America - The Official Thread
- Thread starter ///M-Spec
- 39,731 comments
- 1,792,294 views
- 2,208
What do you think of this story? Is this how it will end up?
"The direness of the prospect has become its strongest argument for 'staying the course', but for others it is already a given, amounting to 'the greatest strategic disaster in US history', in the words of the retired US general William Odom."
The stakes are incredibly high. If we can't fully stabilize Iraq, we'll face the ultimate irony: We may some day regret removing Saddam from power. We may look back and wish we'd left him there.
This is why we may be stuck there pretty much forever. We probably won't ever completely leave. We'll always have to have a sizable garrison there to keep Iraq from breaking up and descending into chaos. We just can't afford to let that happen.
"The direness of the prospect has become its strongest argument for 'staying the course', but for others it is already a given, amounting to 'the greatest strategic disaster in US history', in the words of the retired US general William Odom."
The stakes are incredibly high. If we can't fully stabilize Iraq, we'll face the ultimate irony: We may some day regret removing Saddam from power. We may look back and wish we'd left him there.
This is why we may be stuck there pretty much forever. We probably won't ever completely leave. We'll always have to have a sizable garrison there to keep Iraq from breaking up and descending into chaos. We just can't afford to let that happen.
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
Zardoz
The Guardian? Don't make me choke.
Regret removing Saddam? No, never.
This is like regretting to remove Hitler from power. We may look back and wish we had left him there to destroy Stalin and the Soviet empire. It doesn't make sense. In my opinion, it is just another excuse for Liberals to banter their ridiculous mindset and ignore the facts.
- 23,800
- Philippines
That's the reason I'm hoping Bush gets his way and gets to keep soldiers in Iraq. It'd be a disaster much larger than the Vietnam pull-out.
Interesting in that article: "But the thing that will really make it and Israel the most dangerous animals in the post-Iraqi Middle East jungle is Iran's apparent quest for nuclear weapons. On the one hand, this commands grassroots popularity among the Arabs. They see it as a self-assertion that no Arab leader would dare offer against colonial-style western bullying and the hypocrisy of the west's acceptance of Israel's nuclear monopoly."
It's hypocrisy, yes, but the West accepts it because Israel won't use nukes against the west... but against the Arabs. Just like no one's commenting on India's nuclear program, because they only want to use their nukes on Pakistan. Still, it's a double standard, and the Arabs recognize it as such... and Iran is just taking advantage of that way too easily.
Interesting in that article: "But the thing that will really make it and Israel the most dangerous animals in the post-Iraqi Middle East jungle is Iran's apparent quest for nuclear weapons. On the one hand, this commands grassroots popularity among the Arabs. They see it as a self-assertion that no Arab leader would dare offer against colonial-style western bullying and the hypocrisy of the west's acceptance of Israel's nuclear monopoly."
It's hypocrisy, yes, but the West accepts it because Israel won't use nukes against the west... but against the Arabs. Just like no one's commenting on India's nuclear program, because they only want to use their nukes on Pakistan. Still, it's a double standard, and the Arabs recognize it as such... and Iran is just taking advantage of that way too easily.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Viper Zero
How many regime changes have you lived through? Like I've said before, unless you've lived outside the security, YES, the security of the United States, you don't understand international politics at all.
Removing Saddam was the right thing, yes. But leaving a power-vacuum behind you as you pull out is NOT. That's what the article is saying... and if you didn't notice, it SUPPORTS the Bush decision to keep troops in Iraq.
Every time America does something to remove a threat, there are unforeseen consequences. As a result of meddling in Latin and South American politics, the US now faces a Latin America that is predominantly Communist. Some of them benign, but others extremely anti-American.
And again, the mujaheddin, Saddam, Osama... all products of American intervention in Middle Eastern politics... mostly in the overzealous drive to remove the Communist Threat.
You can't just knock over one domino and expect the tumble to go your way, you have to stay in it for the long course. Much as it hurts, America should stay in Iraq till the Iraqi insurgency is quenched for good.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Viper Zero
You, too. You have an astonishingly black and white world view.
I'm saying that if this is "liberal propaganda", shouldn't it be proclaiming loud and clear that "Imperialist America" should leave the good people of Iraq alone?
I'm saying that America has a duty to the people of Iraq to not leave until we are assured that their newly formed democracy doesn't crumble into chaos.
I never supported the invasion in the first place. Does that mean I was wishing harm on Coalition soldiers then?
War sucks, doesn't it? And the moment that reality sank in for the American public that their boys weren't going to waltz all over the Iraqi insurgency... that all the military might in the world doesn't quite ensure a clean victory in a modern guerilla war, now they want to pull out?
I thought this was for the good of the Iraqi people. Freedom. Democracy. How long is that going to last with people dying in the streets?
Like I said. Try living outside the walls of America. If I go fifteen miles from my house, out into the mountains, and I could be just anybody... but if I started flashing my US Passport, odds are I'd either be on CNN as another kidnap victim, or just another statistic in the clash between my government and communist insurgents. Muslims and Christians just can't seem to get along, unfortunately, but some of us try.
War isn't simple. It isn't quick. And it isn't pretty. When US Occupation Forces started getting hit left and right by suicide bombers and guerilla squads, I was actually surprised that people weren't expecting it. It was the most logical thing for Saddam's troops to do from a military point of view, since they already knew they couldn't go toe to toe with the US military in the field.
I feel sorry for the boys in Iraq... hell, I have a cousin over there right now. But mission aborted now seems likely to be mission failed. Unless we can be assured that Iraqi security forces can handle the insurgents (preparations and training would take at least another year) we can't leave.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Viper Zero
Hope for me? For what?
You attack me for being against the invasion.
You attack me for supporting a continued American presence in Iraq.
You dismiss any bad news or non-Republican opinions (whether "liberal" or not) regarding the war as liberal propaganda.
Frankly, it gets old.
When you think that any dissenting view or bad news is a personal attack against your ideology, that's just as fundamentalist and close-minded as the Islamic fundamentalists who believe that anything and everything America does is a direct attack against Islam.
All I've ever seen in any of your posts is an instant dismissal of any view that does not agree with your own as idiotic liberalism. It's that kind of close-minded attitude on both sides of the East vs. West thing that just makes things worse.
So tell me this: Are you for the pullout? Because if you are, you're siding with the god-damned liberals.
Are you against the pullot? Then you're wishing death on American soldiers.
Take your damn pick.
_______________
Side note: I'm watching the Iranian President's speech right now. His defense of his nation's drive for Nuclear Weapons is weak, but he scores a zinger when he complains of how the west equipped Saddam with weapons to attack Iran.
He's a hypocrite, though... he says they're against nuclear weapons in principle... hello? How long has Iran been trying to develop them?!?
- 2,208
Scary stuff here:
Many Iraqi soldiers see a civil war on the horizon
"I see Iraq gradually becoming three regions that will one day become independent," said Jafar Mustafir, a close adviser to Iraq's Kurdish interim president, Jalal Talabani, and the deputy head of Peshmerga for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of two major Kurdish parties. "I see us moving toward the end of Iraq."
This is what I was talking about here. The Sunnis and Shiites, and to a lesser extent the Kurds, are engaged in what amounts to a creeping, low-level de facto civil war:
In Iraq, the civil war has already begun
The L.A. Times did a major feature story on this, essentially updating the above story, about three weeks ago, and it made it terribly clear that things are getting worse, not better. Over a thousand Iraqis are being murdered every month. Only the big bombings make the global media. We don't hear about the everyday killings. They aren't going to stop this slaughter, no matter what we do, until they split into separate countries, with the Shiite nation in the south forming a very close bond to their fellow Shiites in Iran.
The Kurds want nothing to do with either of them. They've thoroughly had it with all Arabs. They will eventuallly declare their independence and announce the creation of the sovereign nation of Kurdistan, no matter what the consequences. The Sunnis won't surrender the oilfields around Kirkuk to them, and all-out war will ensue.
Only a massive continuing U.S. troop presence can hold this off. If we leave, the above scenario will quickly ensue. Forget this crap about our pulling out. We're there for good, period.
Many Iraqi soldiers see a civil war on the horizon
"I see Iraq gradually becoming three regions that will one day become independent," said Jafar Mustafir, a close adviser to Iraq's Kurdish interim president, Jalal Talabani, and the deputy head of Peshmerga for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of two major Kurdish parties. "I see us moving toward the end of Iraq."
This is what I was talking about here. The Sunnis and Shiites, and to a lesser extent the Kurds, are engaged in what amounts to a creeping, low-level de facto civil war:
In Iraq, the civil war has already begun
The L.A. Times did a major feature story on this, essentially updating the above story, about three weeks ago, and it made it terribly clear that things are getting worse, not better. Over a thousand Iraqis are being murdered every month. Only the big bombings make the global media. We don't hear about the everyday killings. They aren't going to stop this slaughter, no matter what we do, until they split into separate countries, with the Shiite nation in the south forming a very close bond to their fellow Shiites in Iran.
The Kurds want nothing to do with either of them. They've thoroughly had it with all Arabs. They will eventuallly declare their independence and announce the creation of the sovereign nation of Kurdistan, no matter what the consequences. The Sunnis won't surrender the oilfields around Kirkuk to them, and all-out war will ensue.
Only a massive continuing U.S. troop presence can hold this off. If we leave, the above scenario will quickly ensue. Forget this crap about our pulling out. We're there for good, period.
- 1,151
Here's a wee flame-bomb for ya !
There is an old mottoe; Look after to see who gains by a transaction.
One of Bin Laden's stated aims, calls to jihad & reasons he was expelled from his own country; Anerican Military presensce & Bases In Saudi, the infidel defiling sacred ground. He had HUGE grassroots support from his fellow countrymen on this major issue.
American military forces have packed up & left Saudi Arabia. There are no Airbases present there any longer.
The US Treasury* needs to fund the valuation of the Dollar, not on Gold ( though that is necessary for an initial funding ), but rather on how it is traded in the world markets, trading commodity numero uno for the dollar; OIL. *which is not the US citizenry & you may not argue that any & all things US must be combined into one valuation as that would be US communism.
S.Hussein made strenuous efforts throughout the nineties to get his country's oil reserves traded in the next largest tradeable currency, the euro and had partially succeeded just before his country was invaded by american led forces that have established a constitutionally sanctioned station, air bases, wider & more stable oil trade linkages, yadda yadda.
Draw Your Brain Here ;
There is an old mottoe; Look after to see who gains by a transaction.
One of Bin Laden's stated aims, calls to jihad & reasons he was expelled from his own country; Anerican Military presensce & Bases In Saudi, the infidel defiling sacred ground. He had HUGE grassroots support from his fellow countrymen on this major issue.
American military forces have packed up & left Saudi Arabia. There are no Airbases present there any longer.
The US Treasury* needs to fund the valuation of the Dollar, not on Gold ( though that is necessary for an initial funding ), but rather on how it is traded in the world markets, trading commodity numero uno for the dollar; OIL. *which is not the US citizenry & you may not argue that any & all things US must be combined into one valuation as that would be US communism.
S.Hussein made strenuous efforts throughout the nineties to get his country's oil reserves traded in the next largest tradeable currency, the euro and had partially succeeded just before his country was invaded by american led forces that have established a constitutionally sanctioned station, air bases, wider & more stable oil trade linkages, yadda yadda.
Draw Your Brain Here ;
- 2,208
DeLoreanBrown
This guy agrees with you, DB:
Petrodollar Warfare: Dollars, Euros and the Upcoming Iranian Oil Bourse
That truly unnerving story is from last August, but events since then have done nothing to undermine what he's saying. Man, I hope he's dead wrong about the military plans. I really hope there's no basis to what he's saying about that.
Here's another take on it:
Aljazeera story
- 1,151
As u quote it, danoff, it is a motto or old-wives-tale if u will. I did'nt say it was a logical assertion.
Saddams adventure in international trade has some basis in fact though.
Saddams adventure in international trade has some basis in fact though.
- 2,208
Tough going in a tough town
Has anybody even heard of this place before? Our guys are in a no-win situation there, for sure...
Has anybody even heard of this place before? Our guys are in a no-win situation there, for sure...
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
If it isn't a car bomb near the Green Zone in Baghdad, the media won't show it.
I read Black Five and other Milblogs.
I read Black Five and other Milblogs.
- 2,208
Another "unforeseen consequence":
Professionals Fleeing Iraq As Violence, Threats Persist
By the way, from the "Black Five" blog:
You think you know about living in an exclusive gated community. . . maybe down south in Florida? Well, you dont know stuff. Let me tell you about the worlds MOST exclusive, the worlds ULTMATE Gated Community, the Green Zone. The Gates of the Green Zone are protected by Abrams and Bradley, that is, by M1 Abrams TANKs and M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles. You want protection, how about soldiers, Marines, Navy SeaBees, SEALs, some Air Force, Private SecurityGhurkas are everywhereand also, your own personal weapons to include pistols and long rifles. 2nd amendment rightsheck, youve never seen so many weapons carried by so few in one housing area. Automatics out the kazoo ! You cant make this stuff up, you just cant. (You folks whove been there know what Im talking about !!!!) So, we came up with this tee-shirt, copied but never equaled, to signify your having been there. The UGC tee-shirt, the (un)Official tee of Green Zonians world-wide.
It's a shame those Iraqi doctors and their families can't all live in the Green Zone, huh?
Professionals Fleeing Iraq As Violence, Threats Persist
By the way, from the "Black Five" blog:
You think you know about living in an exclusive gated community. . . maybe down south in Florida? Well, you dont know stuff. Let me tell you about the worlds MOST exclusive, the worlds ULTMATE Gated Community, the Green Zone. The Gates of the Green Zone are protected by Abrams and Bradley, that is, by M1 Abrams TANKs and M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles. You want protection, how about soldiers, Marines, Navy SeaBees, SEALs, some Air Force, Private SecurityGhurkas are everywhereand also, your own personal weapons to include pistols and long rifles. 2nd amendment rightsheck, youve never seen so many weapons carried by so few in one housing area. Automatics out the kazoo ! You cant make this stuff up, you just cant. (You folks whove been there know what Im talking about !!!!) So, we came up with this tee-shirt, copied but never equaled, to signify your having been there. The UGC tee-shirt, the (un)Official tee of Green Zonians world-wide.
It's a shame those Iraqi doctors and their families can't all live in the Green Zone, huh?
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
Yeah, if I was a terrorist in Al Qaeda in Iraq, I would attack the Green Zone too.
Where can I buy one of those t-shirts?
Where can I buy one of those t-shirts?
- 2,208
This report was commissioned by the Pentagon. It amounts to an internal document:
Report: Army could be near breaking point
The Krepinevich assessment is the latest in the debate over whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have worn out the Army, how the strains can be eased and whether the U.S. military is too burdened to defeat other threats.
Report: Army could be near breaking point
The Krepinevich assessment is the latest in the debate over whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have worn out the Army, how the strains can be eased and whether the U.S. military is too burdened to defeat other threats.
- 2,208
- 563
Well heck, why not? He'll be making a large chunk of that back with his shares in United Defense Industries (makers of the Bradley Tanks). He's basically laundering himself millions. War simply makes sense to old Gorgy boy, he gets oil and he gets millions from his investments
And as for the theory that you cant tell whose fault it is simply by finding out who profited from it true. But you can find out who didnt mind it going on either. And if that same person is playing both sides of the fence (person whos profiting and person responsible for stopping said action, it kind of a conflict of interests)
- 23,800
- Philippines
I'd say spend the money. Better to beef up the forces we have there and go on an anti-insurgency offensive than to let this stupid security job whittle down US forces to the ground like in Vietnam.
If you're going to do a job, better not to do it half-a$$ed. The Iraqi invasion isn't finished until the last of Saddam's stalwarts are either six feet under or in custody.
Like I've said: I didn't support the invasion, but if you're going to do it, do it right.
If you're going to do a job, better not to do it half-a$$ed. The Iraqi invasion isn't finished until the last of Saddam's stalwarts are either six feet under or in custody.
Like I've said: I didn't support the invasion, but if you're going to do it, do it right.
