Cheers for successful gtplanet recovery to Jordan
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Scaff, I just realise how funny our situation is:
I, who do not have proper car education background, try to convince that the car will bounce back more on softer damper to a car expert like you.
You, who do not have proper IT education background, try to convince that all weird suspension behaviour is because GT4 roll/flip limiter to a game hacker like me.
Ok, assume that I have wrong knowledge about real life damper. That doesn't automatically make your opinion about roll limiter can cause unpredictable behaviour correct. The car can not flip in GT4 is not proof. If the effect is linier to damper value, we have to associates .
You depend on flip limiter code as a reasonable explanation (which is not) too much. If this proven to be wrong, do you have any other explanation?
@Team666, you should read carefully the quote that Scaff post. It explain how the damper works. Hard damper not equal to hard spring. Stronger damper will stop spring better, stronger spring can overcome damper stopping power better.
Team666
What of the nodding? It´s an aerodynamic occurance, and has very little to do with dampers. You can slow it´s effect with overdamping 10/1 10/1, wich makes the front of the car "stand" on the dampers. Normally that is the springs job, but they are set as low as possible in 300 mph runs, and therefore, the dampers can be used as support to the cars front.
I know, but I am not talking about how it happen, I am talking about how damper change it. And it seems we agree lower damper number slowing it down. slower = stiffer.
Team666
A hard setting will transfer the impact through the suspension and in to the chassis, and in turn up your a$$, whilst a softer damping will absorb the impact better, but may rejump. Too soft, and a car will simply travel "through" the suspension, and thus bottoming out, sending the same pain through the seat as a too hard suspension will.
Yes, what I am saying is the more you feel pain in your body, the less the car will bounce. harder damper = less bounce.
What you say:
"A soft damping may cause a rejump, but the car itself, and its passangers, will most likely endure that better than the very hard impact a sudden stop would produce."
I agree. And the car shouldn't bouncing after a sudden stop.
"If the car is very stiff (metalbar) it will NOT follow the contour of the surface, but jump, flip and tilt over any irregularities (the Integra is a good example here). This is a hard setting, and it also shows that 10=hard!"
I don't agree. Based on Brian Beckman's quoted by Scaff. It will follow the road countour based on gravity and velocity rule, no jumping activity happen.
Team666
If you only had the spring, you would not be able to get the right momentum for jumping over a period of time. It has to be damped, in order to get the right momentum from the spring.
Momentum comes from car weight +/- tire. Its car weight vs spring power.
Team666
You should bounce back a bit. Find some crashtesting movies, and watch them. But the lesser the bounce, the safer the car, since it absorbs more of the impact energy if it crumbels, than if it would be unharmed, as in GT4.
Yes.
Team666
But this is poorly simulated, since you somehow get stuck to the surface you crash against, and there might even be a 180' flatspin in some cases. Really wierd, and again shows the flawed visual physics of GT4.
it's not visual physics that flawed, it's the internal physics which reflected to visual.
Scaff
You can try and explain using a car being dropped all you like, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about at all.
What are you talking about? I lost track.
Scaff
Additionally the sheer naivety of using films as an example!!!! You do know that the vast majority of cars using in movies of this nature are destroyed in the process? Obviously not or you would not use sure a ridiculous example.
Ok, lets forget about the film. Although I still want to talk about police chase or JC video.
Scaff
In the rally world a jump of 1 metre is far from high (so you know little about rallying either), but a rally car is very different to a road car, they are specifically designed to withstand forces of this nature, and even then they still get damaged in the process.
Oh? I thought 1 meter is too high after hearing this: "dropping a road car from any significant height would actually snap the suspension mounting points, as the force was transferred through the suspension (almost certainly unable to cope ? road cars are not designed to be dropped). Which again proves the point I am making."
I though 1 meter is significant. How fast the car dropping speed is after 1 meter drop? 5mph?
Scaff
Passenger road cars are not designed to withstand forces of this nature and would almost certain suffer damage of some kind in this scenario (but then again what would I know – after all this is only the industry I work in).
Are we talking about 1 meter drop here? 1 meter drop can make suspension unable to react fast enough?
Scaff
When a car hits a very solid object (such as a concrete barrier used in many crash tests) it will bounce back to a degree, I have personally seen this happen. Have you ever witnessed a crash test? If not with what authority do you speak with on this matter?
Ok, if we relate this to car bounce, the car will bounce back in about 1cm if the suspension is not reacting fast enough.
If we relate this to bounce from bump, the car will bounce up in about 1cm if the suspension is not reacting fast enough.
If we relate this to car drop from 1 meter height, the car will bounce up in about 1cm if the suspension is not reacting fast enough.
But as I believe suspension will never too late to react, if car drop from 1 meter height, spring is the MAIN reason the car can bounce back, not car body. Damper will reduce/prevent the bouncing.
Scaff
Also why are you again talking about a car being dropped again, this has nothing to do with this subject
What is the subject? I thought we are talking about how caterham bouncing few times more on d-high than on d-low. Don't tell me that this is already answered when you say GT4 flip limiter do bouncy behaviour?
Scaff
Then you need to read it much more carefully, a simplistic car-as-rigid-body would just launch ballistically from the top of the bump.
This quite clearly says that if a car is too stiff to be able to drive over a bump then it will be launched off the bump.
It does not say it launch OVER the top of the bump, it launch FROM the top of the bump. No bouncy activity involved. A rock can fly if you throw it, it's that what you want to say? Ok, brick can jump then.
Scaff
Again you are talking about dropping a car from a height, neither the link I posted or the article I linked to discuss dropping a car from a height, only you do and it has not relevance to this at all.
damper reaction.
Scaff
And yes this article does confirm that suspension can smooth out sudden impulses, but it also explains that the bigger the bump and/or the faster you encounter it, then the more force it will put on the suspension system.
You seem to have either been very selective about which parts of the article you have read or you have not fully understood it.
You do that too. The article is about simulating car reaction to bump can be done easier if we ignore the suspension.
Scaff
If the suspension system is too stiff then it will be unable to react quickly enough to the force it encounters. The excess of force has to go somewhere, and it is transferred to the cars body (this is not conjecture) and the result can be that the cars body is forced up, this is not a result of your strange ‘re-jump’ term, rather something that occurs during the bound phase when the suspension is too stiff to respond quickly enough to the force placed upon it.
Oh, I see, bound phase. What about rebound phase? The car PULL the suspension to go up or suspension PUSH the car to go up? IMO, suspension push.
Scaff
You can chose to dismiss or ignore this, that I can’t stop, but if you do you are ignoring and dismissing a basic fact of suspension reaction.
It is half done. you don't explain what will happen next.
Scaff
Your explanations of this are very incomplete and vague at times (also very inconsistent), what is clear (and beyond dispute) is that GT4 will not allow a car to flip or roll. The steps GT4 takes to stop this (however you describe them) results in a very unrealistic reaction. Which I and others believe is causing you a great deal of confusion.
Ah, thank goodnes that you mention it. Beyond dispute? Do you have some kind of knowledge or education to support this? what make you say that? It's clear to you but it is not to me. Car can't flip or roll is not an explanation or proof that it can make a very unrealistic reaction. That assumption from my profesional view is rubish. If I should create a similar game like GT4 I don't think I'll be able to create an algorithm that can make roll/flip limiter influence suspension behaviour (a behaviour which should only exist when flip limiter code turned on). It would make a simple few lines of flip limiter code turn into monsterly big and complex code.
My algorithm for GT4 roll/flip limiter code would look like this (the flip limiter code is in bold):
Code:
if pitch is bellow threshold then begin
next pitch value = .... (calculation)
end
Else [b] Begin
next pitch value = current pitch value
End[/b]
If you can think an algorithm for flip limiter code that can influence suspension, please post it.
Do you really think that if the flip limiter code is removed, the car behaviour will become realistic? weird. For reminder, this is a 4th iteration of GT series, if they know flip limiter code can make the car behaviour unrealistic in atleast GT2, why they keep using it in GT4 and still praising it to be more realistic?
Your whole argumentation that hacked value is not relevant, judging from view only is not relevant is based on your wrong assumption that flip limiter code do something weird to that. Do you have any proof or explanation other than the usual GT4 will not allow a car to flip or roll? Just that explanation and I have to believe that it is ok to accept weird result?
My hacked value video show linier relation between damper value and car bouncing. more damper = more bouncing. Can you proof that the value of damper is not related to those unrealistic behaviour? If you can proof that damper value has nothing to do with unrealistic reaction, you can carry on use it. If you don't, you just use it as a scape goat.
"The steps GT4 takes to stop this results in a very unrealistic reaction",
can I say it like this?:
The steps GT4 takes to stop this results in a backward reaction
If you think flip limiter code make the damper tuning backward, why don't you do it backward?
IMO, it doesn't matter wether flip limiter code exist or not, it will stay backward like that. High damper value will always show faster tire movement, higher rebounce, etc.
Scaff
Now I think that it?s quite clear to say that this does not happen in the real world, the car may exceed an angle that would cause it to roll or flip, GT4 stops this happening. As such the reaction of a car in this situation can not be directly compared to the real world. The effect as I (and it appear most other people) see it is that it causes the car to bounce or jump from one side/corner to the other. This is GT4 coping with a situation from an over-stiff car that ?should? (in the real world) have flipped or rolled, but in GT4 is not allowed to.
...
As I have explained above and many, many times before this has nothing at all to do with car roll, rather GT4s attempt to stop a car flipping or rolling.
Why GT4s attempt to stop a car flipping or rolling has something to do with the car bounce or jump from one side/corner to the other?
The way I see it, if my car flip to the right it does not bounce back to the left. When we do wheelie the nose do not bouncing down after hitting pitch limit. Do car nodding happen when we wheelie?
Scaff
In regard to the Integra test
I intend to test it with different spring rate and different speed. For now, like that.
Scaff
Yes it does!!!! The Skip Barker quotes (that I provided and you disputed) clearly states that a stiffer car will struggle to cope with a bumpy track and is more likely to result in a car losing contact with the track surface.
Wrong section there. I am not talking about car meeting bump, I am talking about rebouncing (it seems re jump is incorrect word).
So when I am talking about you:"You should realize that your explanation about stiffer damper make the car jump more do not match the skip barber quote"
this is what I refer to:"A stiffer bump setting slows down the motion on its corner ans speeds up the load transfer. A softer bump setting does the opposite - it allows the suspension to move faster and spreads the changes in loading out over a longer period of time. The same is true of rebound. Stiff re-bound settings will force the suspension system to move more slowly when loads are removed from its corner of the car, but the unloading of the contact patch will be more abrupt. Softer rebound settings allow the suspension to move more quickly and the unloading of the contact patch happens more gradually"
How can the car bounce (rebounce?) more when using stiffer damper if the damper slows down the suspension motion?
Scaff
So you were making another wild and bizarre assumption, this time that I was looking at GT4 with a 14” set. I have no idea why anyone would chose to make such a strange and bizarre assumption?
It's weird that you don't notice tire vibration. Why you don't notice it?
Scaff
I honestly think that the only person who has potentially been fooled by this is you.
Maybe.
Scaff
It’s not a mistype at all, and this comment I find quite frankly insulting.
It really does not make any sense for me. I will learn to reduce inconsistency.
Speed Drifter
I'm trying to explain it better this time:
When a tire hits a bump, pretty small one this time, it will go up with the bump starting to transfer the kinetic force upward. If your dampers are soft, they will allow your springs compress fast enough and absorb the force so all of it is not transferred to the car's body. If your dampers are hard, this time the springs won't be able to compress because dampers are preventing it. That means the force continues to move upwards to the car body where all that sheet and body metal absorb most of it. Remember that those forces occurring are all oscillations, not direct upward/downward forces.
How long the tire exposed to the bump also important too. Stiffer damper will prevent spring compress or extend from osscilating.
Scaff
Not a problem at all, although I think Sucahyo may not be so happy, I think he was under the impression that he had someone who shared his (in my opinion incorrect) opinion.
Actually, I wait until he do another post.
Scaff
even then this is not example the same as you example as the car also has forward velocity. Suspension reactions occur constantly when a car is moving and react to throttle, brake and steering inputs all the time; so why ignore these and insist on an uncommon event that is of far less importance to track driving.
So, from your point of view dropping the car from 1 meter height will make the suspension not reacting quick enough, and the car launching to 1 meter height can make the suspension reacting quick enough?
From my view, on both cases the suspension will be reacting quick enough.
Scaff
For you’re reading pleasure I have extracted a number of good descriptions of real world damper activity, some are basic and some more in-depth. I hope they help.
Thanks Scaff
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Scaff
Low speed damping (when the force is applied slowly) occurs constantly when the car is moving and passes over tiny changes in the road surface....
Not agree about this. You associates speed with amplitude, where it should be with frequency. Sure amplitude matter, but frequency have higher effect. High speed damping equal to high frequency damping. Low speed damping equal to low frequency damping.
So,
low speed damping affecting the car reaction on smooth road.
high speed damping affecting the car reaction on bumpy road.
Because of this low speed damping is more important than high speed damping in smooth tarmac racing, because low speed damping affect handling on smooth road.
And in GT4 since we rarely meet both at the same time (bumpy road and smooth road), the use of 3 or 4 way damping is less important.
Scaff
In the real world when you encounter a curb at high speed (think again about the increase in force from a bump at speed), as in the Integra test, the forces involved are going to act on the suspension very quickly, putting it into high-speed damping. This is why the argument that in the real world the results of the Integra test could come from a soft setting is simply rubbish, yes they it is theoretically possible. But only if the engineer set high speed damping as low as the low speed damping which would make the car un-driveable, this is quite simply a factor of firm high speed damping in action To suggest anything different show a total lack of understanding of how dampers work.
Since rumble strip contact with the tire is a bit long than usual bump, there is a chance that the spring have already at rebounce position when reaching the top of it.
Scaff
It is far more likely that GT4 allow high-speed damping to be the dominant factor, as these forces are more likely to be encountered. This would also make the suggestion that my Integra test (or the Caterham test) loss of contact to have been caused by soft damping to be very, very unlikely.
What make this has something to do with high/low speed damping value?
Scaff
Exactly how long did you spend testing the Caterham? How many laps did you run of Deep Forest? Did you drive yourself or use B-spec?
My self, 2x30 minutes. 1 lap driving, replay, change setting, 1 lap again, ....
Scaff
Dave_George has spent more time tuning cars at the ‘ring (for the excellent NRS he ran) than just about anyone I know. As the ‘ring is one of the single bumpiest tracks in GT4 he should know more than a little about suspension reaction over bumps and how best to manage it. Yet you dismiss his ‘wheel’ time and experience out of hand.
When you already think that the damper tuning don't have any weird behaviour, I think you will not investigate it. If it work, who cares. And if it is weird, blame it on the glitch of GT4 physics.
Scaff
As I said in my last post If the suspension system is too stiff then it will be unable to react quickly enough to the force it encounters. The excess of force has to go somewhere, and it is transferred to the cars body (this is not conjecture) and the result can be that the cars body is forced up, this is not a result of your strange ‘re-jump’ term, rather something that occurs during the bound phase when the suspension is too stiff to respond quickly enough to the force placed upon it.
What happen to the force in the car body after the suspension is in rebound state?
Scaff
Do you not see the contradictions you have presented in the above paragraph?
Uh, the second "previous" is for the test that I already done, the first "previous" is for the test I will do. I still don't have a chance to test the integra. Damper test in caterham (hard and soft spring) prove 10 to be softest, damper test in integra not yet.
Scaff
First you state that you discussed how real life damper is simulated in GT4 and then go on to say that you must discuss how real life dampers work.
How can you discuss how dampers are simulated in GT4 if you do not fully understand how they work in real life?
Why not? You can't explain GT4 physics "anomaly" either other than blaming it on flip limiter code.
Scaff
Next you say that you wish to test everything that has been advised, including the suspension movement under braking.
Uh, no. I never test it. After I read it again, I make it look like that, my mistakes.
Scaff
Lastly you say that All test that previously suggested by everyone still give me result that damper 10 is softest, but you have clearly stated that you have spent at most 6 hours in GT4 away from 300mph runs. How did you manage to carry out all these tests in detail in such a short period of time?
Not all test, If I already done it I will already boast about it. I don't do many lap.
Scaff
No one here has ignored these areas at all, they have all be covered by various contributors to this thread; however as has been pointed out by Team666, the 300mph runs are influenced by downforce to a large degree.
Yes, but the fact damper HAVE influence in it (no matter how small it is) is ignored.
Scaff
Visual tire movement has not been ignored, I have said that it can not be used as the only source of testing (which was what you proposed),.
"The assumption that the suspension is moving too fast to be seen is just that, an assumption and one of the damgers of just looking at the tyres. You are assuming that the visual side of GT4 is perfect and thats a flawed assumption to make. Hence the reason I am looking at all aspects visual, feel and noise.
Stop looking at the wheels/tyres and look at the actual exposed front suspension of the Caterham (as I described in my post above), it can be clearly seen to move with both a greater range and react faster with D low settings, while D high settings restrict the movement range and slow down the reactions that are present."
Why I can't use tire visual and it's ok to use suspension visual? Because suspension visual support your assumption and tire visual do not? Try again with 15/15 spring rate, if I am not wrong, the suspension move on both d-low and d-high.
Scaff
Finally in regard to snapping behaviour or any other kind of handling or feel based evidence, it was I and others that insisted that feedback of this nature was essential, at a time when you were insisting that the only proof you would accept was visual.
Ok ok. I accept feedback is important too.
Scaff
Additionally the discussion was principally in regard to you stating that it was not possible for a car with firm damper settings to leave the track surface if it encountered a bump or curb at speed. To be blunt you were wrong about this and have simply tried to change the direction and tone of the thread to divert attention away from this and avoid another indicator that in GT4 higher values are stiffer.
Uh. I make it sound that way? I just want to pronouce that in GT4 the maximum damper value is medium. And with no high amplitude road irregularity nothing can make the car fly over tarmac bump. I know I am wrong after I drive caterham to the deep forest grass (low and high speed) where it jump around more on d-low. There is successive bump that can make stiff damper (d-low) caterham fly over it afterall. So, I was wrong, you are right. There is road surface (grass) that can make caterham jump on stiff setting (d-low).
Scaff
You say above that the article does not describe a car jumping, and then say that it covers a car leaving the ground in a parabolic curve. Now to me a car that leaves the ground has jumped in one way or the other, or are we in a situation again that sees you refuse to accept an article unless it contains and exact word you demand.
Uh. I mean the car do not jump before the bump slope end.
Scaff
when you said Brick (Car body) do not have jumping power, which was a misreading of what I said. The point of this article (and I quite clearly said this) was to point out that it is more than possible for a car to leave the ground when it hits a bump, also that a stiffer car (and a car with solid suspension – which is what is being used as an example here) is about as stiff as you can get) is highly likely to leave the ground if it hits a large enough bump at a high enough speed.
I realy mean The brick do not have jumping power. If it hit the bump it will follow through the bump surface all the way to the top without ever attempting to jump before that because it do not have elastic power. If we use slimy square rubber, the rubber may not follow the bump surface and may jump before it reach the top.
Scaff
Both my Caterham tests and Integra tests have used every type of feedback and information that we have available to us (and I am still looking at ways of increasing the amount of info).
I still don't have a chance to test the integra.
BTW, do you test (take picture) the integra 6 time like you usually do? is it hard to push the pause button at the right moment (maximum height)?
Scaff
As a side note on this you are now grabbing at Team666’s comment on the FGT (in which it was noted that the wishbones did not move at all) and using it to dismiss my Caterham test
No. Until I test it myself I will not dissmiss that.
Scaff
now while the FGT suspension may well not move in any way (I personally can’t confirm this as I am in Italy with work – but look forward to trying it for myself) the Caterham Fireblade’s wishbones certainly does. It moves quite clearly, and anyone who has tried my tests and taken the time to fully analyse the replay would know (wait didn’t you say you had carried out these tests fully!!!!!).
That's not fair, I have to accept your suspension visual and I have to dismiss my tire movement visual. I agree that the suspension seen move slower in d-high didn't I? You don't agree to my explanation for what causing that, remember? Test the caterham with 15/15 spring rate too. I recall the suspension move on both d-low and d-high.
Scaff
sucahyo
Gran Turismo 4
Car with damper 10 will bounce more than 1
Disagree very, very strongly.
Huh? I am not saying my conclusion here, I am posting my test result on caterham on tarmac after it bounce back to the road. On 5/5 and 15/15 spring rate using d-low will result less bouncing, using d-high will result in more bouncing. I play it on my friend slim PS2. Do I have to post video for it? Another flip limiter code magic again?
Since you can do it easier, why don't you test it? which damper value give more rebouncing? Use the help of the grass this time. What I mean by more rebouncing is on d-high the car will bouncing around like 4 or 5 time, and d-low around 2 or 3 time.
If you have different bounce count, post your result.
If you find 1 have more bounce than 10, tell me how you do it. If I can replicate it,
I will ADMIT damper 1 is softest and stop arguing about how damper simulated in GT4.
Scaff
BTW – You may have also noticed that I have edited the title of this thread
No problem.
Dave_George
Once again you have brought in other issues that have nothing to do with GT4, this time its how cars bounce in Need for speed Porsche amongst others??
Just show how rebouncing related to damper value in other game. Softer setting supposed to bounce more.
Dave_George
The Integra test should have been more than enough to answer your question's in full, the two photo's clearly show just how a stiffer damper will affect how the car handles the kerb.
I still don't have a chance to test this in GT4. In GT2 different spring rate and speed can yield different result.
Dave_George
Once again I think you need to do more work with GT4 and stop involving other game's/simulator's and the issue of dropping cars from height as it is NOT relevant.
just similarity checking. dropping car from height is to find out what you all thinking about how damper react to that.
The answer suspension is not reacting quick enough make me assume you all think that dropping car from 1 meter height will not make the suspension move at all. That is, damper and spring will not affect how the car rebounce. So, if you drop the car from 1 meter height it will rebounce the same no matter what spring rate or damper you use. Since it's the car body that receive the force.
That, do not make any sense for me.
omg I don't know what to say anymore..
