Group C? GT1? LMP? (The Le Mans car class designations, sort of explained...)

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Lots of peeps have been asking on various forums about the GT4 "Le Mans cars" (AKA "prototypes") and the classes they fall (or fell) into. To the best of my knowledge, here's a general explanation:

Since 1983, the "prototype" cars raced at Le Mans and other endurance races around the world have fallen into three main class designations. From 1983 to 1992 the Class was "Group C", but keep in mind that the Group C rules were often revised and towards the end were completely changed. After that the class became "GT1" (not to be confused with the new incarnation of GT1, which is racing versions of true street machines like Corvettes, Maranellos, and the Aston DB-9), then "LMP" (for Le Mans Prototype).

As of 2005, the rules were tweaked again, rendering the Audi R8 obsolete (although R8s were allowed to run with weight and power handicaps, and won Le Mans again anyway). Keep in mind that there are two prototype classes: LMP1 and the smaller-engined LMP2 (sometimes shown as "LM1" and "LM2"). Download your very own copy of the new rules from here:

http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/live/pages/reglements_gb.html


"Carbsmith" posted this on the IGN forum a while ago:

"The Toyota 88C-V was built for the era of no engine rules, when the only limit was the amount of fuel used over a race distance period, as were the Mazda 787B (although it was classified as the slower Group C2 category, and should be the second slowest, if not slowest, of the GT4 Le Mans cars), Sauber, Jaguar XJR, Nissan R89C, and Nissan R92CP. The Peugeot 905 was built for the 3.5L Group C, which ditched the fuel limit and used F1-based engines. This was super-expensive and killed the class, leaving a dead zone with a transition period in 1994, during which an obsolete Group C car, a Porsche 962LM rebadged as a Dauer, won outright in the GT class.

"In 1995, the LMP and GT1 classes became the clear primary classes, with 1996 marking the real beginning of the GT1 boom, which produced such supposedly street legal super race cars as the R390GT, Panoz GTR-1, McLaren F1 GTR Longtail, Mercedes CLK-GTR (and LM successor, which is actually what GT4's "GTR" is), and Toyota GT-One. Although more advanced, these cars had much less downforce and horsepower than their Group C forebearers, due to flat bottom rules limiting ground effects, and engine intake restrictors.

"In 1999, the GT1 class threw away its street car vestige, and became LM-GTP. The GT-One raced in this class in the year it appears in GT3 and GT4.

"In 2000, LMP rules changed drastically, pretty much obsoleting 1999 cars (which were still very legal however). The Audi R8 came to dominate for the next few years, and closed-cockpit prototypes disappeared except for the Bentley, which wasn't near fast enough until 2003, when the Audi factory team took over racing of it, and the Volkswagen Audi Group re-focused on winning for Bentley."

This page explains Group C, sort of:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/1403/groupc.htm

Okay, everything cleared up now? Yeah, right...
______________________

BTW, here's another pretty good page showing the development of aerodynamics:

http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisbnelson/nature/cars/aero/aerodynamics.htm

And here's what happens when the aero isn't kosher:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR1.html
 
What an impressive amount of information, congrats, great job !! 👍

Reading the articles and seeing the pictures makes me missing the Porshes 956 and 962, if ever they could be in GT4....
I think PD could also have included the different models of Jags, Nissan or Mazda. I mean, after having build one, there are just a few differences between a Jag xjr9 and a xjr12, but that would make 2 beasts to drive instead of one. As they did that for the Skylines (about 15 "all the same" different versions in GT4 ), they would have been well inspired to do the same with group c cars..... (I'm dreaming ...)
 
As much as I like the Group C era of cars, it would have been nice for PD to include some pre-Group C cars, maybe around the time when the Porsche 917 was racing. I know we have the GT40 race car from the late sixties but some seventies LM cars would have been nice.
 
markc123
The Toyota 7 is a CANAM car is it not?

Plus the Chapparal Hoover car.

YES, too bad they're the only ones in the game! :mischievous: Sure would have been nice if PD could have included 4 more & made a series for us to race them in! :grumpy:
Oh yeh, I forgot PD did give us the Daihatsu Midget II Race :indiff: Racing "Lawnmowers" would have been more fun! 👎

:bowdown: Zardoz for all the GREAT Info! ...O.G. :D
 
Group C Fanatic
As much as I like the Group C era of cars, it would have been nice for PD to include some pre-Group C cars, maybe around the time when the Porsche 917 was racing. I know we have the GT40 race car from the late sixties but some seventies LM cars would have been nice.

The porshces were making well over 1300 HP stock, it would have balancing issues, escudo all over again.

The Charrapal is a sucker car not a hover car, you had it the wrong way round.
 
slipknot10wa123
The porshces were making well over 1300 HP stock, it would have balancing issues, escudo all over again.

The Charrapal is a sucker car not a hover car, you had it the wrong way round.



He said "Hoover", as in Hoover (brand name) vacuum sweepers, as in sucking a vacuum, as in sucker car.




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slipknot10wa123
The porshces were making well over 1300 HP stock,
This VERY Much depends on your interpretation of the word "Stock." If you consider "Purpose Built" 12 cylinder Racing Engines (Did you know they experimented with a "Flat-16"?) with Turbos the diameter of Pizza Pans "Stock" , then...YES, they were "Stock."

If Memory serves (& I'm losing more of it every day! :mischievous: ) The Fans at the rear of the Chaparral weren't driven off the engine but rather a 2-Stroke Snowmobile Powerplant! :eek: Only ONE of the reasons it was banned shortly after it's debut...O.G. :D
 
Old Geezer
If Memory serves (& I'm losing more of it every day! :mischievous: ) The Fans at the rear of the Chaparral weren't driven off the engine but rather a 2-Stroke Snowmobile Powerplant! :eek: Only ONE of the reasons it was banned shortly after it's debut...O.G. :D


Correct. As I recall, they were Kawasaki engines, but don't bet the house on that.




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This was truly a great write up. I've had many questions about these group c cars and their history, but now, most of them have been answered. Thank you very much for the links, it's quite a shame that PD missed out on the Jaguar XJR-14. I would have loved to see it in GT4 or maybe now, GT5.
 
Group C Fanatic
As much as I like the Group C era of cars, it would have been nice for PD to include some pre-Group C cars, maybe around the time when the Porsche 917 was racing. I know we have the GT40 race car from the late sixties but some seventies LM cars would have been nice.

it would be nice if they had these different
era's of LM cars and had true restrictions on
the races to ensure balance and competitive
atmosphere.

i think PD should include horsepower and
weight limitations for some of the races in
the next gran turismo to have a more genuine
realistic feel.
 
Old Geezer
This VERY Much depends on your interpretation of the word "Stock." If you consider "Purpose Built" 12 cylinder Racing Engines (Did you know they experimented with a "Flat-16"?) with Turbos the diameter of Pizza Pans "Stock" , then...YES, they were "Stock."

If Memory serves (& I'm losing more of it every day! :mischievous: ) The Fans at the rear of the Chaparral weren't driven off the engine but rather a 2-Stroke Snowmobile Powerplant! :eek: Only ONE of the reasons it was banned shortly after it's debut...O.G. :D

The 2J actually raced thye entire 1970 season, but its high weight and poor reliability prevented it from being competitive with the all-conquering McLarens, which had won every single race the previous season. After 1970, the car was banned because the FIA determined that the Lexan shirts on the side of the car constituted a "moving aerodynamic device", which was illegal after 1969. After his car was banned, Jim Hall, the creator of Chapparals, lost interest in the series and quit.
 
JoeyL
The 2J actually raced thye entire 1970 season, but its high weight and poor reliability prevented it from being competitive with the all-conquering McLarens, which had won every single race the previous season. After 1970, the car was banned because the FIA determined that the Lexan shirts on the side of the car constituted a "moving aerodynamic device", which was illegal after 1969. After his car was banned, Jim Hall, the creator of Chapparals, lost interest in the series and quit.
THANX JoeyL: That whole deal happened while I was stationed overseas (RVN) plus that many years having passed doesn't help the memory much! :lol: ...O.G. :D
 
May I add, just for completeness, The LMP cars were devided into two catagories, The LM 900 and LM 675. Later, an extra class near identical to the LM 900 was added to accomodate the Bentley Exp Speed 8, no other cars have made use of the classification.

The numbers stand for the minimum allowed weight along with a host of other regulation differences. The LM 675's were meant to be 'nearly' as fast as the LM 900's but that didn't realy materialise. The cars from the GT class (Oreca Viper, Corvette C5R and Ferrari 550) were actualy faster in the last few years.

The Rules are transitioning at the moment to make way for the LMP1 and LMP2 classes (Simmaler in rules to LM 900 and LM 675 respectively).

As far as I know there are no LM 675's in GT4, most cars are either Group C cars or LM 900. Correct me if I'm wrong...
 
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