Philly is looking at new cars. Plans change. Mom and dad are looking now.
- Thread starter Philly
- 87 comments
- 8,263 views
- 358
- Penthouse
Please do. 👍
Can't help you with your mom's opinion though. You'll just have to convince her a Bimmer will help you pick up nice classy girls instead of the trashy sluts that usually go for the imports.(of course we know you'll be picking up the trashy sluts anyway.. I mean who wouldn't?
)
Danoff
Premium
- 34,043
- Mile High City
I have an '03 Type-S, and I have a lot of fun with it. Put sticky tires on it and it will love the twisties. (btw - I've driven it in the snow).
The car has a duality to it that I find appealing at times, and annoying at others. At low rpm (anything below 4k), the car drives very calmly and behaves well on a commute. Above 4k it wakes up fast and gets angry. This is nice for a daily driver that you want to be able to have fun with when the opportunity arises.
That being said I don't particularly enjoy the lack of low-end power. But it doesn't bother me much. As far as compromises go, the car does a very good job.
Give one a spin and I think you'll find that it's a fun little car that's visually appealing and at a reasonable price. A few things to look for when you're test-driving:
- Notchy shifting (the shifters on these things doesn't exactly seem to be bullet-proof)
- Notice the lack of arm rest
- Notice the lack of rear visibility
- Contoured seats are great as long as you're looking forward
If you decide to buy the car (which certainly seems reasonable), attach convex mirrors to your side rearviews so that your blind spots go away, put some good tires on it, and take it out to a windy road to wear the tires out.
- 19,699
- Alabamamania
I'll weigh in on the Lexus IS 300:
I did have one as a loaner car for a week, and I've driven it many times, seen many come into the dealership, and blah blah blah.
The handling is really tight, you can shut off the VSC (traction control), and it handles just like a 3-series. I've driven them back-to-back, and there's no real difference, in my opinion. (Unfortunately, I haven't really done so on a bona-fide racetrack.) The steering has real feeling to it, unlike every other Lexus. The seats are grippy, and there's four doors, with rear seats that aren't a chore for adults to sit in. They all have the 220hp inline-6 motor, and some are available in 5-speed manuals (2002-2005). No paddle shifters on the autos (not until 2006+), although they had that E-shift that rarely anyone used, because the buttons were too small.
A small handful of IS 300s with 16" wheels, cloth interiors, standard seats, and no sunroof are also available. The handling is sluggish on the 16" wheels, although you get far more tire life in return (see below).
The motors are reliable, and easy to maintain. Spark plug replacement's tricky, since the intake and plenum have to be removed to get inside. The one fault is that it is difficult to tune, when wedged inside the IS. There's not much room for a 2JZ-GTE (inline-6 twin-turbo) swap without a lot of modifications, since the engine is crammed into the front end. It's not impossible, but consult an team of experts. There's a lot of other aftermarket stuff for it. If that's not your thing, then it's no big deal.
Known issues: Oxygen sensors if the car was not using 91+ octane; basically, Toyota's Achilles' Heel, except it's generally not much trouble (nor even noticeable) unless two of them go south. Don't spray too much water into the engine bay, or you may get a little water into the engine cover, and into the spark plug chamber. Early 2001-03 models would run afoul of this occasionally from detailers.
The tires aren't cheap on this car, and you will only get 12,000-15,000 from spirited driving. Heavy leadfoots get even less, mostly because the inner edges will go bald much faster than the outer sidewall crowns. Any decent tire for this car (V-rated and above) is directional, so forget about trying to "invert the tires" to gain tire life. It's possible if you're fanatical about it, and you get the right sort of tires, but unless you have the ability to break down tires off their rims every 3000 miles or so, it's not worth the trouble. The camber is not very adjustable, so you can't really tweak it much to prevent this situation; inverting tires only makes it a little harder to center the car at higher speeds. The only solution is getting a sweet deal on tires.
2001 models had a few silly recall issues that have probably all been fixed at the dealer; underbody panels, suspension pieces, a tire recall (see above). The 2001 year also saw a few faulty transmission control units (automatics, of course) that caused rare hiccups between 3rd-4th and 4th-5th gear at highway speeds; some could be "re-flashed" at the dealer, others could not (replacement).
A/C power servo-motors tend to make incessant clicking noises at around 40,000-80,000 miles. It's a 2.2-hour job and a $150.00 part at the dealer, as I recall. Some people live with the noise, others can't stand it. It rarely affects the A/C performance, although a few people had temperature (coldest setting only) or vent issues (stuck in one directional blowing mode) to go with that.
Clutches are not cheap on this car; Lexus recommends a new flywheel, even though most techs disagreed with that practice. So don't take it to the dealer unless you have $2500-3000 for a new clutch. I saw a few clutch issues on the IS, and they were all at around 30,000 miles or so, but they were all young owners as well. The over-35 crowd would have over 100,000 miles on the same clutch, with no problems. Go figure...
Interior trim is a shade less fancy than most Lexuses, but mostly top notch, if cared for. Some surfaces scratch-up easily, like switch bezels, since Toyota experimented with painted surfaces for a "high-tech" look with this model. I think the faux-F1 interior is kind of cool looking, but it polarized some people. The one thing that bugs me that some owners felt the need to put that crappy adhesive wood/carbon-fiber trim all over the car, and it looks terribly mis-matched on every interior surface of the car, especially since it peels away and fades after 3 years, making it look like a worn-out 3M test subject.
Lexus leather is a sore spot with me; it requires tender loving care, and it typically isn't the same quality or tactile feel of the German and British-car leather. Most 1st-gen IS 300s have a perforated sport-cloth/pseudo-suede with leather inserts that don't have this problem.
Stock CD players were nuisances on this car; it was the first Lexus model to feature the in-dash 6-disk players (from Panasonic/Pioneer). They would get hot, overheat, and occasionally fail to play burned disks, but much of this was actually caused by owners that put home-burnt CDs with sticker labels on them! Some cars can get away with this, but these radios will die if you try it: Use a Sharpie.
Avoid clouting a curb with the front end; control arms are hideously expensive, you might as well file an insurance claim, because you'll be out $1200-1500 in repairs easily with a decent enough strike. Look for missing splashguards and fender-well trim to tell how much abuse it's received from the owner and shady repair shops.
Yes, that chrome-like shifter knob is very hot in the summer time. Close the sun roof cover when parked!
Exterior fit and finish is top-notch, no complaints there, although some cars had deck lid lip spoilers installed at the factory, others did not. Take a close look, because any of the aftermarket ones are naturally suspect.
There's lots of older owners that bought this car, although you're more likely to get an automatic that way. The bonus is that the car was likely taken care of and is low-mileage.
I did have one as a loaner car for a week, and I've driven it many times, seen many come into the dealership, and blah blah blah.
The handling is really tight, you can shut off the VSC (traction control), and it handles just like a 3-series. I've driven them back-to-back, and there's no real difference, in my opinion. (Unfortunately, I haven't really done so on a bona-fide racetrack.) The steering has real feeling to it, unlike every other Lexus. The seats are grippy, and there's four doors, with rear seats that aren't a chore for adults to sit in. They all have the 220hp inline-6 motor, and some are available in 5-speed manuals (2002-2005). No paddle shifters on the autos (not until 2006+), although they had that E-shift that rarely anyone used, because the buttons were too small.
A small handful of IS 300s with 16" wheels, cloth interiors, standard seats, and no sunroof are also available. The handling is sluggish on the 16" wheels, although you get far more tire life in return (see below).
The motors are reliable, and easy to maintain. Spark plug replacement's tricky, since the intake and plenum have to be removed to get inside. The one fault is that it is difficult to tune, when wedged inside the IS. There's not much room for a 2JZ-GTE (inline-6 twin-turbo) swap without a lot of modifications, since the engine is crammed into the front end. It's not impossible, but consult an team of experts. There's a lot of other aftermarket stuff for it. If that's not your thing, then it's no big deal.
Known issues: Oxygen sensors if the car was not using 91+ octane; basically, Toyota's Achilles' Heel, except it's generally not much trouble (nor even noticeable) unless two of them go south. Don't spray too much water into the engine bay, or you may get a little water into the engine cover, and into the spark plug chamber. Early 2001-03 models would run afoul of this occasionally from detailers.
The tires aren't cheap on this car, and you will only get 12,000-15,000 from spirited driving. Heavy leadfoots get even less, mostly because the inner edges will go bald much faster than the outer sidewall crowns. Any decent tire for this car (V-rated and above) is directional, so forget about trying to "invert the tires" to gain tire life. It's possible if you're fanatical about it, and you get the right sort of tires, but unless you have the ability to break down tires off their rims every 3000 miles or so, it's not worth the trouble. The camber is not very adjustable, so you can't really tweak it much to prevent this situation; inverting tires only makes it a little harder to center the car at higher speeds. The only solution is getting a sweet deal on tires.
2001 models had a few silly recall issues that have probably all been fixed at the dealer; underbody panels, suspension pieces, a tire recall (see above). The 2001 year also saw a few faulty transmission control units (automatics, of course) that caused rare hiccups between 3rd-4th and 4th-5th gear at highway speeds; some could be "re-flashed" at the dealer, others could not (replacement).
A/C power servo-motors tend to make incessant clicking noises at around 40,000-80,000 miles. It's a 2.2-hour job and a $150.00 part at the dealer, as I recall. Some people live with the noise, others can't stand it. It rarely affects the A/C performance, although a few people had temperature (coldest setting only) or vent issues (stuck in one directional blowing mode) to go with that.
Clutches are not cheap on this car; Lexus recommends a new flywheel, even though most techs disagreed with that practice. So don't take it to the dealer unless you have $2500-3000 for a new clutch. I saw a few clutch issues on the IS, and they were all at around 30,000 miles or so, but they were all young owners as well. The over-35 crowd would have over 100,000 miles on the same clutch, with no problems. Go figure...
Interior trim is a shade less fancy than most Lexuses, but mostly top notch, if cared for. Some surfaces scratch-up easily, like switch bezels, since Toyota experimented with painted surfaces for a "high-tech" look with this model. I think the faux-F1 interior is kind of cool looking, but it polarized some people. The one thing that bugs me that some owners felt the need to put that crappy adhesive wood/carbon-fiber trim all over the car, and it looks terribly mis-matched on every interior surface of the car, especially since it peels away and fades after 3 years, making it look like a worn-out 3M test subject.
Lexus leather is a sore spot with me; it requires tender loving care, and it typically isn't the same quality or tactile feel of the German and British-car leather. Most 1st-gen IS 300s have a perforated sport-cloth/pseudo-suede with leather inserts that don't have this problem.
Stock CD players were nuisances on this car; it was the first Lexus model to feature the in-dash 6-disk players (from Panasonic/Pioneer). They would get hot, overheat, and occasionally fail to play burned disks, but much of this was actually caused by owners that put home-burnt CDs with sticker labels on them! Some cars can get away with this, but these radios will die if you try it: Use a Sharpie.
Avoid clouting a curb with the front end; control arms are hideously expensive, you might as well file an insurance claim, because you'll be out $1200-1500 in repairs easily with a decent enough strike. Look for missing splashguards and fender-well trim to tell how much abuse it's received from the owner and shady repair shops.
Yes, that chrome-like shifter knob is very hot in the summer time. Close the sun roof cover when parked!
Exterior fit and finish is top-notch, no complaints there, although some cars had deck lid lip spoilers installed at the factory, others did not. Take a close look, because any of the aftermarket ones are naturally suspect.
There's lots of older owners that bought this car, although you're more likely to get an automatic that way. The bonus is that the car was likely taken care of and is low-mileage.
Last edited:
- 7,666
I'll try and avoid the quote feature to avoid making this post a mile long. Hopefully I can make things understandable as to what is a response to what.
///M-Spec:
Brilliant post. I give you a lot of +invisirep for the helpfulness of that post. 👍
I'm not planning to make a track car right off the bat, so from what I gather from the first part of your post is that it shouldn't be all too expensive to get one reasonably back up to snuff. And it also looks like there isn't anything too critical to go out on the car, so it would be comforting that I shouldn't need to be too worried about something going out which makes the car undrivable until it can be repaired.
As for going aftermarket versus OEM, I'd definitely compare the prices to see just what I can get on the aftermarket for around the same price as the OEM parts.
And this is very reassuring because the main reservation I have about the car is simply the fact that the cars will have such high mileage.
And I know that I shouldn't really be listening too much to my offline friends. Although the amount of "told you so"s that I'd get if something did go wrong is rather frightening. Granted, their experience is limited to one DINAN car that had to get the clutch replaced at under 40k miles and had to get the dashboard replaced, and the replacement didn't fit. And those are hardly issues I'm worried about running into if I take good care of the car. And I also see E36s everywhere so there can't really be all that much wrong with them.
I guess I'll also have to make sure I'm ready to be taking care of the car in a nasty Michigan winter. And as for brand image, well, who cares when the car is a great car? Especially when the image hooks you up in a good way?
Toronado:
Sush, you! Just because VWs are explicitly off the list doesn't mean they aren't the best in the world.
Danoff:
Again, experience is a great teacher. And when I get to the test driving phase, I'll be sure to take one for a spin. I don't think there's really anything I know about them that's bad, they just haven't really appealed to me. Maybe it'll be more enjoyable to drive than the others on the list, in which case, picking one up would be pretty likely. It does seem to be a solid all around car, so I definitely can't mark it as a bad choice.
Pupik:
Another great post. I'll give out more +invisirep for this one. 👍
I think the IS is pretty much out, just seeing that finding one in good shape while still being a ways under what the KBB seems to be for the car is a bit tough. I think the prospect of getting a new set of tires every year or so is enough to scare me away from the car unless I can find a pretty sweet deal on one. This is a car I'd want to get snow tires for, so it sounds like I might get pretty overwhelmed with tires before too long with the car. And that is a shame because the car seems like it would be pretty easy to maintain if it wasn't for that.
///M-Spec:
Brilliant post. I give you a lot of +invisirep for the helpfulness of that post. 👍
I'm not planning to make a track car right off the bat, so from what I gather from the first part of your post is that it shouldn't be all too expensive to get one reasonably back up to snuff. And it also looks like there isn't anything too critical to go out on the car, so it would be comforting that I shouldn't need to be too worried about something going out which makes the car undrivable until it can be repaired.
As for going aftermarket versus OEM, I'd definitely compare the prices to see just what I can get on the aftermarket for around the same price as the OEM parts.
And this is very reassuring because the main reservation I have about the car is simply the fact that the cars will have such high mileage.
And I know that I shouldn't really be listening too much to my offline friends. Although the amount of "told you so"s that I'd get if something did go wrong is rather frightening. Granted, their experience is limited to one DINAN car that had to get the clutch replaced at under 40k miles and had to get the dashboard replaced, and the replacement didn't fit. And those are hardly issues I'm worried about running into if I take good care of the car. And I also see E36s everywhere so there can't really be all that much wrong with them.
I guess I'll also have to make sure I'm ready to be taking care of the car in a nasty Michigan winter. And as for brand image, well, who cares when the car is a great car? Especially when the image hooks you up in a good way?
Toronado:
Sush, you! Just because VWs are explicitly off the list doesn't mean they aren't the best in the world.
Danoff:
Again, experience is a great teacher. And when I get to the test driving phase, I'll be sure to take one for a spin. I don't think there's really anything I know about them that's bad, they just haven't really appealed to me. Maybe it'll be more enjoyable to drive than the others on the list, in which case, picking one up would be pretty likely. It does seem to be a solid all around car, so I definitely can't mark it as a bad choice.
Pupik:
Another great post. I'll give out more +invisirep for this one. 👍
I think the IS is pretty much out, just seeing that finding one in good shape while still being a ways under what the KBB seems to be for the car is a bit tough. I think the prospect of getting a new set of tires every year or so is enough to scare me away from the car unless I can find a pretty sweet deal on one. This is a car I'd want to get snow tires for, so it sounds like I might get pretty overwhelmed with tires before too long with the car. And that is a shame because the car seems like it would be pretty easy to maintain if it wasn't for that.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,619
- Texas
Your friends' view on BMW reliability comes from a DINAN-modified car? Well, that alone tells you not to listen to them considering how reliable & supportive DINAN actually is to its customers.
M-Spec has said everything there needs to be as well, so you can take my post as one criticizing your friends for their obvious lack of knowledge on BMW reliability. They're strong, sturdy cars that only need repairs if you don't care for them. Teach them that.
- 17,865
- 509
Unless your friends have some first hand knowledge and experience with the M3, then you should disregard anything they have to say about it. It's really funny how often people with no idea what they're talking about love to give their opinions on BMWs. "I heard they are expensive to repair and they break down all the time" is the line I hear parroted over and and over again, and it's usually from the uninformed ignoramuses. To me, it's like a litmus test for stupidity: if you try to give people advice on things of which you have no knowledge, then it shows you don't have the capability to learn things for yourself and have to rely on regurgitating information from other people.
Can't help you with your mom's opinion though. You'll just have to convince her a Bimmer will help you pick up nice classy girls instead of the trashy sluts that usually go for the imports.
M
The truth couldn't be more painful on the first bit. I had all the classic misconceptions about BMWs that you listed there, up till I did some research and drove one. And then I was like "Why didn't I just do this sooner and listen to those BMW guys I know?"
And generally it is the import crowd listing off the "expensive parts and common failures." Of course, I can get parts for the M at about what it costs to get Civic parts, it feels like.
On the girls part
just show here a picture of a smart business woman or something going for a BMW guy and then a picture of the typical HIN or general import girl 
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
Philly;
I'm glad you find my posts useful. It's nice to be able to impart the information I've stored in my brain for the better part of 10 years to another generation of E36 M3 fans.
Let me stress something important. The items I covered really pertain only to the suspension and I don't want you to get the impression that nothing else will break on the car.
To help you (and anyone else considering E36 M3 ownership) get a more complete picture of what usually does and what might go wrong on the car, I'm going to compile a list of things, broken down by area and severity.
To help you get an overview of the car, you should check out this guys excellent video tutorial. He does a very good job of covering the basics and is a 'must view' for anyone looking at an E36 M3.
*Mild language warning!
1 2 3
Okay, now The List. I've tried to color code everything to show the importance of addressing the item. Red is critical, orange is important, blue is optional, and green are typical wear items that may or may not need replacing. Purple items are failures that may or may not apply to every vehicle, but have occurred in other E36 M3s.
*A note on vendors: I have no affiliation with any of the listed vendors below, nor should the inclusion of any vendor be considered an endorsement of any sort. When I was thinking about buying an E36 and building a dedicated auto-x/track car, these were the parts that interested me. I have included the products and vendors in this list for the sole purpose of illustration only.
Powertrain *Applies to US models only
-Radiator neck Replace w OEM
-Fan clutch Replace w OEM
-Thermostat Replace w TMS aluminum housing
-Water pump Replace w updated OEM pump w/aluminum propshaft
-Fuel filter Replace w OEM
-Flex disc (Guibo) Replace w OEM
-Engine mounts Replace w Bimmerworld Performance/Track mounts
-Transmission mounts Replace w UUCMotorwerks Black Enforcer mount
-Clutch and throwout bearing Replace w UUCMotorwerks Performance Organic kit
-Sparkplugs Replace w whatever floats your boat
* 5th gear detent
* Money shift and bent valves
* Vanos rattle
* Oil pump nut (in video)
Chassis and Suspension
-Front control arms + bushings Replace with TMS aluminum front control arms and UUCMotorworks Ultimate FCAB
-Tie rod ends Replace w OEM
-Sway bar end links Replace w TMS adjustable links
-Rear shock mounts Replace with TMS aluminum mount from rear suspension package
-Rear toe arm bushings Replace with TMS bushing from rear suspension package + Rogue Engineering bushing limiter
-Rear subframe bushings Replace with TMS bushing from rear suspension package
-Other bushings in rear suspension, incl. differential (19 total)
-Reinforcement plates Reinforce with TMS chassis repair kit
-Camber/caster plates Install Vorshlag adjustable plates
-Rear camber arm Upgrade to Group N arm? Or adjustable TMS or RE arms?
-Underbody brace Install BMW Motorsport x-brace
-Swaybars Upgrade with *undecided* UUC maybe
-Springs Upgrade with *undecided* Ground Control or TMS
-Shocks Upgrade with *undecided* Konis from TMS set maybe
-Tires (duh) Whatever floats your boat. I like PS2 for street, Hoosiers and Kumhos for autocross/track
-Brake pads Upgrade with *undecided* Axxis maybe
* Cracking in rear suspension components
Body and Electrical
* Front lower tray and 'porkchops' Replace with JT design?
Other helpful links
Complete rear suspension refresh @ Bimmerforums
Edge Motorworks 75k Checklist
Alignment Guide @Bimmerforums
RogueEngineering Guibo Guide
I will try to update this in the future, in case anyone else around here gets the E36 M3 bug and wants to buy one. I will also try to explain in detail the purple items in future posts, which need further clarification. Other M3 owners (past and present), please feel free to chime in with your experiences!
M
I'm glad you find my posts useful. It's nice to be able to impart the information I've stored in my brain for the better part of 10 years to another generation of E36 M3 fans.
Let me stress something important. The items I covered really pertain only to the suspension and I don't want you to get the impression that nothing else will break on the car.
To help you (and anyone else considering E36 M3 ownership) get a more complete picture of what usually does and what might go wrong on the car, I'm going to compile a list of things, broken down by area and severity.
To help you get an overview of the car, you should check out this guys excellent video tutorial. He does a very good job of covering the basics and is a 'must view' for anyone looking at an E36 M3.
*Mild language warning!
1 2 3
Okay, now The List. I've tried to color code everything to show the importance of addressing the item. Red is critical, orange is important, blue is optional, and green are typical wear items that may or may not need replacing. Purple items are failures that may or may not apply to every vehicle, but have occurred in other E36 M3s.
*A note on vendors: I have no affiliation with any of the listed vendors below, nor should the inclusion of any vendor be considered an endorsement of any sort. When I was thinking about buying an E36 and building a dedicated auto-x/track car, these were the parts that interested me. I have included the products and vendors in this list for the sole purpose of illustration only.
Powertrain *Applies to US models only
-Radiator neck Replace w OEM
-Fan clutch Replace w OEM
-Thermostat Replace w TMS aluminum housing
-Water pump Replace w updated OEM pump w/aluminum propshaft
-Fuel filter Replace w OEM
-Flex disc (Guibo) Replace w OEM
-Engine mounts Replace w Bimmerworld Performance/Track mounts
-Transmission mounts Replace w UUCMotorwerks Black Enforcer mount
-Clutch and throwout bearing Replace w UUCMotorwerks Performance Organic kit
-Sparkplugs Replace w whatever floats your boat
* 5th gear detent
* Money shift and bent valves
* Vanos rattle
* Oil pump nut (in video)
Chassis and Suspension
-Front control arms + bushings Replace with TMS aluminum front control arms and UUCMotorworks Ultimate FCAB
-Tie rod ends Replace w OEM
-Sway bar end links Replace w TMS adjustable links
-Rear shock mounts Replace with TMS aluminum mount from rear suspension package
-Rear toe arm bushings Replace with TMS bushing from rear suspension package + Rogue Engineering bushing limiter
-Rear subframe bushings Replace with TMS bushing from rear suspension package
-Other bushings in rear suspension, incl. differential (19 total)
-Reinforcement plates Reinforce with TMS chassis repair kit
-Camber/caster plates Install Vorshlag adjustable plates
-Rear camber arm Upgrade to Group N arm? Or adjustable TMS or RE arms?
-Underbody brace Install BMW Motorsport x-brace
-Swaybars Upgrade with *undecided* UUC maybe
-Springs Upgrade with *undecided* Ground Control or TMS
-Shocks Upgrade with *undecided* Konis from TMS set maybe
-Tires (duh) Whatever floats your boat. I like PS2 for street, Hoosiers and Kumhos for autocross/track
-Brake pads Upgrade with *undecided* Axxis maybe
* Cracking in rear suspension components
Body and Electrical
* Front lower tray and 'porkchops' Replace with JT design?
Other helpful links
Complete rear suspension refresh @ Bimmerforums
Edge Motorworks 75k Checklist
Alignment Guide @Bimmerforums
RogueEngineering Guibo Guide
I will try to update this in the future, in case anyone else around here gets the E36 M3 bug and wants to buy one. I will also try to explain in detail the purple items in future posts, which need further clarification. Other M3 owners (past and present), please feel free to chime in with your experiences!
M
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
BMW girls require BMW dinners. Import girls require McDonald's. So yes, BMW are more expensive to own...
Most BMW girls expect you to take them someplace where the furniture isn't bolted to the floor.
But the import girls I've met seemed pretty happy with a self-serve protein shake while riding around...
M
- 7,666
Again, thanks for the advice, M! 👍
Great video. A video is definitely the best way to give this kind of information out without an actual face to face meeting. It seems like the car isn't that bad in terms of wear and things, which is pretty impressive considering the age of the vehicle. And it looks like a few of those can be done without taking the car in, which isn't bad.
It'll be tough deciding if I want to go with the safety of the 3 or take a little gamble with the M3...
Great video. A video is definitely the best way to give this kind of information out without an actual face to face meeting. It seems like the car isn't that bad in terms of wear and things, which is pretty impressive considering the age of the vehicle. And it looks like a few of those can be done without taking the car in, which isn't bad.
It'll be tough deciding if I want to go with the safety of the 3 or take a little gamble with the M3...
- 1,382
- New Jersey
say it aint so philly
- 17,865
- 509
- 7,666
Don't worry. I'll still love VWs to death. And the GTI will still be in the family so I'll still get to enjoy it. Who knows. Maybe I'll be able to convince the family to throw some money at it for an intake or something. Hell, the Polo or maybe a new GTI will probably be sitting pretty high on the list when it comes to replacing whatever I wind up with. Maybe I'll get them to get a decent suspension setup for the thing soon.
Why wouldn't he upgrade from the GTi to a real sports car?
It's sad, but you pretty much are right. For what it is, the GTI is a fantastic car though. No, it's not a race car, but it certainly is something for a sporty car that doubles as an everyday econobox.
- 7,666
Today I was able to go out and get a little experience in a couple of these cars:
E36 BMW M3:
I think this car was pretty much destroyed, and I probably shouldn't even use this drive as actual data.
Needless to say, I was utterly disappointed. Granted, I looked around before and saw that the right rear tire was in the wheel well, with the carpeting cut up and no spare tire. Alright. Maybe it'll still be somewhat entertaining to drive.
Nope. It was pretty much completely numb. Turning was not at all exciting. The wheel was a fair bit heavier than the GTI, and when it came to corners, I would turn the wheel and the car just kinda did it. Granted I was a little scared to really wring it out, not knowing the car, but even when I took the coul-de-sac very fast, it was just pretty ho-hum. Maybe that was due to the suspension.
Going wasn't very fun either. The gas pedal was extremely heavy. I really liked how well the throttle and engine worked together though. Down low, the car wasn't too thrilling. I'd miss the low end torque on the GTI. But once the revs got up, the car was pretty brilliant. Sure it took me a way illegal trip down a side street, but high in the rev range was the only place where the car remotely matched my expectations.
What do M3 owners think? Should I even consider this drive as actual data to look at? BMWs are supposed to be the ultimate driving machines, and this one was pretty much anything but.
Mazda 3
OK, I didn't personally drive this car, not having any experience in a manual. But from the passenger seat, the car felt really tight and the steering pretty responsive. Acceleration wasn't too thrilling, but I kinda expected that.
But I don't even know if that was a stock suspension setup. The guy insisted it was, but the 18" rims filled out the wheel wells just a little too well for me to be convinced.
===
It also didn't help that the dealer I was at was very shady. Any used car lot with 300 cars, mostly sporty and luxury cars can't be "great" though. The salesman was utterly terrible, and pretty much all the cars looked to be pretty much destroyed.
Needless to say, the GTI was the big star of the day for me. The thing drives so much better than that lousy M3 did.
E36 BMW M3:
I think this car was pretty much destroyed, and I probably shouldn't even use this drive as actual data.
Needless to say, I was utterly disappointed. Granted, I looked around before and saw that the right rear tire was in the wheel well, with the carpeting cut up and no spare tire. Alright. Maybe it'll still be somewhat entertaining to drive.
Nope. It was pretty much completely numb. Turning was not at all exciting. The wheel was a fair bit heavier than the GTI, and when it came to corners, I would turn the wheel and the car just kinda did it. Granted I was a little scared to really wring it out, not knowing the car, but even when I took the coul-de-sac very fast, it was just pretty ho-hum. Maybe that was due to the suspension.
Going wasn't very fun either. The gas pedal was extremely heavy. I really liked how well the throttle and engine worked together though. Down low, the car wasn't too thrilling. I'd miss the low end torque on the GTI. But once the revs got up, the car was pretty brilliant. Sure it took me a way illegal trip down a side street, but high in the rev range was the only place where the car remotely matched my expectations.
What do M3 owners think? Should I even consider this drive as actual data to look at? BMWs are supposed to be the ultimate driving machines, and this one was pretty much anything but.
Mazda 3
OK, I didn't personally drive this car, not having any experience in a manual. But from the passenger seat, the car felt really tight and the steering pretty responsive. Acceleration wasn't too thrilling, but I kinda expected that.
But I don't even know if that was a stock suspension setup. The guy insisted it was, but the 18" rims filled out the wheel wells just a little too well for me to be convinced.
===
It also didn't help that the dealer I was at was very shady. Any used car lot with 300 cars, mostly sporty and luxury cars can't be "great" though. The salesman was utterly terrible, and pretty much all the cars looked to be pretty much destroyed.
Needless to say, the GTI was the big star of the day for me. The thing drives so much better than that lousy M3 did.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I'm fairly sure the 2.3S models came with the 18" wheels, which filled the wells easily. Even in stock form, the car drives and handles extremely well. Digging down in the cheap end, even the basic 3i had plenty of gusto under the hood, and a "just right" chassis setup that would make most German cars blush.
- 27,219
- United Kingdom
The steering in E36s does seem to be fairly heavy (though for me it's quite nice as my car doesn't have power steering anyway so anything is light after that) but it shouldn't feel numb. This could be two things though - the dodgy condition of the car, and the fact that you're used to a powerful front-drive car where a lot is going on at the front wheels and it comes back through the steering. In this respect, you don't feel as much through the wheel of a RWD car, until you begin really pressing on.
This doesn't quite sound right to me. The BMs and the MINIs I've driven have had nicely weighted pedals. The gas pedal is well-sprung but I don't think it should feel heavy as such, unless again the one in the GTI is light as a feather.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
Sounds like you found a tired and neglected car. It probably needs new tie-rod ends, front control arms and shocks at the very least. A well maintained M3 should impart a strong feeling of precision and display exemplary body control. You should feel like you can drive it sideways into a corner and still hit a dime dropped on the apex.
Now that E36 M3s are available to those with modest incomes, a lot of them are falling into the hands of people who only want the image of an M3 and don't really care or know anything about cars. These cheapskate third and fourth owners drive the piss out of the poor things and don't keep up with maintenance because they're spending their money on ghetto rims, Altezza lights and neon crap.
If you find an M3 at a used car dealer and he as no paperwork (repair receipts) for it, it is usually --but not always-- a bad sign. If you are looking private party and the seller has no idea when the control arms or rear shock mounts were replaced, that's an equally bad sign. If the car is slammed and rolling on chrome 19s, run the hell away as fast as you can.
M
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- 10,837
- Belgium
- bramturismo
Too true.
I'm not a big BMW fan, but most of those driving around here deserve much better drivers. I love the current M5, but when I see one of the owners in town driving it around with chrome rims, a rediculous bodykit and lexus lights, I just want to throw a facepalm image on his windshield. The same happens at school. Alot of 3-series BMWs of Azure's BMW era drive around at school, only to be modified with tinted windows, stupid snowmobile stickers, bad boy bonnets, and exhausts that nearly drop from under the car. Oh, and don't forget "da gangsta lean style yo!" that seems to be popular with too many young Norwegian drivers...
- 2,185
- Indianapolis
- GTP_ranhammerR34
- RadCoronet5651
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/classifieds/cars/detview.php?view=44440
Give it a little love and it will last you forever! --- Randy
Give it a little love and it will last you forever!
--- Randy
- 6,769
- Little Elm, TX
- JCE3000GT
M is completely and absolutely 1,000% correct. Find a stocker owned by a middle aged professional with less than 85k miles and if they can answer some maintenance questions and or provide some records then I'd say that's the one to go for. Avoid ANYONE that cannot provide verifiable proof of maintenance.
- 7,666
The car I was in definitely felt like something I could own. Sure it won't have the straight line gusto of the M3, or the joys of RWD, but definitely something that would probably put smiles on my face.
That makes sense. I'm sure the condition of the car had a big part of it, although I'd still like to take an M3 out into the country more. It does seem like a car that I might have to drive a little harder to really get a feel for it. City driving probably isn't the best judge on how the car feels.
I'm thinking this is the case. Every car I've ever driven hasn't had a difficult throttle. Nothing that I had to make a conscious effort to press, at least.
M is completely and absolutely 1,000% correct. Find a stocker owned by a middle aged professional with less than 85k miles and if they can answer some maintenance questions and or provide some records then I'd say that's the one to go for. Avoid ANYONE that cannot provide verifiable proof of maintenance.
I think that's the kind of used car anybody would want to buy. The dealer said they could go find a Carfax of the vehicle, although I wasn't really serious about buying that particular vehicle, and would have instantly been turned off by the condition of the thing.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Yeah, I remembered. I think I forgot the part where you didn't want a monthly payment. Too bad your economy isn't completely in the toilet out there as it is here. We're still trying to sell fully-loaded Chrysler Sebrings for $12,000.
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