Sixaxis to G25 - 1 Year

Day 25 - 02/05/09

It's been well over 3 weeks now that I am using the Logitech G25 for absolutely everything on GT5. I haven't touched a Sixaxis controller for racing since.

Many things have become easier and more natural, and as I said before it feels like I have been on the wheel for much much longer than just 3 and a half weeks. I am unfortunately still using my ridiculous shoebox/plank/couple of chairs setup to attach the system to, and last night saw the first calamity. While trying to detach the wheel from the plank (albeit in some frustration thanks to WRS 26) the whole thing collapsed with the wheel landing on the plank landing on the shifter landing on the pedals. I can only hope no lasting damage was done. I am just waiting for funds to clear in PayPal so that I can purchase the much much much needed Wheelstand Pro.

Anyway on to some laptime info, on WRS 25 last week, the Nissan R34 VSpec Nur at Daytona Road, I was able to place 3rd in Division 2 and about 8th overall I think out of nearly 40 competitors, well among the D2 gold guys and just over 0.1s off D1 silver guys like Mr_P and DEVIE. I felt after Eiger in the F430 and then my podium at DR, I was definitely exhibiting D2 gold pace compared to D2 silver pace over the first and second week of G25 use and a whole bunch of months of Sixaxis use.

Catching slides is almost second nature now, not perfect, but most of the time I can keep it pointing in the right direction. Racing is now much easier and more consistent, even in wiley cars like the Lotus Elise family. Close racing with other cars is also now possible and I can maintain my line to avoid contact most of the time. On the G25 I just find it a little difficult with my assigned buttons to look left and right as fast as I used to on Sixaxis. My wheel buttons are assigned as look back and ghost, mainly for time trial and WRS purposes.

This week's combo at Suzuka in WRS 26 using the Aston Martin DB9 on S2 tyres has been a thud back down to earth. Suzuka was always my favourite track on Sixaxis and the one where I performed best, now on G25 that has changed. While I am better in certain sections, the level of mistakes and ruined laps has increased dramatically as I still try to perfect my wheel use.

I must say, I feel I have now fully tamed turn 1 and the esses to my satisfaction, being regularly able to stay incredibly close to FAK_EV1L's ghost at Suzuka in the DB9. Dunlop however is where 50% of my laps end. The other 50% tend to end at Degner 1 and 2 or even Spoon 1 entry if I am lucky enough to make it that far. I am STILL not precise enough to be able to place the car consistently where I want it, so more often than not I get to Spoon one, one of my rear wheels touches the right-side grass just before braking, and the lap is over.

This has proved an incredibly hard combo for me, and because I spend so much time not completing laps (About 12 laps completed in a total of nearly 4 hours on this combo over the week, utterly shocking) that I cannot work on raising speed because there is no damn consistency. In fact a stack of laps get ruined before I even get to the start/finish line. This combo is proving quite the challenge for the regular top guys, so I guess I was bound to struggle. Even after nearly 4 weeks, it's still very hard to swallow seeing so many guys faster than me that I used to keep up with or beat regularly at Suzuka in equally difficult cars. But the improvements are there clearly, I am better at Suzuka than I was when I first got the wheel, it's just so hard to feel like a beginner again around a circuit I could drive in my sleep.

Despite all of this, I am still 7th out of 14 in Division 2 with my current time (incidentally set within 5 mins of the total 4 hours so far) and I haven't gotten close to my original best lap in 2 days. I will try again today for a short while, and if no improvement is forthcoming I will switch to WRS 27 as I see no point in further frustrating myself. The laptimes will come with time, and you can't win 'em all.

All the best
Maz

Synwraith

Day 25 - 02/05/09

It's been well over 3 weeks now that I am using the Logitech G25 for absolutely everything on GT5. I haven't touched a Sixaxis controller for racing since.



Anyway on to some laptime info, on WRS 25 last week, the Nissan R34 VSpec Nur at Daytona Road, I was able to place 3rd in Division 2 and about 8th overall I think out of nearly 40 competitors, well among the D2 gold guys and just over 0.1s off D2 silver guys like Mr_P and DEVIE. I felt after Eiger in the F430 and then my podium at DR, I was definitely exhibiting D2 gold pace compared to D2 silver pace over the first and second week of G25 use and a whole bunch of months of Sixaxis use.

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Maz, glad to hear of the improvements over the 3 weeks, you certainly seem to have mastered the learning curve quick.

Just out of interest mate, how many hrs in total do you think you have invested since the first day?

osg

Maz, glad to hear of the improvements over the 3 weeks, you certainly seem to have mastered the learning curve quick.

Just out of interest mate, how many hrs in total do you think you have invested since the first day?

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I'm not sure mate, I know I spent about 40 hours at Eiger in total in week 2, about 10 hours I guess at DR in WRS 25, 4 hours so far this week in WRS 26 and 1.5 hours racing with T&L, anothe rcouple of hours with T&L the previous week and week before combined...another stack of hours re-doing all of the A, B,C, S licence events...somewhere between 70 and 80 hours is very possible.

2 of those weeks I was on Easter Holiday from work and so dedicated many hours during the day. Been far less since I have been at work, hence only starting WRS 26 on Friday. If it wasn;t for me ordering the G25 at the start of the 2 week Easter break, I'd be further behind in my progress for certain.

All the best
Maz

Synwraith

I'm not sure mate, I know I spent about 40 hours at Eiger in total in week 2, about 10 hours I guess at DR in WRS 25, 4 hours so far this week in WRS 26 and 1.5 hours racing with T&L, anothe rcouple of hours with T&L the previous week and week before combined...another stack of hours re-doing all of the A, B,C, S licence events...somewhere between 70 and 80 hours is very possible.

2 of those weeks I was on Easter Holiday from work and so dedicated many hours during the day. Been far less since I have been at work, hence only starting WRS 26 on Friday. If it wasn;t for me ordering the G25 at the start of the 2 week Easter break, I'd be further behind in my progress for certain.

All the best
Maz

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Do you feel mentally tired mate? I remember when i first got the G25, i actually felt drained after the first week due to it also falling at a time when i had time off from work. I distinctly remember putting 7hrs in straight and about 14hrs over the first 36hrs of ownership!!!!

Can you imagine how silly we are going to go when GT5 is released.........

This pretty much confirms my earlier estimates of how long it takes to master driving with a wheel in GT4 or GT5P. I said that it's ~1 month, and you're right in the ballpark. I started my wheel career with DFP, then moved on to G25, and both times led me to re-learning the driving techniques. luckily GT4 had BMW 120i, AW11 MR2 and MX-5 to cushion the landing.

osg

Do you feel mentally tired mate? I remember when i first got the G25, i actually felt drained after the first week due to it also falling at a time when i had time off from work. I distinctly remember putting 7hrs in straight and about 14hrs over the first 36hrs of ownership!!!!

Can you imagine how silly we are going to go when GT5 is released.........

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Oh man don't get me started...the amount of hours I normally have for playing means I won't complete it for months. Which I guess is great news, but I may not be seen online much

As for being mentally tired, not really, I just wish I could eject some of the competition in me when trying to get D2 winning times or promoted in WRS blah blah.

I have to admit though, I am allowing more of the pure fun of it to shine through again like in the first couple of days

All the best
Maz

Synwraith

I have to admit though, I am allowing more of the pure fun of it to shine through again like in the first couple of days

All the best
Maz

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Thats what its all about Maz.

Maz, your experience at this week's WRS pretty much mirrors my own--except that you are quite a bit quicker to T2

Like you, I have been using FAK's ghost and amazingly I can stay within .05 to .1 through the esses, but he slowly begins to rocket away from Dunlop onward

Unlike you however, Suzuka has never been one of my favorite tracks. Having said that, there's little doubt that if you want to compare yourself to the fastest drivers in GT5P, Suzuka is the "litmus" test for it, IMO. Until I got the wheel, I was shockingly off pace at Suzuka. For example, in the stock NSX (550 PP), I was running high 2'20 laps with the pad, and now I can get mid 2'18's to low 2'19's with the wheel. But still so far off pace compared to the faster drivers.

Can't wait to hear what you think of the wheelstand. If a wheel itself is worth at least 1 sec per lap on average, and I believe it is, the stand, or any stable set up for that matter, has also got to be worth at least .2 per lap I would think. So you will only get faster in the weeks ahead 👍

cpp214

Maz, your experience at this week's WRS pretty much mirrors my own--except that you are quite a bit quicker to T2

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Not any more apparently! Great lap mate

All the best
Maz

Hey, great 'blog' if you will, and very helpful to all transitionalists im sure, today was my first day with the wheel after alot of Sixaxis use, it's just a cheap DF Ex as i can't afford anything atm and i'm not gona say no

what would you say are the most important things at the begging of the wheel use transition, im finding Suzuka a real pain, especially the first corner and A7 in general, faults i can correct with the sixaxis spin me completley, help very much appriceated from technically a veteran in the art of wheel now

Kinetic

Hey, great 'blog' if you will, and very helpful to all transitionalists im sure, today was my first day with the wheel after alot of Sixaxis use, it's just a cheap DF Ex as i can't afford anything atm and i'm not gona say no

what would you say are the most important things at the begging of the wheel use transition, im finding Suzuka a real pain, especially the first corner and A7 in general, faults i can correct with the sixaxis spin me completley, help very much appriceated from technically a veteran in the art of wheel now

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Hi mate,

I would say honestly, take the time and read all the messages and posts in this thread since the very beginning because I honestly believe your questions have already been answered. They are pretty much exactly the same questions I had at the start of my wheel use.

Also, I would not call myself a wheel veteran at all I still find myself having difficulty reaching limits and completing a single 5-lap race without spinning. By the end of my Sixaxis use I could complete and win the 650PP 10-lap race against some very strong members.

I will be posting later today about how the wheel feels to me after exactly 4 weeks (approx 1 month) of very regular play. maybe that will contain some useful tips for you, look out for it 👍

All the best
Maz

Cheers for getting back to me, i had a read through but was more of a skim, so i'll have a good read of it all

only thing is, the more i read the more i want to play which is irritating to try and keep concentration

thanks again

I drift much better with my Dual Shock 3 than with my now sold G25.

1 Month - 08/05/09 to 11/05/09

It's now been one month since I changed from 100% Sixaxis use with all Gran Turismo games, to solely using the Logitech G25 wheel with GT5...

• Getting back up to the same pace I had before (Division 2 Silver) took roughly 4 weeks of very dedicated play and practise with time trials, WRS and racing. Sometimes nearly 40 hours a week, which is a pretty unrealistic figure for most people. I was lucky to have 2 weeks off work and the flat to myself in the daytimes.
  
  
• After one month I am now on average running at nearly Division 2 Gold pace, if the WRS results are anything to go by, but no promotion yet. I probably need a few consecutive WRS podiums for that.
  
  
• The most difficult thing by far is still racing. Consistent laps without mistakes and spins are the major challenge. I have not completed any 5 to 10 lap races without major moments causing spins at tracks like Fuji, Daytona and Suzuka.
  
  
• Recovery times from spins are currently much longer than with Sixaxis, meaning it is far easier to ruin races. This will of course improve with time.
  
  
• Catching oversteer moments is much easier than it was a week ago, never mind a month ago, but still not as easy as with Sixaxis yet.
  
  
• Suzuka is without a doubt the hardest track for me to get a good laptime on. Just way too many places to make a mistake with such a large number of corners. This used to be my best track on Sixaxis, I had often beaten the very best here at Suzuka 750PP, 10-lap 650PP and the classic 600PP Suzuka.
  
  
• Eiger is generally an easier track with a wheel than with Sixaxis, improvements were very clear here. When I say easier, I mean going faster is more possible, but it is unbelievably taxing on your senses and reflexes.
  
  
• I started using no aids and Force feedback at 5, went down to 4 for Eiger, up to 10 very briefly, then 7, and now 6. I hope to settle again at 5 where my steering inputs will be gentle and measured enough to not cause so many spins as when I first began.
  
  
• Wheel use is absolutely not going to hide or compensate for a driver's issue with technique, lines, braking and steering. If anything it will highlight these much more clearly, not mask them as the "sixaxis excuse" sometimes did for me, and forces you to improve. The more things you have control over, the more things there are to screw up!
  
  
• RWD cars such as the Aston Martin DB9 or Concept By GT Lotus Elise 111R/Tuned on S2 are incredibly difficult to drive for me currently. Put them on Suzuka as I have done in the past 2 weeks and you have a terribly frustrating combo. These ass-happy cars which require intense concentration and very well connected throttle/steering and brake input (sometimes all three together) as well as important racing lines can really bite hard at a moment's notice, and I feel unless you are at one with your equipment, there's going to be drama on every lap. I didn't complete a single staisfactory lap in either car at Suzuka to give me a laptime representative of my best splits.
  
  
• Toughest corners are Daytona Road Bus Stop, Suzuka's Spoon 1 and Degner. Suzuka turn 1 was very difficult for me as little as 2 weeks ago, but since WRS 26 and the Lotus episode, I am now far better in this corner. Just practise.
  
  
• The amount of patience required to improve, practise, accept that some days will be very bad, recover your "lost" speed etc is phenomenal. You will not get used to it and be faster overnight, absolutely not. I can safely say that nearly 12 years of GT experience with Sixaxis and Dulashock have been of little to no use to my wheel use generally. There has been so much re-learning and learning from scratch. The Sixaxis really does make you drive differently because the control system is different. I mean, lock to lock is a nanosecond. On a wheel it's a whole different story with a million extra stops in between.
  
  
• Don't be discouraged by those around you being faster. They have had more time than you and are improving all the time. These things are a moving target. The thing that keeps me going despite the sometimes incredible frustration and PAIN (because let's face it, it hurts to be rubbish at your favourite hobby) of the transition...I just have to name one improvement from the week before, and they are always there. There has not been a single week where something hasn't gotten better, where one more feather hasn't been added to my cap. In all the spins and restarts there is always something to be positive about, and my race last week with GTP_JvM in the Concept 111R/Tune on S2s with 650PP...a lightweight beast by any measure...was my highlight and my focus for the future. Our laptimes were comparable and close, we raced hard for nearly 3 laps of Suzuka side by side in many corners like Spoon, turn 1 and Degner and never touched. That's where I want to be.

All the best
Maz

awesome update, gives me confidence and motivation to keep plugging on, i'm not a week into the GT use yet, and its hard for me to see the light at the end of the tunnel but i'll keep plugging, it's just incredibly disheartening sometimes.

thanks again

Hope my question fits here. If not, just axe it.

Are there cars that feel very different when handled with 6@6, then with a wheel ?

I had my first wheel a few weeks ago, and I wanted to learn with a nice little RWD. Comin' an' goin' through cars, I ended up trying the BMW Tii Concept. The thing was horrendous with the pad (to me, anyway) but with the wheel, it was surprisingly pleasant. I was like for ten Suzy laps.

So are there more cars in GT5P with such a startling difference in "personnality" depending on input device ?

blaktek

Hope my question fits here. If not, just axe it.

Are there cars that feel very different when handled with 6@6, then with a wheel ?

I had my first wheel a few weeks ago, and I wanted to learn with a nice little RWD. Comin' an' goin' through cars, I ended up trying the BMW Tii Concept. The thing was horrendous with the pad (to me, anyway) but with the wheel, it was surprisingly pleasant. I was like for ten Suzy laps.

So are there more cars in GT5P with such a startling difference in "personnality" depending on input device ?

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It could just be that now you've had the wheel for a few weeks, your inputs on the steering and throttle have become more measured or precise to the point where tail-happy RWD cars are now easier to control with the throttle.

I tried the Tii for a Sixaxis championship race and with some tuning found it to be very easy to drive so it wasn't one of the ones I expected to see much of a difference with on G25.

One of the cars I did find considerably easier to control and drive fast on G25 was the Lotus 111R Tuned as much of the work is done by throttle control, left foot braking etc. But with a great deal of practise though...

All the best
Maz

Synwraith

The Sixaxis really does make you drive differently because the control system is different. I mean, lock to lock is a nanosecond.

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Just a query - but I didn't think Lock to Lock on DS is a nanosecond... the game slows it down - if you watch a replay of your wheels when you are saving a slide - they progressively move across the lock...

Also - with DS - the steering decreases dependant on speed too - full "lock" at 100MPH - isn't full lock at 0MPH...

Or am I imagining things?!

C.

yeti

Just a query - but I didn't think Lock to Lock on DS is a nanosecond... the game slows it down - if you watch a replay of your wheels when you are saving a slide - they progressively move across the lock...

Also - with DS - the steering decreases dependant on speed too - full "lock" at 100MPH - isn't full lock at 0MPH...

Or am I imagining things?!

C.

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No, you're right of course, I was exaggerating 👍

I just meant that I found it easier to execute my desired direction on the pad than the wheel. This is especially evident when trying to recover from a spin I find.

All the best
Maz

Synwraith

No, you're right of course, I was exaggerating 👍

I just meant that I found it easier to execute my desired direction on the pad than the wheel. This is especially evident when trying to recover from a spin I find.

All the best
Maz

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Ha ha - glad I'm not imagining things!!

I want to get a wheel - and this topic is very informative... but I will need more than just a wheel in my current lounge config!!

C.

Hi maz

Have you any driving experience in real life before your G25, I'm asking just out of intrest cause I would expect a driver to pick it up faster than a non driver?

HUGHS1E

Hi maz

Have you any driving experience in real life before your G25, I'm asking just out of intrest cause I would expect a driver to pick it up faster than a non driver?

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My wheel should be here by Friday mate I'll be doing a review of the wheel as well as updates on how the transition goes from pad to wheel. I've had quite a bit of seat time in real cars and go karts, so it's going to be interesting to see how I progress. I would imagine having real world driving/racing experience would makes things a lot easier to pick up when using the wheel. But then again, I've never really played any sim racing games with a wheel, so it's completely foreign to me. Should be interesting though 👍

HUGHS1E

Hi maz

Have you any driving experience in real life before your G25, I'm asking just out of intrest cause I would expect a driver to pick it up faster than a non driver?

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Hey mate, only regular road driving. Had my driving licence since 2004 and had the minimal of go karting experience, almost negligible really.

No competitive driving, no real fast driving of any sort.

Compared to Timeattack I might as well have not ever driven at all, so it will be really interesting to see his results.

All the best
Maz

Nice thread.

Im looking forward to your thread timeattack, especially since you are mad fast on the sixaxxis already.

Maz...

+1 👍 and well said, I know all said it before me but really great write up mate, you reminded me of my 1st week

GOD that was tough, I got the wheel 1 week before my final at the Event 02 which was a nightmare I prepared the setup 1 week before I got the wheel and the day I got it I fired it up, what a looser I was that day 14hrs straight without a clean lap That day I do remember Steven (Bigracer) told me to stick to the pad on the final as it was the big fat lady (Aston - DB9) on Suzuka 550 PP (5 laps) but I couldn't, the feeling I got from the wheel exactely as you described it but the hard part I was trying at Suzuka and we all know how technical it is....any how I kept trying and finally managed to match my time with the six-axis, but then I met Bruno (MAY) at DR with the R34 and advised me to stick to the pad but I couldn't do so, I felt guilty for doing so the G25 deserves patiance...now I can say I'm finally using it better than the sixaxis from what I see of the lap times. I know I still have got a lot to work out and be faster but I'm pretty much satisfied of the progress I did so far.

Still there's two thing I can't do at all.

1st: heal toe trick (and shifting down for sure )
2nd: Drift, I did some nice drifts with the sixaxis, but here I suck, I can't launch a drift, hold it and exit...I end up with oversteer or off the track when counter-steering...I always thought it's gonna be much easier with the wheel but now I know it's not

One more thing, I really don't like the shifters on the wheel specially when down-shifting twice or more, it's not fast like the saequential or the H-pattern....

I recently started using the clutch and it rocks when entering a curve, I know I'm not allowed to use it at WRS or GTP official races, but when I'm alone it's great fun

Thanks a lot for sharing such an experiance with us and all the ones who have thoughts of getting one.

Hope to catch you soon on the track...


Haitham

thanks for the reply guy's, an remember ask to race timeattack within the first few weeks his wheel comes then we may have the chance to beat him, because if he knocks a second of his sixaxsis times most of us will never get the chance, ballast needs adding to his car lol, or maybe even a caravan

Nice thread guys... so much so that after reading it on Friday I bit the bullet (but just a small calibre one) and bought a DFGT wheel.
An hours work in the garage with grinder, drop saw, drill and hammer and I had a setup that felt good.

I now know what I have been missing out on with the sixaxis.. wow what a difference !!
I started slow (Pro-Mode RX7 at Suzuka) and just cruised some laps exploring the traction and oversteer and realised how much harder it is to catch a slide, but also how much more control there is. Simply fantastic.
From the RX7 to the Chev, then the F430 and the F40... wow what a freakin rush.

By sunday morning my bro-inlaw (staying over for the weekend) and I had raced about 50 laps of Eiger head to head (Mines GTR with him on sixaxis) and the racing was sensationally close and by now I was feeling really natural behind the wheel.

Our next effort was in the 2007F1 at Fuji... the wheel trying to rip your arms off as it wobbles down the straight..That back section is scary fast.

Final achievement for the weekend was taking the 2007F1 cars to Eiger for some hot laps. The braking bumps before the final double apex turn felt like the wheel was smashing itself to bits : )
I still struggle once that rear end has really stepped out but I feel it is harder to reach that point with the wheel where as with the sixaxis it was harder to keep the rear end inline when really pushing hard.
For the first time ever it actually feels like driving a car and not playing a game.

888, that sounds very much like my experience as you will know from reading the thread, although it sounds like you are finding it more natural much faster than I did. In fact there are days when I still feel only partially in control of the cars I drive.

Congratulations

All the best
Maz

Marooned

Maz...

1st: heal toe trick (and shifting down for sure )
2nd: Drift, I did some nice drifts with the sixaxis, but here I suck, I can't launch a drift, hold it and exit...I end up with oversteer or off the track when counter-steering...I always thought it's gonna be much easier with the wheel but now I know it's not

One more thing, I really don't like the shifters on the wheel specially when down-shifting twice or more, it's not fast like the saequential or the H-pattern....

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Keep at it you will eventually get use to it making GT5p so much more enjoyable 👍

Like your blog Maz but wot impresses me more is how fast you were with a pad because ill never be able to get a wheel so theres hope for me and my pad yet keep up the good work:tup: