Oil Alternatives!

  • Thread starter GT4 genius
  • 297 comments
  • 12,989 views

Which oil alternative will be dominate in the next 10 to 20 years

  • Hydrogen or hydrogen based fuel cells

    Votes: 17 25.0%

  • Bio-Diesel

    Votes: 22 32.4%

  • Electricity

    Votes: 5 7.4%

  • None, we'll use every drop of oil in the ground!

    Votes: 22 32.4%

  • "Other"

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • Total voters
    68
I definitely saw a commercial for the 7 hydrogen car. I also looked it up here and they are actually producing it. I have no idea why, seeing that there are maybe two hydrogen stations in the country. My guess is that it is just a publicity stunt.
 
philly cheese
I might have done my chemistry wrong though.
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No, you're good. Liquid hydrogen is so light it will actually run UP a vertical surface. Seen it in person.

philly cheese
I definitely saw a commercial for the 7 hydrogen car. I also looked it up here and they are actually producing it. I have no idea why, seeing that there are maybe two hydrogen stations in the country. My guess is that it is just a publicity stunt.
Click to expand...
Remember the governator's very early pledge to have a road with hydrogen equiped stations every 50 miles?

Early adopters. Someone has to start it. If there are no cars then there will be no stations.
 
ExigeExcel
If the steam was to come straight from the exhaust then I think it may travel higher in to the atmosphere then your usual puddle water.

But cooling it is certainly an option, untill the streets are covered in water. But sacrifices must be made and all that I suppose.
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Do keep in mind that CO2 is not the only thing to come out of exhaust pipes. Water vapor is another by-product of combusting fossil fuels.

FoolKiller
No, you're good. Liquid hydrogen is so light it will actually run UP a vertical surface. Seen it in person.
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That doesn't have to do with weight so much as density. It would provide unwanted lift for the car. Plus, while the effect would be minuscule, that is mass that would slow the car down on acceleration and cornering.

Remember the governator's very early pledge to have a road with hydrogen equiped stations every 50 miles?

Early adopters. Someone has to start it. If there are no cars then there will be no stations.[/quote]

I do not quite remember his pledge, but I guess that is a good start. The only question is when.

I guess a hydrogen infrastructure could grow in the same way our current petrol network did many years ago. Did that start with a filling station every so often and then they became more and more common? And there has to be more than one company providing the stations or else there woudl be no struggle to serve everybody and make a complete network.
 
More bad news for bio-diesel supporters!
The price of pasta in italy has gone up 27% in the last year because of it, so the italians protested by having a national day without pasta!
I think bio-diesel will die off in less than 5 years, well i hope so, cause i like pasta!
 
Are there that many biodiesel cars in Europe that the price of grain would go up that much? Are there other factors related to the price inflation?
 
philly cheese
Are there that many biodiesel cars in Europe that the price of grain would go up that much? Are there other factors related to the price inflation?
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There may be other smaller factors, i'm sure, but it is the main one.
Also even today i've heard the EU want to abolish a rule saying that 10% of a farmers land should be left fallow. So as they can plant more cereals to slow the rapidly spiralling costs.
This is far more serious than i thought even recently. I use to think that a 5% increase in the cost of farm derived food would be the max.
 
philly cheese
Are there that many biodiesel cars in Europe that the price of grain would go up that much? Are there other factors related to the price inflation?
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It's not diesel, it's the mixing of ethanol derived from crops in petrol. For example, Tesco 99RON petrol is 5% bio-ethanol, and many otehr companies are doing similair things with their petrol to appear more "green".
 
So is it reasonable to say that those 40% who voted for bio-diesel are wrong. Like you say that this price rise is when companies use only a small amount of ethonal in their oils, so whats going to happen prices if there is a large scale move towards bio-diesel.
Hydrogen all the way!! :sly:
 
Well yes and no.

The problem is, Farmers haven't commited to ethanol long term yet so for now they're just putting the odd field towards production of bio-ethanol crops, but it's been enough to disturb pasta prices. Ideally, bio-ethanol crops won't be replacing food crops in fields but having their own fields set aside but then that could effect livestock prices.
 
GT4 genius
So is it reasonable to say that those 40% who voted for bio-diesel are wrong. Like you say that this price rise is when companies use only a small amount of ethonal in their oils, so whats going to happen prices if there is a large scale move towards bio-diesel.
Hydrogen all the way!! :sly:
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Biodiesel is dependant on many factors. Look at Brazil, they are doing great, but they also have the perfect place for growing sugar cane, which has a higher ethanol yioeld with less growing space needed. Europe and the US are better for thinsg like grains, which can sap the soil and need more space, so the supply is more limited with a much higher demand. Unless technology can get around this it doesn't have a very big lifespan as people will find they pay more for everyday things than they save in fuel.
 
ExigeExcel
It's not diesel, it's the mixing of ethanol derived from crops in petrol. For example, Tesco 99RON petrol is 5% bio-ethanol, and many otehr companies are doing similair things with their petrol to appear more "green".
Click to expand...

Meh. Same difference.

ExigeExcel
Well yes and no.

The problem is, Farmers haven't commited to ethanol long term yet so for now they're just putting the odd field towards production of bio-ethanol crops, but it's been enough to disturb pasta prices. Ideally, bio-ethanol crops won't be replacing food crops in fields but having their own fields set aside but then that could effect livestock prices.
Click to expand...

In the long run, this isn't the issue. Competition for land between food and fuel crops would drive prices up for both.

And if the sale of fuel crops are more profitable, somebody may see a huge food shortage as farmers stop producing food crops
 
But the simple economics of it will dictate that there will never be a food shortage. As food prices rise, then food will eventually become more profitable and so production will change.

The greatest price problem will be winter time. In the UK fuel prices (Though generally diesel) tend to rise in cost due to the demand in heating oil. But this coupled with the fect there'll be less, possilly no, crops available this time of year could lead to extreme price fluctuations.
 
So therefore bio-fuels could lead to an even more volitile fuel market than the one we have!! I have never been a fan of bio-fuels, but now any doubts i had about there viability are definitly gone. Why are we wasting time developing these, why is F1 suggesting swicthing to bio-fuels, why are the worlds govts. encouraging us to develope them. The pollution benefits aren't that big anyway.
 
GT4 genius
So therefore bio-fuels could lead to an even more volitile fuel market than the one we have!! I have never been a fan of bio-fuels, but now any doubts i had about there viability are definitly gone. Why are we wasting time developing these, why is F1 suggesting swicthing to bio-fuels, why are the worlds govts. encouraging us to develope them. The pollution benefits aren't that big anyway.
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If we planned it right, we could probably set up a system where supplies could come from the southern hemisphere during winter and make really good use of available land to produce the extras we need. It would take investment but it can be done.

And the environmental benefit is that the net cost is zero. This is probably the most eco-friendly option we have because all others put way more CO2 into the system than they take out.
 
This idea will cost money and alot of time, and it wont solve air pollution problems in the cities. It may be just as easy to develope a hydrogen infrastructure. And remeber at best bio-diesel is only a transition fuel, so we would have to change from that aswel. So if we get a load of farmers in the south to feed us and then in a few years slow down our demand i doubt they'd be happy!
 
GT4 genius
This idea will cost money and alot of time, and it wont solve air pollution problems in the cities. It may be just as easy to develope a hydrogen infrastructure. And remeber at best bio-diesel is only a transition fuel, so we would have to change from that aswel. So if we get a load of farmers in the south to feed us and then in a few years slow down our demand i doubt they'd be happy!
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Yes. Biofuels should be a transition. About the farmers not being happy after demand slopes off, well, they should be glad that they got the spike in demand that they did. If you ask, I'm sure they would rather have a few years of boom then back to normal rather than normal the whole way.
 
philly cheese
Yes. Biofuels should be a transition. About the farmers not being happy after demand slopes off, well, they should be glad that they got the spike in demand that they did. If you ask, I'm sure they would rather have a few years of boom then back to normal rather than normal the whole way.
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Try and explain that to them when it slopes off. They'd demand some form of subsidy.
 
GT4 genius
Try and explain that to them when it slopes off. They'd demand some form of subsidy.
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I know they wouldn't be too happy, but it would be the end of a boom, which is much more tolerable than the beginning of a bust.

And it probably wouldn't be a sudden change, it would probably take a decade or two to implement a hydrogen economy so the ethanol market would slowly shrink. Farmers would have time to adjust.
 
That article brings up a really good point about Hydrogen that I almost forgot: Hydrogen is NOT an energy source. Consider it a battery. Basically, we "put energy into it," meaning we use energy to isolate the hydrogen, and then we get most of that back out through combustion or whatever. That is what makes it so different from what we currently use.
 
philly cheese
That article brings up a really good point about Hydrogen that I almost forgot: Hydrogen is NOT an energy source. Consider it a battery. Basically, we "put energy into it," meaning we use energy to isolate the hydrogen, and then we get most of that back out through combustion or whatever. That is what makes it so different from what we currently use.
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That's different than refining petroleum, bio-mass, etc how?

To get hydrogen we are basically refining something like water to pull out the hydrogen. We put energy in to get hydrogen out.

What comes out of the ground is not gasoline, but petroleum, which we have to put energy into to refine into gasoline (as well as other bits) for our cars.

I don't see where the huge difference is.
 
philly cheese
That article brings up a really good point about Hydrogen that I almost forgot: Hydrogen is NOT an energy source. Consider it a battery. Basically, we "put energy into it," meaning we use energy to isolate the hydrogen, and then we get most of that back out through combustion or whatever. That is what makes it so different from what we currently use.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone here forgot that Hydrogen is merely an energy carrier. Hell, the discussion over how to power the production of Hydrogen has been goin on throughout so if you've forgotten that then I suggest you get a DS and Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training.
 
FoolKiller
That's different than refining petroleum, bio-mass, etc how?

To get hydrogen we are basically refining something like water to pull out the hydrogen. We put energy in to get hydrogen out.

What comes out of the ground is not gasoline, but petroleum, which we have to put energy into to refine into gasoline (as well as other bits) for our cars.

I don't see where the huge difference is.
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The difference is that the water itself that we use to get the hydrogen from does not contain any energy itself. We put energy into it to use later, making it an energy carrier. The oil we get out of the ground contains energy, making it an energy source. True, we use energy to refine it, but we get more energy out than we put into it, do we not?

ExigeExcel
I don't think anyone here forgot that Hydrogen is merely an energy carrier. Hell, the discussion over how to power the production of Hydrogen has been goin on throughout so if you've forgotten that then I suggest you get a DS and Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training.
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Which I guess makes this:

me
That article brings up a really good point about Hydrogen that I almost forgot: Hydrogen is NOT an energy source. Consider it a battery. Basically, we "put energy into it," meaning we use energy to isolate the hydrogen, and then we get most of that back out through combustion or whatever. That is what makes it so different from what we currently use.
Click to expand...

A fairly useless point here. Sorry.
 
philly cheese
The difference is that the water itself that we use to get the hydrogen from does not contain any energy itself. We put energy into it to use later, making it an energy carrier. The oil we get out of the ground contains energy, making it an energy source. True, we use energy to refine it, but we get more energy out than we put into it, do we not?
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My initial reaction is to say that we don't get more out than we put in, but that it is the most efficient we have to date. But I don't know for sure.

I would say after drilling, pumping, shipping, refining, shipping, pumping, and driving then probably no.

As for water not containing energy itself (hold your comments for my last paragraph, because I do agree with you): the fact that it is water shows that it has heat energy of some form and that the molecules are active enough to prevent it from remaining in a solid state (ice). As for its potential useable energy, well that is all in movement. In a lake the potential useable energy is dependent on how we can heat it or extract hydrogen. Niagra falls or a large river on the other hand has a ton of potentially useable energy with no form of refining.

Considering that water and petroleum are completely different chemicals their energy useage/containment has to be looked at differently.

But for the purposes of this situation, no water does not have any useable energy (maybe a steam engine) until you extract its base elements. Thus, for automotive means it works more like a battery than a source. I think I was looking at it as too big of a picture.
 
FoolKiller
My initial reaction is to say that we don't get more out than we put in, but that it is the most efficient we have to date. But I don't know for sure.

I would say after drilling, pumping, shipping, refining, shipping, pumping, and driving then probably no.
Click to expand...

If we can run a country using only the oil and coal we get out of the ground, I would assume get get more energy out than we put into it. True, it could be more efficient, but we get more out of oil burning it for power, heat and cars than we put into refining. Otherwise we probably wouldn't use it so much. And how would we have lasted decades ago when fossil fuels were our only source of energy?

But for the purposes of this situation, no water does not have any useable energy (maybe a steam engine) until you extract its base elements. Thus, for automotive means it works more like a battery than a source. I think I was looking at it as too big of a picture.
Click to expand...

OK. Now I get what you were saying earlier.
 
If we extracted the hydrogen from water then yes ofcourse it is only a power store, because we split the H2 from the O so as we can make them react together later ie in a combustion engine, and dont forget energy can niether be created or destroyed. However maybe, i'm not sure though, if we extracted hydrogen from other sources the later reaction with oxygen may release greater energy than was used to isolate it or extract it from the original source.
 

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