The 'Ring, the F1 and the Weary one...

MisterWeary

********************
Staff Emeritus
3,105
GTP_MisterWeary
Okay, I've finished GT4 and these days I spend my time looking for a scorching lap of Nurburgring. My current record is 5'18.430 in the F1 but I want more!!!

I'm currently changing one item at a time and then having a crack at my ghost, usually by the second split time I can work out if the new setting is having any impact. (My best time at split #2 is 0'58.7xx on the PAL version)

I've just spent a day or so looking at the LSD settings and have decided that (10,60,60) suits my driving style well and seems to give me the best results.

I'm now looking at brakes. I have it currently set at (1,24) and it seems to work well but I'm still fiddling with it.

My concern is that I'm going about tuning the car all wrong, I'm guessing at some point I'll end up with conflicting settings, ie, my LSD settings might not work well with my Downforce settings or that my lack of knowledge on car physics will be a detriment to how fast I might be able to go round the 'Ring.

I'm looking for suggestions on how to go about the fine tuning process, if anyone has already done this with the F1 maybe you could give me some pointers? (I'd like to determine my own settings rather than copy someone's)
 
You say you've finished. As in 100%? You've done your time. It's now time to just be one with the wheel. No amount of tuning will provide you with the perfect lap. Drive yourself to the best lap. Use the Force. Or better yet, go outside and remember the sun. 💡
 
MisterWeary
I'm currently changing one item at a time and then having a crack at my ghost, usually by the second split time I can work out if the new setting is having any impact. (My best time at split #2 is 0'58.7xx on the PAL version)

I've just spent a day or so looking at the LSD settings and have decided that (10,60,60) suits my driving style well and seems to give me the best results.

I'm now looking at brakes. I have it currently set at (1,24) and it seems to work well but I'm still fiddling with it.


I'm looking for suggestions on how to go about the fine tuning process, if anyone has already done this with the F1 maybe you could give me some pointers? (I'd like to determine my own settings rather than copy someone's)
It will help if you post your most current settings, we will see how you have deviated from default and better understand your intent. What is your understanding of the brake balance controller? 1/24 is as exterme as it gets, most skilled tuners prefer numbers under 15 for DFP and under 10 for DS2; I myself (DS2) use 3/3 or perhaps 3/5 if I want to encourage brake induced turn in, the general concensus is the brakes are very good near default and the higher numbers progressively encourage lock-up or sliding, but I recommend you take the time to read Scaff's stickied thread on GT4 brakes. Also, although I don't perceive a large interaction or conflict between the effects of downforce and LSD, you might try raising your initial and lowering your accel and decel sides in relation to each other, although the F1 could certainly employ such high values, if not excel with them. For that matter, I usually leave LSD for my fine tuning after establishing steering bias. The F1 seems to display no negative effects with excessive downforce, have you experemented with chassis rake to induce ground effect DF?
It definately seems like you are on the right track, despite DK's contribution (I for one slam houses together (or apart) and welcome the dim glow of this laptop I post with); however, I think the high LSD might interfere with your perception of changes when testing different settings. If you know me you know I applaud your ghost racing, it is the only way to truly know, huh.
 
@ darkkni9ht
Yeah 100% finished, I actually finished GT4 before GT3. I thought the Complex String Time Trial in GT3 was way harder than Mission 34 in GT4. And as for the sun...we'll get reaquainted when my addiction wears off ;-)

@rk
Well my current settings are basically default (apart from applying the tranny trick), I'm just working through them one item at a time looking for improvements.

As for the brake settings, I originally had them at (5,8) but then set them at polar extremes to see what effect it had and consequently beat my lap record by 2 seconds (including a major "off"). No other car responds to using brake settings like that but I find with the LSD settings I gave it, it can brake hard while turning and the rear still won't step out (maybe because TCS is still on 5).

I read the brake post you mentioned and decided to use experimentation because despite trying "conventional" brake settings, nothing seemed to work better than (1,24)?!? I actually tried (24,24) for a while and if you can put up with the sound of screeching rubber it worked okay too :-)

I haven't touched downforce yet and I think it'll be my next adjustment, I'm thinking that this could have a major impact on high speed braking and also top speed down the end straight...we'll see.

As for the LSD, I don't fully understand how it works but I know that with a higher initial torque I found the car difficult to control, it was too sensitive. And the accel and decel settings weren't strong enough when they were lower, sort of felt like brake fade?!? But I might do a few runs with some softer settings.

Thanks for the comments, I'll post any revelations or discoveries I find.
 
MisterWeary
@ darkkni9ht
Yeah 100% finished, I actually finished GT4 before GT3. I thought the Complex String Time Trial in GT3 was way harder than Mission 34 in GT4. And as for the sun...we'll get reaquainted when my addiction wears off ;-)

@rk
Well my current settings are basically default (apart from applying the tranny trick), I'm just working through them one item at a time looking for improvements.

As for the brake settings, I originally had them at (5,8) but then set them at polar extremes to see what effect it had and consequently beat my lap record by 2 seconds (including a major "off"). No other car responds to using brake settings like that but I find with the LSD settings I gave it, it can brake hard while turning and the rear still won't step out (maybe because TCS is still on 5).

I read the brake post you mentioned and decided to use experimentation because despite trying "conventional" brake settings, nothing seemed to work better than (1,24)?!? I actually tried (24,24) for a while and if you can put up with the sound of screeching rubber it worked okay too :-)

I haven't touched downforce yet and I think it'll be my next adjustment, I'm thinking that this could have a major impact on high speed braking and also top speed down the end straight...we'll see.

As for the LSD, I don't fully understand how it works but I know that with a higher initial torque I found the car difficult to control, it was too sensitive. And the accel and decel settings weren't strong enough when they were lower, sort of felt like brake fade?!? But I might do a few runs with some softer settings.

Thanks for the comments, I'll post any revelations or discoveries I find.
Hi misterweary if you chack out the fastest lap at nurbrugring youll see I have submitted a 4.58.249 this lap is absolutely clean. I have completed many sub 4.59 laps and I am aiming for sub 4.58 Im short of time now but will asap send you my settings for the f1 (you will be suprised) but they do work.
 
roadrunnerx
Hi misterweary if you chack out the fastest lap at nurbrugring youll see I have submitted a 4.58.249 this lap is absolutely clean. I have completed many sub 4.59 laps and I am aiming for sub 4.58 Im short of time now but will asap send you my settings for the f1 (you will be suprised) but they do work.
He is implying that you might want to "bone up" if 5'17 is a challenge...
 
MisterWeary
...As for the LSD, I don't fully understand how it works...

Welcome to the club. I think I'm starting to get it a little, though, thanks to these:




Limited Slip Differential Guides:

___________________________________________

From "Spika's Tuning Guide" ( http://www.gameimporterz.com/GT3/GT3Tuning.htm )

Limited Slip Differential Explanation

LSD Initial - Soft to Hard:
Think of this setting as the overall "power" of both the Accel and Decel parts of the unit. It seems to effect the speed at which the Accel and Decel portions engage. When set hard, the car "jumps" out of corners and reacts very quickly, instantly making the adjustments noted above. At a softer setting, it engages smoother (but slower). In fact, when set very low, it's almost like turning the whole system off.

LSD Accel - Soft to Hard:
The softer you set it, the more the tires spin independently of each other as you apply the gas. For example, when turning left and powering out of a corner, the inside tire (the left one in this example) turns slower than the right one (under normal conditions). This is because the right tire has to cover more distance than the left one. If you try to accelerate in this situation the left tire spins as it tries to "catch-up" to the right tire's rotation speed. However if you set the LSD to a harder setting it attempts to keep both tires turning at the same rate. The result is less tire spin which sounds like a good thing (at first thought). However, it's a trade off - you gain more control over the car, but it turns slower (and develops some "push" or understeer) due to the fact that both tires now turn at the same rate. This makes the car want to go in a nice straight line with little tire smoke, but a straight line often leads you into a wall or off the track. I turn the darn thing way down.

LSD Decel - Soft to Hard:
This does the same thing as the accel setting, but it effects the car under braking, of course. As the car slows with this set to hard, both tires slow at the same speed. The advantage is that the car does not spin out, but the direct disadvantage is that now you have to "wait" for both tires to slow down to the correct speed before making the turn. Once again, for my driving style (and the del Sol LM at least) this sucks big time. I want the tires to break loose under braking since this forces the car sideways and then you can cut a sharper angle into the turn. Of course you're on the edge of control and can spin out at any second, but that makes it more fun, I think.
____________________________________________

From "GasMan's Tuning Guide" on Gran Turismo By Numbers ( http://www.granturismobynumbers.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000011.html#lsd )

Limited Slip Differentials:
LSD helps the car when pulling away and during cornering. It does this by making sure that the driven wheels both rotate at the same speed. Without an LSD turn in too fast to a tight bend and you will spin the inside wheel through loss of traction, which ultimately scrubs speed and time when you exit the bend. Alternatively the LSD will help the car to corner as well. However by making the near side wheel turn slower than the offside wheel when cornering you will hook the car round to the right meaning that you can enter the right hand bends at a faster speed than without the LSD. Really it's a compromise on the type of circuit your racing at whether it consists of mostly left or right hand bends.

LSD Initial:
This purely dictates how much the values stiffen or loosen the differentials. A higher setting will maximise the biggest acceleration and deceleration values and a lower setting will have the reverse effect.

LSD Acceleration:
A lower setting will mean the wheels spin more independently of each other and a higher value tightens up both wheels which will increase the grip especially when you pull away. Also, by delivering the same amount of power to each driven when pulling away you will help the car to pull off in a straight line and reduce any torque steer (the effect of the car pulling to the left or right under acceleration depending on which of the driven wheels has more power).

LSD Deceleration:
This is the complete opposite of the Acceleration settings and will help the control and turn in of the car under braking. A higher setting will tighten both wheels up delivering the same amount of power to each. The result of a higher setting will be that the car will now have more turn in force and will decrease the chance of spinning. However set the gearbox differential up too tight and on a rear or front drive car you will cause understeer because the back will want to push the front on mid corner.
____________________________________________

From GT Planet's On-Line Racing OLR Racing School ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31997 ) -

This is for rear wheel drive (RWD) cars only:

"Initial" setting determines how quickly the lock comes in when power is applied to the axles.

"Acceleration" setting determines the balance of axle lock when power is applied. Too high a setting on the rear will induce over steer exiting high-speed corners. Too high on the front will induce understeer exiting the same corners.

"Deceleration" setting will ensure both drive axles resist rotation equally. It is most effective in controlling high torque, rear wheel drive cars when entering a tight corner from high speed.


entering low-speed corners:
---------------------------------------
Problem: Understeer
Solution:
Initial: low
Accel: --
Decel: low

Problem: Oversteer
Solution:
Initial: high
Accel: --
Decel: high

exiting low-speed corners:
---------------------------------------
Problem: Understeer
Solution:
Initial: low
Accel: low
Decel: --

Problem: Oversteer
Solution:
Initial: high
Accel: high
Decel: --

entering med/high-speed corners:
---------------------------------------
Problem: Understeer
Solution:
Initial: low
Accel: --
Decel: slightly low

Problem: Oversteer
Solution:
Initial: high
Accel: --
Decel: slightly high

exiting med/high speed corners:
---------------------------------------
Problem: Understeer
Solution:
Initial: low
Accel: slightly low
Decel: --

Problem: Oversteer
Solution:
Initial: high
Accel: slightly high
Decel: --

____________________________________________
 
I've done a 5.04.211 without any tunings to the F1 cars on a particularly messy lap, except the quick tune in F1 and R5 tires) and now seeing that people are getting these times with tuning the car, I thought they just drove the laps out of the car like I did, except they were better at it then me. I will have to expeirment with these settings.








rock. :cool:
 
Ahhh, here we go again...are we talking real life, or GT4?

Real life:
There are basically two kinds of differentials: positraction and lsd. although racecar drivers may have some awesome panel with three verniers (variable position knobs), I have never had the luxury of even seeing one, much less using it. The everyday cars you and I all drive have lsd differentials, they just are fixed in their gearing at the factory. AWD cars actually have two and that is different from four wheel drive.
Most of the quoted posters are correct in their basic understanding, but they kind of skipped over the description of the actual mechanical operation.
When cars were first made, they had a simple right angle gear,a screw over a worm, or even a chain, between the drive shaft and drive axle. Wagon tire type traction made front wheel drive out of the question (think of drag racing and weight transfer). The system was adequate for the needs of the day, the inside wheel would often just overrun what little traction it had which would allow the operator to negotiate turns, on occasion both wheels would hook up and push the front wheels right out of the turn into the ditch. As if greasy goggles weren't enough; I'm sure all the confirmed horsemen would LOVE this. So, clearly, something had to be done.
I wish I could give credit to the inventor of the planetary gear, even while manipulating a cut away, see through unit in my own hands, its actual functon of movement was a complete mystery, I knew what it did, I could SEE it doing it, but I didn't know how. Anyway, by virtue of torque resistance, the differential, through the planetary gear, always transfers power to the tire with least resistance, which, logically, would be the outside wheel (RWD).So, problem solved, right? Hehe, I know you know better than that. Now I will let you all in on a little trick that is bound to impress about 1000 wives or girlfriends on some stranded rainy night. Ever get all muddy trying to get that one tire back on the road after dropping up to your axle into a mud puddle? Well, when you apply the parking brake to just short of full lock, from the planetaries' point of view, it has the effect of equalizing the torque resistance between the rear wheels. The planetary gear responds by obligingly supplying power to BOTH wheels, which of course includes the tire that HAD more resistance, because it had traction, and 9 times out of 10 you are on your way. Just don't forget to release the E-brake.
Drag racing is the reason for the other arrangement, in function identical to the earliest worm/screw combinations, which for catchy reasons is called "posi-traction."
When dropping the hammer, or whatever you want to call it, on greasy, rubber laden drag strips, the slightest loss of traction in a conventional LSD would send all that torque & HP to one side (think of that spinning tire in the puddle of water), they don't want THAT, not in the slightest. Dragsters don't have to turn anyway, well not really, so positraction is the way to go. That is why your friend in the '69 Chevelle with the 4:11 posi wasn't really trying to spin the tires as he turned off the main and headed up the hill, his inside tire just had nowhere to go (this time think of a column of soldiers. The drill seargent orders them to turn "HIGHT!" The soldiers to the right, on the inside of the turn, all begin to bunch up as those on the outside scramble to stay in line.)
OK, so the function of an adjustable limited slip would be to, in effect, add parking brake to both tires at succeeding strengths to try and prevent any inner wheel spin as a car zips through the twisties, the action would be to make the planetary gear gradually lock in relation to the two drive axles, without any of the resistance of the E(mergency)-brake. We already understand the acceleration side, the deceleration side would work with engine braking, and be rather mute.
GT4
LSD basically exchanges stable turning radius for turn in ability, in a manner that mimics the functions described above, just remember it is an exchange, more is larger radius/less wheelspin, less is tighter turns/more low torque side spin (or lock-up on decel). Many drivers feel it is not necessary on decel, or on FWD cars, I have tested and found it to be otherwise. FWD needs less, but it still needs some.
Since there is no real engine braking in GT4, LSD decel works in conjunction with the brakes to prevent the outside wheel from premature lock, how awesome if available in real life, huh? I suppose if you put your brake disk on the drive shaft it would be.
 
Well here I was thinking that the settings would be something I could learn fairly well without much assistance but I think I am sorely mistaken. Who would have thought just the LSD could bring me such a headache...

Now as for the settings you gave me roadrunner...damn!!!!!

I haven't put a clean lap together yet because I find it incredibly difficult to control but from the sections I have done in pieces, it looks like a clean 5'05 is on the cards.

As I mentioned in my first post my main benchmark was split #2 at which I could get 0'58.7xx. Well with your settings I have hit a 0'56.5xx and I'm sure there's more if I learn to control this "new" beast....might have another crack at it right now.............................
 
The message I am getting is that roadrunners tune is not part of public domain, wtf? So he only kicking it down in PM? It's like you are passing a joint around the backfield in highscool. roadrunner, did it ever occur to you that we could actually IMPROVE upon your settings for you if you just let the crew have a crack at them? I bet you want semi-exclusivity in the hopes PD will sign you as their "Virtual pro Driver".
There are better tunes, but the best tunes are personally suited. Mr. Weary doesn't know it yet, but he may never turn a 5'17 with roadrunner's tune because it was set for roadrunner's driving style.
We could all learn from what he has developed but perhaps he prefers to not have the competition.
 
rk
The message I am getting is that roadrunners tune is not part of public domain, wtf? So he only kicking it down in PM? It's like you are passing a joint around the backfield in highscool. roadrunner, did it ever occur to you that we could actually IMPROVE upon your settings for you if you just let the crew have a crack at them? I bet you want semi-exclusivity in the hopes PD will sign you as their "Virtual pro Driver".
There are better tunes, but the best tunes are personally suited. Mr. Weary doesn't know it yet, but he may never turn a 5'17 with roadrunner's tune because it was set for roadrunner's driving style.
We could all learn from what he has developed but perhaps he prefers to not have the competition.
My appologies if it appeared I was being secretive that was not intended, I used to worry about competition when I raced real cars in the real world but this is just a game, the setting for the F1 car that I used are, Suspension. spring rate front and rear 10, ride height front and rear 65, damper bound 1, damper rebound 1, camber front 2.0, rear 1.0, teo angle front +2, rear +6 Transmission on 15 ,1st gear 7.095,2nd 4.821,3rd 3.549 4th 2.715, 5th 2.170, 6th 1.785, 7th 1.520, Final drive 4.090, No asm tcs set on 3, Downforce front 75, rear 100, LSD 5, 60, 5, weight balance set at -50. The gear ratios in 3 4 5 are important for certain corners on the ring, you may need to tweek the LSD settings to suit your driving style (points at which you begin acceleration out of corners etc but the rest of the setting are pretty much as good as it gets and in fact make the F1 a pretty docile car to drive, the high softer suspension allows you to ride some of the curbs and maintain traction on some of the more bumpy sections, I have completed many sub 4.59 laps with these settings and Im sure some of you younger players with faster reactions than mine will do better........roadrunnerx
 
roadrunnerx
My appologies if it appeared I was being secretive that was not intended, I used to worry about competition when I raced real cars in the real world but this is just a game
Its all good, I'm just the tweak around here, ask anybody, well ask a few so you get a fair response. :P
I cannot believe you do so well with what you run, are you into trying some adjustments? I might be able to help increase traction without throwing off your steering bias...Also, you keep brake balance default? And you shift ballast fully forward, I noted, but you dont show an actual figure, does the -50 affect handling in and of itself?
Finally, do you ever drive Côte d'Azur? I can't seem to bust my friends 1'16 on this track which is part of the Formula circuit, but I would really enjoy knowing what other good drivers pull, my personal best is 1'18 and change.
 
I wasn't sure if roadrunner wanted the settings public, sorry for bringing you heat roadrunner but those settings really crap all over the ones I had in the past. racing against my ghost I fly away from him...however!!!

I STILL can't put a whole lap together, even when I drive a little more "safely" near the end when I have 5 seconds or so the car gets away from me, the corners that kill me are:

1) The quick left leading up to Adenauer Forst: This sets up the next three corners and if done wrong, it's all over red rover, and if done slower seems to cost me too much time.
2) The quick left around Kallenhard: Damn this part is bumpy and if the weight of the car isn't central...lights out!
3) The right hander around Ex Muhle: Again it's so bumpy that the car does what it wants.
4) That friggin Karussell: If you get off the banked part...into the wall she goes
5) From Pflanzgarten to Schwalbenschwanz: This is so incredibly fast that occasionally I'll clip some grass and...boom!!! I'm facing the wrong direction.
6) Schwalbenschwanz: Same problem as Karussell.

Other than those most of the track is okay and I can "safely" gain 5 or so seconds on my old ghost. But in my old settings I found I could do 5'20-5'25 all day but these new settings my best is 5:21 which included two horrific offs but I thought I'd finish the lap anyway to see what I got.

rk, you mentioned gaining more traction with little side effects, what do you suggest? And as for Cote d'Azur, I've got a 1:19.xxx but haven't been trying much yet, once I crack 5'10 on the ring I'll give it a shot.
 
As Kramer would say..."Giddy up!!!!!!!"

I realise in my first post I had mentioned the fact that I was looking to sort out the settings for myself and use this post as a place to get some tips from, well it turns out roadrunners settings are just awesome...

The problems I mentioned above disappeared once I changed TCS to 4, I can suddenly fly around the ring no probs, in my 2nd lap after making that one change, I pulled a 5'18 and it was a disgusting lap, I was off the course all over the place but even so, my perfectly clean ghost using my old settings could barely keep up. For now I have to write some reports but I can do so safe in the knowledge that my lap record is going down, thanks to roadrunner's settings. I must say the gear settings in particular suit the 'ring really well. I'm currently using brake settings of (5,8) once I put a nice clean lap with the current settings I'll play around with those I think.

Thanks a million roadrunner
 
MisterWeary
20-5'25 all day but these new settings my best is 5:21 which included two horrific offs but I thought I'd finish the lap anyway to see what I got.

rk, you mentioned gaining more traction with little side effects, what do you suggest? And as for Cote d'Azur, I've got a 1:19.xxx but haven't been trying much yet, once I crack 5'10 on the ring I'll give it a shot.
(for both of you) It sounds like you are running default ride height, which is fine, if you try to get a lower center of gravity, the landing at Quiddelbächer Heights will skew you into the grass, but if you raise your rear the 10mm that remains it will generate some nice chassis downforce that carries virtually no steering bias in the F1 (other cars can get a little twitchier, but they take 25 to 30mm rake). Also I recommend you try 2.8f/1.7r camber, the turn in will be a little slower, but it will definately carry more speed through the turn. And lastly, for you Mister W, the optimum (strongest and least locking) front brake is default, 3 and a setting of 3/5 or 3/6 should give excellent stopping with some nice brake turn in, or what they call "brake induced oversteer".
 
Well having written a few reports I had a crack at the 'ring and spat out a 5'15. It was nothing extraordinary and I used the brakes in 2 places where I really shouldn't be so I'd guess the 5'10 is on the cards, still don't think I'll be approaching the 5'00 any time soon but it's encouraging to have reached the 5'15.

I'll have a try at the brake settings you suggest rk because a couple of corners (namely the fast left at Kallenhard and the bumpy right at Ex Muhle) I notice my approach is quite shaky with the brakes at (5,8) As for the ride height, I've got it at maximum as roadrunner suggested so the landing after my Quiddelbacher flight is no problem.

I must have done a trillion laps of the 'ring now and it never gets old, I love it. The folk down at Polyphony have produced a top game.
 
MisterWeary
Okay, I've finished GT4 and these days I spend my time looking for a scorching lap of Nurburgring. My current record is 5'18.430 in the F1 but I want more!!!

I'm currently changing one item at a time and then having a crack at my ghost, usually by the second split time I can work out if the new setting is having any impact. (My best time at split #2 is 0'58.7xx on the PAL version)

I've just spent a day or so looking at the LSD settings and have decided that (10,60,60) suits my driving style well and seems to give me the best results.

I'm now looking at brakes. I have it currently set at (1,24) and it seems to work well but I'm still fiddling with it.

My concern is that I'm going about tuning the car all wrong, I'm guessing at some point I'll end up with conflicting settings, ie, my LSD settings might not work well with my Downforce settings or that my lack of knowledge on car physics will be a detriment to how fast I might be able to go round the 'Ring.

I'm looking for suggestions on how to go about the fine tuning process, if anyone has already done this with the F1 maybe you could give me some pointers? (I'd like to determine my own settings rather than copy someone's)

That 5'18.430 is a very good time :) 👍
My quickest time is 5'16.892 :)

I'm not bragging, but i made 3 mistakes(all spinouts). :nervous: :guilty:
 
MisterWeary
I'll have a try at the brake settings you suggest rk because a couple of corners (namely the fast left at Kallenhard and the bumpy right at Ex Muhle) I notice my approach is quite shaky with the brakes at (5,8) As for the ride height, I've got it at maximum as roadrunner suggested so the landing after my Quiddelbacher flight is no problem.
Dood. You went from "I want to develop my own settings" to "well roadrunner didn't use it, so's I'm not gonna." I guess you will have to wait until roadrunner tells you it's ok. In the meantime, not that we expect you to learn anything or anything, but maybe for some light reading ( I was old enough to remember how the scientific community felt about Einstein's special relativity, not in person, but from older textbooks. It took all those dudes on the deck of the Enterprise [E-mc2] to change the worlds opinion, now I'm old enough to know how he felt):

from http://www.mulsannescorner.com/history.htm:

Another innovation that would fundamentally change the way sports prototypes were designed was introduced in 1977 by the Lotus Formula One team.* Peter Wright and the Lotus design team introduced for the 1977 season the Lotus 78 “wing car”.* The Lotus 78’s sidepods were shaped like upside down wings and made use of the well known aerodynamic effect that the lift of a wing increases with decreasing ground proximity (called the ground effect).* This created massive amounts of downforce underneath the car which boosted cornering speeds tremendously.* The best thing was that it was with very little drag penalty.* A standard wing produces more pounds of drag per pound of downforce (therefore a less efficient lift to drag ratio, L/D) in comparison with a contoured underbody (the underbody/underwing is sometimes also called a ground effect tunnel) run in close proximity to the ground.* Not to mention the fact that only a small pressure drop per square inch would yield loads of downforce due to the large area of the underbody that was available.* Utilizing the underbody shape of the race car to produce huge amounts of downforce was revolutionary and this idea has been utilized throughout motor sports, especially in the sports prototype racing series.*

and also at Mulsanne's Corner (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/techarticle1.htm)

Now it makes sense to ask what it is that keeps these cars on the ground at 200 mph. First of all we have the approximately 2000 lb. weight of the car. Second we have ground effect aerodynamics, which are very significant on these cars. "Wait," you say, "they have flat bottoms, they can't possibly be using ground effects to keep them on the ground."* Wrong.* The nose part of the flat bottom is closer to the ground than the tail portion and the resultant angle is referred to as the rake angle, which is typically 2-5 degrees. That small rake angle creates a shallow ground effects tunnel which produces the vast majority of the total downforce generated by the car. As anyone who has seen these cars can attest, the angle that the flat bottom makes with the road is barely perceptible, yet that same small angle makes a huge difference in the downforce generated by the car. Typically if a team is experimenting with a large change in rake angle set-up for a particular track they might crank in a 0.100 inch change in the height of one end of the car or the other. That should indicate how critical the rake angle is.

and finally from our own respected tuners (and yours truly):

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66152
 
rk
Dood. You went from "I want to develop my own settings" to "well roadrunner didn't use it, so's I'm not gonna." I guess you will have to wait until roadrunner tells you it's ok. In the meantime, not that we expect you to learn anything or anything...

You could've just spoken about rake and included the link rather than have a go at me but suit yourself, you've asserted some level of "internet authority". Whatever your motive/reason/agenda, the information you provided was good and I will muck around with the ride height settings but the fact still remains that just by changing from my settings to roadrunners I dropped from a flat out 5'18 to a very easy 5'15. I'll continue to experiment but I'm starting to get the feeling that "there's no point re-inventing the wheel" so I think I'll use roadrunner's settings instead of the default as my platform for experimentation rather than vice versa...if that's alright with you rk???
 
MisterWeary
You could've just spoken about rake and included the link rather than have a go at me but suit yourself, you've asserted some level of "internet authority"
Very true. I am sure you have heard of Stephen Hawking. Imagine that man without ALS. He would probably be president, if not King of Earth. God or fate has a way of balancing things. I love learning and very much enjoy the journey of discovering things. GT4 is excellent because it is so neutral in terms of the world and the designs of men; no one is going to take what we have learned about the properties of light and turn that knowlege into a weapon that enslaves nations (as what happened to the revered Professor Albert), we are safe there.
My blessing and curse is my wit, sharp as occam's razor, it can cut right to the heart. My saving grace is that you often have to cut away the waste or rot to heal and grow; and your cost for my efforts is tolerance. Sadly, I have hurt many, when no harm was intended, but many more have seen past their ego's and benefitted. Know in my apology is carried the envy for how fast you drive.
Now I am going to try to rip a 1'15 and contemplate subtlety until the next innocent seeker posts...
BTW, I like that term "internet authority", does that mean no matter how bad I piss someone off, they can't find my house to kick me bootie?
 
:-) I like you rk...you do have a sharp wit and I appreciate the well thought out advice you've provided. If I knew you better, or was an established member of this forum I'm sure I could laugh off your more cutting remarks, and from here on in I will.

Now as for the 'ring, the two things I'm gonna experiment with first are the brakes as you had suggested earlier, I'll play with a front brake setting of 3 and see what rear setting works for me and I'll also experiment with this rake idea. When you first mentioned it I wasn't sure what you meant but after reading your last post it could give me an extra edge...

...for now, however, I'm supposed to be writing reports...the 'ring will have to wait
 
rk
(for both of you) It sounds like you are running default ride height, which is fine, if you try to get a lower center of gravity, the landing at Quiddelbächer Heights will skew you into the grass, but if you raise your rear the 10mm that remains it will generate some nice chassis downforce that carries virtually no steering bias in the F1 (other cars can get a little twitchier, but they take 25 to 30mm rake). Also I recommend you try 2.8f/1.7r camber, the turn in will be a little slower, but it will definately carry more speed through the turn. And lastly, for you Mister W, the optimum (strongest and least locking) front brake is default, 3 and a setting of 3/5 or 3/6 should give excellent stopping with some nice brake turn in, or what they call "brake induced oversteer".
The ride height given in my settings is at max, Ive tried the camber settings you sugest but found it took the edge off the brakes,but this might suit other driving styles.Have just tried the Cote d Azur on the same settings 1.14.745, but obviously the gearing etc is all wrong, Ill have a bit tweek and see what I can do
 
roadrunnerx
The ride height given in my settings is at max, Ive tried the camber settings you sugest but found it took the edge off the brakes,but this might suit other driving styles.Have just tried the Cote d Azur on the same settings 1.14.745, but obviously the gearing etc is all wrong, Ill have a bit tweek and see what I can do
Thank you for posting that time, it is very helpful. So far as the tune suggestions are concerned, it is true I missed your posted height, however, I have tested extensively, as have others, and learned that the GT4 physics engine strongly rewards ground effect rake and find it hard to believe suspension travel trumps stiction. Furthermore, the Physics Engine does not distinguish the finer nuances of wheel angle, excessively toed or cambered tires do not wear more than those that are squarely placed, a fact I am sure you have learned with your suspension angles. It will allow tire wear for wheelspin because of such angles (highly cambered power tires slide more and burn more) but ultimately you can actually decrease straight line braking distance by adding camber, so long as it is toward optimum and not beyond for a particular suspension set. This is beyond reproach, I can offer a simple test at Deep Forest that will prove the fact to all but the most obstinate. While I am not claiming 2.8/1.7 is the optimum, logically this should change based on other factors, it is my "default" starting value and works well on many cars, it is what I run on my Formula. You did not post your brake settings, so comparison is pure speculation, but I am guessing your brake balance levels are too high.
Overall, I get the impression that as record holder you do not need improvement, that is fine, just don't be surprised if my B-Spec Bob passes you or yours, currently he is turning 5'33's clean on setting 4 (overtake) and I would like to try your well worked gear ratios on him. :mischievous:
 
Okey Dokey...Only had a little bit of time in the last couple of days but tried a brake setting of (3,5) and ride height of (55,65)

The brakes are definitely better, all the tricky corners where I was trail braking without much success I can do so now *fairly* safely and I don't know what sort of effect the ride height has given but it certainly doesn't appear to be detrimental. I only tried 5 laps or so and put a messy 5'16 together so I'm pretty certain I can take a couple more seconds off pretty safely.
 
MisterWeary
Okey Dokey...Only had a little bit of time in the last couple of days but tried a brake setting of (3,5) and ride height of (55,65)

The brakes are definitely better, all the tricky corners where I was trail braking without much success I can do so now *fairly* safely and I don't know what sort of effect the ride height has given but it certainly doesn't appear to be detrimental. I only tried 5 laps or so and put a messy 5'16 together so I'm pretty certain I can take a couple more seconds off pretty safely.
Altering the front ride height will make the car bounce more in certain sections of the ring, ive triad those setting they are about 4 seconds slower than the ones I give (about 25 laps each,) p.s:Time to put the F1 away and buy a pescarolo ive just posted a 4.56.868 at the ring (perfectly clean), with the right settings and the nitro its obviously faster on the ring than the F1
 

Latest Posts

Back