v. Colorado. In particular the recklessness standard.



There has been much made of this case - for example this article that makes claims along the lines of @Tornado above. Though this article would hardly lead you to believe that Thomas and Barrett would end up the only dissent:



And this one from the same organization that claims something clearly untrue about it. Another alarmist headline designed to get people riled up about something factually incorrect - though not nearly as bad as 303 Creative headlines.


I think the crux of the argument is this:

"The court ignores the reality that many stalkers fervently believe that their actions are or should be welcomed by their victims; indeed, the court’s holding means that the more delusional the stalker, the more the stalking is protected."

That doesn't seem to be the case to me, and I understand the court's concerns and why all of the liberal justices wrote/concurred with the majority opinion. The argument here is that conciousness is required on the part of the stalker, and if the stalker is crazy, the stalker can get away with anything. This strikes me at odds with Counterman's own pervious arrest, which the slate article highlights but doesn't explain that it undermines the article's conclusions. Counterman made direct threats against women, and was prosecuted for those threats. There is every reason to believe that the same would happen under this new ruling.

I don't think women are left powerless from veiled threats or insinuations though. The stalker can be made to be "consciously aware" that their contacting an individual causes harm to another by directly informing that stalker ("your continued contact is causing me harm" for example). That burden could be met by the victim but it wouldn't have to be. The police could make that information available to the stalker, and they are not the only ones either. It would be part of building a case. The problem seems to be a lack of willingness of law enforcement to assist in managing these kinds of emerging scenarios rather than a problem with the law itself. Narrowing free speech to bandaid an unwillingness to procedurally assist (whether that's the police or others) in stalking cases doesn't seem like a good bandaid, because it comes with real consequences on the flip side.

I'm still processing this case and the accusations of its consequences.
It seems like a pretty lateral move to me.

The outgoing objective standard is objective in name only. It's subjective. Subjectivity isn't eliminated because a majority agrees. The recklessness standard is still subjective, though the name is different, and subjectivity isn't great when prosecuting speakers. If a harm is subjective, especially when that supposed harm is speech-based, can it really be harmful? This subjectivity also applies to "obscenity," which I've addressed before.

I do think the notion of conscious awareness is rather ambiguous and I don't necessarily fault critics for interpretation regarding delusional parties, but I think it's an overreaction in the broader scheme. Speech is theoretically less free because the Court has lowered the bar for prosecution from having to prove intent to harm. It certainly isn't a legalization of stalking.

Popehat did a great treatment following the Counterman decison as well as a great piece on True Threats leading up to the Court hearing the case. Respectively:
 
I'm aware we don't have free speech in the UK but does our government have to be so bloody blatant about it? It barred this weapons expert from speaking at a Ministry of Defence conference after he criticised Brexit and UK asylum policy on social media.
 
Last edited:

Original article:


The Times
Ministers believe that “sunlight is the best disinfectant” and that greater transparency would force banks to change their behaviour. A government source said people’s right to express their views was sacrosanct.

Coutts was castigated by ministers yesterday over its decision to close Farage’s bank accounts after an internal review that referred to him as a “disingenuous grifter” whose views could be regarded as “xenophobic and racist”.
Rishi Sunak said: “This is wrong. No one should be barred from using basic services for their political views. Free speech is the cornerstone of our democracy.” Suella Braverman, the home secretary, said it was sinister and called for banks to have a major rethink, accusing them of “politically biased dogma”.

So this seems like they've got the free speech concept wrong, but a commenter made an interesting point: if banking is considered an essential service in the modern world, what if every bank declined to take someone on because of their views?
 
I'm aware we don't have free speech in the UK but does our government have to be so bloody blatant about it? It barred this weapons expert from speaking at a Ministry of Defence conference after he criticised Brexit and UK asylum policy on social media.
At least he didn't end up dead in a field. Yet.

Original article:




So this seems like they've got the free speech concept wrong, but a commenter made an interesting point: if banking is considered an essential service in the modern world, what if every bank declined to take someone on because of their views?
Farage getting shafted by a bank is such a non-story but the frog has got to grift. Blames all his problems on anyone except himself.

Conservatives getting mad at the free market.
 
Last edited:
At least he didn't end up dead in a field. Yet.
If we can compare His Majesty's Government to that of the Russian Federation, it's not really a good look for the Tories.
 
Last edited:
A chancellor ruled quickly Wednesday morning that those entering the Tennessee House could bring back their 8x11 signs.

Chancellor Ann Martin filed a temporary restraining order that will allow the signs until Sept. 5, which will be far past when special session concludes. The order means signs are allowed in the House gallery in the capitol and the Cordell Hull meeting rooms.

This happened after a lawsuit filed early Wednesday morning by the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee, which asked a Davidson County judge to block the Tennessee House from enforcing a newly adopted rule that prohibits protesters from displaying small signs during legislative proceedings.

The lawsuit was filed in Davidson County Chancery Court on behalf of three women who want lawmakers to pass serious gun reforms, including Nashville mother Allison Polidor, who was removed from a House subcommittee Tuesday for holding a small sign.

That sign read: "1 KID > ALL THE GUNS."

"Signs, and the action of silently holding them, are forms of speech and are protected under the First Amendment," the lawsuit argues. "The Rules of Order are entirely unreasonable....

"A sign the size of an average piece of paper cannot obstruct the view of participants or committee members and is not disruptive to the proceedings. "

In addition, the lawsuit notes that, under the new rules, "a person attending a subcommittee meeting could wear a shirt or hat or button with the Nike logo on it but cannot have a sign with the Nike logo on it that is the exact same size."

The plaintiffs are seeking an emergency injunction to stop enforcement of the rule prohibiting people from silently holding signs during House of Representative proceedings, an ACLU news release says.

“I have a close friend whose son was a third grader at The Covenant School last year. I spent most of the day on March 27, 2023 not knowing whether my friend’s son was dead or alive. He survived, but his life, and so many others, will forever be marked by this tragedy,” Polidor said in the statement.

“On August 22, 2023, I joined with so many other moms from across Tennessee to urge our lawmakers to enact common sense gun laws. I was removed for peacefully holding a small sign, and exercising my First Amendment rights. What started as a debate on gun safety has morphed into a blatant violation of my First Amendment rights.”

Another plaintiff Maryam Abolfazli said she came to watch the proceedings and express her concerns about gun safety."

“But the House’s new rule on signs prevents me from expressing what I believe to the very people elected to represent me," she said in the statement. "I joined this lawsuit to ensure that Tennesseans’ right to voice their opinions to lawmakers is protected.”
There's more than three Republicans to every Democrat in the Tennessee House of Representatives (75-24). The House Rules Committee for the Tennessee General Assembly, which created the rules package for the wider House to vote on, has two Republicans for every Democrat (8-4). Why do Republicans hate free speech?
 
Screenshot-20230831-153715-Samsung-Internet.jpg
Screenshot-20230831-154137-Samsung-Internet.jpg


Inseparable from free speech is that access to information, including that which some find offensive, not depend on permission from the state.

Republicans bitch about the nanny state even as they are no less compelled to invade the lives of citizens than those of whom they are so critical.
 
Rather than defend a clearly unconstitutional measure passed to "protect" kids from social media, the government of Utah intends to repeal the law.

Last year, Utah became the first state to pass a law limiting minors' social media use to those who had parental consent and requiring platforms to provide a way for parents to access their kids' accounts. It kicked off a wave of similar measures in statehouses across the country—laws that would require anyone using social media to prove their age through such methods as submitting biometric data or a government-issued ID.

Now that it faces a pair of challenges in federal court, the state has a new stance: "Psych! We didn't actually mean it!"

"They know it's unconstitutional. They know it's pure grandstanding and culture warrioring," writes Techdirt editor Mike Masnick. "And they don't want to face the music for abusing the rights of the citizens who elected them to support the Constitution, not undermine it."

Utah's parental consent for social media law (S.B. 152) was scheduled to take effect in March, along with a law (H.B. 311) to create liability for social media companies that "addict" kids. Both laws were challenged in December by the tech industry association NetChoice.

Then, earlier this month, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) sued on behalf of four Utah residents—including Hannah Zoulek, a teenager who identifies as queer—to stop S.B. 152. "Growing up already isn't easy, and the government making it harder to talk with people who have similar experiences to mine just makes it even more difficult," Zoulek told FIRE.

The FIRE lawsuit is still in its earliest stages, but the NetChoice lawsuit was already moving forward. A hearing on NetChoice's motion for preliminary injunction was set for February 12.

Then, on January 19, Utah lawmakers voted to postpone the law's effective date until October 1, 2024. And Utah officials asked the court to cancel the February hearing, given that the effective date had been postponed "and the Legislature is likely to repeal and replace the law during the current legislative session."

The state said in a January 19 motion that the law "is likely to be repealed in the next few weeks."

Last week, Judge David Barlow agreed to cancel the hearing about halting enforcement of the law, "given the delayed implementation…and given the possibility that the Act will be altered during Utah's legislative session." A meeting to make an updated schedule is slated for mid-March.

For now, that leaves social media companies in limbo.

Utah officials said in the January 19 motion that they "anticipate" the law being amended or replaced soon. But that's not a given, and for now the new rules are still scheduled to take effect this fall. Should tech companies prepare for that? For something similar? Nobody knows.

The state does "not even dispute the prospect of irreparable harm," noted NetChoice in a reply opposing the amended schedule. "Rather, Defendants argue that the irreparable harm is not 'imminent.'"

"NetChoice's members still need certainty about their compliance obligations well before the Act takes effect," the group stated:
The prospect that the Legislature might pass some legislation at some point that has some effect on this litigation is not enough to derail briefing that is well underway and set for hearing. This legislation has not even been introduced. Its terms are not public knowledge. Nor are its constitutional flaws or its overlap with the Act at issue here (if any). In any event, no one can make any guarantees about the outcome or timing of the legislative process. In the meanwhile, NetChoice's members still face an active choice between incurring unrecoverable compliance costs with an unconstitutional law or confronting potential enforcement actions when the Act takes effect in October.
If all of this represents Utah recognizing that its social media statute is an unworkable, unconstitutional, privacy-infringing mess…great! But it also highlights a fundamental issue with politics these days: lawmakers who are more interested in passing legislation that makes a statement than passing legislation that actually works.

We've seen this recently with tech bills, measures meant to curb abortion access, laws meant to defy "wokeness," and other restrictions on books, performances, and academic subjects that deal with race, sex, or gender themes. Politicians often seem more intent to signal anger or disgust—and capture the anger and disgust of constituents—than to make changes that pass constitutional muster.

Sometimes this may just be cluelessness, and other times it may be deliberately designed to test the limits of protected rights. But there are also situations—like this one in Utah, or an Ohio town's speech-restricting statute against aiding or abetting abortion—where authorities simply back down when challenged, suggesting they know this was never going to fly and basically just passed it as a P.R. move.

Hating on Big Tech is an especially good way to garner positive attention these days. And saying you're doing something to "protect kids" is a time-worn way to get props.

Besides, lawmakers are as susceptible to moral panic about new technology as anyone else, making them vulnerable to pleas to "Do something!" even if they know—or at least should know—that the Constitution frowns on it.

Ultimately, this winds up wasting time and a lot of taxpayer money. But as long as that doesn't actually translate to negative consequences for the officials whose support these laws, there's little downside for them to keep trying.

Social media age-check measures like Utah's "violate the First Amendment…rob users of anonymity, pose privacy and security risks, and could be used to block some people from being able to use social media at all," as the American Civil Liberties Union puts it.

Alas, whatever happens in Utah, it looks like we're going to be playing whack-a-mole with similar laws for a while.

Arkansas and Ohio passed social media age verification laws last year—the Social Media Safety Act and the Parental Notification by Social Media Operators Act, respectively—though courts have preliminarily blocked enforcement of both.

Louisiana also passed social media age verification measure last year (the Secure Online Child Interaction and Age Limitation Act), as did Texas (the Securing Children Online Through Parental Empowerment Act, or SCOPE). The Louisiana measure is supposed to take effect in July, and the Texas law is slated to take effect in September.

Similar proposals are now on the table in Florida, Georgia, and New Jersey.

And this isn't even counting the laws passed or under consideration to card people visiting porn websites.

There's also federal legislation—like the Social Media Child Protection Act and the Protecting Kids on Social Media Act—that would require nationwide age verification by social media platforms. And both at the federal and state level, proposals like these have been gaining bipartisan support. For many Democrats and Republicans alike, free speech is out and childproofing the internet is in this year.
Huh. Maybe the government conditioning access to otherwise protected (against penalty or prosecution by the state or and nothing else) expression through social media on what amounts to "papers, please" is neither constitutional nor conducive to expressive freedom broadly. If only someone would tell politicians as much--oh...

COLOR]
 
This is peak Utah. Nevermind that the Great Salt Lake is drying up and will cause an arsenic cloud that will overwhelm SLC and ruin the ski economy, nevermind that a majority of buildings are not earthquake retrofitted, nevermind that education is woefully underfunded or that housing prices are out of control. Nope, nevermind any of that, the Utah state congress absolutely needs to focus on stuff that doesn't matter, will never go anywhere, and will fold like BYU's football team against a legitimate opponent.

It's also worth noting the Utah's congress isn't full time like it is in most states, it only meets twice a year or something like that and is only in session for a short amount of time. So far this session their "big win"? Restricting bathrooms because the .05% of the Utah trans population was decimating toilets or something.
 
She doesn't need to win. She just has to play the part of a plucky rebel taking on the evil woke Disney empire so the edgelords can lap it up. Good thing for her Musk has some money to burn left over from the wage bills he saved during his last ideological purge.

1707264333543.png
 
Last edited:
It seems that Taylor Swift and Elon Musk have the exact same enemy: curation of publicly available information.


Thus far it's only cost Musk his reputation, standing, respect, and $44bn to cause mild inconvenience. I wonder how far Tay Tay will go...
 
Thus far it's only cost Musk his reputation, standing, respect, and $44bn to cause mild inconvenience. I wonder how far Tay Tay will go...

She's relatively poor compared to Elon so she can't go as far.
 
I guess no one's told her that the First Amendment doesn't protect her from non-governmental consequences for the ****** things she says.
In fairness, whilst Musk might be playing the freedom of speech card, Carano's lawyers are making the case that Disney violated Californian labour laws by sacking her for specific political views.

Section 1101 of the California Labor Code provides: No employer shall make, adopt, or enforce any rule, regulation, or policy:
(a) Forbidding or preventing employees from engaging or participating in politics or from becoming candidates for public office.
(b) Controlling or directing, or tending to control or direct the political activities or affiliations of employees.

Section 1102 of the California Labor Code provides: No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity


I don't think Disney can deny it, though I suppose in practice it will come down to what the contractual situation actually was at the time, and whether Disney could prove reasonable grounds for dismissal for, say, damaging the brand or similar.
 
Last edited:

Latest Posts

Back