Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Diehardracer]

It's because of the way the series is being restructured. Cars built to the 2014 regulations will be known as "TC1", whilst cars built to the pre-2014 regulations will still be allowed to compete, but will be known as "TC2". The idea is that TC2 will allow for larger grids until it is eventually phased out.

However, BMW is not building a TC1 car. Their existing cars will be eligible to enter in TC2, but won't be able to compete with TC1. If Coronel switched to the RML Cruze, it is so that he can drive in the top category.

Will this then not only see an end to the 320si certainly in the WTCC but also any hopes that BMW may return with a works effort if they aren't involved in some programme this year?

We have it seems been talking along much the same lines about SEAT. Will they/won't they come back to the WTCC. I guess we can now say the same about BMW.

 

[Bo]

I'd be surprised if any new manufacturers committed to the new rules. Why didn't they choose the readily available NGTC package and not have to make up a whole new set of regulations?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Until a set of rules is adopted on an international scale, I don't see BMW preparing a customer car or factory team. I liked S2000, and I liked the fact that several championships ran it.

 

[Bo]

Until a set of rules is adopted on an international scale, I don't see BMW preparing a customer car or factory team. I liked S2000, and I liked the fact that several championships ran it.

That's just not happening with any new regulations, and that worries me. If one set of regulations has a slight dip in popularity one year, it could kill the series. That's why I thought this could be a fatal move by the FIA for creating their own rules instead of choosing NGTC, which is cheaper, already proven popular and has a wide range of cars already running. I'm going to be honest here and say if these new regulations don't provide some serious interest, I can't see WTCC continuing for much longer.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'd be surprised if any new manufacturers committed to the new rules. Why didn't they choose the readily available NGTC package and not have to make up a whole new set of regulations?

Because the cars are massively different? WTCC are still build to S2000 Regs, even STCC ditched NGTC regs.

Also NGTC isn't cheap.

 

[Bo]

If you have a shell and the option of building it to S2000 or NGTC, NGTC would be cheaper. And what's the issue with them still being S2000? It doesn't make a difference, it's just a regulation switch. It worked very well in BTCC, so I see this as an unnecessary risk to take.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

If you have a shell and the option of building it to S2000 or NGTC, NGTC would be cheaper. And what's the issue with them still being S2000? It doesn't make a difference, it's just a regulation switch. It worked very well in BTCC, so I see this as an unnecessary risk to take.

I await your proof that S2000 is cheaper to build compared to NGTC bar in mind you can't build your own NGTC parts.

 

[Bo]

I await your proof that S2000 is cheaper to build compared to NGTC bar in mind you can't build your own NGTC parts.

What would be easier for a new manufacturer in WTCC if they were to run NGTC - buy an off the shelf package or develop and fabricate their own car for new rules that haven't been proven yet?

This is the outline from ToCA on NGTC regulations:

"Teams will have far less of their capital tied up through not having to maintain a large spares inventory – the major component suppliers will maintain a sufficient level of inventory to service the teams.

Car design/development/build costs will be reduced by some 50 per cent from current – with an achievable target price of £100k per car ‘ready to race’, plus engine. (A new S2000 car can cost in excess of £200k)."

 

[Ardius]

The point of NGTC isn't that its cheaper to build, its that its meant to be cheaper to maintain and run the cars because of the shared parts.
Running an old S2000 car is of course going to be cheaper than building a new NGTC car from scratch. That would be the case for any new spec of car - you can't avoid that.
The point is to make running, repairing and maintaining the cars cheaper, not making the initial builds cheaper.

NGTC wasn't so much dropped in STCC more like STCC completely dissolved into TTA. STCC before that was barely existing at all, the series was just not in a state for switching to new regulations and building new cars. I don't really see any point in emphasising it - "even STCC dropped NGTC" - STCC had bigger problems.

That's just not happening with any new regulations, and that worries me. If one set of regulations has a slight dip in popularity one year, it could kill the series. That's why I thought this could be a fatal move by the FIA for creating their own rules instead of choosing NGTC, which is cheaper, already proven popular and has a wide range of cars already running. I'm going to be honest here and say if these new regulations don't provide some serious interest, I can't see WTCC continuing for much longer.

Why should the FIA choose to mandate NGTC for the WTCC? Its struggling to entice manufacturers to the series as is and there are struggling independent teams, I'm not sure WTCC could survive a major regulation change in its current state.
BTCC was in good health 2009/2010, so it was possible to start switching as it turned out some independent teams could fund the engines and then later new builds of cars.
WTCC isn't in this position.

But even so, I don't think its right to be doom and gloom for WTCC? Citroen is on the scene, so are Honda and Lada and RML are still building Chevies.
Oh noes, BMW and SEAT aren't building anything, thats not the death of the series.

While NGTC has been great for the BTCC, it wouldn't necessarily be great for everyone. Again, the WTCC has different issues to contend with, the biggest one being its struggle for image (being the least prestigious of the FIA World championships) and the large cost involved in travelling all over the world for race meetings.
The costs are already a lot higher just to take part, never mind adding the cost of building new cars.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

What would be easier for a new manufacturer in WTCC if they were to run NGTC - buy an off the shelf package or develop and fabricate their own car for new rules that haven't been proven yet?

This is the outline from ToCA on NGTC regulations:

"Teams will have far less of their capital tied up through not having to maintain a large spares inventory – the major component suppliers will maintain a sufficient level of inventory to service the teams.

Car design/development/build costs will be reduced by some 50 per cent from current – with an achievable target price of £100k per car ‘ready to race’, plus engine. (A new S2000 car can cost in excess of £200k)."

Reading the Reg's doesn't give much idea on the true cost of the cars though.

Take for example the RML/IPTech Cruze, that car cost just over £450,000 to build, certainly alot higher than the 100k you quote.

Andy had this car up for sale for 200k, i know the current owner of the car, he didn't pay 200k for it but certainly not 100k as quoted.

The only advantage to NGTC spec is that the companies don't have to build a decent road car to make it a fast race car but on the older spec cars alot of the "production" aspects are still there.

Group A

ST

S2000

NGTC

Still doesn't beat a proper Touring car

The point of NGTC isn't that its cheaper to build, its that its meant to be cheaper to maintain and run the cars because of the shared parts.
Running an old S2000 car is of course going to be cheaper than building a new NGTC car from scratch. That would be the case for any new spec of car - you can't avoid that.
The point is to make running, repairing and maintaining the cars cheaper, not making the initial builds cheaper.

hmm

Car design/development/build costs will be reduced by some 50 per cent from current – with an achievable target price of £100k per car ‘ready to race’, plus engine.

 

[Bo]

The point of NGTC isn't that its cheaper to build, its that its meant to be cheaper to maintain and run the cars because of the shared parts.
Running an old S2000 car is of course going to be cheaper than building a new NGTC car from scratch. That would be the case for any new spec of car - you can't avoid that.
The point is to make running, repairing and maintaining the cars cheaper, not making the initial builds cheaper.

NGTC wasn't so much dropped in STCC more like STCC completely dissolved into TTA. STCC before that was barely existing at all, with only 1 team even running an NGTC engine, the series was just not in a state for switching to new regulations and building new cars.

Do you not think it's a bit weird then that WTCC didn't pick it? It's proven popular, and it's proving to work.

 

[Ardius]

hmm

I should have clarified - not making the initial builds cheaper than continuing to run an S2000 car. If you've got a choice between buying an old S2000 car or building your own brand new NGTC, obviously buying an existing car is cheaper.

Do you not think it's a bit weird then that WTCC didn't pick it? It's proven popular, and it's proving to work.

No, it works for the BTCC as I've said above. The WTCC is not the same series, is not in the same circumstances and has completely different issues to deal with.
As I said, the BTCC the last 5/6 years has been in good health and has a good image, its got a good amount of money in the series and its possible for most teams to build their own brand cars and be somewhat competitive (with help from performance balancing like ballast and turbo boost).

The WTCC is not in spectacular health and is always in a constant battle with costs. It doesn't have the prestige even the BTCC has, doesn't get anywhere like the same kind of media coverage relative to its intended audience and it plain struggles to build its own image as a FIA World Championship.
So no, its not surprising or weird that the FIA are choosing to keep the same kinda regs in an effort to keep costs down.

 

[Bo]

No, it works for the BTCC as I've said above. The WTCC is not the same series, is not in the same circumstances and has completely different issues to deal with.
As I said, the BTCC the last 5/6 years has been in good health and has a good image, its got a good amount of money in the series and its possible for most teams to build their own brand cars and be somewhat competitive (with help from performance balancing like ballast and turbo boost).

The WTCC is not in spectacular health and is always in a constant battle with costs. It doesn't have the prestige even the BTCC has, doesn't get anywhere like the same kind of media coverage relative to its intended audience and it plain struggles to build its own image as a FIA World Championship.
So no, its not surprising or weird that the FIA are choosing to keep the same kinda regs in an effort to keep costs down.

6 years ago BTCC was struggling. NGTC managed to get BTCC back on track, so I just see these new regulations as too much of a risk. With its current state, this could kill WTCC. Manufacturers want something dependable, like S2000 was, and that was an accepted global standard for touring cars because multiple championships used it. Would you rather choose NGTC or a completely untested set of regulations if you were to be entering a works team?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

6 years ago BTCC was struggling. NGTC managed to get BTCC back on track, so I just see these new regulations as too much of a risk. With its current state, this could kill WTCC. Manufacturers want something dependable, like S2000 was, and that was an accepted global standard for touring cars because multiple championships used it. Would you rather choose NGTC or a completely untested set of regulations if you were to be entering a works team?

WTCC are still running to S1600/S2000 spec so not untested and NGTC did not save BTCC.

 

[Ardius]

6 years ago BTCC was struggling. NGTC managed to get BTCC back on track, so I just see these new regulations as too much of a risk. With its current state, this could kill WTCC. Manufacturers want something dependable, like S2000 was, and that was an accepted global standard for touring cars because multiple championships used it. Would you rather choose NGTC or a completely untested set of regulations if you were to be entering a works team?

You see a minimal change to S2000 regulations as risky?
Its the safe option, switching to a completely brand new regulation would be what I'd call risky.

6 years ago the BTCC was really not struggling. Roughly the same number of drivers and teams were competing as there are now, 2 manufacturers were competing and the rest of the field was filled with teams ranging from well-funded independents to small family run teams running old BTC-spec cars.
There was money in the series and they had the great TV contract with ITV. The 6 years since then its just got better and better, its meant that the major change to NGTC has been fairly painless and the series has continued to grow despite the temporary increase in cost to compete.

The WTCC has never ever really been near the same level of participation, coverage or funding. Which is why it can't justify major regulation changes.

As a works team you'd be asking why compete in the WTCC to begin with? Their problem isn't the regulations or the cars, its the image. Sure its a "world championship" but what does it really bring in value? The competitors could hardly be described as the cream of touring car drivers - not that the BTCC is either, but the WTCC is naturally going to always have higher costs of competition and the "world" status would normally suggest a higher level, not a lower or equivalent level to any national series.

 

[Bo]

WTCC are still running to S1600/S2000 spec so not untested and NGTC did not save BTCC.

You see a minimal change to S2000 regulations as risky?
Its the safe option, switching to a completely brand new regulation would be what I'd call risky.

It helped a lot. From 2008/9 to now, it's put several new cars on the grid. And the cars aren't just slightly altered S2000's, they have less weight, more power, a different suspension layout and wildly different dimensions and aero packages. Nothing they have learnt from past seasons will help, so they may as well jump to something has has actually been proven to work instead of yet another set of new regulations. Some will work, like NGTC has, and others may be a complete flop.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

It helped a lot. From 2008/9 to now, it's put several new cars on the grid. And the cars aren't just slightly altered S2000's, they have less weight, more power, a different suspension layout and wildly different dimensions and aero packages. Nothing they have learnt from past seasons will help, so they may as well jump to something has has actually been proven to work instead of yet another set of new regulations. Some will work, like NGTC has, and others may be a complete flop.

They are slightly altered from S1600/S2000 spec they aren't completely different see lada picture above.

 

[Bo]

They are slightly altered from S1600/S2000 spec they aren't completely different see lada picture above.

Erm...

they have less weight, more power, a different suspension layout and wildly different dimensions and aero packages.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So, I've been thinking about what an ideal format for the WTCC might be. Here's what I have so far:

1) Each meeting would have two races of 125km, plus one lap.
2) There would be one qualifying session, with drivers given a maximum of eight flying laps. Their two fastest times would be used to set the two grids.
3) Qualifying points would be awarded based on aggregate times (fastest lap plus second-fastest lap) to reward consistent speed.

The calendar would look like this (in the order that I think of them):
- Brands Hatch GP
- Magny-Cours
- Indianapolis Road Course (IndyCar configuration)
- Red Bull Ring
- Termas de Rio Hondo
- Autopolis (short circuit - turn right at Turn 11)
- Sandown Raceway
- Sao Paulo Indy 300 circuit
- Macau (with shortened race format - if the 2013 race went on any longer, no-one would have finished)

And a few others I haven't thought of.

 

[Bo]

They need longer races. The current format might be fine if they just extend the race distance.

 

[Furinkazen]

They need longer races. The current format might be fine if they just extend the race distance.

Or the old BTCC style of 1 20 minute race, 1 40 minute race.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Won't happen. The race length in BTCC is because of ITV4 coverage so they can avoid add breaks in races, not always successfully.

 

[Furinkazen]

Won't happen. The race length in BTCC is because of ITV4 coverage so they can avoid add breaks in races, not always successfully.

Same with WTCC and Eurosport.

 

[Bo]

Yet Eurosport still cut to ads on around lap 7. Really annoys me.

 

[homeforsummer]

Won't happen. The race length in BTCC is because of ITV4 coverage so they can avoid add breaks in races, not always successfully.

Works most of the time though.

Works brilliantly from a there-at-the-circuit perspective too, since there's always racing on, no big gaps between events, and if you're not interested in a particular support race, that's your opportunity to go for a wander, get food etc.

Current BTCC format works really well I reckon. WTCC would do well to at least partly follow it.

I still maintain WTCC's main problem though is racing cars that aren't fast enough for the circuits they race on. BTCC works so well by really forcing too many cars into the same strip of tarmac - narrow circuits like Oulton and Knockhill, for example. The cars are ideally suited to the tracks, so you get great racing.

Whenever I watch WTCC it's just a few Chevrolets cruising around some open, characterless circuit in the back of beyond with seemingly few people in the spectator stands and only a handful of real battles per race.

 

[Clark]

I only watch WTCC at Macau now. But it used to be brilliant when they went to places like Pau and Brands Hatch. They need more old style circuits.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ford making a WTCC come back..... Interesting

 

[Bo]

Ford making a WTCC come back..... Interesting

Is this with Onyx reforming?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Is this with Onyx reforming?

Watch this space

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Just because Mike Earle ran Focuses under the Arena Motorsport name, that does not mean Onyx will.