America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

I was just watching Nightline on ABC. They asked if anybody thought there will be no more successful terrorist attack in the U.S. for 4 1/2 years after 9/11. I sure didn't and I must say, I'm pretty impressed with the current administration, at least on the counter terrorism. They showed Hillary Clinton bashing Bush for playing the "Terror Card" or something like that, all I could do was roll my eyes. One of the reasons why the 'bad guys'(N. Korea, Iraq) got out of control was because your husband failed to play the stupid "Terror Card". I can just see her as the next President, bending over in front of China and Iran.

Second thing I wanted to mention was Iraq. I still don't think it was a great move, and I still don't condone it, but when Nightline was talking about the Republican's successful prevention of terrorism in the States, I started to think........... Iraq? While the U.S. and its' allies are busy hunting down Al-Qaeda all over the globe, Bin-Laden recently confirmed this(via tape or something), but the terrorists got their dirty hands full in Iraq. I know Bush said many times about how the U.S. is taking the war to them, instead of terrorists bringin the war to America. I guess I just thought it was Bush's BS until Nightline just mentioned about the 4 1/2 years(yeah, I'm little slow).

I still don't want to give the U.S. a pat on the back for the invasion of Iraq, because well, for all the 'Anti-Iraq' reasons you've heard before. However, I do see the game plan now. I now do understand(or believe the President) why the U.S. decided to invade Iraq. Not nice, but effective.

P.S. Now that I jinxed the Counter Terrorism, you can expect a major terrorist attack. It's just like when the play-by-play dude mentions some player made 20 consecutive free throws and the player misses one as he said it. Hey, 4 1/2 years ain't bad!

Welcome to the light side my friend. That's what I've been saying since day one - take the fight to them and create friends in the region at the same time. Everyone wanted to blame it on oil and greed - but that was the plan. Bush said it up front and nobody thought to take him at his word.

 

[Swift]

Welcome to the light side my friend. That's what I've been saying since day one - take the fight to them and create friends in the region at the same time. Everyone wanted to blame it on oil and greed - but that was the plan. Bush said it up front and nobody thought to take him at his word.

OF course they didn't. He's a republican. So to the media that means all he cares about is helping rich people get richer and keeping poor people poor.

But yes, very good point.

 

[Zardoz]

...take the fight to them and create friends in the region at the same time. Everyone wanted to blame it on oil and greed - but that was the plan. Bush said it up front and nobody thought to take him at his word.

(With "friends" like them, who needs enemies?)

So one TV talk show proves it, huh? Don't think so. There are compelling arguments for something far darker:


Why We Fight

Synopsis:

WHY WE FIGHT, the new film by Eugene Jarecki which won the Grand Jury Prize at the 2005 Sundance Film Festival, is an unflinching look at the anatomy of the American war machine, weaving unforgettable personal stories with commentary by a “who’s who” of military and beltway insiders. Featuring John McCain, William Kristol, Chalmers Johnson, Gore Vidal, Richard Perle and others, WHY WE FIGHT launches a bipartisan inquiry into the workings of the military industrial complex and the rise of the American Empire.

Inspired by Dwight Eisenhower’s legendary farewell speech (in which he coined the phrase “military industrial complex&#8221, filmmaker Jarecki (THE TRIALS OF HENRY KISSINGER) surveys the scorched landscape of a half-century’s military adventures, asking how – and telling why – a nation of, by, and for the people has become the savings-and-loan of a system whose survival depends on a state of constant war.

The film moves beyond the headlines of various American military operations to the deeper questions of why – why does America fight? What are the forces – political, economic, ideological – that drive us to fight against an ever-changing enemy?

“Frank Capra made a series of films during World War II called WHY WE FIGHT that explored America’s reasons for entering the war,” Jarecki notes. “Today, with our troops engaged in Iraq and elsewhere for reasons far less clear, I think it’s crucial to ask the questions: ‘Why are we doing what we are doing? What is it doing to others? And what is it doing to us?’”

Watch the trailer. Eisenhower was a great General, a fine President, and a prophet as well, wasn't he? He warned us about this, and sure enough, here we are.



This old Reagan guy also does not take Bush at his word:

"Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review."

Americans need to understand that many interests are using the "war on terror" to achieve their agendas. The Federalist Society is using the "war on terror" to achieve its agenda of concentrating power in the executive and packing the Supreme Court to this effect. The neocons are using the war to achieve their agenda of Israeli hegemony in the Middle East. Police agencies are using the war to remove constraints on their powers and to make themselves less accountable. Republicans are using the war to achieve one-party rule--theirs. The Bush administration is using the war to avoid accountability and evade constraints on executive powers. Arms industries, or what President Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex," are using the war to fatten profits. Terrorism experts are using the war to gain visibility. Security firms are using it to gain customers. Readers can add to this list at will. The lack of debate gives carte blanche to these agendas.

One certainty prevails. Bush is committing America to a path of violence and coercion, and he is getting away with it.

The whole essay: http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02062006.html

He loses me a bit when he indicates the "Loose Change Conspiracy" theory could be anything other than silliness, but he makes plenty of interesting points.

 

[a6m5]

Welcome to the light side my friend. That's what I've been saying since day one - take the fight to them and create friends in the region at the same time. Everyone wanted to blame it on oil and greed - but that was the plan. Bush said it up front and nobody thought to take him at his word.

I still do think that stuff like "greed", "oil" are partial reason for the invasion/war. However, I now do believe it wasn't all lies. I think the U.S. is playing 'dirty', so to speak. But sometimes, you are going to have to get your hands dirty in wars, especially in a war against "terror".

So one TV talk show proves it, huh? Don't think so. There are compelling arguments for something far darker:

Not exactly:

Second thing I wanted to mention was Iraq. I still don't think it was a great move, and I still don't condone it, but when Nightline was talking about the Republican's successful prevention of terrorism in the States, I started to think........... Iraq?

It's just that now, I do see one valid reason for the U.S. attack of Iraq. I do believe that nations should avoid a war at all cost, and I still do suspect the U.S./Bush of the same agendas you are wary of. But keeping success rate of terrorist attack in the U.S. to zero for 4 1/2 years since 9/11 is just amazing. We were all bracing ourselves for the next attack in 2001, and it still hasn't happened. IMO, Iraq situation effectively kept terrorists main focus away from the States.

 

[Zardoz]

A few people out there are getting just a tiny bit weird about this administration and its relentless attack on the basic civil rights we've all taken for granted. These folks, for instance, are struggling with an extreme, debilitating, white-knuckled, glassy-eyed, rapid-breathing, anxiety-attack-inducing paranoia you rarely get a glimpse of. Take a look at some raw fear:

Police state USA and Big Brother's most cool tool

It goes on forever. Whether or not any of the points made are valid is up to you...

 

[Swift]

A few people out there are getting just a tiny bit weird about this administration and its relentless attack on the basic civil rights we've all taken for granted. These folks, for instance, are struggling with an extreme, debilitating, white-knuckled, glassy-eyed, rapid-breathing, anxiety-attack-inducing paranoia you rarely get a glimpse of. Take a look at some raw fear:

Police state USA and Big Brother's most cool tool

It goes on forever. Whether or not any of the points made are valid is up to you...

Thanks Zardoz, I needed a good laugh this morning.

 

[Diego440]

Reviving this thread and stirring it all up a bit. Thought you'd like to know how good your American tax dollars work. Nice little research article, you can find it all here: 50 Facts about U.S. Nuclear Weapons It's all sourced and cited.

Among other things,
- Cost of the Manhattan Project (through August 1945): $20,000,000,000

- States with the largest number of nuclear weapons (in 1999): New Mexico (2,450), Georgia (2,000), Washington (1,685), Nevada (1,350), and North Dakota (1,140)

- Total known land area occupied by U.S. nuclear weapons bases and facilities: 15,654 square miles Vs. Total land area of the District of Columbia, Massachusetts, and New Jersey: 15,357 square miles

- Total cost of the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion (ANP) program, 1946-1961: $7,000,000,000

- Total number of nuclear-powered aircraft and airplane hangars built: 0 and 1

- Number of high level radioactive waste tanks in Washington, Idaho and South Carolina: 239

An interesting read in all.

 

[Danoff]

Reviving this thread and stirring it all up a bit. Thought you'd like to know how good your American tax dollars work. Nice little research article, you can find it all here: 50 Facts about U.S. Nuclear Weapons It's all sourced and cited.

Among other things,
- Cost of the Manhattan Project (through August 1945): $20,000,000,000

- States with the largest number of nuclear weapons (in 1999): New Mexico (2,450), Georgia (2,000), Washington (1,685), Nevada (1,350), and North Dakota (1,140)

- Total known land area occupied by U.S. nuclear weapons bases and facilities: 15,654 square miles Vs. Total land area of the District of Columbia, Massachusetts, and New Jersey: 15,357 square miles

- Total cost of the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion (ANP) program, 1946-1961: $7,000,000,000

- Total number of nuclear-powered aircraft and airplane hangars built: 0 and 1

- Number of high level radioactive waste tanks in Washington, Idaho and South Carolina: 239

An interesting read in all.

Being able to blow up all opposition: Priceless

 

[Diego440]

Being able to blow up all opposition: Priceless

I didn't expect less from you.

 

[Swift]

I didn't expect less from you.

Yeah, well I'm kinda with Dan on that one.

Though, spending that incredible amount of money, admitedly during the cold war era, is beyond extreme. We probably could've repaved every road or built the "Great wall of Mexico" for less then that.

But thanks for the info Diego

 

[Danoff]

I didn't expect less from you.

Not even a little chuckle?

 

[Diego440]

Not even a little chuckle?

* little chuckle *

 

[FoolKiller]

...or built the "Great wall of Mexico" for less then that.

I think they make an "Easy" button for that.

 

[Swift]

You know what's funny...now that Dubai World has dropped the bid for the ports of USA due to misinformed citizens and fickle congressmen, now there's a big deal withthe security of the ports....

and the Democrats have a plan for security!

I'm actually looking forward to see what they propose so I can laugh it down. I mean, they don't have the guts to enforce the current laws on illegal immagrants, the single biggest threat the this nation. But they will have something that will help in ports and other security concerns.

This should be funny.

 

[Kylehnat]

they don't have the guts to enforce the current laws on illegal immagrants, the single biggest threat the this nation.

The majority of illegal immigrants in this country are Mexican, and pose no threat whatsoever. Oh no! They spit in my Grand Slam breakfast!

 

[Zrow]

they lead their lives beleiving what ever they are told

This is just America? Give me a break. You guys will quote news stories that bash Bush until the cows come home. There's oblivious idiots in every country. You don't think there's a lot of people in, say, England take the totally unbiased BBC as total truth without questioning it? Please.



(quote taken from the "How do people view America" thread)

 

[ledhed]

Immigrants made this country .

 

[McLaren]

I'm not gonna read your whole post now cause i go to go ot school now, and, all Republicans talk the same way.

Now who told you that all these country told him that? OOO Did your friend Bush tell you? or was it the Media? Wee all know the Media loooves Bush :rollseyes: To ask Bush to tell the truth and be a good president, is like telling a baby to get me a Ferrari Enzo.

Bush is just as clueless as an infint. He goes on telling us that Iraq is under control, but BAM! 13 for US Soldiers died by a road side bomb. It's like everytime i turn the TV on, 13 more guys die. Now that kinda looks like we slowly getting bombed are way back to the free land. We might be making slow progression, but were definatly not in control like he says.

Iraq is just trying to scare us, and Bush is falling for it every step of the way.
Don't deny it, we should be in Afganistan/Pakastan and all those more middle eastern countrys, looking or Osama Bin Laden. Hes are real threat hes the one that has ACTUALLY done somthing to us, until Iraq poses a REAL threat to us, we have no reason to being in Iraq. He is just finishing up his daddys job.

END of discussion leave this to the foreigners.

Taking from "Views on America thread."

You dolt, you're doing it again. You're buying to the media.

Go actually check some of the other things in Iraq. There ARE good things. The Media won't report it b/c they find "Bad" news as higher ratings.

BTW, the news is not Pro-Bush. The news is Anti-Bush. Anything Bush on the news and it's 95% of the time against him or a Republican.

What you AREN'T hearing is how many Iraqi terrorists WE are killing. You're only hearing about how many WE've lost to them.

BTW, I'm glad you think a foreigner would know so much more about a country than the actual native.

The problem is too many foreigners are basing their views on America from our POS media such as YOURSELF.

If you can't make a decent argument without bashing Bush, then keep your arguments in your school because I'm not going to sit here and listen to a kid tell me how my country runs, whose to blame, and how Americans think when I am the one who actually lives here.

 

[Swift]

The majority of illegal immigrants in this country are Mexican, and pose no threat whatsoever. Oh no! They spit in my Grand Slam breakfast!

Yeah,

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060327-091535-6668r.htm

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004869.htm

Sure, all those mexicans, illegal mexicans that is, want is to try to take back the southwestern part of the USA. This IS as serious problem that needs to be dealt with.

ledhed, I know immagrants made this country. I'm not against immagrants, I'm against illegal immagrants.

 

[Diego440]

Sure, all those mexicans, illegal mexicans that is, want is to try to take back the southwestern part of the USA. This IS as serious problem that needs to be dealt with.

You forgot the sarcasm quotes.

 

[ledhed]

Making being here illegal a FEDERAL crime thus insuring that the VAST majority of those who are risking their lives to come here to share in the American dream will never be allowed ..if caught ......to be a citizen amongst other things ....IS A FRIGGIN DISGRACE !!!!! Guard the borders and work at making it easier for immigrants to come here . Drop the bigotted nonsense bullcrap no fix law giving tripe. Half of the ancestors of congress were probibly illegal immigrants of some sort or another . We are a country of IMMIGRANTS from all over the world ..We BECOME Americans by living the dream . Some morons want to make it ILLEGAL ? *&%$ them .

 

[Swift]

Wow, so you guys don't view people coming over working for less then minimum wage, using our infrastructur, hospitals, schools and NOT paying taxes is just fine? How does that work?

Diego, I didn't forget a thing. That's what those people are about. Pushing Mexican culture on the southwestern part of the USA. Their government even gives them a publication on how to get into the USA and avoid authorities.

Check this here: http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html

Ledhed, you act like I'm against people coming here. I'm very much not. I'm against people trying to circumvent and abuse the system at the expense of American citizens. Why is that so wrong?

 

[FoolKiller]

Some morons want to make it ILLEGAL ? *&%$ them .

It already is illegal. They just want to make doing it and helping those who do it a felony. It is merely getting stricter with punishment.

How is it that you don't see people using the resources you pay for but never paying a penny into it a problem? Or that some of them will commit a crime and we can't find them because we have no record of their existence?

You act like we should just let people walk in willy nilly. If we do that our country will fall into ruin.

 

[Diego440]

You said they (mexicans) want to "take back the southwestern part of the USA"... that's nonsense. Seriously. Why do you think they try to enter the US in the first place? I'll tell you why, it's because they're not making it in Mexico... not because they want to claim it back. I find it surprising that in being a minority you would be against other minorities.

How did blacks make it after slavery was abolished? Basically they did the jobs that the whites didn't want to do... and this trend continued until the late 1950s... until the Latin American immigration started in the US in full. How have Latin Americans made it? They've done the jobs that neither whites nor blacks want to do...

And in doing so, have built their own communities; and that is one of the reasons why in many parts of Miami, L.A., New York City and other large cities it's hard to get someone who speaks English.

When you start segregating people and hating them for their background, you inevitably get ghettos. Should illegal immigration be stopped? Hell yes. There should be a system which would make it easier for a potential immigrant to enter the U.S. and be able to live comfortable and "live the dream". Instead of having to resort to border-jumping and other means of illegal entering.

 

[FoolKiller]

I find it surprising that in being a minority you would be against other minorities.

...you act like I'm against people coming here. I'm very much not. I'm against people trying to circumvent and abuse the system at the expense of American citizens. Why is that so wrong?

Can someone explain why it is that when people try and approach illegal immigration someone else throws out the race card and starts making accusations of racism or being against immigration in general?

I have no problem with legal immigration and I don't see why we can't loosen that up a bit, but letting people just run across the borders in masses will allow not only people desperate for jobs and a good life in but also violent criminals, terrorists, drug runners, etc and we have no way of knowing who they are because they didn't fill out the proper paperwork.

If we were to grant amnesty to those who are already here I fear that it would send a signal to others trying to get in illegally. It will tell them to keep trying and once you are in you are good to go.

If something is illegal it is illegal, and it should be treated as such. Just letting people who break the law go does nothing good.

 

[Swift]

Can someone explain why it is that when people try and approach illegal immigration someone else throws out the race card and starts making accusations of racism or being against immigration in general?

Thank you!

Anyway, look. Since there is such a large number of Mexicans coming over the boarders, and a lot of them illegal, they're starting to push their culture. Now I have no problem with them keeping and respecting their heritage, but this is America.

If the majority of the people in that region speak spanish and are mexican in heritage, what do you think that means? It means Mexico in America. I'm not talking a small section of a city, but an entire region. The challenge is this is mostly due to Illegal immagrants coming over.

And since the Mexican gov't is more then willing to help illegals get over(because they tend to send back the money they don't have to pay in taxes to people in mexico) we can't even go the diplomatic route.

 

[Diego440]

If we were to grant amnesty to those who are already here I fear that it would send a signal to others trying to get in illegally. It will tell them to keep trying and once you are in you are good to go.

Sadly, that's the way it is. Once you are inside the U.S. there are a million ways to stay; and unless you're doing something highly illegal (other than immigrating), you have a good chance of staying.

If something is illegal it is illegal, and it should be treated as such. Just letting people who break the law go does nothing good.

You can say that out of almost everything. But there are always clauses and backdoors to every law.

Can someone explain why it is that when people try and approach illegal immigration someone else throws out the race card and starts making accusations of racism or being against immigration in general?

I didn't "play a racism card". Swift said the "all those mexicans, illegal mexicans that is, want is to try to take back the southwestern part of the USA." I said it was nonsense.

Since there is such a large number of Mexicans coming over the boarders, and a lot of them illegal, they're starting to push their culture. Now I have no problem with them keeping and respecting their heritage, but this is America.

And of course, they should abide to American culture, right? And what is American culture? Ask the people who live in the reservations. In reality, it's a mixture of different cultures, most of them European.

If the majority of the people in that region speak spanish and are mexican in heritage, what do you think that means? It means Mexico in America.

No it doesn't. Does Detroit, a city with a large black community, mean Africa in America? Does Miami mean Cuba in America?

And since the Mexican gov't is more then willing to help illegals get over(because they tend to send back the money they don't have to pay in taxes to people in mexico) we can't even go the diplomatic route.

Not that I don't believe you... but do you have a source for this info?

Just a last thing... Swift, do you have any Latin American/Mexican friends? There is a point to this question, I promise.

 

[Swift]

Diego, I like you. And I'm trying to be cool here. But you haven't even looked at any of the links that I've posted have you?

As in a previous post, check here for proof about the Mexican diplomats.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html

And yes, Florida is turning into Cuba in America, slowly.

But Chicago won't because that's not african-americans(and I'm NOT an african American) they are Black Americans with African decent. They were robbed of all tyes to there home and were forced to assimilate American culture. There was no choice. This is not the same with the current situation with illegal mexican immagrants.

And yes, Iv'e got Mexican friends. legal mexican firends or friends with Mexican heritage. So?

 

[Diego440]

But you haven't even looked at any of the links that I've posted have you?

No, I haven't read them . I' am reading it right now, though

And yes, Iv'e got Mexican friends. legal mexican firends or friends with Mexican heritage. So?

You were supposed to answer no... now you've ruined my rant.

 

[Swift]

No, I haven't read them . I' am reading it right now, though

It's really important to check out what people reference in threads like this before coming at that with "where's the proof?"

You were supposed to answer no... now you've ruined my rant.

I pretty much figured that.