Do you believe?

Famine · May 11, 2005

inferno
I like how you say there is an infinite spectrum of life and then proceed to describe a finite spectrum of "basic to super advanced"

It's not a finite spectrum at all, since no definitive demarcation has taken place. "Basic" does not describe a single entity, and nor does "Super-advanced". They are not points on a line.

inferno
Now, My real reply. Yes I belive, but I do not follow any specific religion. none of them are perfect. The bible, as it was way back when the dudes that wrote it were still alive, is best represented by the King james version of the bible. Is it perfect? I dont know, but it's better than some religions where the Bible used is modified in very significant ways. The bible is my religion. What it says, I do.

Ignoring the omissions, alterations and mis-translations of the KJV, which no-one can agree on (is it circle, is it compass? See "Creation" thread), you do EVERYTHING the Bible tells you? That must be an interesting existence.

inferno
But enough about that, perhaps this should be in the creation vs evolution thread, but the thing that makes me belive, is the fact that we live in a world that is set in stone. It's like a framework of rules and theorums with a billion variables, but put in the same numbers and the outcome will be the same every time. I dont doubt evolution, or the big bang, but what intrests me is the underlying framework that governs the action/reaction world we live in. Could such an advanced (for lack of a better phrase) "Physics Model" exist by acident. Most of the universe is nothing. A vaccum of dead space, uneffected by anything. Certain parts of it however contain matter curiously grouped in a form dictated by the megnetic charge they hold. It's why 2 atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen cling to each other when ever they exist together, but by what coincedence is it that that grouping of elements form a substance known as water? Hah, you mean to tell me that these pieces of matter are charged in such a manner that they group together in this exact way, and just by coincedence when they do that, it makes something? That is how the earth below your feet came to be, the fibres in the shirt you are wearing. Even you, or more specificaly all the different organs and tissues that make up you, are the result of matter grouping together in a certain way because of it's magnetic attraction to certain other pieces of matter.

Hoooo, man...

inferno
Ironicaly It's the rediculous level of perfection, of the tinyest pieces of stuf in the galaxy that makes me belive in a higher power.

Been there before. The existence of a painting implies a painter, right?

Joey D · May 11, 2005

Except for energy.

[edit]

Oh, crap, most energy is made of electrons isn't it? Electrical energy anyway. And those weigh about 1/2000th of an atom core, so that technically means it has weight. Crap. Guess you're right, although Famine will undeniably have something to add/correct to this post.

Exactly even light, which very well could be made of small particles would have a minute mass. We consider them massless though since the little buggers are booking.

skicrush · May 11, 2005

Famine
There would merely be a superior being, not the Judeo-Christian "I am the Alpha and the Omega" God of Abraham.

If "God" is OF the universe, God cannot be God, merely a superior being. Christianity says that God is not OF the universe, so it is not inherently contradictory to state that the existence of superior beings is a certainty yet God is an impossibility.

Exactly what?

No, yes and "Look the hell upwards, dude", in that order.

So, who said THIS universe? According to your "infinite" theory, shouldn't there be other infinite universes? And what if God came from one of those, and then created this universe? He'd have been before the beginning, and will be after the end. It could even have ALMOST been an infinite time ago that he did it.

And I don't even want to get into the 95% of the universe that is supposed to be "dark matter" that we can't see!

Famine · May 11, 2005

75% - and since it's part of the Universe, it's part of that "stuff" I mentioned earlier on. If you're claiming God comes from Dark Matter, that's just as flawed.

Nevertheless, you're claiming that God has an origin. It is, if you'll excuse the pun, fundamental to monotheistic religion that their God, whatever the name, IS the origin of everything and has no origin Him/Herself.

The definition of God in Judeo-Christian and Islamic terms is contrary to the Laws of Physics.

And you're talking about the Multiverse.

skicrush · May 11, 2005

I think you're taking some things for granted that are never explicitly stated. Who EVER said there was only one universe? Who EVER said that God was always a god BEFORE he became God?

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

skicrush
I think you're taking some things for granted that are never explicitly stated. Who EVER said there was only one universe? Who EVER said that God was always a god BEFORE he became God?

the bible? right?

James2097 · May 11, 2005

Who created God then? If the concept of some kind of 'God' existing immortally is cool and dandy, then surely its cool and dandy to assume all the matter in the universe exists immortally (but not conciously LOL!) in the same manner. Hence nothing can get 'brought' into existence by God...

What like God was just sitting round, nothing to do for a zillion-bazillion years, then he goes "Oh I might create some crap now! Lets get productive!". The concept of a God existing BEFORE any matter, or the world existed, just doesn't make any logic. To me thinking about this can rule out creationism in my mind.

I find science is the best and most logical way of trying to understand the universe, and how things relate to each other etc etc. I mean I do realise new theories will come along and just prove everyone wrong again, and positions will be modified.

I think it is MOST ARROGANT of human beings, crappy ape-like creatures sitting on a little planet like Earth, to really believe we are 1. special, 2. unique as the only 'intelligent' life, 3. In any position to really know whats goin' on..

Personally, I don't think we'll ever really understand how life, the universe, and everything works but I would guess the answer is 42. (Good night Australia) (Good morning America!)

skicrush · May 11, 2005

Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Never does the bible say "I have always existed." In fact, all those are titles of Jesus Christ, who as Jehovah was the God of the old testament. Who is the Son of God the Father. So, at some point, the Father created the Son. So, that was a beginning for Him (Jehovah or Jesus--same person) who we call"everlasting." You'll notice the bible is pretty darn sparse on ANY kind of description of God the Father.

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

What like God was just sitting round, nothing to do for a zillion-bazillion years, then he goes "Oh I might create some crap now! Lets get productive!". The concept of a God existing BEFORE any matter, or the world existed, just doesn't make any logic. To me thinking about this can rule out creationism in my mind.

Logic isnt faith.

So, at some point, the Father created the Son. So, that was a beginning for Him (Jehovah or Jesus--same person) who we call"everlasting." You'll notice the bible is pretty darn sparse on ANY kind of description of God the Father.

according to the holy bible from what ive read, god is 3 beings, the father the son and the holy spirit. Jesus was the Son of the Father. Therefore, part of God. They are the Trinity that is God. They have always existed, only because the bible claims god doesnt abide by the rules of the demension of time, he is outside of time, and the only one to be able to exist outside of time. So, if there was never a "time" he was never created, he just has always been. It aint logical, so dont try to throw science and logic and crap on top of it cuz that aint gonna work.

God has always been there and will always be there.

Anyway this is all stuff im not totally in agreement with, but im argueing just for the sake of debate.

DemonSeed · May 11, 2005

saying that universe is infinite is like saying that god exists. you cant really see infinity or god. and there is noone who can tell that he knows what's going on in the outer space. yes they can try to figure it out, have theories. but noone can be sure. and no point in saying that universe is governed by laws of physics, 'cos we didn't go few light years from earth to test it. we can BELIEVE that it is so. as well as we can believe in god.

for some it is science, for some it is god. basically, everyone seems to need some explanations, and these are the different service providers. science and religion.
both have parts that are right and don't have to be believed in. and both have parts that are still loads of fantasies, and have to be believed in.

in science, those parts are excluded until explained, noone believed in bacteria or electrons or even in a spherical shape of earth some time ago - you could die for that 'cos it was all untrue - now it is a common knowledge.

in religion, things are included without explanation. god is an explanation for everything.

you could say that religion is a superscience - it has found the equation of the universe, only some people can't accept it.
modern scientists will be as people of the stone age to science in 200 years. quite a few things that do not exist in todays science will exist in next century, no problem.

say, give them some time, maybe at the end of this, science will find and prove and accept god, and then we will be sorted.

and me? i believe in myself. only.

Famine · May 11, 2005

skicrush
Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Never does the bible say "I have always existed." In fact, all those are titles of Jesus Christ, who as Jehovah was the God of the old testament. Who is the Son of God the Father. So, at some point, the Father created the Son. So, that was a beginning for Him (Jehovah or Jesus--same person) who we call"everlasting." You'll notice the bible is pretty darn sparse on ANY kind of description of God the Father.

Can't wait until Swift reads this.

You'll notice that the Bible is pretty darn sparse on any kind of detail at all for anything.

DemonSeed
saying that universe is infinite is like saying that god exists

No it isn't.

DemonSeed
you cant really see infinity or god. and there is noone who can tell that he knows what's going on in the outer space

You can't see Antarctica right now and no-one you can ask can tell you what's going on there right now. Does that mean God exists?

DemonSeed
and no point in saying that universe is governed by laws of physics

Okay. It's nearly May. I don't think anyone is going to beat that. I think the title is safe.

DemonSeed
'cos we didn't go few light years from earth to test it

We don't HAVE to. The information comes to us. See if you can guess in what form...

DemonSeed
we can BELIEVE that it is so. as well as we can believe in god.

Hucking fell. How many MORE times? Science is NOT belief. Proof denies Faith.

DemonSeed
science and religion.
both have parts that are right and don't have to be believed in. and both have parts that are still loads of fantasies, and have to be believed in.

NO. THEY. DON'T. Religion has supposition and belief. Science has hypothesis and proof.

DemonSeed
in science, those parts are excluded until explained, noone believed in bacteria or electrons or even in a spherical shape of earth some time ago - you could die for that 'cos it was all untrue - now it is a common knowledge.

Die by whose hands? Oh yeah! THE CHURCH. The well-known bastion of science.

What do you think went on in the science community in the 19th Century? Did people sit around going "Electrons? Bacteria? Pffft. Don't believe in those!".

DemonSeed
in religion, things are included without explanation. god is an explanation for everything.

See the entire "Religion is Contrived" thread. Also learn what Occam's Razor is.

DemonSeed
you could say that religion is a superscience

Yes, you could. If, all of a sudden, science stopped being dependant on hypothesis, controlled testing and peer-review and instead became "Hey! Let's believe what a bunch of guys 2,000 years ago wrote!".

DemonSeed
modern scientists will be as people of the stone age to science in 200 years

And yet the writers of the Bible are somehow more demanding of respect in issues that were never researched back then than the teraquads of reliable, reproducible researched information by people who have been specifically trained not to see what isn't there?

DemonSeed
science will find and prove and accept god

Which, as I've explained before, is impossible. To prove the Judeo-Christian/Islamic God/Allah is to disprove it.

skicrush · May 11, 2005

And yet the writers of the Bible are somehow more demanding of respect in issues that were never researched back then than the teraquads of reliable, reproducible researched information by people who have been specifically trained not to see what isn't there?

Will someone who has READ the bible please make these assertions? You will find after a little research that this "earth is the center of the universe" arguement (and a lot of the other assumptions you are ALL shooting at) is false. I mean false as in it is not there in the bible anywhere. As in, these are stupid things the catholic church decided to make up in an abscense of any kind of enlightenment during the dark ages instead of taking the more humble, "gee, I don't know" approach.

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

Which, as I've explained before, is impossible. To prove the Judeo-Christian/Islamic God/Allah is to disprove it.

This is correct, hes explained this in previous posts, and i stll dont know why hes here fighting off these what-seem-to-be-extreemly religous people, but he makes the most sense here out of anyone id think.

It almost seems like no one is reading previous posts/threads on these religous discussions and bring back some of the old arguements.

Famine · May 11, 2005

skicrush
Will someone who has READ the bible please make these assertions?

Done.

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

skicrush
Will someone who has READ the bible please make these assertions? You will find after a little research that this "earth is the center of the universe" arguement (and a lot of the other assumptions you are ALL shooting at) is false. I mean false as in it is not there in the bible anywhere. As in, these are stupid things the catholic church decided to make up in an abscense of any kind of enlightenment during the dark ages instead of taking the more humble, "gee, I don't know" approach.

you spelled "gee" wrong lol, sorry but it irritates me when i read it back as "gee" in my head instead of "jee"

Swift · May 11, 2005

Famine
Can't wait until Swift reads this.

Which, as I've explained before, is impossible. To prove the Judeo-Christian/Islamic God/Allah is to disprove it.

Honestly, all I have to do to prove there is a God is to prove that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. That's it. And truthfully, that's the validation for my faith. I'd give scripture for that, but I know that's pointless with most of you.

Famine · May 11, 2005

Do we really have to go over the illogicality of using passages in the Bible to prove passages in the Bible again?

It really IS a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Swift · May 11, 2005

Famine
Do we really have to go over the illogicality of using passages in the Bible to prove passages in the Bible again?

It really IS a self-fulfilling prophecy...

With no contradictions. Amazing huh? Oh well.

Famine, you've got education all over the place. And that's great. But dang, you can't even tell me where ANYTHING came from or started with absolute scientific evidence. So, how is it that my faith is greater then yours?

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

i think we can all agree to saying both religon, and science, are both theorys, comming from the un biased standpoint.

the theory of god, and the theory of all else

skicrush · May 11, 2005

Famine
Done.

OK, so what about refuting the silly assertions that come from catholic tradtition, not the bible? half your gripes are about unfounded assertions.

I think it IS interesting that these so-called self-fulfilling prophecies were NOT self fulfilling when they were written. The predictions of the old testament really WERE written before the happenings of the new testament occurred. It's not like someone sat down and wrote the whole thing all at once.

And, I've never seen gee spelled jee. Should we start a new opinion thread!! Oh, boy!! (did I spell boy right?

)

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

skicrush
OK, so what about refuting the silly assertions that come from catholic tradtition, not the bible? half your gripes are about unfounded assertions.

I think it IS interesting that these so-called self-fulfilling prophecies were NOT self fulfilling when they were written. The predictions of the old testament really WERE written before the happenings of the new testament occurred. It's not like someone sat down and wrote the whole thing all at once.

And, I've never seen gee spelled jee. Should we start a new opinion thread!! Oh, boy!! (did I spell boy right? )

lol, well think about it. Jee is short for jeez, right? which came from the way people say "JESUS" when something crazy happens, no? i dunno maybe im putting too much thought into that 💡

Tacet_Blue · May 11, 2005

Swift
But dang, you can't even tell me where ANYTHING came from or started with absolute scientific evidence. So, how is it that my faith is greater then yours?

Scientific theory is continually tested, as new evidence appears theories are tested to see if they accommodate the evidence or if they have to be revised.
This is the scientific method...even when a theory becomes a Law, it is still scrutinised...have you heard of Non - Newtonian Mechanics.
Religion is based of unqestionable dogma.

No scientist would say any theory is the "absolute" truth, as theories are dynamic.

Einstein was a religious man, he saw the beauty of God in the simplicity of formulas such as E=mc^2. However, in his later years he lost sight of objective science, and tried to find "God's Formula" the unified theory.
His peers at the time mocked this once great man, as he spent years trying to prove his theory.
Einstein refused to accept the concept of chance and randomness (like creationists ), he once famously said "God does not roll dice".

He was left behind in terms of cutting edge science by his young peers, and breakthroughs like the transistor and the whole of semi conductor technology passed him by.
The last paper that he wrote received universal criticism, and not only was it full of holes, it contradicted his own greatest achievement, his paper on Special Relativity.
He realised his mistake and withdrew the paper shortly after it was published, but the damage was already done to his reputation.

His pursuit of the unified theory took the last remaining years away from him and he died still trying to prove it, legend says he wrote notes on his bedsheets.

Ironically the closest theory to his unified theory is string theory, but that involves chaos theory, something he refused to believe in.

Moral: Science must be objective...even a great man like Einstein lost sight of this and tried to pursue his own agenda.

sicbeing...to compare scientific theory, and religious theory is as wrong as teaching creationism in a science class

Swift · May 11, 2005

Tacet_Blue
Scientific theory is continually tested, as new evidence appears theories are tested to see if they accommodate the evidence or if they have to be revised.
This is the scientific method...even when a theory becomes a Law, it is still scrutinised...have you heard of Non - Newtonian Mechanics.
Religion is based of unqestionable dogma.

No scientist would say any theory is the "absolute" truth, as theories are dynamic.

Einstein was a religious man, he saw the beauty of God in the simplicity of formulas such as E=mc^2. However, in his later years he lost sight of objective science, and tried to find "God's Formula" the unified theory.
His peers at the time mocked this once great man, as he spent years trying to prove his theory.
Einstein refused to accept the concept of chance and randomness (like creationists ), he once famously said "God does not roll dice".

You know what that says to me. Even a man as insightful and intelligent as Einstein recognized that we can't be here by accident. Thanks for that info.

Famine · May 11, 2005

Swift
With no contradictions. Amazing huh? Oh well.

Famine, you've got education all over the place. And that's great. But dang, you can't even tell me where ANYTHING came from or started with absolute scientific evidence. So, how is it that my faith is greater then yours?

I have no faith. How can it NOT be?

You can't even tell me where ANYTHING came from or started with absolute scientific evidence either. And this means what?

sicbeing
both religon, and science, are both theorys, comming from the un biased standpoint.

If you can call hainvg a pre-set notion that God is responsible for everything as "unibiased".

I'll just remind everyone of the etymology of a couple of words here.

Science - from Latin "scire": Knowledge.
Religion - from Latin "religio": Taboo, Restrain (or from "Re ligare": Return to bondage).

skicrush
OK, so what about refuting the silly assertions that come from catholic tradtition, not the bible? half your gripes are about unfounded assertions.

I've mentioned Catholic persecution of "non-believers" a grand total of ONCE in this thread. SO you're babbling on about what now?

skicrush
I think it IS interesting that these so-called self-fulfilling prophecies were NOT self fulfilling when they were written. The predictions of the old testament really WERE written before the happenings of the new testament occurred. It's not like someone sat down and wrote the whole thing all at once.

The phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy" was used to denote the persistance of Christians in using the Bible to prove the Bible. Literally - they say that the Bible says it and the Bible is always true.

So what you're talking about with Biblical Prophecy escapes me.

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

Swift
You know what that says to me. Even a man as insightful and intelligent as Einstein recognized that we can't be here by accident. Thanks for that info.

no offense to anyone, but even if youre a real scientist and a brilliant man, if you were brought up as religous and grew up religious, nothing that u learned in science class will ever bring that out of you, it might be different if he was atheist to begin with and after being hugely recognized for his work he decides to be religous and tried to scientifically proove god. And it isnt any surprise to me that he failed and wasted the last of his life doing so.

Tacet_Blue · May 11, 2005

Swift
You know what that says to me. Even a man as insightful and intelligent as Einstein recognized that we can't be here by accident. Thanks for that info.

I should have known you would read it like that.

Point is...science and religion don't mix. Faith is fine, but the annoying thing is when "Christian Scientists" abuse science and try to prove the bibles accuracy using ridiculous misinterpretations of scientific observations...like that young earth thread :lol:

Leave science alone...proof denies faith.

Religion caused a great man like Einstein to waste years on something because of his "beliefs" this is a tragedy, who knows what else he could have done if he had kept being objective.

According to Einstein, your computer shouldn't work as it involves chaos theory. The chance that an electron in a PNP transistor should "appear" in an electron hole, is fundamental to modern silicon chips.

Yes...Einstein was very religious, especially in his later years, he wanted to find peace with God, as he felt quite guilty ( as you can imagine ) about creating the theory that made the atomic bomb possible. It was on his recomendation, in a letter to Eisenhower, that the US created one first...the race was with Germany, but the war ended...so poor Japan got it :ill:

You say that he refused to accept we were here by chance, that's fair enough, but can't you see how it blinded him, and prevented him from being truley scientific anymore...my point again...don't mix science with religion.

Edit: Famine is a scientist ( a MicroBiologist, I think ), I am a Software Engineer with a background in physics, the abuse of science is bound to wind us up a little

You can "believe" what you like, but when pseudoscience is used to try and prove it, you are going too far.

Edit 2: I like to be accurate...so when I said the war ended before the bombs were dropped...I meant the war with Germany. They surrendered in Italy, and Berlin fell to the Red army in May on 1945. The official end to WWII was in September 1945 after the bombs were dropped in August. There...that's cleared that up

Famine · May 11, 2005

I prefer to call myself a Molecular Geneticist these days. It's marginally more accurate and sounds cool.

sicbeing · May 11, 2005

im an aprentice estimator, just thought id dive in to give u an idea of where i come from too :dopey:

DemonSeed · May 12, 2005

You can't see Antarctica right now and no-one you can ask can tell you what's going on there right now. Does that mean God exists?
No it doesnt. Antarctica is on earth, you could go there and check it out. But as for 'boldly going where no man has ever gone before' be my guest - i bet you a fiver you will fail. You can't say what is going on in the universe, you can speculate. But you can't check it. Ah, it is infinite. Great. How can you prove it? If ever? Take a trip, tell me when you're back.

Okay. It's nearly May. I don't think anyone is going to beat that. I think the title is safe.
Whatever you are refering to here with May, i don't get it. Culture. But, quite probably, in some time someone will come up with yet another theory to explain the workings of the universe, and it will be as good and as bad as all of those theories before. And will be called law of physics. Another one. None of them explains everything and never will because they cant. Saying today that universe is governed by laws of physics will prolly be loads of bollocks to future scientists, as they will have new laws of physics and the ones you know now will be outdated. Universe is governed by laws we do not know, we know some rules that can be applied in certain conditions but are not enough to explain everything.

We don't HAVE to. The information comes to us. See if you can guess in what form...
The information is what WE make it. It changed multiple times in our history. We make our information. there are temples, graves and buildings on this planet that have thousands of years and your modern science is still TRYING to explain how did they come to be? What methods were used because even modern technology would be hard pressed to repeat the feat? What knowledge people had back then? Maybe the info they had was different to what we have? So what, the information changed? No. We changed it, we read it differently.

---
Actually, I do not think it is needed to answer anymore. I just posted my opinion in relation to thread subject. You had a go at it like a hungry dog at a sausage. What for? I don't believe in god Famine. You don't have to prove to me that god doesnt exist. You are a highly skilled technocratic minion, fair play to you. I did 4 years of uni, I studied methodology, scientific methods, logic, philosophy, i know what occam's razor is, i understand your points.

Thread author asked 'do you believe?. In case you missed last phrase in my post i'll just cite myself here again:

DemonSeed
and me? i believe in myself. only.

skicrush · May 12, 2005

Famine, I was talking about stuff like "God is not OF the universe," or "God has always existed," or "God is everywhere and nowhere all at once." His power or influence may be everywhere, and He may be able to be wherever He wants whenever He wants, but the bible never says He "came from nothing," or that He is "everywhere and nowhere." Those concepts were created by the catholics during the dark ages. They DECIDED those things--the bible never says that. So many of the examples you guys use say that God can't be such and such--but the BIBLE never said He WAS such and such--it was the catholics. It was to their benefit to portay God as incomprehensible--but how can God be incomprehensible when you're supposed to love Him and be like Him? That makes no sense. But some chruches do teach that. I'm lucky--mine doesn't. And that isn't your fault there is so much confusion out there. But for you who don't even believe in God, to arbitrarily assign characteristics to Him, and say "that characteristic proves there is no God"--that makes absolutely no sense.

Do you believe?

Do you believe in God?

Yes, as part of a structured religion

Yes, as part of my personal belief system

No, I don't believe in any higher being/cause

No, but I do believe in another concept

Undecided

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