Problem Solved: 60" 1080p Plasma!!!

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Pako

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GTP-Pako
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Thanks Sony and PD for my latest G.A.S. of a 1920x1080 HDTV. My current 60" rear projection Sony is a great TV and have gotten over 4 years of enjoyment out of it but at only 1080i, I feel like I'm really missing out. Also being older LCD technology, the blacks are almost gray with a milky film on the display. HD content looks great, but still... the depth of picture could be greatly improved.

Yesterday, against my better judgment, I went down the Best Buy just to see what was in stock. Of course it's the most expensive TV's that catch my eye. The first one was a 58" Panasonic TH-58PZ700U 1080p Plasma, and the second a 60" Pioneer PDP-6010FD 1080p Plasma. The Panasonic looked great but amazingly enough, looked more than just 2 inches smaller than my current 60". The Pioneer on the other hand was nothing short of jaw dropping. Both sets looked great, but the Pioneer seemed to be in a totally different league.

Both sets have a 1920x1080 native resolution, both have hookups for analog, composite, component, HDMI, as well as VGA inputs for PC based media applications.

Burn in or Image retention are a couple of major concerns of mine as I plan on using this TV for movies, games, and PC media operation. Both sets have a 'Game' mode to help the buyer feel confident that the set can be used for gaming without fear, but I have read enough user reviews to be concerned dropping this amount of cash on a possible permanent etch a sketch. Even with the 'Game' mode, burn-in images are not covered under warranty. *odd*

So, should I compromise image quality and go the safe route of a LCD/DLP where I don't have to worry about burn-in or IR, or should I take my chances so I can gloat at the incredible picture of the Plasma? Are there LCD/DLP's I should consider with a comparable picture? If the plasma is the way to go, which one (leaning towards the Pioneer)?

Waiting for new technology on the horizon seems silly to me as I will be forever waiting, so current models available today should suffice.
 
Take what you will form this, but retailers always (or at least almost always) make the more expensive TV look better. That said, according to Consumer Reports, the Panasonic is rated #1 and the Pioneer is #3 and costs more. Granted we're talking about a difference of 1 point (on a scale of 100), but one point for lower for $1500 more? I think I'll pass, thanks.

As for non-Plasma, the only one larger than 52" on CR is the Toshiba Cinema Series REGZA 57LX177 with a score of 76 and a price tag of over $6000. Ouch.
 
For the record, I would never buy a TV from Best Buy. They are the most expensive store on the planet for these TV's. I have a Vann's (www.vanns.com) right here in town where I can save roughly $1700 on the Pioneer. I'm not saying I've made up my mind, but I'm just saying.... :)
 
Open up a menu on the TV at Best Buy and come back the next day. But I bet the TVs are programmed to turn the menu off after a certain time.

You should try to change the settings on the sets to something more usable for daily use, since they are probably jacked-up.
 
Any other suggestions? Since the post, I was able to find a Pioneer from a local for $4500 with full warranty. That's 2,000 down from Worst Buy. I actually stopped by there this afternoon, and they would match the local price, but they don't have any in stock while they are on back order. I am seeing them on back order all over the place. It seems Pioneer is ramping up for their new line coming out this summer/fall.

I'm so tempted to pull the trigger on this one....I'm able to get $1,000 on my current TV to help off set the cost.

Any other suggestions? I looked at the Panasonic again....great set but what I can get it locally, right now the Pioneer looks to be the better choice.
 
"Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in."
-Michael Corleone


Thanks Sony and PD for my latest G.A.S. of a 1920x1080 HDTV. My current 60" rear projection Sony is a great TV and have gotten over 4 years of enjoyment out of it but at only 1080i, I feel like I'm really missing out. Also being older LCD technology, the blacks are almost gray with a milky film on the display. HD content looks great, but still... the depth of picture could be greatly improved.

Its hard to tell from the description, but it sounds like you have or had a 720p LCD RPTV, but were feeding it 1080i signals? If so, the first thing I would recommend is to make sure you don't do that, and feed it 720p signals instead. There are several reasons for this.

The first reason is that there is rarely any benefit in feeding a display a higher resolution signal than the display’s native resolution.

The next reason not to do that is because there are usually many bad things that can and do happen when you do that. The reason for this is the TV wont be able to display the signal without first scaling it down to match the resolution of the TV and doing so, depending on the quality of the signal and the video processor used to do the scaling, may degrade the image quality.

For instance, four years ago, less than 25% of all popular HDTVs performed accurate deinterlacing when fed an interlaced signal (480i, 1080i, etc). Proper deinterlacing is a complicated and multi-step process, and when done incorrectly can severely degrade the quality of the original image. Even today, many HDTVs, even 1080p HDTVs do not perform accurate deinterlacing, even when the manufacturers claim they can... because technically speaking they can... they just do a really lousy job of it and thus the owners of those models are left with below average quality images from interlaced sources.

While this may or may not be an issue you are having, many people mistake or are mislead into believing that when they read in the specs, or are told by a salesperson that their 720p TV "supports" 1080i, they are left with the belief that means their TV will display 1920x1080 images, when in fact all it means is the processor in the TV can "accept" a 1080i signal, but then it scales it down to match the native resolution of the TV... and this is where problems can and often do arise, especially with 1080i signals as they not only have to be scaled, but also have to be deinterlaced (except for those with CRT HDTVs... but that's another story, for another time) :)

This is also why for many people, depending on the model of HDTV they own, will discover that 720p looks better than 1080i, even on 1080p TVs. In fact, even with a display that can accurately deinterlace an image, if the original interlaced signal was not properly flagged, as often is the case, then the individual interlaced fields can’t be properly matched up... resulting in a loss of vertical resolution.


Of course, all of this may be useless info, especially if you are buying a new display. :)

Yesterday, against my better judgment, I went down the Best Buy just to see what was in stock. Of course it's the most expensive TV's that catch my eye. The first one was a 58" Panasonic TH-58PZ700U 1080p Plasma, and the second a 60" Pioneer PDP-6010FD 1080p Plasma. The Panasonic looked great but amazingly enough, looked more than just 2 inches smaller than my current 60". The Pioneer on the other hand was nothing short of jaw dropping. Both sets looked great, but the Pioneer seemed to be in a totally different league.

Both sets have a 1920x1080 native resolution, both have hookups for analog, composite, component, HDMI, as well as VGA inputs for PC based media applications.

Burn in or Image retention are a couple of major concerns of mine as I plan on using this TV for movies, games, and PC media operation. Both sets have a 'Game' mode to help the buyer feel confident that the set can be used for gaming without fear, but I have read enough user reviews to be concerned dropping this amount of cash on a possible permanent etch a sketch. Even with the 'Game' mode, burn-in images are not covered under warranty. *odd*

So, should I compromise image quality and go the safe route of a LCD/DLP where I don't have to worry about burn-in or IR, or should I take my chances so I can gloat at the incredible picture of the Plasma? Are there LCD/DLP's I should consider with a comparable picture? If the plasma is the way to go, which one (leaning towards the Pioneer)?

I'm not normally a fan of Plasmas, an opinion I have shared and explained the many reasons why in this forums Electronics & Home Theater area.

Some of the problems I have with Plasmas in general are:

The poor color accuracy of most plasmas (they generally have a green push, which simply can’t be accurately calibrated without sacrificing accurate reds and blues).

Larger, thus more noticeable pixel grid lines (often referred to as screen door, as the cross pattern of the grid is reminiscent of looking through a screen door). Most LCDs suffer from this as well, while most newer DLPs and LCoS displays have practically no screen door at all.

Burn-in issues. Like CRTs, Plasmas use phosphors, and as such, depending on the images displayed and proper use, can permanently damage the display. Rather than go into the finer detail on what causes this type of burn-in, for those interested I'd recommend starting of by reading through the wiki listing for Phosphor Burn-in, and for more detailed explanations, reading some of the referenced sources.

BTW: While it is true that most plasma models offer features that can help prevent burn-in, most of these features have a negative impact on the image quality... especially ones that simply stretch the image to fill the screen, or zoom and crop the image... and these techniques still wont protect you from the worst kind of burn-in and that's from static images... as often found in many video games... like your score, or anything that is bright, and constantly displayed on the screen in the same localized area... which a game like GT5:Prologue has a lot of static images during gameplay.

The highly reflective glass screens, such that you can see everything in the room reflected onto the screen while watching anything except for when images that are very bright and white are displayed... I personally find it very distracting. Although now many Plasma models are coming out with similar anti-reflective plastic screens similar to those used by LCD TVs... which also makes them much lighter... although these screens can have a negative impact on the image quality in terms of "softness" and black levels.


OK... now here's the good news.

Of all the plasmas I've ever tested and or done video shoot outs with, the ones from Panasonic and Pioneer (more specifically, the Pro Series from Panasonic and the Elite Series from Pioneer) where all exceptional displays! 👍👍

Yes, they are still just as vulnerable to burn-in as any other display (don't believe the manufacturers hype on this issue... there is no magic feature that prevents this without having a negative impact on the image), and yes, they have highly reflective glass screens so you'll be seeing yourself in a lot of the stuff you watch. :D

However, their video processors are top notch, as is their superb build quality. Like most Plasmas, they have a superior black level (thanks to the use of phosphors, unlike LCD which requires a back light... although LED backlights may help improve black levels for LCD displays, just as they have with DLP RPTVs, like those used by Samsung's latest RPTVs).

However, these plasmas from Panasonic and Pioneer not only are few and far between, but they also come at a hefty price, certainly compared to displays of the same size and resolution.


Waiting for new technology on the horizon seems silly to me as I will be forever waiting, so current models available today should suffice.

So very true, and something we have all learned from buying computers. If you always waited to buy because you knew something better was going to come out next year, you'd never have a computer.


I will say this; if the primary use is for gaming, then I would strongly recommend you avoid Plasmas... there are just too many ways for things to go bad down the road. Yes, there are exceptions, and depending on each person's needs, requirements, and uses, a plasma TV may very well be a good choice.

Personally though, if you can spare the space, I'd highly recommend the new 1080p DLP RPTVs from Samsung that use their new LED light engines. They offer superb image quality, excellent video processing, easy to calibrate, and feature HDMI v1.3 which very few displays do, and with the PS3 will support a significantly wider color gamut (billions versus millions). While I have yet to check it out first hand, their latest 61" model, HL61A750A has been wowing the critics, and can be bought for around $2,000. You can still buy their previous LED model, HLT6187S, (feels odd to call it "previous" when it came out only four months ago... but that's technology for you!) but I suspect you may have trouble finding it for less than $1,500 and frankly from what I have heard, the HL61A750A is worth the extra amount... that said, I have logged several hours tinkering around with and calibrating a HLT6187S, and while certainly not perfect, its far better than most displays I've had the pleasure of testing. 👍


Now if space is an issue, then there are still some very good LCD direct view models to choose from. It's hard to go wrong with most LCD HDTVs from the "Three S's" (Samsung, Sharp, and Sony).


Oh, and before I go, HDMI > VGA > Component > S-Video > Composite

Also, unlike analog video such as component, there are not significant differences that impact image quality between HDMI cable that costs less than $1 per foot like that sold at www.monoprice.com and the HDMI cable regularly selling at places like Best Buy that cost as much as $100 for a 12' run.

What ever you end up getting, I'm sure you'll love it, as it's hard to find lousy TVs these days as long as you do a little research first. Have fun with your new TV and all it's 1080p glory! 👍


OK... now back to the Bat Cave for me!

;)
 
There is some excellent info in this thread. I will certainly look at some of the new Samsung DLP's. My first Samsung, HD experience left a pretty bad taste in my mouth so I have avoided Sammy displays at all costs, but I know that companys have good products, then they have their bad products. My first Samsung HD actually upset me enough that only my current 60" Sony made it all better. :)

I'll be sure to report my decision.

:cheers:
 
Congrats on the purchase!

I know from a bit of experience that Pioneer displays, especially the Plasma ones, are fantastic quality and are very reliable, so I'm sure you'll be happy with it. 👍
 
G.T
Congrats on the purchase!

I know from a bit of experience that Pioneer displays, especially the Plasma ones, are fantastic quality and are very reliable, so I'm sure you'll be happy with it. 👍

👍 That helps! Not having the set, but seeing the debt, I have a bit of buyers remorse. I'm sure I'll get past all that soon enough. :)
 
👍 That helps! Not having the set, but seeing the debt, I have a bit of buyers remorse. I'm sure I'll get past all that soon enough. :)
Yeah, I'm sure you will. My parents, especially my Dad, had the same feeling when he spent £5000 on a Pioneer plasma over 4 years ago. It's still going strong today and appreciates the extra detail it gives when playing Blu-ray movies or games.

Of course he wants a 1080p display now, but it gives an idea of how long the 720p Plasma has lasted. :)
 
Oh, it even gets worse, but I'll wait until next week when I do a full review of ALL the components. :sly:
 
Well, just got of the phone. Apparently the TV didn't get on the truck this week so at best I'm looking at delivery on Tuesday, but more likely it will be a week from today. :mad:

Oh well...hope it's worth the wait.
 
:indiff: Probably too damn heavy for them to move! Hope it's worth the weight!

Me to... :nervous:




Well to add to the upgrade (which I knew was inevitable) here is the Pioneer VSX-94TXH.




Specs from website:
Power
Amplifier Design Direct Energy
Surround Power 140 Watts x 7 (20Hz - 20 kHz, 8 ohms, .09% THD)
Stereo Power 140 Watts x 2 (20Hz - 20 kHz, 8 ohms, .09% THD)
Symmetrical Power Train Design
Audio Processing
Digital Engine 3rd Gen. SHARC + 48-Bit Freescale DSP
Air Studios TMTuning
Room Calibration Advanced MCACC 9-band EQ
Phase Control Full-Band
Standing Wave Control
Sound Retriever
Front Stage Surround Advanced
Advanced Surround Modes (15+1) Modes
THX Select2
LPCM Multi-Channel
Dolby True HD
Dolby Digital Plus
DTS-HD Master Audio
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio
DTS Express
Dolby(R) Digital EX
DTS-ES
Dolby(R) Digital 5.1
DTS 96/24
DTS(R) 5.1
DTS NEO: 6
Dolby Pro-Logic IIx
iPod Music
Neural-THX Surround Decoder
Neural Surround for XM-HD
WMA-9 Pro Decoder
HDMI SACD Transfer
HDMI DVD-Audio Transfer
X-Curve Compensation
Digital Noise Reduction
Virtual Surround Back
Headphone Surround
Dialog Enhancement
Midnight Listening
Loudness
Auto Signal Select
Stream Direct
Analog to Digital Conversion 96 Khz / 24-Bit
Digital Analog Conversion (DAC) 192 kHz / 24-Bit
Video Processing
Digital Video Converter - HDMI
Pioneer Video Conversion - Component
Video Parameter Adjustment
HDMI 1080P Video Transfer
Video Up-Scaling To 1080p (Faroudja DCDi)
iPod Photo and Video
Convenience
On-Screen Display Yes
FL Dimmer
Function Rename
Remote LCD Glow-Key Learning
Multi-Zone 3 Zone
Sleep Timer
Multi Operation
Advanced MCACC Graphic PC Output
Amplifier Assign
Connectivity
HDMITM Inputs 4 (HDMI 1.3a)
HDMI Output 1
Component Video Input 3
Component Video Outputs 1
S-Video Input 6
S-Video Outputs 2
Composite Video Input 7
Composite Video Output 2
iPOD Interface w/cable
USB Memory Input
Ethernet Input Home Media - Audio & Internet Rdio
XM (R)Ready
Sirius Satellite Ready
Analog Audio Inputs 10
Analog Audio Outputs 3
Phono Input
Digital Inputs 7
Optical In 5
Coaxial In 2
Optical Digital Outputs 2
Multi-Channel Input 7.1
Audio Pre-Output 7.1
Headphone Output
Multi-Room and Source Output 3 Zones
12 Volt Trigger (Device Assignable) 2 - Main Room or Zone 2 or Zone 3
Front A/V Inputs
RS-232C
AC Outlet
System Remote Plus (SR+) Port
IR In/Out
Construction
Front Panel Aluminum / Urushi
Transformer Stabilizer
3-D Space Frame Design
Direct Construction
Heavy Duty Speaker Terminals
Warranty
Warranty Elite 2 Year Warranty
Dimensions
Dimensions (inches) 16 9/16 x 7 3/8 x 18 1/16 inches (WxHxD)​
Weight 41.14 lbs.


Some of the main selling points for me are the 1080p upscaling for all video inputs. The other key features are most audio tracks presented by BluRay movies including DTS and Dolby HD Audio channels. My Denon could not decode the HD audio signals so I didn't have true discrete audio. Given the 7.1 system I have installed, I couldn't allow this low-fi existence to occur any longer.
 

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I've never even heard of neural THX. Does it just plug into your skull? :P
 
Pako, congrats on the new display & AVR, both excellent pieces of kit! 👍

I can't wait to hear your reaction when you change the audio output settings on your PS3 to lossless PCM 7.1 and change the Dynamic Range setting in the audio settings in GT5P to "Large Theater"... it's breath taking how immersive the sound qulity is in that game... much better than the lossy Dolby Digital 2.0 or even 5.1 channel output with the "Living Room" setting.
 
Wow that Pioneer unit is something else :eek:... is it even possible for someone to fill all those ports! :lol:

Congrats Pako 👍

Oh and good to see you round again D-N, hasn't been the same without you..👍

Robin
 
On the subject of amps, particularly Pioneer after seeing Pako's new toy check out my amp! :dopey:

The SA-608.... 1979-1981 of vintage amplification goodness :sly: looks like an aircraft cockpit and has a retro 'Plasma Flouroscan' visual output WOOT! :crazy:

Pioneer%20SA%20608%20copy.jpg


(pic off the net BTW)

May not be the beast Pionneer are offering today but back in the day this was top stuff with all the latest technology like dual tape deck management! :sly:

Robin
 
DUDE......:drool:

Too many inputs to plug it in....O_O

What are the other inputs gonna be used for?

PS3
360
Wii
HTPC
HD-DVR 722
iPod
Studio Audio Feed

That's it for now. Used to have dedicated CD and DVD players, VHS, Tape and Phono player, but not so much any more. I have more than enough to do what I need. The Wii is the only component now that will use the analog inputs, everything else will be digital.

TB
I've never even heard of neural THX. Does it just plug into your skull? :P

It's streaming surround music available from the net via the RJ-45 input. It sounds pretty cool but the selection is limited.

Pako, congrats on the new display & AVR, both excellent pieces of kit! 👍

I can't wait to hear your reaction when you change the audio output settings on your PS3 to lossless PCM 7.1 and change the Dynamic Range setting in the audio settings in GT5P to "Large Theater"... it's breath taking how immersive the sound qulity is in that game... much better than the lossy Dolby Digital 2.0 or even 5.1 channel output with the "Living Room" setting.

:D It's unreal. Absolutely love it. At first I thought is sounded thin as a result of the auto tune feature with the mic, but after I re-calibrated and adjust to taste, the sound quality surpasses the Denon. Love the clarity and depth (dynamic range) of the music and sound now.


On the subject of amps, particularly Pioneer after seeing Pako's new toy check out my amp! :dopey:

The SA-608.... 1979-1981 of vintage amplification goodness :sly: looks like an aircraft cockpit and has a retro 'Plasma Flouroscan' visual output WOOT! :crazy:

Pioneer%20SA%20608%20copy.jpg


(pic off the net BTW)

May not be the beast Pionneer are offering today but back in the day this was top stuff with all the latest technology like dual tape deck management! :sly:

Robin

Very cool. Those components look bullet proof. 👍 I've been in and out of Pioneer for the past 20 years. They've had their good and bad to say the least.
 
What can I say. The TV came today. A quick hookup and I was experiencing full 1080P blu-ray bliss in 7.1 PCM audio. Incredible. Full review to come.
 
Here some pictures taken of the TV. I'm pleasantly surprised how well the pics turned out actually.

gt5onpioneer02mp7.jpg
gt5onpioneer04ay0.jpg
gt5onpioneer03nv2.jpg
gt5onpioneer09mg6.jpg
gt5onpioneer06mw3.jpg
gt5onpioneer05xb8.jpg
gt5onpioneer10uo0.jpg


I've been going nuts watching Blu-rays. All I know is that looking at reality doesn't look as clear as it should.

I haven't really dove into the options but I got a good calibration for movies and enjoy some of the default settings that the TV has to offer. I have no complaints about this TV yet. The picture quality is a 10/10 as far as I'm concerned now that I have it calibrated fairly well. I am now seeing details that I haven't seen before in material that's I'm familiar with.

The only complaint I have is that I can see the compression in the Dish Satellite HD programming now. I'll have to create a custom profile just for Dish HD programming to soften the image so the flaw of the Dish HD compression isn't as visible.
 
Updated Pics of the setup.





My only improvement that I may tackle down the road is to wall mount the 142lb behemoth into the concrete wall. Still undecided.
 
If you wall-mounted it, wouldn't your viewing angle be obstructed by your shelving? Also, lol at the black levels on your smaller monitor on the right.
 
If you wall-mounted it, wouldn't your viewing angle be obstructed by your shelving? Also, lol at the black levels on your smaller monitor on the right.

Good point on the viewing angle. With the current shelving, wall mounting is out of the question.

:lol: black level on the LCD really isn't that bad in real life, but it does give a good comparison of LCD vs. Plasma in this case.
 
Wow Pako, that looks insane. Glad to see you rockin' OS X too. :D

I don't recall seeing you post what speakers you have. Care to enlighten me?
 
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