Lion's Den Performance- New Autozam, Camaro RM

  • Thread starter Paulie
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That's kind of the idea there roj.....it's backwards to what we knew in GT4 & IRL. For example, in GT4 for drag racing, it was best to have a high front and low rear for acceleration purposes and have your dampers maxed out to reduce wheel movement. In GT5, it's the complete opposite. The height is low front and high rear (or high all round in some cases!! :odd: ) and to have dampers as soft as possible.

But as I just said to Paulie, if you want all out laptimes, then go for backwards tuning. If you want to have a realistic driving car that performs beautifully aswell then stick to what you are already doing mate, because obviously it's working over there at RKM. 👍
 
That's kind of the idea there roj.....it's backwards to what we knew in GT4 & IRL. For example, in GT4 for drag racing, it was best to have a high front and low rear for acceleration purposes and have your dampers maxed out to reduce wheel movement. In GT5, it's the complete opposite. The height is low front and high rear (or high all round in some cases!! :odd: ) and to have dampers as soft as possible.

But as I just said to Paulie, if you want all out laptimes, then go for backwards tuning. If you want to have a realistic driving car that performs beautifully aswell then stick to what you are already doing mate, because obviously it's working over there at RKM. 👍

I understand now, although that doesn't bother me so much because I treat GT5 tuning as if I'm tuning on GT5, not trying to simulate any real life settings. :) Although yeah, it is annoying to start from scratch again with your drag settings. :P

Tuning for laptimes has always been about backwards settings to exploit the physics anyway. I like my cars with personality and I'm happy that there's a market for that here. :D
 
I understand now, although that doesn't bother me so much because I treat GT5 tuning as if I'm tuning on GT5, not trying to simulate any real life settings. :) Although yeah, it is annoying to start from scratch again with your drag settings. :P
Annoying is putting it lightly. I'm just fortunate that it IS the same as GT4 for AWD cars and I'll leave it at that (don't want to release many secrets on that front). ;)

Tuning for laptimes has always been about backwards settings to exploit the physics anyway. I like my cars with personality and I'm happy that there's a market for that here. :D

And that is why we will ALWAYS be needed. :cool:
 
We can keep tuning as though it has real effects, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that if we have a car that oversteers and we stiffen the front roll bar for example that will actually make it worse. I might keep tuning cars anyway.

Hi, err... Can you give me a link for this tune please? My GTR under steers like a barge.

Many thanks! 👍

It's on post #2 of this thread, Lion's Den Performance Racing.
 
We can keep tuning as though it has real effects, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that if we have a car that oversteers and we stiffen the front roll bar for example that will actually make it worse.

It absolutely changes it.
Based on your beliefs, you feel that the Menu's front Sway bar, actually corresponds to the car's rear sway bar adjustment.

You're still making the same exact adjustment, to obtain the outcome you anticipated, it's just in a different box. That doesn't make the tuning backwards, it makes the inputs incorrectly labeled. There's a difference.
 
It absolutely changes it.
Based on your beliefs, you feel that the Menu's front Sway bar, actually corresponds to the car's rear sway bar adjustment.

You're still making the same exact adjustment, to obtain the outcome you anticipated, it's just in a different box. That doesn't make the tuning backwards, it makes the inputs incorrectly labeled. There's a difference.

No it makes it backwards, because visually it's all correct. A car with a high front and low rear "as labelled" will visually be high in the front and low in the rear. It looks stupid because it is. Spring and roll bars are different as you can't see them, but then we don't know for sure if ALL the effects of making an adjustment are backwards, eg. bottoming out (which definitely does happen on high camber corners as created in custom tracks, even on standard road cars which can clear speed bumps, annoyingly). The game's effects of changing dampers are also too minimal to get a real gauge on what's happening there.
 
eg. bottoming out (which definitely does happen on high camber corners as created in custom tracks, even on standard road cars which can clear speed bumps, annoyingly).

No argument here. My GTR LM Race Car that I've been working on all week, bottoms out on Grand Valley and I haven't even lowered it! Sparks flying on that tiny slope uphill at the end of the straight.
 
I had a BMW M3 road car at a custom track and through the high camber corners it would bottom out and naturally that resulted in massive, sudden, unpredictable oversteer, where as my friend in his heightened NC MX-5 was cruising through there and said I had sparks going everywhere from behind.
 
Would it make sense and is it possible to figure out how some of the tuning parameters are backwards.

What I think is correct in the game is; aero, LSD, rear toe, and break balance.

Ridehight. I assume a higher number like 15/15 give better clearance than -15/-15. Then we have the thing that an uneven ridehight significantly changes the balance of the car. Example. Higher front gives more oversteer. I think we are clear on this.

Camber. Presumably this is correct in the game too.

Front toe. Correct as rear toe or backwards?

Springs, dampers, ARB. If backwards, in what way? Higher number gives softer/slower setting, or is it backwards front/back.

If we could figure out above, perhaps we could continue tuning in an intelligent way rather than trial&error as is the case now.

Cheers
 
Would it make sense and is it possible to figure out how some of the tuning parameters are backwards.

What I think is correct in the game is; aero, LSD, rear toe, and break balance.

Ridehight. I assume a higher number like 15/15 give better clearance than -15/-15. Then we have the thing that an uneven ridehight significantly changes the balance of the car. Example. Higher front gives more oversteer. I think we are clear on this.

Camber. Presumably this is correct in the game too.

Front toe. Correct as rear toe or backwards?

Springs, dampers, ARB. If backwards, in what way? Higher number gives softer/slower setting, or is it backwards front/back.

If we could figure out above, perhaps we could continue tuning in an intelligent way rather than trial&error as is the case now.

Cheers

Backwards in relation to GT 4 or the reality?
 
RS6 Avant Shootout
RKM Motorsports vs Lion's Den Performance

RS6Avant.jpg


(A repost of a review I did in the RKM thread)

The Audi RS6 Avant
Fresh out of the Dealer: 554 HP, 2025 kg, 514 PP, Sports Hard Tires
(one run done with each car to ensure even break-in)
Best Lap Time: 1:39.250
Thoughts: With over 500 HP, the RS6 Avant is no slouch on the straights. However, with the mass of a small elephant, the big problems show up any time the track bends. It takes about a day and a half to slow down for a corner, and by time you get there, the tires are red and smoking. Corner speed is about as bad as one would expect. It is very stable on the gas, which is a combination of a high gearbox and enough weight to firmly plant the tires into the asphalt.

Notes before hitting the track: Both tuners went with a nearly full modification on their cars, leaving them equal in both power and weight, with both shops tuning for Sports Soft tires. However, both tuners chose to leave out a piece that make the cars very different. Rotary Junkie from RKM went with the stock transmission, while Lion's Den's Dragonistic left off the ugly but effective aerodynamic parts. The tuners seem to have gone in completely different directions to make this car go fast, with vastly different setups on the LSD, as well as in toe & camber. Both of these cars were among these two tune shop's early GT5 releases.

Ikeamobile from RKM Motorsports
Final after test completed: HP: 935 Wt: 1524 PP: 623

RS 6X Predator Edition from Lion's Den Performance
Final after test completed: HP: 935 Wt: 1524 PP: 615

5 lap first impression:

Ikeamobile Best Lap Time: 1:30.886
Thoughts: The RKM model had the disadvantage of going first in my test. Usually, that doesn't have too much of an effect, but this car takes so long to decellerate for a corner, I found myself losing a lot of time trying to figure out a good brake marker on the track. The cornering is fairly solid for a vehicle this heavy, and this car has plenty of power. At first run, I would say the glaring weakness is on braking and corner entry.

RS 6X Predator Edition Best Lap Time: 1:29.888
Thoughts: Thanks to the RKM test, I had a pretty good feel for my brake markers for this car, and that helped a lot. Braking is still a major weakness, obviously, you can't tune out the effect of high speed + heavy car. This car felt a little looser on corner exits, and almost acting like a FR car rather than a AWD platform. Hard throttle would get the back tires to spin a bit and almost put the car into a drift, and 2nd gear is to be avoided in pretty much any corner.

After a few more races:

Ikeamobile Best Lap Time: 1:28.907
RS 6X Predator Edition Best Lap Time: 1:28.628

Comparison:

Braking: Both cars were fairly even on braking. They both took forever to slow down thanks to the cars weight, and both liked to slide if pushed too deep. The Ikeamobile would have the edge in that the car seemed to recover better from the slide, thanks to a little more pull from the front tires.

Speed: Again, both cars were pretty even here. 2nd gear was fairly useless for either car, given that the torque and hp would easily spin the tires. Thankfully, the power-band is pretty wide, so 3rd gear had plenty of pull coming out of the 50-60 MpH corners.

Low-speed cornering: The Ikeamobile gets the edge here over the Predator. Driving these two tunes was like driving two different cars. The 4WD action of the Ikeamobile pulled the car out of the slow turns with the minimum of slip, while the Predator like to spin the rear tires and get the back end out. Although usually controllable, time and speed were lost on the exit. Mid-corner speeds were pretty similar for both cars.

High-speed cornering: LDP gets the advantage in high-speed corners for almost the same reason it loses in low-speed corners. The RKM tune had a bit of 4WD understeer on the fast turns, and slow transitions at speed, while the Predator pushed through the high speed turns a little faster, and seemed a bit more responsive on transitions.

Overall: LDP has put together a slightly faster car, with a price. It is a bit more difficult to handle, as it feels halfway between a 4WD and RWD, and as such, is difficult to be consistent. The line between fast and dirt is a pretty fine one in this car. The RKM tune is consistant, and easier to avoid mistakes in, but a bit slower overall.

It's interesting that these tunes make the car feel completely different, but my lap times in both were so close, it's hard for me to appoint a winner. If I had to choose a car for a fast, flat course, I'd take the Predator. For a course with more elevation changes and low-speed turns, I'll stick with the more stable Ikeamobile.
 
LDP Banshee 3000 Predator Edition
(360hp/268kw @ 6,700rpm) (404Nm/298ft-lbs @ 5,200rpm) (1310kg) (481 PP)


tsukubacircuitv.jpg

LDP Commodore GTS-R Predator Edition
(526hp/392kw @ 6,000rpm) (745Nm/550ft-lbs @ 4,500rpm) (1349kg) (548PP)


thetopgeartesttrack.jpg

Both of the following tunes have updated gearboxes now, I hope to release an Autozam later this weekend.


Edit:
RS6 Avant Shootout
RKM Motorsports vs Lion's Den Performance

RS6Avant.jpg


(

Thanks for the review mate, I'm sure Phil will enjoy reading it when he sees it as it was his tune.:) Since Phil won't be doing requests any more, feel free to make a request to me for any car you want tuned.👍
 
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👍👍:tup:Not been on GTP for a while, and i come back to find that the KING is back..... awesome man, love your tunes.👍👍👍
 
Just to let you guys know, Paulie slipped into GME's lounge yesterday where I was doing some circuit tuning for my garage, brought out his Camaro ZL1 (which can be found in here) and on Sport Soft tyres, got a blistering 1:13 laptime at Deep Forest.

All I can say is bravo to you sir, your driving and tuning skills are in perfect harmony. 👍
 
Just to let you guys know, Paulie slipped into GME's lounge yesterday where I was doing some circuit tuning for my garage, brought out his Camaro ZL1 (which can be found in here) and on Sport Soft tyres, got a blistering 1:13 laptime at Deep Forest.

All I can say is bravo to you sir, your driving and tuning skills are in perfect harmony. 👍

I don't think my ZL1 got that fast, maybe a 1'14 or 1'15 in that I can't remember. It was my soon to be released ultimate 600 PP Camaro that nailed a 1'12. But thanks man, I'll never touch your superb drag racing skills.👍 It was at your track day I revised those 2 car's gear ratios and greatly improved the cars, thanks for the track time.:)
 
LDP Kelly Brothers Camaro
(509hp/380kw @ 6,500rpm) (632Nm/466ft-lbs @ 5,000rpm) (1210kg) (604PP)


caperingperipheryi.jpg

Description: Given the Kelly brothers', of V8 Supercar fame, love of Chevrolets and our desire to produce a Camaro track car, we got together with them to produce this Predator Edition X. Starting with a regular SS, we completely stripped everything non-essential and even replaced all the body panels with carbon fibre. The motor is still the same LS3, tweaked slightly and running equal length headers to give it a strikingly similar engine note to that of the Jack Daniels V8 Supercars. Power comes in at just over 500hp while weight is a low 1210kg. With a roll cage, big brake kit, semi-slick tyres, and extensive drivertrain, chassis and suspension work we've produced a Camaro that will lap Nurburgring in just over 6'30.

Base Model: Chevrolet Camaro SS '10

Parts to Purchase:

Tuning Shop:
Rigidity Improvement
Sports ECU
Carbon Propellor Shaft
Fully Customisable LSD
Sports Soft Tyres

GT Auto:
Oil Change
Racing Modification
Restore Body Rigidity (Where applicable)
Engine Overhaul (Where applicable)

Tuner's Notes:
Shift at redline.
The tune was made primarily for Sports Tyres, however I have used it on Race Tyres and it still works buts needs a delicate touch.
Makes a really great 600 PP racer with a slight power limitation.
Tuned with all aids off except ABS on 1.

Settings:
1) General Purpose Dry Weather Setup
_________________________________________
General Purpose Dry Weather Setup

Body/Chassis:
Ballast Amount (kg): 0
Ballast Position: 0
Aerodynamics: 35/60

Engine:
Power Limiter: 100%

Transmission:
1st: 2.994
2nd: 2.037
3rd: 1.572
4th: 1.278
5th: 1.061
6th: 0.902
Final: 3.361
Max Speed: 340km/hr
Please Note: You must set the "Max Speed" setting first before adjusting the ratios. If your ratios were previously adjusted, reset to default before inputting my settings.

Drivetrain: (front/rear)
Initial Torque: 0/5
Acceleration: 0/54
Deceleration: 0/5

Suspension: (front/rear)
Ride Height: -25/-24
Spring Rates (kgf/mm): 9.4/7.2
Dampers Extension: 6/7
Dampers Compression: 4/3
Anti-Roll Bars: 6/4
Camber: 1.8/1.4
Toe: -0.12/+0.10

Brake Balance (front/rear): 5/5

todd__rick_walking_car_06_20090212_1860133015.jpg
 
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Edit:

Thanks for the review mate, I'm sure Phil will enjoy reading it when he sees it as it was his tune.:) Since Phil won't be doing requests any more, feel free to make a request to me for any car you want tuned.👍

QFT and my car performed exactly as I wanted it to, considering it's prime focus was the Nordschleife which is of course a very high speed circuit. On that basis, mission complete for me 👍.
 
LDP Wam Bam Autozam Predator Edition
(151hp/113kw @ 7,400rpm) (160Nm/118ft-lbs @ 5,400rpm) (647kg) (453PP)


sangimignanotownsquareg.jpg

Description: Lion's Den Performance took one look at the Autozam and saw something that perhaps most people do not, potential. A small mid-engined lightweight that would surely do well with the right level of expertise in the setup. Well expertise we have, so we got to work. The initial plan was to throw in a rotary out of an RX-7, however the department of transportation refused this idea so we re-modelled our targets with the car. Sitting in the back is the same 3cyl motor stroked out to 700cc and extensively worked over, producing 151hp, a whopping 215hp/litre! Unfortunately that power comes with a price, a very peaky power band. With an attention to weight savings, the power to weight ratio is rather respectable for a car of this genre to say the least, but 151hp is still only 151hp and that gives it an average top end. We've put our minds to the task to ensure it handles its new-found power, and the result is a Kei car capable of running with the big boys of Japanese sports cars such as the Supra, Evo and RX-7 on certain tracks.

Base Model: Mazda Autozam AZ-1 '92

Parts to Purchase:

Tuning Shop:
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Window Weight Reduction
Rigidity Improvement
Carbon Bonnet
Engine Tuning Stage 3
Sports ECU
Sports Intake Manifold
Racing Air Filter
Titanium Racing Exhaust System
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Sports Catalytic Converter
High RPM Range Turbo Kit
Fully Customisable Transmission
Twin Plate Clutch
Semi Racing Flywheel
Fully Customisable LSD
Fully Customisable Suspension Kit
Sports Soft Tyres

GT Auto:
Oil Change
Front Splitter
Rear Wing
Restore Body Rigidity (Where applicable)
Engine Overhaul (Where applicable)

Tuner's Notes:
Shift at 8,000rpm.
Not much to say, extremely chuckable and not enough power to get in serious trouble unless you're being crazy.
Tuned with all aids off except ABS on 1.

Settings:
1) Short circuit tune, eg. Monaco, Eiger, Tsukuba etc.
_________________________________________
Short circuit tune

Body/Chassis:
Ballast Amount (kg): 0
Ballast Position: 0
Aerodynamics: 0/20

Engine:
Power Limiter: 100%

Transmission:
1st: 2.755
2nd: 1.800
3rd: 1.370
4th: 1.077
5th: 0.866
Final: 4.705
Max Speed: 250km/hr
Please Note: You must set the "Max Speed" setting first before adjusting the ratios. If your ratios were previously adjusted, reset to default before inputting my settings.

Drivetrain: (front/rear)
Initial Torque: 0/14
Acceleration: 0/50
Deceleration: 0/35

Suspension: (front/rear)
Ride Height: -20/-19
Spring Rates (kgf/mm): 5.5/4.4
Dampers Extension: 4/6
Dampers Compression: 2/3
Anti-Roll Bars: 6/4
Camber: 2.0/1.8
Toe: -0.14/+0.20

Brake Balance (front/rear): 8/5
 
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LDP Kelly Brothers Camaro
(509hp/380kw @ 6,500rpm) (632Nm/466ft-lbs @ 5,000rpm) (1210kg) (604PP)


caperingperipheryi.jpg

Description: Given the Kelly brothers', of V8 Supercar fame, love of Chevrolets and our desire to produce a Camaro track car, we got together with them to produce this Predator Edition X. Starting with a regular SS, we completely stripped everything non-essential and even replaced all the body panels with carbon fibre. The motor is still the same LS3, tweaked slightly and running equal length headers to give it a strikingly similar engine note to that of the Jack Daniels V8 Supercars. Power comes in at just over 500hp while weight is a low 1210kg. With a roll cage, big brake kit, semi-slick tyres, and extensive drivertrain, chassis and suspension work we've produced a Camaro that will lap Nurburgring in just over 6'30.

Base Model: Chevrolet Camaro SS '10

Parts to Purchase:

Tuning Shop:
Rigidity Improvement
Sports ECU
Carbon Propellor Shaft
Fully Customisable LSD
Sports Soft Tyres

GT Auto:
Oil Change
Racing Modification
Restore Body Rigidity (Where applicable)
Engine Overhaul (Where applicable)

Tuner's Notes:
Shift at redline.
The tune was made primarily for Sports Tyres, however I have used it on Race Tyres and it still works buts needs a delicate touch.
Makes a really great 600 PP racer with a slight power limitation.
Tuned with all aids off except ABS on 1.

Settings:
1) General Purpose Dry Weather Setup
_________________________________________
General Purpose Dry Weather Setup

Body/Chassis:
Ballast Amount (kg): 0
Ballast Position: 0
Aerodynamics: 35/60

Engine:
Power Limiter: 100%

Transmission:
1st: 2.994
2nd: 2.037
3rd: 1.572
4th: 1.278
5th: 1.061
6th: 0.902
Final: 3.361
Max Speed: 340km/hr
Please Note: You must set the "Max Speed" setting first before adjusting the ratios. If your ratios were previously adjusted, reset to default before inputting my settings.

Drivetrain: (front/rear)
Initial Torque: 0/5
Acceleration: 0/54
Deceleration: 0/5

Suspension: (front/rear)
Ride Height: -25/-24
Spring Rates (kgf/mm): 9.4/7.2
Dampers Extension: 6/7
Dampers Compression: 4/3
Anti-Roll Bars: 6/4
Camber: 1.8/1.4
Toe: -0.12/+0.10

Brake Balance (front/rear): 5/5

todd__rick_walking_car_06_20090212_1860133015.jpg

Hi , i'm impressed by the amount of front camber this car have on the picture ,also by the rear ride height. What kind of tracks or races are they doing with this car ??
 
It's a V8 Supercar, it's a touring car in regular circuits. I don't know if that's an ape or not, some teams have regular road cars dressed up like their race cars on display at events.
 
thanks for this! Using a slightly modified tuning for your Camaro RM @ Nurb GP/F. Working great!!! Very much appreciated
 
Paulie, Can i put in a request for a handling tune for the AE86 toyota corolla. Everyone has a drift tune but not a tune to make it a handy racer. I`ve got a setup for it,but it seems no matter what i do it is really tail happy under power. For example Tsukuba last turn anything other than 1/2 throttle and the tail steps out,same story on low/med speed turns say autum ring`s turns,the back just steps out quickly and won`t come back or just drifts sideways for ever and ever. Thanks Phill
 
What kind of performance levels are you looking for? If it's around the 450 PP mark I'll make a Group X version for it then that kills 2 birds with one stone.
 
My AE86 would be close to a predator spec. I like my cars streetable and not tuned into a hand grenade with all available power upgrades thrown at it. It has 202hp and tips the scales at around 950kg (i think). I have used it online in 450pp races (it could do with some grunt on the straights TBH) but can`t keep up due to the tail happiness out of corners it has.

I have mucked around with the LSD and have it currently set at 12/22/8 which seems to help a bit. Also i have tinkered with the rear end and softened it up to help it squat and grip under accel. I think it`s at 6.0kg 4/4 and 3 for sway bar. Camber is 0.5 or 1.0 and toe is .20
 
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