Is democracy right for every country?

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Well that answer kind of destroys most of the arguments in this thread doesn't it ?

You need a Constitution with a Bill of rights along with the correct philosophy and an educated public for Democracy to truly work .


Not easy to find is it ?
I don't know about the educated public part. Sometimes I feel as if that is giving to much credit to the average voter.

If you had a system that allowed a majority to control a minority would it be a democracy? Let's look at the definition and see.

dictionary.com
de‧moc‧ra‧cy  /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -cies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government:
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
There seems to be a lot of mention of equality or free in there.
Heck, definition 5 even says it is distinguished from any privileged class, but with respect of their political power. In other words - equal.

Can you have any of this without the correct philosophy or a Bill of Rights? Those are the things that make it a democracy, not add-ons to make it a good democracy.
 
I don't know about the educated public part. Sometimes I feel as if that is giving to much credit to the average voter.

Can you have any of this without the correct philosophy or a Bill of Rights? Those are the things that make it a democracy, not add-ons to make it a good democracy.

I kind of hinted in my above post that education is needed.

A lack of education means that the public can be manipulated and controlled easily. Like I said, knowledge is power.

There are countries out there that tried to become democracies. They held fair elections, a good leader was established, the people were happy. Then some rebel took control of government with the support of the people and turned it into a dictatorship again.

How does a rebel gain support of the people? By promising them things that they already have, by misquoting or misconstruing the words and policies of the current ruler, etc.

An educated society would be better prepared to fight insurgent coups by rebels trying to demolish democracy.

So I guess my point is that education is not needed to start a democracy, but is necessary to keep it stable.
 
Origionally only men and landowners where judged fit to vote because they were thought to be educated. Thats one of the largest issues in any society that chooses to become democratic, who has the right to vote ? The history of Great Britain gives a greater example of this than that of the US . The US was more eagalitarian ..but not by much if you read the letters of Jefferson and others of the era .
The US has become a super power and an economic giant of epic proportions , because it expects and demands each individual to contribute and to vote . Some may argue a little about the civil rights movement and the womens sufferage movement but they would be missing the point. The US was designed as a classless society and gave every male adult the francise . Every man is and was expected to pull his own weight and make the best he could of himself . One man one vote was a novelty idea at the time and derided as destined for failure , as the elite at the time thought the " masses " too stupid to be able to govern themselves and their own affairs , never mind a country .

Today people fall into that same trap with Iraq and anyplace else they feel cant handle democracy .
 
So, you are saying that there is a case somewhere where a dictatorship might lead to less people being poor and more people being treated fairly? Please, show me an example of this.

Every society will have people who are poor or find that their current way of life no longer works as society moves in whatever direction it is going, but in a democracy those people have the option to change their place in life. In a dictatorship it generally (not always) requires you being a friend of those in power to be able to move up in the world.

Many people in mainland Brazil are faced with this, and many believe that pre-democracy, life was better. The current democratic government is still being accused of corruption. I couldn't call you out on the numbers, but dictatorship was overthrown by democracy in a national vote. Looking at the demographics, the percentage of the population that lives in the cities is larger than the inland.

Yes, you can and yes, it does. If I want to be a car salesman I can go and try to do that. If I want to be an architecht I can go to school and do that. If I want to sell houses I can go test for my realtor's license and do that. I miught suck at any of them or I might succeed. No system of government or social structure will guarantee you to have success, but Democracy does allow you to try whatever you wish, as long as it does not infringe on teh righst of others.

Are you saying that schools don't exist under dictatorships or monarchies?

People who make a few dollars a day cannot afford schools and cannot sell their farms because nobody would buy something like that. Say there is a fisherman who makes boats for his village and surrounding areas. He cannot simply pack up shop and move to the city (which would also harm the rest of his community). Depending on where he lives, he also cannot fish for a certain time of the year, because the government won't allow it. He can feed his family one meal a day, but he wouldn't want to move into a cramped city, where poverty is rampant and crime rates are terrible, putting himself and his family at great risk of hunger and poverty. What does this man do?

Another example would be the rule of Karlis Ulmanis in pre-WWII Latvia. Ask anyone who was alive back then and they will sigh and say "those were the days..." And they have the right to say that, as he definitely helped the country's development far better than any government prior to him tried to achieve, all as a dictatorship, by definition.

I think people here are strongly associating dictatorship with tyranny.
 
Many people in mainland Brazil are faced with this, and many believe that pre-democracy, life was better.

Better to be ruled than free eh? As long as there's food on the table, who cares about freedom? Who cares about having a voice in government?

You'll have to excuse me, that just goes against everything my country was founded on.
 
Many people in mainland Brazil are faced with this, and many believe that pre-democracy, life was better. The current democratic government is still being accused of corruption. I couldn't call you out on the numbers, but dictatorship was overthrown by democracy in a national vote.
So a corrupt government means that democracy failed? Can they not elect new leaders that won't be corrupt? Is no one willing to stand up and run for office with the hope of changing the corruption?

Looking at the demographics, the percentage of the population that lives in the cities is larger than the inland.
This is different than successful democracies how? This is why the US uses an electoral system.

Are you saying that schools don't exist under dictatorships or monarchies?
Um, no. I was just using the example of going to school to be an architect as an example of how I can up and change jobs whenever I want, which you seem to be saying is not possible in a democracy.

People who make a few dollars a day cannot afford schools and cannot sell their farms because nobody would buy something like that.
If you are that poor you can get loans for school. But how can they afford to pay it back? Well, if you are trying to improve your current standing in life then it should be self-explanatory. I got through school on loans and I am now paying them back, something that I couldn't have done with just a high school degree.

Nobody will buy a farm? There is always someone who wants to buy land, maybe not to use as a farm, but they will buy land. Land especially sells easily in farming communities where it is cheap compared to the prices in cities. I know people who went out and bought huge farms just to get away from the city and have a quiet country life. They grow nothing, but they love sitting on their back porch and enjoying the quiet. I even have some friends that did this and now watch Amish carriages go up and down their road.

Say there is a fisherman who makes boats for his village and surrounding areas. He cannot simply pack up shop and move to the city (which would also harm the rest of his community).
Is he a fisherman or does he make boats? He sounds like he has two jobs and selling boats is a very lucrative business. But that is beside the point. Why can't he pack up, sell his property, boats, and tools and move? In the city he would have to find a different job, unless he is selling fancy boats to the rich now. I don't understand why he can't do this or why he wants to.

Depending on where he lives, he also cannot fish for a certain time of the year, because the government won't allow it.
I didn't know there was a fishing season. I can fish locally year round if I chose to. I know certain types of fish are limited based on their breeding habits, but these are mostly ocean fish and there are always more than one type of fish in the ocean. Besides, any law like this would benefit him in the long run as it protects the fish population and keeps him from killing off entire populations.

He can feed his family one meal a day, but he wouldn't want to move into a cramped city, where poverty is rampant and crime rates are terrible, putting himself and his family at great risk of hunger and poverty. What does this man do?
Not move. He doesn't want to, apparently. It seems that the city is a very dangerous place to live, which is not true of most cities. If the society has moved along enough to where his country fishing/boat making business is struggling then the cities would be becoming large prosperous places with a lot of businesses. It might even have a fish market where his skills are highly valuable.

Another example would be the rule of Karlis Ulmanis in pre-WWII Latvia. Ask anyone who was alive back then and they will sigh and say "those were the days..." And they have the right to say that, as he definitely helped the country's development far better than any government prior to him tried to achieve, all as a dictatorship, by definition.
And what if Karlis Ulmanis had made bad decisions? How could they have changed things? Could they have voted him out?

Latvia's current situation has a lot to do with the fact that they have only been independent of the Soviet Union for 15 years (Russian troops were only completely out 12 years ago), until recently their economy was still strongly tied to the Russian economy and they suffered with Russia when they had a financial crisis in 1998, and it is suspected that the banks are facilitating illicit activity.

They are also dealing with treatment issues with ethnic Russians (30% of the population) and so it seems they haven't gotten the equality thing down yet.

Once again I will ask, if the system is currently struggling or corrupt does it mean it failed?

And to add on to what danoff said: I would rather be free and poor than rich and owned. What good is being wealthy if someone else tells you how to live your life?

I think people here are strongly associating dictatorship with tyranny.
I don't care if the dictator turns out to be the greatest leader in the world; I'm still not free.
 
Live free or die ...or in my case ...I live free or you die trying to enslave me .

I am glad I grew up only knowing freedom and so have my children . And I truly thank all those that through the years helped it be that way . I value freedom more than I value a life without it .
 
So a corrupt government means that democracy failed? Can they not elect new leaders that won't be corrupt? Is no one willing to stand up and run for office with the hope of changing the corruption?
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In theory, you are correct. The situation hasn't changed all that much since the 80s, so there must be something people aren't willing to do...

Um, no. I was just using the example of going to school to be an architect as an example of how I can up and change jobs whenever I want, which you seem to be saying is not possible in a democracy.

I'm not saying it is impossible. I had to think of a profession where it would've been difficult.

If you are that poor you can get loans for school. But how can they afford to pay it back? Well, if you are trying to improve your current standing in life then it should be self-explanatory. I got through school on loans and I am now paying them back, something that I couldn't have done with just a high school degree.

Are you comparing the American infrastructure with people who don't own wallets? People haven't seen a bank in their lives, make a few dollars a day, which isn't even enough to feed themselves properly, don't have a school 50km near their house, nevermind one where they could the appropriate schooling, and you're expecting them to get a loan for university? Brazil's education system goes up to 4th grade, I belive. That's where the current generation is going, but what about people who have spent their lives on their farms? They're 65 years old.

Nobody will buy a farm? There is always someone who wants to buy land, maybe not to use as a farm, but they will buy land. Land especially sells easily in farming communities where it is cheap compared to the prices in cities. I know people who went out and bought huge farms just to get away from the city and have a quiet country life. They grow nothing, but they love sitting on their back porch and enjoying the quiet. I even have some friends that did this and now watch Amish carriages go up and down their road.

Would people buy a farm in the middle of the desert, especially if they know the land won't turn any profit? This is the kind of thing you'd vbe trying to sell if you were a farmer. What if you did something else, like a miner? Almost all mines pay the same, and it still isn't enough. You don't have anything to sell in that case.

Again it looks like you are taking this as if America was to turn from dictatorship to deomcracy. Other places, in the middle of the forest, or desert or mountains, things aren't quite as easy to move.

I didn't know there was a fishing season. I can fish locally year round if I chose to. I know certain types of fish are limited based on their breeding habits, but these are mostly ocean fish and there are always more than one type of fish in the ocean. Besides, any law like this would benefit him in the long run as it protects the fish population and keeps him from killing off entire populations.

Some places, there is a fishing season. If the citizens around the rivers do get subsidies from the government, which isn't always the case, it still isn't enough to cover the essentials of living.

It seems that the city is a very dangerous place to live, which is not true of most cities. If the society has moved along enough to where his country fishing/boat making business is struggling then the cities would be becoming large prosperous places with a lot of businesses. It might even have a fish market where his skills are highly valuable.

Reading this write-up by your government, the cities don't appear to be very safe at all.

According to your ideology, poverty wouldn't exist for billions of people hunger wouldn't be an issue at all.

And what if Karlis Ulmanis had made bad decisions? How could they have changed things? Could they have voted him out?

The question was to show an example where the people were better off with a dictatorship. I provided one where it is clear that the democracy was not working, was overthrown without violence (only one shot was fired, and that was by a parliament member who shot the ceiling of his bathroom just to say a shot was indeed fired), and the replacing dictatorship reigned over a prosperous and happy people. I also provided an example of another country who's democracy hasn't been doing too well for the time being.

Latvia's current situation has a lot to do with the fact that they have only been independent of the Soviet Union for 15 years (Russian troops were only completely out 12 years ago), until recently their economy was still strongly tied to the Russian economy and they suffered with Russia when they had a financial crisis in 1998, and it is suspected that the banks are facilitating illicit activity.

This has nothing to do with political decisions in the 30s. It is what you would expect of a country who's ruler tried to assimilate the county. Of course it will take some time to regain independant economic stability.

They are also dealing with treatment issues with ethnic Russians (30% of the population) and so it seems they haven't gotten the equality thing down yet.

The equality portion is something that they are trying to avoid, not improve. The proximity to Russia (and it's fleeing workers) is somewhat invasive to the language and culture, especially in Riga and closer cities like Ogre and Daugavpils. Avoiding such fading of the country's basis, Vaira's been taking what she saw in Quebec and the English/French debate, and applying similar language laws to Latvian law.

Again, she's bringing the country up in recognition and putting the name on the map. The people all love her, the only ones who don't are the Russians for obvious reasons.

Once again I will ask, if the system is currently struggling or corrupt does it mean it failed?

If the democracy which was meant to replace the dictatorship for the benefit of the people is corrupt and struggling, is it still better? If living conditions have gotten poorer and poorer by the week with no looking up, then it's still better for the people?

I'm sure many millions of people would disagree with that.

I'm not arguing tha dictatorship is better, I know it isn't, but the comment came up that no dictatorship ever has been good for the people, which is untrue. I provided a solid case, which you didn't bother contesting, where the dictatorship helped the country. I appreciate my freedom, but I think that if I was out of money and food because of my democracy, I wouldn't slap a smile on and say "At least I can vote every four years!"
 
I am glad I grew up only knowing freedom and so have my children . And I truly thank all those that through the years helped it be that way . I value freedom more than I value a life without it .

I grew up living in a free country, but through non-English school I was drilled how important this is from people who had to live without freedom. Having your own language and your own land you should respect more than anything else. Without your land your culture can dwell, without your language, you are nothing. This is something you value a lot more when someone tries to take it from you.
 
Are you comparing the American infrastructure with people who don't own wallets? People haven't seen a bank in their lives, make a few dollars a day, which isn't even enough to feed themselves properly, don't have a school 50km near their house, nevermind one where they could the appropriate schooling, and you're expecting them to get a loan for university? Brazil's education system goes up to 4th grade, I belive. That's where the current generation is going, but what about people who have spent their lives on their farms? They're 65 years old.
A country at this stage has years to go before democratic ideas would cause a growing city to threaten a farm. The 65-year-olds may even be dead before they see the full fruits of the system, especially as some cling to the old ways causing the government to stumble along as some try to make things the same as always and possibly even leading to corruption because the idea of personal power is too tempting to just drop.

Would people buy a farm in the middle of the desert, especially if they know the land won't turn any profit? This is the kind of thing you'd vbe trying to sell if you were a farmer. What if you did something else, like a miner? Almost all mines pay the same, and it still isn't enough. You don't have anything to sell in that case.
If you tried to farm in a desert to start with I can't help you there. You just have to find the next sucker to come along. As for miners, I would like to introduce you to my in laws, a mining family from eastern Kentucky from back in the days when you lived in the mine towns and paid your entire paycheck back to the mine owner just to live and eat. My wife is part of the second non-mining generation. Her father decided it wasn't for him and left.

Now I know that is an example of America, but a miner can decide to leave and find another job. It isn't easy. It never is. I have never promised any of this would be quick or easy. These countries will have to take time to grow and adapt for the economy to make it easy to jump jobs, but if you decide it is too much work or too hard and just give up on trying then there is only one person to blame. The only way a person can blame others is if there is not a system of equality in the government and then it has not fully met the definition of democracy. They voted but they are not a democracy.

Again it looks like you are taking this as if America was to turn from dictatorship to deomcracy. Other places, in the middle of the forest, or desert or mountains, things aren't quite as easy to move.
No one ever said it would be easy or quick. The Russian economy still struggles, but a few family friends from Moscow say it is slowly getting better everyday. It takes time. Mindsets have to change from having their lives led to leading their lives. Country leaders have to learn that they are a representative of the citizens and not their rulers. Businesses and economies have to grow. None of this will happen over night.

Some places, there is a fishing season. If the citizens around the rivers do get subsidies from the government, which isn't always the case, it still isn't enough to cover the essentials of living.
Coming from tobacco country I understand the whole subsidies from the government doesn't cover expenses thing. Of course, there is a lot less tobacco around here now too. I see a lot of soy beans.

Reading this write-up by your government, the cities don't appear to be very safe at all.
It also says that nighttime travel in rural areas can result in being robbed or kidnapped and they highly caution against doing that. City or country, the crime is bad.

It sounds like a case of a country not fully on its feet yet. As to the reason for all these crimes, I can't say. I don't know the Brazilian situation well, but from how I read it you are safer visiting the cities as long as you avoid certain situations than you are going into the country where there are Colombian Terrorost, drug runners, and ransom groups.

According to your ideology, poverty wouldn't exist for billions of people hunger wouldn't be an issue at all.
Maybe you didn't notice that I am a capitalist. I believe in taking personal responsibility for your place in life. It is socialism that wishes to spread the wealth to everyone aunder the assumption that everyone would help each other grow and prosper and there will be no poverty.

My ideology requires living under a form of democracy in order for people to be free to do whatever they need to do to achieve their goals. I believe there will be work, struggle, and maybe even failures on the way to get there, but someone who tries and never gives up is great.

There will always be poverty, no matter the form of government, but democracy allows you the ability to try and achieve more.


The question was to show an example where the people were better off with a dictatorship. I provided one where it is clear that the democracy was not working, was overthrown without violence (only one shot was fired, and that was by a parliament member who shot the ceiling of his bathroom just to say a shot was indeed fired), and the replacing dictatorship reigned over a prosperous and happy people.
Here is my issue with this being a dictatorship. He still ruled over the people and had sole control over them. I am sure theer are some that disagreed with him because you can't please everyone. Were their voices heard? Were they allowed to speak out against him publicly? Could they openly protest or were they given an opportunity to try and put a better dictator in his place?

I can probably find examples of slave owners that treated their slaves well and the slaves were happy and chose to stay as employees after emancipation, but he is still a slave owner.

This has nothing to do with political decisions in the 30s. It is what you would expect of a country who's ruler tried to assimilate the county. Of course it will take some time to regain independant economic stability.
So those that you said would say "those were the days" should be more patient.

The equality portion is something that they are trying to avoid, not improve.
And when it is 30% of your population you will have non-stop problems. Until they learn to treat native Russians equally and deal with the situation properly this won't end.

If the democracy which was meant to replace the dictatorship for the benefit of the people is corrupt and struggling, is it still better? If living conditions have gotten poorer and poorer by the week with no looking up, then it's still better for the people?

I'm sure many millions of people would disagree with that.
If a car has mechanical problems does that mean cars are bad? A corrupt and struggling democracy is not actually working. Leaders in a democracy have to be representative of the people and when one becomes corrupt, by definition, it is not a democracy.

I'm not arguing tha dictatorship is better, I know it isn't, but the comment came up that no dictatorship ever has been good for the people, which is untrue. I provided a solid case, which you didn't bother contesting, where the dictatorship helped the country. I appreciate my freedom, but I think that if I was out of money and food because of my democracy, I wouldn't slap a smile on and say "At least I can vote every four years!"
You mean this?
me
So, you are saying that there is a case somewhere where a dictatorship might lead to less people being poor and more people being treated fairly? Please, show me an example of this.
Yes you gave me an example of a prospering dictatorship. I can't argue that, but what I can do is show that there has yet to be a working democracy in place to measure it against.

I do have to ask: How can your democracy cause you to be out of money or food? The only way this can happen is if the government makes it illegal for you to work or comes in and takes your money and food. At that point it is no longer representative and no longer a democracy.
 
I do have to ask: How can your democracy cause you to be out of money or food? The only way this can happen is if the government makes it illegal for you to work or comes in and takes your money and food. At that point it is no longer representative and no longer a democracy.

That's easy: Because it's not right for every country. I don't know much about politics, but your arguments (pro-democracy for all) make a lot of sense for showing that democracy is the most ideal form of representing people that we know of - but it's still missing the point of conveying how it's right for every single country to be ruled by. Now I know that you think if a democracy is failing a country (e.g. Brazil as quoted by Exige) then it is failing to live up to it's purpose as a represantative of the people, and I agree on that, but maybe it's because it just isn't right for the Country, and its unique characteristics and cultures? Maybe it isn't the most effective form of ruling for those people, even IF it is based on the ideal principles of democracy and the freedom given by it.
 
That's easy: Because it's not right for every country. I don't know much about politics, but your arguments (pro-democracy for all) make a lot of sense for showing that democracy is the most ideal form of representing people that we know of - but it's still missing the point of conveying how it's right for every single country to be ruled by. Now I know that you think if a democracy is failing a country (e.g. Brazil as quoted by Exige) then it is failing to live up to it's purpose as a represantative of the people, and I agree on that, but maybe it's because it just isn't right for the Country, and its unique characteristics and cultures? Maybe it isn't the most effective form of ruling for those people, even IF it is based on the ideal principles of democracy and the freedom given by it.

Democracy is right for everyone. Now, if the citizens choose not to take advantages of the advantages of democracy, then that's on them.

People should be governed by people that they have some say in.

The question is, can you show me where a democracy is wrong?
 
That's easy: Because it's not right for every country. I don't know much about politics, but your arguments (pro-democracy for all) make a lot of sense for showing that democracy is the most ideal form of representing people that we know of - but it's still missing the point of conveying how it's right for every single country to be ruled by. Now I know that you think if a democracy is failing a country (e.g. Brazil as quoted by Exige) then it is failing to live up to it's purpose as a represantative of the people, and I agree on that, but maybe it's because it just isn't right for the Country, and its unique characteristics and cultures? Maybe it isn't the most effective form of ruling for those people, even IF it is based on the ideal principles of democracy and the freedom given by it.


look at the other way , the people NOT having a choice in who rules them is so WRONG . So you either have rule by force or divine right or by democracy .

So how can you make an argument against democratic rule ?
 
That's easy: Because it's not right for every country. I don't know much about politics, but your arguments (pro-democracy for all) make a lot of sense for showing that democracy is the most ideal form of representing people that we know of - but it's still missing the point of conveying how it's right for every single country to be ruled by.
It is right because it is wrong to have any form of government that is not the will of the people. Anything less is a lack of basic freedom, which is always wrong.

Now I know that you think if a democracy is failing a country (e.g. Brazil as quoted by Exige) then it is failing to live up to it's purpose as a represantative of the people, and I agree on that, but maybe it's because it just isn't right for the Country, and its unique characteristics and cultures? Maybe it isn't the most effective form of ruling for those people, even IF it is based on the ideal principles of democracy and the freedom given by it.
It disturbs me to think that there may be entire societies of individuals that are so weak-minded that they must be led under some form of dictatorial rule in order to be succesful. It is just as sad as a 30-year-old man still living in his mom's basement because he can't survive otherwise.

Did you see iRobot (the movie, not the book)? SPOILER ALERT This is the same premise that caused the robots to try and take over humanity, because their control computer didn't think that we were capable of taking care of ourselves in a free society so they must rule us in order to protect us. Why is the idea a scary thought in fiction but then it seems perfectly reasonable to some people when it comes to real-life politics?

(Last pop-culture reference, I promise)
When did the idea that Big Brother might be an ideal situation for anyone become acceptable?
 
(Last pop-culture reference, I promise)
When did the idea that Big Brother might be an ideal situation for anyone become acceptable?

...the moment that human rights took a backseat to human life.

The socialist movement is all about compromising human rights in favor of what is supposed to be a higher standard of living for the majority. The more ingrained socialism becomes, the further we are from the days when our forefathers died to free our country from a few taxes and a lack of representation.
 
The socialist movement is all about compromising human rights in favor of what is supposed to be a higher standard of living for the majority. The more ingrained socialism becomes, the further we are from the days when our forefathers died to free our country from a few taxes and a lack of representation.
How many times does it have to fail before people realize that it doesn't work?

It looks good to poor people who are greedy and want what everyone else has given to them. But they fail to realize that same greed is what makes it fail.
 
Better to have food on the table than have a say in your government eh? That's pathetic.


Well I dare say that if you and your countrymen experience a prolonged drought of food... I'd rather have the food than vote.

However in the long run, those problems can be sorted out.

As an individual with human nature, I want what's best for me and not for my country's needs. So if I was in a failing democracy and had no more food, I'd want to go back to a dictator if that meant food for me and my family.

From a macro perspective though... the sacrifice of few would lead to the best for many.

Can anyone give specific examples of where a country had a dictator, then became democratic; and the people suffered for a prolonged time?
 
Well I dare say that if you and your countrymen experience a prolonged drought of food... I'd rather have the food than vote.

However in the long run, those problems can be sorted out.

As an individual with human nature, I want what's best for me and not for my country's needs. So if I was in a failing democracy and had no more food, I'd want to go back to a dictator if that meant food for me and my family.

I find it sad that you'd trade representative government for food. That you'd rather live under tyranny...
 
A country at this stage has years to go before democratic ideas would cause a growing city to threaten a farm. The 65-year-olds may even be dead before they see the full fruits of the system, especially as some cling to the old ways causing the government to stumble along as some try to make things the same as always and possibly even leading to corruption because the idea of personal power is too tempting to just drop.

Now I know that is an example of America, but a miner can decide to leave and find another job. It isn't easy. It never is. I have never promised any of this would be quick or easy. These countries will have to take time to grow and adapt for the economy to make it easy to jump jobs, but if you decide it is too much work or too hard and just give up on trying then there is only one person to blame. The only way a person can blame others is if there is not a system of equality in the government and then it has not fully met the definition of democracy. They voted but they are not a democracy.

No one ever said it would be easy or quick. The Russian economy still struggles, but a few family friends from Moscow say it is slowly getting better everyday. It takes time. Mindsets have to change from having their lives led to leading their lives. Country leaders have to learn that they are a representative of the citizens and not their rulers. Businesses and economies have to grow. None of this will happen over night.

My ideology requires living under a form of democracy in order for people to be free to do whatever they need to do to achieve their goals. I believe there will be work, struggle, and maybe even failures on the way to get there, but someone who tries and never gives up is great.

This is all why I had to make myself include this in my original post:

me
In the long run, it is debateable whether or not democracy will be helping a country like this.

But we can't really debate that though. Unless we can predict exactly what will happen, then there isn't a solution to which way is better for this country (and for the record, mining is illegal in many parts of brazil, but the miners only earn money with what they find. Land can also be taken and sold to industrialists who slash-and-burn the forest to make room for soy fields, even if the return off of the forest's resources is far higher than crops).

FK
Here is my issue with this being a dictatorship. He still ruled over the people and had sole control over them. I am sure theer are some that disagreed with him because you can't please everyone. Were their voices heard? Were they allowed to speak out against him publicly? Could they openly protest or were they given an opportunity to try and put a better dictator in his place?

He did not practice "silencing" people because of their opinions. Most were happy, and even if it was an elected government, the opposition that wasn't happy wouldn't be elected either way.

But you're saying they still didn't have the chance, which I understand.

FK
And when it is 30% of your population you will have non-stop problems. Until they learn to treat native Russians equally and deal with the situation properly this won't end.

The native Russian population isn't 30%, it's actually closer to 5%.

FK
You mean this?

Yes I do. I enjoy being alive.
 
But we can't really debate that though. Unless we can predict exactly what will happen, then there isn't a solution to which way is better for this country

Yes there is. Maybe not better economically, militarily, or socially, but we know exactly what is best from the point of view of human rights...

and that's what matters most.
 
I find it sad that you'd trade representative government for food. That you'd rather live under tyranny...

Make it personal.

You and your family, under the prescribed hypothetical situation, are really struggling under democracy. You have no food to feed your kids, they must scrounge for food. Your wife is fed up with you for your constant reminder that at least now you can vote and be represented. She even exclaims that she doesn't care if she is oppressed, as long as her kids have food to eat.

Sound reasonable?

I'm 100% for democracy; but it is asinine to assume that people who are initially hurt by a governmental shift to democracy would simply be happy that they helped put that government into power, despite their struggle to survive.
 
Democracy is right for everyone. Now, if the citizens choose not to take advantages of the advantages of democracy, then that's on them.

People should be governed by people that they have some say in.

The question is, can you show me where a democracy is wrong?

The problem is it's not about the people's choosing not to take advantage of democracy - this is about how it can be detrimental to the country and it's people because it just isn't the right system for them to live with. Just because a democratic government is failing it doesn't mean the people are actively choosing not to use the advantages afforded by democracy.

look at the other way , the people NOT having a choice in who rules them is so WRONG . So you either have rule by force or divine right or by democracy .

So how can you make an argument against democratic rule ?

I can't make one against democratic rule when all the criteria is ideal, I'm saying that not every single country is capable to prosper under democracy in the same way as the "West", and therefore why it isn't "right" for every country to adopt.

It is right because it is wrong to have any form of government that is not the will of the people. Anything less is a lack of basic freedom, which is always wrong.


It disturbs me to think that there may be entire societies of individuals that are so weak-minded that they must be led under some form of dictatorial rule in order to be succesful. It is just as sad as a 30-year-old man still living in his mom's basement because he can't survive otherwise.

Which brings me to the point about different cultures and suitability for rule under democracy. Your 30 year old man scenario makes me think of something - arranged marriages. Now to the majority of the people who enjoy freedom in western countries, the thought of arranged marriages and such a strong family unit and rule under the family seems a terrible way of life, and an infringment on the persons (usually woman's) "basic freedom". Yet this is perfectly acceptable for millions of people, and they wouldn't want to change this "system" for anything, no matter how much you tell them about the principles of freedom we were raised with. They believe it to be in the best interests for their society, and who are we to argue with that - do we just assume that they're all wrong about what's best for them since they are ignorant of the better choices available to us?

FoolKiller
Did you see iRobot (the movie, not the book)? SPOILER ALERT This is the same premise that caused the robots to try and take over humanity, because their control computer didn't think that we were capable of taking care of ourselves in a free society so they must rule us in order to protect us. Why is the idea a scary thought in fiction but then it seems perfectly reasonable to some people when it comes to real-life politics?

(Last pop-culture reference, I promise)
When did the idea that Big Brother might be an ideal situation for anyone become acceptable?

Yeah, I saw that movie and loved it, and that is a good reference. The main difference is that the "controller" would be a robot, something not human so we would understandably feel oppressed about being ruled by something and not someone. Also this would be talking about global ruling and total domination - not the same as the argument I'm trying to make about how each country should be treated differently and why it wouldn't suit certain people and cultures.

Better to have food on the table than have a say in your government eh? That's pathetic.

It's not just a question of having food on the table (although if you ask families living under those circumstances I'm pretty sure I'd know what they'd want), it's about what is right and best for the countries in question.
 
Make it personal.

Ok

kenny
You and your family, under the prescribed hypothetical situation, are really struggling under democracy. You have no food to feed your kids, they must scrounge for food. Your wife is fed up with you for your constant reminder that at least now you can vote and be represented. She even exclaims that she doesn't care if she is oppressed, as long as her kids have food to eat.

My wife is even more hardcore about this stuff than I am. I'm convinced I'd break before she would. That's because I wouldn't have married someone who didn't have her priorities straight.

Kenny
I'm 100% for democracy; but it is asinine to assume that people who are initially hurt by a governmental shift to democracy would simply be happy that they helped put that government into power, despite their struggle to survive.

You mean like the early days of America? People died to put this government in place. They died and their family members died, that's as much a price as anyone can pay for freedom and they chose it over much less tyranny than many people live under today.

KS
It's not just a question of having food on the table (although if you ask families living under those circumstances I'm pretty sure I'd know what they'd want), it's about what is right and best for the countries in question.

I agree. And what's best for those countries is to uphold basic human rights, establish freedom and representative government.
 
The problem is it's not about the people's choosing not to take advantage of democracy - this is about how it can be detrimental to the country and it's people because it just isn't the right system for them to live with. Just because a democratic government is failing it doesn't mean the people are actively choosing not to use the advantages afforded by democracy.

Actually, if it's a legitimate democracy, I would say it is. I share some of the responsibility for what my leaders have done since I've been old enough to vote since I had a say in them being there.

If I elect people that abuse the system and mistreat citizens. Then that's on the voting populous. Again, this is all assuming that the voting system is valid(unlike MAryland 👎 ). And the same goes when they do very well for the citizens.

Also, you didn't answer my question.
 
Here's an interesting one to enter into this discussion.

As part of a talk with the British Muslim community in the last few days, the Home Secretary (John Reid) was heckled by a Muslim extremist called Abu Izzadeen.

Yesterday BBC Radio 4 interviewed Abu Izzadeen and the piece can be listened to by anyone with Real Player.

Click on the link below and opt to open with Real Player, the (20 minute) section of the program will then stream.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_abu_20060922.ram

Now the interview has sparked quite a bit of debate over allowing someone with these views to get airtime. Muslim leaders in the UK have publicly stated that he does not speak for them or the community.

So on the subject of Democracy, should people of this nature be allowed a free voice (please listen before commenting).

For me all Abu Izzadeen managed to do was look like a foolish nutter, but I'm not exactly the sort of person who is going to be swayed by him in the first place.

Regards

Scaff
 
My wife is even more hardcore about this stuff than I am. I'm convinced I'd break before she would. That's because I wouldn't have married someone who didn't have her priorities straight.

I find that truly incredible. What priorities, specifically, did you marry for her if I may ask?

You mean like the early days of America? People died to put this government in place. They died and their family members died, that's as much a price as anyone can pay for freedom and they chose it over much less tyranny than many people live under today.

Yes, and I am happy that they endured it instead of being selfish like people are inclined to be.

However in that specific circumstance... the British government was tyrannical and was infringing on many people's lives. So what going back is there? The political momentum at the time was to join the Yankees and fight Britain. If Americans had decided to give up and return under British control... the British government would have imposed harsher laws on us still. It was in the average American's best interest to fight for freedom.
 
I find that truly incredible. What priorities, specifically, did you marry for her if I may ask?

I didn't marry her for her priorities, but I wouldn't have married someone who valued life above a voice in government.

ktb
However in that specific circumstance... the British government was tyrannical and was infringing on many people's lives. So what going back is there? The political momentum at the time was to join the Yankees and fight Britain. If Americans had decided to give up and return under British control... the British government would have imposed harsher laws on us still. It was in the average American's best interest to fight for freedom.

They could have simply said to themselves, "it's quite possible there won't be as much food on the table if we win the war... so we'd better not risk it."... but they valued freedom and representation over life/food.
 
I agree. And what's best for those countries is to uphold basic human rights, establish freedom and representative government.


Actually, if it's a legitimate democracy, I would say it is. I share some of the responsibility for what my leaders have done since I've been old enough to vote since I had a say in them being there.

If I elect people that abuse the system and mistreat citizens. Then that's on the voting populous. Again, this is all assuming that the voting system is valid(unlike MAryland 👎 ). And the same goes when they do very well for the citizens.

What I'm trying to say is that in doing that to some countries, you would be doing more harm than good. Granted the people would all have the freedom to vote, but what would be the point when either the choices are poor or there is revolting, corruption etc?

Swift
Also, you didn't answer my question.

If you mean where democracy has failed, then an example I can think of is Congo - although we'll see if their newly elected government will change this in the coming years. Here is a page that argues better than me about the problems in Africa concerning democracy.
 
What I'm trying to say is that in doing that to some countries, you would be doing more harm than good. Granted the people would all have the freedom to vote, but what would be the point when either the choices are poor or there is revolting, corruption etc?

As long as you're free to vote for anyone, voters can do something about it.
 
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