America - The Official Thread

[FoolKiller]

Sadly, that's the way it is. Once you are inside the U.S. there are a million ways to stay; and unless you're doing something highly illegal (other than immigrating), you have a good chance of staying.

That does not suddenly make it legal. You are right that most people turn their head to illegals, that is until Evil Conservative Industries (read Wal*Mart) hires them. Then we ship them all back, fine the company, and accuse them of being unpatriotic.

You can say that out of almost everything. But there are always clauses and backdoors to every law.

Except that currently some people in Congress have this brilliant idea of amnesty. There is no backdoor or loophole to the issue of illegal immigration. However by granting them amnesty the lawmakers are adding a loophole to their very own law.

My probelm with amnesty, aside from what I mentioned above about inviting new illegals to come in is that along with amnesty is that we will then strengthen the boarders and enforce illegal crossing issues. When there are 11 million illegals in the country currently how do you tell which ones were here before and after amnesty goes into affect? You can't.

I didn't "play a racism card". Swift said the "all those mexicans, illegal mexicans that is, want is to try to take back the southwestern part of the USA." I said it was nonsense.

I was referring to two sentences that really stuck out in my head.

find it surprising that in being a minority you would be against other minorities.

AND

When you start segregating people and hating them for their background, you inevitably get ghettos.

Swift is not saying anything against other minorities nor is he hating them or trying to segregate them. He and I have both tried to say that we have a problem with illegal immigration only, not legal immigration.

I love the legal immigrants. I openly welcome them and many of my family members employ Mexicans on their farms. So many teens want to move out of my hometown that it is hard to find any that will work on a farm to learn the skills. The migrant workforce is keeping my family's farms running.



As for Swift saying they are trying to retake the southwest I think his wording jumbled his point. They aren't wanting to make it part of Mexico, but many times they expect Americans to start living by their culture or they wish for Americans to put the local cultural traditions on hold so they can do their thing.

I used to doubt those kinds of things were actually happening until I realized half the fast food restaraunts near my office have one English speaking person below a management level. It made me think about when I worked a grocery store job where the store got threatened by a lawsuit because the manager said he wanted only English-fluent people on the registers. He recanted and the complaints from customers, the reason he passed that rule in the first place, increased.

In all honesty, I wouldn't expect to go to England and have them recognize my right to celebrate American Independence by firing off fireworks in the streets. I also wouldn't expect to move to France and have them learn English so that I can communicate better.

And before you ask: I have taken classes in Spanish and German. My Spanish sucks and my German is so-so. Either way I can still ask for a bathroom and find a party.

 

[Diego440]

I get your point. I've been to McDonald's in Miami where they didn't speak English. I asked for a bacon burger and it took them 3 tries to get it right... in the end I had to speak Spanish... there was no way around it.

But it's equally crappy when you go to any 7-Eleven and that clerks only speak Arabic. It's called globalisation.

Still, and on a more serious note, I also do believe that if you live in the U.S. you MUST speak English. Fluently if you're going to work somewhere.

 

[Swift]

So Diego...what about the references I cited?

 

[McLaren]

In all honesty, I wouldn't expect to go to England and have them recognize my right to celebrate American Independence by firing off fireworks in the streets. I also wouldn't expect to move to France and have them learn English so that I can communicate better.

And before you ask: I have taken classes in Spanish and German. My Spanish sucks and my German is so-so. Either way I can still ask for a bathroom and find a party.

Unforuately, many religons and races, not just Mexican, that come into America expect to get what they want.

Many Muslims have come here and have changed many jobs and sued because we said God in our pledge or they don't get practice their religon during work hours.

Boo HOO! Work isn't supposed to be about practicing your religon for 15 minutes. It's about doing a d*mn job. You wanna practice it, do it elsewhere.

Ah, it irks me how they blame us for not tolerating them because they don't get their "needs" during certain times of day.

I've said it before too. If you don't like the way America runs, go back home. But don't come here or to ANY OTHER country and expect them to change simple things just for you just because you can't do the things you want.

 

[McLaren]

Then why do millions of peopel around the country think and say the same as me :rollseyes: I don't rely on media, and there are pro-bush stations, and anti-bush stations. And then theres another, Radio, almost completly pro-bush. 1 Name Micheal Savage.

The End. (Wich i have tried to say before but you guys have brought it back up, so it seems that YOUR the one that want's to argue. I will be happy to argue with anyone, but they have to ome to me in person.)

And I suppose that means the way you think means that's America? What kind of bull**** is that.

Don't bring in this "millions" believe the same as me. You don't know jack squat whether or not people believe the same as you. Because you and others say it doesn't make it 100% true. What about the other million?

Wait, are they not worth mentioning because you know they'll contrdict your statement?
Good job Mr. Moore.

BTW, radio is not pro-Bush either. Media in America, or at least Texas is most Against Bush. I would know as I after all do live here and watch it.

 

[ledhed]

This is whats written on the pedestal of the STATUE OF LIBERTY ;

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Thats the spirit of America .

Congress can bite my ass .

 

[ledhed]

It already is illegal. They just want to make doing it and helping those who do it a felony. It is merely getting stricter with punishment.

How is it that you don't see people using the resources you pay for but never paying a penny into it a problem? Or that some of them will commit a crime and we can't find them because we have no record of their existence?

You act like we should just let people walk in willy nilly. If we do that our country will fall into ruin.

You missed the part about policing the borders and making it easier for those who wish to learn to become Americans stay and apply for citenship .
Its the hight of hipocracy to make it a FEDERAL crime to attempt to stay here . by making it a felony those that are caught are FOREVER banned from becoming citizens of this country .

Its against the American ideal and against every thing I think America stands for . We have a great and free country built on the backs and protected by the BLOOD of immigrants from all over the world . Immigrants MADE this country ....with their blood sweat and souls .

 

[Swift]

Ledhed, you're really missing it man. Can you show me where someone said immagrants coming in was a BAD thing?

 

[kennythebomb]

Unforuately, many religons and races, not just Mexican, that come into America expect to get what they want.

Many Muslims have come here and have changed many jobs and sued because we said God in our pledge or they don't get practice their religon during work hours.

Boo HOO! Work isn't supposed to be about practicing your religon for 15 minutes. It's about doing a d*mn job. You wanna practice it, do it elsewhere.

Ah, it irks me how they blame us for not tolerating them because they don't get their "needs" during certain times of day.

I've said it before too. If you don't like the way America runs, go back home. But don't come here or to ANY OTHER country and expect them to change simple things just for you just because you can't do the things you want.

I agree 100%.

It seems every country they go in, they try and turn it into a Muslim one with the ideal goal of Islam as the official and only religion.

 

[Kylehnat]

Ledhed, you're really missing it man. Can you show me where someone said immigrants coming in was a BAD thing?

Ahem...lest we forget...

they don't have the guts to enforce the current laws on illegal immigrants, the single biggest threat the this nation

Am I not understanding this comment correctly?

 

[Swift]

Ahem...lest we forget...

Am I not understanding this comment correctly?

No you're not.

they don't have the guts to enforce the current laws on illegal immigrants, the single biggest threat the this nation

In other words, criminals. I have zero problem as previously stated, with immagrants that respect the laws of the land that they want to be a part of. But to totally bypass it all simply isn't right.

Let me make it really simple. Illegal immigrants = BAD for USA, Legal Immagrants = GOOD for USA.

Get it yet?

 

[Diego440]

Ah, it irks me how they blame us for not tolerating them because they don't get their "needs" during certain times of day.

I've said it before too. If you don't like the way America runs, go back home. But don't come here or to ANY OTHER country and expect them to change simple things just for you just because you can't do the things you want

They would if they could. Trust me, they would if they could.

It seems you're a stranger to concepts like persecution, in the legal, religious, political and/or personal sense.

Also, the U.S. prophesizes (sp?) about having so much freedom of religion, race and creed... but you can't accept the fact that some religions need to have certain conditions. Next thing, you'll be mad because Jews don't work on Yom Kippur.

So Diego...what about the references I cited?

They are good... lengthy as well... But it's written as an opinion piece, and it is indeed fact based, but has little in the way of backup (at least verifiable).

Still, I know that the aid does exist. In fact, Latin American TV channels in the U.S. issue warnings. Called "Boletín de la Migra" or something like that, in which they say where the INS will be working in the next week and implying where they shouldn't be.

But I can tell you it's not really that easy. It's not "I-jumped-the-border-and-now-I'm-free". I was an illegal immigrant in the U.S. at some point... in between the time my student visa expired and I got my work visa... and although I'm not your typical border-jumper, I did experience somewhat that fear of being caught. It would've cost me around $1,600 to go backhome, wait for the visa to clear and then return to the U.S. vs. waiting for 3 weeks for it all to clear up.

And the experience wasn't nice at all. If you get robbed, beaten or whatever, you can't call the police, because then they'll find out you're illegal. You get very paranoid at everyone coming at you and that's probably why the ghettos and mafias are created.

As a closing point, I read somewhere (don't have the source at hand) that although Latin Americans are indeed the largest minority, Asians are catching up. It seems although there are more border patrols in the US-Mexican border, most of the illegal immigrants are coming through the Canadian border... and 80% of them are Asian and Arab.

 

[FoolKiller]

You missed the part about policing the borders and making it easier for those who wish to learn to become Americans stay and apply for citenship .

And you missed where I said:

I have no problem with legal immigration and I don't see why we can't loosen that up a bit...

Its the hight of hipocracy to make it a FEDERAL crime to attempt to stay here . by making it a felony those that are caught are FOREVER banned from becoming citizens of this country.

If they get caught now they are told not to come back, because it is already a crime.

Its against the American ideal and against every thing I think America stands for . We have a great and free country built on the backs and protected by the BLOOD of immigrants from all over the world . Immigrants MADE this country ....with their blood sweat and souls .

Yes, our country was built by immigrants, who's decendents (Us) now pay taxes to support the infrastructure and provide services such as police and military, who are held responsible for crimes they may commit. Illegal immigrants pay no taxes, yet use our services, and are not in any record book to be found if they commit a crime.

Would it be okay for a customer to steal from a store because it is customers that keep it in buisness? No. Could the construction worker that buiilt that store steal? No. His children? No. Another construction worker? No. They are stealing from our economy and our government. They work jobs and the money goes out and very little comes back into the economy through business or government.

Take an estimate of how much money 11 million people are making. Now average 20 percent of that for taxes and that is how much is being stolen from our country on a yearly basis. The immigrants that helped build our country were doing just that, building our country. The illegal immigrants might be keeping something clean but they are taking money from our country and causing damage.

But I can tell you it's not really that easy. It's not "I-jumped-the-border-and-now-I'm-free". I was an illegal immigrant in the U.S. at some point... in between the time my student visa expired and I got my work visa... and although I'm not your typical border-jumper, I did experience somewhat that fear of being caught. It would've cost me around $1,600 to go backhome, wait for the visa to clear and then return to the U.S. vs. waiting for 3 weeks for it all to clear up.

This kind of process needs to be improved. If you were granted the ability to be a student they should be willing to allow you the ability to work or become nationalized. The long process makes this ridiculous and an extension of a student visa should be granted until the paperwork on your work visa is finished.

One would think that in this time of computers this process would move much faster, but I have family in politics and I know they have no computer skills. I have toured a couple public-run computer database facilities and they are still using tape for some databases with a little robot in a seasled off clean room that has to find the proper tape and then plug it in so it can be accessed.

A quick update to a system should have it where if you apply for a work visa after having a student visa any major issues, such as criminal record or whatever are immediately brought up and you are denied on the spot. If you are clean then a quick approval process of no more than a week should be initiated. Any thing that goes beyond your current visa and you should get an extension or temporary visa to fill in the gap.


The problem with our immigration and nationalization process is that it is run by the government.

 

[ledhed]

And you missed where I said:


If they get caught now they are told not to come back, because it is already a crime.

Yes, our country was built by immigrants, who's decendents (Us) now pay taxes to support the infrastructure and provide services such as police and military, who are held responsible for crimes they may commit. Illegal immigrants pay no taxes, yet use our services, and are not in any record book to be found if they commit a crime.

Would it be okay for a customer to steal from a store because it is customers that keep it in buisness? No. Could the construction worker that buiilt that store steal? No. His children? No. Another construction worker? No. They are stealing from our economy and our government. They work jobs and the money goes out and very little comes back into the economy through business or government.

Take an estimate of how much money 11 million people are making. Now average 20 percent of that for taxes and that is how much is being stolen from our country on a yearly basis. The immigrants that helped build our country were doing just that, building our country. The illegal immigrants might be keeping something clean but they are taking money from our country and causing damage.


This kind of process needs to be improved. If you were granted the ability to be a student they should be willing to allow you the ability to work or become nationalized. The long process makes this ridiculous and an extension of a student visa should be granted until the paperwork on your work visa is finished.

One would think that in this time of computers this process would move much faster, but I have family in politics and I know they have no computer skills. I have toured a couple public-run computer database facilities and they are still using tape for some databases with a little robot in a seasled off clean room that has to find the proper tape and then plug it in so it can be accessed.

A quick update to a system should have it where if you apply for a work visa after having a student visa any major issues, such as criminal record or whatever are immediately brought up and you are denied on the spot. If you are clean then a quick approval process of no more than a week should be initiated. Any thing that goes beyond your current visa and you should get an extension or temporary visa to fill in the gap.


The problem with our immigration and nationalization process is that it is run by the government.

They mostly come here to work . If there was no work they would not come. its ILLEGAL to use undocumented / illegal immigrants as workers. WHY IS CONGRESS NOT MAKING IT A FELONY TO HIRE THEM ? We demand and use cheap labor , yet the idiots want to make it a felony for them to try to meet that demand and let the friggin tax paying lawbreakers who USE them go off whistling the star spangled banner .
Its politics to blame the immigrants . Its also a disgrace to call them and then throw them in jail when they show up .

@ Swift ....I am not missing a thing . Its politicaly correct to go after the workers but its NOT a good idea to put the guys who hire them in jail .
Ask yourself what would happen if you threw all the people who use illegals for labor in jail as felons ....No more demand for labor = very few illegals.
Problem friggin solved...until the next election when the guys who threw the real criminals in jail get voted out and it returns to business as usual .

Think about it .

 

[Diego440]

A quick update to a system should have it where if you apply for a work visa after having a student visa any major issues, such as criminal record or whatever are immediately brought up and you are denied on the spot. If you are clean then a quick approval process of no more than a week should be initiated. Any thing that goes beyond your current visa and you should get an extension or temporary visa to fill in the gap.


The problem with our immigration and nationalization process is that it is run by the government.

How's this for absurd. My mom is American; not by birth, but because my grandfather was born in the U.S. (out of the Greek immigrants that entered Staten Island). So my mom is 100% American citizen. From the time I was born, I could've been included in the American citizenship program but for some reason or other, we never did. When I was 22 (in 1998), we decided to go ahead with the process. Since I was over 18, I couldn't apply to the citizenship, but I could apply for residency, which I did.

Between 1998 and 2001, the process was stalled because there was a huge demand. After 2001 (mainly 9/11) everything got triple stalled. Now, because my mom is a U.S. citizen, according to U.S. law, I can apply for residency and it should be approved in no more than 24 months. The approval as such came in mid-2002, but they had to send my documents and approval to Venezuela, where I was residing; btu not because I was residing there, but because they assumed since I'm Venezuelan, I should be there (I still had my work visa for the US, so I could've been there). I left Venezuela in 1Q 2003, and the documents hadn't arrived yet.

How's that for bureaucracy? To this day I'm still not a U.S. resident, even though I was approved to be one in 2002, having applied in 1998.

 

[Swift]

@ Swift ....I am not missing a thing . Its politicaly correct to go after the workers but its NOT a good idea to put the guys who hire them in jail .
Ask yourself what would happen if you threw all the people who use illegals for labor in jail as felons ....No more demand for labor = very few illegals.
Problem friggin solved...until the next election when the guys who threw the real criminals in jail get voted out and it returns to business as usual .

Think about it .

Why is it not a good idea. Because as long as there is incentive to come over they will keep coming. I'm not really following you with the election thing. It returns to business as usual because certain representatives get voted out?

Diego - That situation you described isn't even close to what I'm talking about. It's also VERY stupid that you had to go through that. It should be like renewing your tags for your car online. You get a temporary pass until the real thing comes through.

Yes, I think the immagration policies of this country need to be streamlined, but that doesn't mean we should just except people that are already here illegally.

 

[FoolKiller]

They mostly come here to work . If there was no work they would not come. its ILLEGAL to use undocumented / illegal immigrants as workers. WHY IS CONGRESS NOT MAKING IT A FELONY TO HIRE THEM ?

I thought that was part of the debate. It is a felony to come in illegally and a felony to aid them.

We demand and use cheap labor , yet the idiots want to make it a felony for them to try to meet that demand and let the friggin tax paying lawbreakers who USE them go off whistling the star spangled banner .

When have they ever let peopel who knowingly hire illegal immigrants off? If I recall Wal*Mart got in a lot of trouble over this.

Its politics to blame the immigrants .

How so? A man jumps a fence, knowing he shouldn't and that it is illegal and it isn't his fault? Thsi makes no sense to me. Please explain.

Its also a disgrace to call them and then throw them in jail when they show up .

I don't even know what you are talking about here. Sounds like entrapment at the worst.

@ Swift ....I am not missing a thing . Its politicaly correct to go after the workers but its NOT a good idea to put the guys who hire them in jail .
Ask yourself what would happen if you threw all the people who use illegals for labor in jail as felons ....No more demand for labor = very few illegals.
Problem friggin solved...until the next election when the guys who threw the real criminals in jail get voted out and it returns to business as usual .

Think about it .

Like Swift, I am confused here.


Diego, that sucks man. As I said before, government.

 

[McLaren]

They would if they could. Trust me, they would if they could.

It seems you're a stranger to concepts like persecution, in the legal, religious, political and/or personal sense). .

That still does NOT make it right for them to come here, and change everything to suit their needs.

I, for one, am not going to be told I can't say God in my pledge, but allow them to have a 15 minute prayer session.

That's total bull****, my friend.

 

[a6m5]

I think the borders needs to be protected better. It's just unbelievable how much crimes comes in from the U.S./Mexico border.

Like Swift, I don't like the illegal immigrants. I am all for a new system that lets the Mexican nationals(etc.) come into the States with working visas, and take their earning back to their home. There are so many low paying jobs in this country, that most Americans consider themselves "too good for". Current system(or lack of it) allows too many criminals to come into the U.S. Again, like Swift said, by crossing the border illegally, they are already committing a crime right there.

P.S. I think the U.S. should either officially name English as the official language, or start teaching both Spanish and English in schools. Personally, I don't like how, many of the hispanic immigrants shoves Spanish down our throats, but if that's how it's gonna be, fine with me. I just think that we should all have to either:

1)Learn English 2)Learn Spanish and English

I think it's pretty sloppy right now.

 

[McLaren]

How do my fellow Americans feel about the suggestions to shut down the border to Mexico right now and deal with the Mexicans here now?

 

[a6m5]

How do my fellow Americans feel about the suggestions to shut down the border to Mexico right now and deal with the Mexicans here now?

I'm not an American, but what do you mean by "deal", exactly?

 

[McLaren]

I'm not an American, but what do you mean by "deal", exactly?

Well, anyone then.

Some officials are suggesting investigations of the current ones here and get the ones here under control before letting more in.

 

[a6m5]

Well, anyone then.

Well, thanks.

Some officials are suggesting investigations of the current ones here and get the ones here under control before letting more in.

By "under control", I take it that many of them will be deported? Without some details, it's hard to say. Heres how I would do it:

1)Start protecting the border. Make it next to impossible for the illegals to come in.

2)Illegals with criminal records will be given a chance to go back to where ever they came from. I'd give them couple of months. If they are caught in the U.S. after the time given, they will be executed. It sounds harsh, but that means they will all leave U.S. and not take any chances staying here.

3)Basically, work out who gets to stay, become citizens, gotta go back, all that good stuff.

Again, I'm all for letting Mexican nationals(etc.) come into the States to work, as long as it gets done by the book.

 

[Swift]

How do my fellow Americans feel about the suggestions to shut down the border to Mexico right now and deal with the Mexicans here now?

Logical, but currently unfeasable with the state of our security forces. I actually think that makes good sense, the only problem is, we need a way to keep the illegals out now.

 

[s0nny80y]

New Fox News poll: Bush's presidential rating hit's all-time low. READ, 33%. Wow.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/FOX224_release_web.pdf

 

[Danoff]

New Fox News poll: Bush's presidential rating hit's all-time low. READ, 33%. Wow.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/FOX224_release_web.pdf

I believe it was Stephen Colbert that pointed out that hitler had a 90+% approval rating.

 

[Swift]

I believe it was Stephen Colbert that pointed out that hitler had a 90+% approval rating.

Scary thought. It just shows what you can do to the populous when you promise them the world.

 

[Joey D]

New Fox News poll: Bush's presidential rating hit's all-time low. READ, 33%. Wow.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/FOX224_release_web.pdf

I still want to know who the hell they ask for these polls.

 

[FoolKiller]

I still want to know who the hell they ask for these polls.

The people that do the polls say they have an automated system that randomly calls numbers. You have to remember that they usually only poll a few hundred and so if you consider that is out of 270 million or so then you have a good chance of going your entire life without even knowing someone who was polled.

You are more likely to meet a Nielsen family. We did it once.

 

[ledhed]

The only poll that matters is the one that put him in office ..these other polls are so easily manipulated and unscientific that its pretty much a waste of time even reading them . I guess it gives the talking heads something to do . At any rate who would want a President who only did things according to polls ? that would be like France .