Pagani Zonda R '09

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Pagani Zonda R '09

Setup updated - 12 feb 2011
Italic values are old values, green bold values are new

Cylinder : 5987 cm3
Power : 970 bph @ 7800 rpm
Torque : 872 Nm @ 7800 rpm
Transmission : MR
Weigth : 1070 kg

Weigth-to-power ratio : 1.103

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Well, I'm quite sad about the story of this car : I tried all my best to remove the toe and driving helps other than ABS 1 but I failed.

After 1000km on Rome I though I found the ultimate grip suspension for this car but after a few spins on Suzuka, I decided a few radical changes : open LSD, long gearbox, some toe (eek), a disminished rear camber and some few TCS (eek again) - the full story is in the ZZII topic.

The result are here : 0'55.8 in high speed ring, or, 4 second better than the Veyron if you prefer.
She can hold the long curves surprisingly well without the use of a high LSD or high camber. 340 km/h in this long high speed ring curve and could be better if the car could accel more at this point of the race. She don't have to brake on Indianapolis' superspeedway, and win this race at Like the Wind easily, the other is difficult because of the road's dust.

This setup can't be complete until GT5 doesn't have individual gear settings. 1st, 2nd and 3rd shift should be longer to avoid wheel spin and 4, 5 ,6 shorter.

This car have been tuned for 1199.7 km now. I painted it white. It's dirty.

Any comments, improvements or suggestions are welcomed as usual.

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All parts/oil change

Body/Chassis
- Dynamics (Front/Rear) : 40 / 65

Transmission
- Top Speed : 400 km/h

Drive-train
Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
- Initial Torque : -/9 (from - / 5)
- Acceleration Sensitivity : -/6 (from - / 5)
- Braking Sensitivity : -/12 (from - / 11)

Torque Sensing Center Differential (Front/Rear)
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Suspension
Suspension (Front/Rear)
- Ride Height : -18/-15
- Spring Rate : 13.8/16.2
- Dampers (Extension) : 3/5
- Dampers (Compression) : 5/10
- Anti-Roll Bars : 4/6

Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
- Camber angle : +0.5/+0.7
- Toe Angle : -0.05/+0.12 (from +0.00 / +0.12)

Brakes (Front/Rear)
- Brake Balance 3/3

Drive aids
- ABS : 1
- TCS : 3 (fairly optional)
Else all off

Tires
- Racing Soft/Soft mandatory, accel is too high without, and I can't remove some.

Tuning circuit
- Rome <-- 1'06 first lap, others 1'02.8 or 1'03 easy, with no TCS.
- High Speed Ring <-- 0'55.831
- Nürburgring <-- 6'56 (@923 bph (oil) + I know I sucked, I could do 6'30 I think.)
- Suzuka
- Indianapolis superspeedway
- La Sarthe '09 / no chicanes

Tip
- until individual gears are not setable, don't touch the gearbox. The 1st, 2nd and even 3rd gear of this box are set too low, so you migth want to use ASM to learn the car. ASM can be switched off when low on oil (923bph) without any noticeable problems.
- brakes can be put at 4/3 or 3/2. I just can't decide so I made a mix.
- for fun, remove TCS and put rear damper ext to 6 and voila ! you have a drift Zonda that auto-come back straigth in drifting when you release the gaz. But corner exit is dangerous so I didn't choose that (I'd so much want it ).
- may suspension autoturns sometimes, as the LSD is opened. I think this car is perfectly balanced just because of this.

Back to the GT5 shop

Anyone else tried this yet?

willstuart

Anyone else tried this yet?

Click to expand...

Please try on a few different track because I know on dirty roads like Daytona or Suzuka, this setup is a little unstable. You still can upgrade the TCS if you don't like it, at the cost of a lot of acceleration (but then you can upgrade the gearbox).

I updated the brakes to 3/3.

Not had a chance to play GT yet since i'v read this but i will try it out and get back to you.

I tried this tune, and maybe its me but your heights seems different from what the car settings can be set to. So I made them not quite all the way down.

This spec was nice in a straight line but around any corners, give some gas, even feathering it and the back end swings around. Very hard to corner. Also your top speed setting didn't work on High Speed Ring, so for that track set it to around 220mph.

Cheers

Mahgwa

I tried this tune, and maybe its me but your heights seems different from what the car settings can be set to. So I made them not quite all the way down.

This spec was nice in a straight line but around any corners, give some gas, even feathering it and the back end swings around. Very hard to corner. Also your top speed setting didn't work on High Speed Ring, so for that track set it to around 220mph.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Top speed setting is normal, I always give the biggest speed the car can acheive with the setup, then you guys have to adjust it with the track you play. Like this, if you want to acheive top speed on say LaSarthe/no chicane, no need to use more km/h (and accel power) on the gearbox.

This car yet have oversteering issues, I know. For the ride height, if you made it higher, remove a few g on each spring. Something like -5% for +10. That would correct some of the oversteer at corner exit since spring rates are set already very hard. Alternatvly, you could set the gearbox higher than reasonable : like I said the 1st/2nd/3rd of the gearbox of this car have a problem that can be solved only with inidvidual gear tuning (long 123, short 456).
If you made it lower (i didn't understand what you did), your car's springs will hit the ride and make the driving unpredictable. There you can add some SR %.

On this setup, the RH is designed to be able to come over the last Rome bumper without touching it...

You can skip gears too, it's almost a group C car. Or you could put some ASM. Or... Maybe this setup doesn't suit your driving, there's a lot of Zonda around these forums...

BlueShift

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Pagani Zonda R '09

Cylinder : 5987 cm3
Power : 970 bph @ 7800 rpm
Torque : 872 Nm @ 7800 rpm
Transmission : MR
Weigth : 1070 kg

Weigth-to-power ratio : 1.103

All parts/oil change

Body/Chassis
- Dynamics (Front/Rear) : 40 / 65

Transmission
- Top Speed : 400 km/h

Drive-train
Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
- Initial Torque : -/5
- Acceleration Sensitivity : -/5
- Braking Sensitivity : -/11

---

Suspension
Suspension (Front/Rear)
- Ride Height : -18/-15
- Spring Rate : 13.8/16.2
- Dampers (Extension) : 3/5
- Dampers (Compression) : 5/10
- Anti-Roll Bars : 4/6

Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
- Camber angle : +0.5/+0.7
- Toe Angle : +0.0/+0.12

Brakes (Front/Rear)
- Brake Balance 3/3

Drive aids
- ABS : 1
- TCS : 3
Else all off

Tires
- Racing Soft/Soft mandatory.

Tip
- until individual gears are not setable, don't touch the gearbox. The 1st, 2nd and even 3rd gear of this box are set too low, so you migth want to use ASM to learn the car. ASM can be switched off when low on oil (923bph) without any noticeable problems.
- brakes can be put at 4/3 or 3/2. I just can't decide so I made a mix.
- for fun, remove TCS and put rear damper ext to 6 and voila ! you have a drift Zonda that auto-come back straigth in drifting when you release the gaz. But corner exit is dangerous so I didn't choose that (I'd so much want it ).
- may suspension autoturns sometimes, as the LSD is opened. I think this car is perfectly balanced just because of this.

Back to the shop

Click to expand...

Last but certainly not least, Blueshift comes to light...
This is the last of 4 Zonda tunes I've tested tonight, and I'm quite pleased to say...................... YOU WIN!

I do need to mention, I used a basic engine, tranny and assists set up for all 4 tunes, as to fairly compare them. Zero engine upgrades(775hp), tranny top speed remained constant(230mph) and I use zero assists(ABS@1). Oh, p.s. I forgot to change the brake balance from the last tune, so I actually ran this lap with a 8/7 brake Balance, my bad.

Test Track: Grand Valley Speedway
Best Lap: 1:40.540
All 4 tunes compared here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4589829#post4589829

Let it be known, this was no fluke. The .540 was run on the 2nd lap, and then on the 4th lap I followed it up with a .777 and then again on lap 5 finishing just behind the ghost again.

Entry: Well, as odd as it sounds this tune felt stiff, and based on the first few corners I was not expecting anything spectacular. The car turns in with what feels like just an average entry. Nothing to complain about, or praise, it's just smooth. It felt as if it lacked turn in, but that's due to comparing the previous tune which had the most turn-in of the 4 tunes.

Center: Again, nothing special. I don't know if I'm just getting bored of this car and track, or if the tune is just that much under the radar. The car again, was smooth, but felt as if it lacked the rotation I'd like to see, but I can't really say it had an understeer problem that I've felt with the other 3. It appears to just be extremely balanced through the first 2 parts of the corner.

Exit: Here, the tune is unable to sneak this by me, I'm getting some understeer. I'm almost excited to have something to complain about. The understeer wasn't as prominent as the previous 3 tunes, but was present. Although, after seeing the lap times, I can only assume this is because I was carrying higher speeds through exit. While I remained slightly confused as to what just happened as I saw my previous record broken, the final corner of the track seems to reveal the entire tune. While not nearly as easy to make it full throttle through this corner, the car will do it if you hit your marks. Again, without any squealing, fighting or sideways motion, the car just kinda cruises along. Hit your mark and full throttle is fine. Miss the entry a hair, and you're forced to burp the gas, orrrrrrr take a ride on the green portion of the track

Overall... Great job. My assumption is that your LSD settings matched up to me, far better than any of the others, including the custom one I threw together. I agree a completely open rear end isn't optimal very often, but for me, this car and this track, it was. I did find myself lacking a bit of off corner bite, so I'll be bumping up the Accel or Initial a minuscule amount to help, as I noticed bouncing off the limiter far more often than the other tunes. But I was definitely able to get back to the gas harder then the other tunes, which helped give confidence when giving gas while still turning. The only thing I could ask for, is a small amount of more turn on exit, which I may cheat with lowering the ride heights, swapping the rake and dropping the front ARB. Then that touch of bite, with the upped LSD accel.

Thank you and congrats!

I used this Pagani R Tune today for a Pagani Zonda LM Race Car. Amazing! The car felt like it was glued to the track. I was so fast in curves that I turned off the turbo and raced again to make the competition more fair, but still blew the competition away. Using racing softs, the car slides ever so slightly in a tight turn but stays under control. Great Tune, sir!

Pete

pmgolf

I used this Pagani R Tune today for a Pagani Zonda LM Race Car. Amazing! The car felt like it was glued to the track. I was so fast in curves that I turned off the turbo and raced again to make the competition more fair, but still blew the competition away. Using racing softs, the car slides ever so slightly in a tight turn but stays under control. Great Tune, sir!

Pete

Click to expand...

Oh, thank you

Now I forged out a LSD theory I should apply to it and see if it works

BlueShift

Oh, thank you

Now I forged out a LSD theory I should apply to it and see if it works

Click to expand...

Blueshift,
I have just testet your tuning guide from the top of this page, but for the Zonda C12S 7.3 and it's deffinitely made my evening a bit more comfortabel. Thanks.
I usually turn of all help including ABS, but this car... It seems to just flip a coin wether to kill you going off to the left or to the right. Straight-line braking is unknown i guess. HELP!
Although theres a difference from the Zonda R to the C12S, I find them almost equal to "control", but it's just borderline to touch the brakes right now. Have you got any ideas for this? I would appreciate if toe in/out is left out of the equation, since I think it's making the overall feeling of the car a tad weird...

Thanks, J.

What_Apex?

Blueshift,
I have just testet your tuning guide from the top of this page, but for the Zonda C12S 7.3 and it's deffinitely made my evening a bit more comfortabel. Thanks.
I usually turn of all help including ABS, but this car... It seems to just flip a coin wether to kill you going off to the left or to the right. Straight-line braking is unknown i guess. HELP!
Although theres a difference from the Zonda R to the C12S, I find them almost equal to "control", but it's just borderline to touch the brakes right now. Have you got any ideas for this? I would appreciate if toe in/out is left out of the equation, since I think it's making the overall feeling of the car a tad weird...

Thanks, J.

Click to expand...

The problem is if having toe 0/0 on that car, I need more camber at the rear, so the LSD I used is messed up. It also helped a lot removing some TCS.

I need to redo her LSD anyway but can't do before tomorow nigth (@ gmt +1). I'm like you, usually there's no toe on my cars. And no driving aids but ABS1, just to limit throtle slipping at acceleration, with the DS3.

Blueshift,

I'll keep an eye on this thread.

👍

I just want you to know that 5 initial torque and 5 accel sens does not make the lsd "open" but moreso lock in really hard after a little while of one tire fire.

having it 30/30 makes it not kick in as hard so you wont go out of control when it does as well as making it have a bit of an open diff

Anybody try this tune on the ring?

Matt I tired this last night, you was online but not racing.

I cracked a 6:05 with it but I feel the car is off to me. (Nurb no aids, no tc, abs 3) Going back to freeing the car up like I car I can produce 5:59's.

Note: Matt I seen your 5:45.019 status...if you did that you are sick homie

What_Apex?

Blueshift,
I have just testet your tuning guide from the top of this page, but for the Zonda C12S 7.3 and it's deffinitely made my evening a bit more comfortabel. Thanks.
I usually turn of all help including ABS, but this car... It seems to just flip a coin wether to kill you going off to the left or to the right. Straight-line braking is unknown i guess. HELP!
Although theres a difference from the Zonda R to the C12S, I find them almost equal to "control", but it's just borderline to touch the brakes right now. Have you got any ideas for this? I would appreciate if toe in/out is left out of the equation, since I think it's making the overall feeling of the car a tad weird...

Thanks, J.

Click to expand...

A small problem was with no toe in front but toe in rear. Another one was a too big difference between decel and initial value (esp in S curves, you could loose control).
I redone the LSD but for the C12S, I can't say braking was improved. If you have problems, try to raise the decel at very high values, like 50-52, keeping the intial between accel and decel and it should be cool. Try 22/5/55 ? ABS 1 helps a lot too (I play with a Sixaxis, maybe with pedals I could remove this too... I don't know.)

Poppins

I just want you to know that 5 initial torque and 5 accel sens does not make the lsd "open" but moreso lock in really hard after a little while of one tire fire.

Click to expand...

Maybe, i have to check this out this week-end. I'm not sure about the words, but anyway... they are words.

Poppins

having it 30/30 makes it not kick in as hard so you wont go out of control when it does as well as making it have a bit of an open diff

Click to expand...

It's crystal clear you're playing with TCS, I tried what you said

Setting her up without TCS plays a big role in the stability of the car so I continued with this method. You can drive this car without TCS... Try it !

KForceOH

Matt I tired this last night, you was online but not racing.

I cracked a 6:05 with it but I feel the car is off to me. (Nurb no aids, no tc, abs 3) Going back to freeing the car up like I car I can produce 5:59's.

Note: Matt I seen your 5:45.019 status...if you did that you are sick homie

Click to expand...

These are sick times guys ! I'm very interested about both your feedback on the setup update !

I dont use TCS and I never have and never will.

Im just saying that if you say set it at 30 initial torque and 30 accel it wont kick in as hard (because the torque is higher) which will prevent having the 30 accel cause oversteer or drifting. Having it at 5 initial torque is just making it kick in hard and 5 for accel setting makes it more like an open diff, so if you turned up the accel setting to 30 it would lock better but would cause oversteer so turning the initial torque up will compensate for that by making it not kick in as hard

Poppins

I dont use TCS and I never have and never will.

Im just saying that if you say set it at 30 initial torque and 30 accel it wont kick in as hard (because the torque is higher) which will prevent having the 30 accel cause oversteer or drifting. Having it at 5 initial torque is just making it kick in hard and 5 for accel setting makes it more like an open diff, so if you turned up the accel setting to 30 it would lock better but would cause oversteer so turning the initial torque up will compensate for that by making it not kick in as hard

Click to expand...

I tried what you say and it makes the whole car more violent and sensitive at accel... That makes awful tight corner exit.

Okay for the TCS. Another question that would explain it all : do you play @+/-970hp/1070kg ?

Who needs TCS? All that does is slow down the throttle response from the time you press it, I find it kills any consistency I have because the response time from me releasing the throttle to the time I press the throttle and the car responds is so exaggerated it throws away any sense of natural timing a player may ever develop. Turn it off, leave it off, forget you ever knew what it was and you'll thank me for it later.

My analogy for the guy using TCS is he's is the guy with 200ms lag in a Quake room where everyone else has 30-50ms ping, if you understand latency, then you'll get why TCS is a bad aid altogether.

BlueShift

I tried what you say and it makes the whole car more violent and sensitive at accel... That makes awful tight corner exit.

Click to expand...

That can be related to combining higher LSD values with high anti-roll bars, I notice you have it set to 6 on the rear. I try to avoid anti-roll bar settings on the rear over 5 now for this very reason.

Worked for me, i raced at Autodromo Nazionale di Monza if 765 HP and only ABS 1, great tune man! I only need now is to increase the HP.

BlueShift

I tried what you say and it makes the whole car more violent and sensitive at accel... That makes awful tight corner exit.

Okay for the TCS. Another question that would explain it all : do you play @+/-970hp/1070kg ?

Click to expand...

Yes but I really dont drive that car too much, it does have nasty throttle accel so I can see why you turned it down so low. >.>

Try Initial Torque at 30 and Accel down at 15~?

Did you know the outside tire starts to burn at accel 6 ?
Why it would stop @15 and magically make the car more stable ?

The outside tire burning isnt even possible in real life and all it is is both wheels are locked and that one has more weight on it so its the only one that lights up. Kind of stupid because both of them should.

And the reason it is locked up is because your initial torque is set so low which is what I have been saying. If you put the initial torque to 30 it wont lock up as much and the inside one is more likely to spin.

Initial torque is easily explained in game description, it is the amount of torque that one wheel will take by itself before it locks up and uses the other wheel. Therefore a low # like 5 meaning 5%, will lock as soon as one wheel exceeds 5% of total engine power, they dont let it go down to 0 because that would be 100% lock and make turning very hard and they dont let it go above 60 because there isnt really any reason to want one wheel to take more then 60% torque to itself because that isnt ever going to happen especially around a corner where it will just cause massive one tire fire, and is going to cause the diff to be almost completely open.

Think about it like this. If you have a car with 1000 hp, do you want it to let 600 of that go to one wheel only? No you dont, because that is just plain stupid, and you will never lock both tires up unless under heavy acceleration compared to having say 300 or 200 go to one wheel at max before it locks is alot more practical .

The best LSD you're probably going to get on average without fine tuning is more along the lines of 30/50/15 maybe 30/45/20~ somewhere around there

Well sorry, I don't bite it. You're untrue about LSD's units to begin with. It's % difference of torque, not % of total power.

Try what you say before jumping at me. I'm testing what you say, and by the result, you say bs.

Try your magic car in a S curve at high speed (high speed ring or grand valley both before their tunnels for example) See what you did ? Your car don't connect.
Do you understand why I'm putting initial between accel and decel on a formula-like car ?

edit - links :
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WFF...t4 initial torque&pg=PA82#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WFF...t4 initial torque&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false

edit - I don't know much in reality since I have no powerfull Zonda, but in the game the outside tire blows first @ accel 15. Try donuts for a quick check.

.
the most locked you can get is 5/60/60, if you think otherwise you sir are a moron, the closest to a fully open diff and being completely unlocked you can get is 60/5/5 and again if you think im not right you again are a moron

Keep it civil please.

Poppins

if you think im not right you again are (...)

Click to expand...

You don't drive that car "much", like you said. I drove that car 2026.3km. The problem is that car won against a few other Zonda setups, so maybe I have a clue about how I tune a LSD. And the other day I made 30 laps around Rome, 30 laps around Grand Valley with no driving aids but ABS1 to increase that LSD from 5/5/11. Result is 9/6/12 and I think it should be 8/5/11 in fact.

Anyway, having a high initial will kick in less, but more violently that at 9. I need it to kick low and each time. I don't need the car to be understeering smooth at 300km/h in a middle of a curve, accelerating to the end then have a sudden LSD kick, a brutal oversteer and head-to-tail. I need the car to connect from the decel to the accel and I don't even know why I updated this setup, I still feel 5/5/11 is better on some tracks, and 9/6/12 is great on others.

Read the link I posted earlier, it explains how Gran Turismo's LSD works, explained by the PD staff. I can't do better.

For accel... It's so obvious 15 don't work when driving at corner exits that I don't even understand yourself insisting.

You don't even said if you were driving her at the same weight and power as posted. If not, what you say is perfectly normal because lower hp car can put a higher LSD, but not for a +220hp setup. It's like comparing the LSD from a Scuderia and the one from an Escudo.

Or you're using high speed ring.

Or maybe this is because you are using a 4531456314863486383153145631° wheel I don't know and I shouldn't care. I use a DS3.

I'm sorry but I'm a moron.

- I personally think initial works in parallel of the decel phase, coasting phase and accel phase and is completly independant of accel/decel sensitivity.
- You're saying initial is what controls the accel and decel, so it's added or multiplied in your model or anything else, I don't know.

But I can connect a S curve at higher speeds that you can, and exit of C curves at better speeds with not much tire slip - which is unused power-, that is all what I see, no need to yell.
I'm not telling this is forbidden do this yourself but since I wanted the car to be easy to drive and still be speedy, the LSD follows.

If you want, you can try to beat some of my times with your LSD, maybe ? Nürburgring is an easy one : 6'56 but I should do better I recognize, I head-to-tail once and is not a great driver : for information, some made 6'00 or so with that setup. Maybe the Nür should help you understand the usefullness of the low LSD in S curves aswell.

Poppins, if you're so knowledgeable in LSD and tuning, I'd challenge you to provide a better one than Blueshift's. I can tell you right now, your claims of a better LSD settings have already been 100% incorrect thus far in my experience. So you can act like a 12 year old, calling people names all you like, but until you provide any real results, your words hold no value.

You should stay oot, this is delicate because he's not 100% rigth and I was not 100 rigth about "the theory"...

So again, I tried what Poppins says but sorry again, I'm still a morron. At least for the practice part of his explanation. But I understand why he is so sure : he use a 1080° or more wheel. Let's explain why.

Since the link I posted told "hey look, try the Vertigo @ 10/40/20 / TCS, then 10/40/20 no TCS then 45/52/25" I was missing something, maybe (I should underline the "maybe").

So here it is :
Rome 5 laps :
@45/52/25 / TCS3 - 1'20/1'04/1'04/1'04/1'12
#of times I burned at least 1 tire : 23.
#of times I lost control : 2 (with TCS it's a shame, rigth ?)

@9/6/12 / TCS3 - 1'08/1'02'/1'02'/1'02'/1'02'
But look at this :
#of times I burned at least 1 tire : 5 each time on decel (12 is too much on tcs3 i didn't tested tcs again)
#of times I lost control : 0.

I recon "range of direction" was better with a high LSD, but, it's an illusion : look at the results : online you loose @ lap 2 with no tire left. And what you say Poppins about it not locking, it still locks since I burn more tire, hence # of loose of controls. Exactly what I say : yes it locks less, but more violently.

If the GT4 links are rigth in GT5 (it should), it give too much of initial to the wheel, so you alway do left-rigth-left-rigth moves especially after a corner to control the car. Yes, it locks every and in any corner. That's because of high accel. range is high initial.
And it also want you to drive your car with a nanometer precision on the throttle : I am now sure you've got a wheel. With a DS3 I'm sorry, nobody can control that to go with no slip at all.

Now try that with mine then yours LSD :
- step on it, fully, 100%, at the end of a tigth corner @ TCS3. See who comes out faster, with no stability problems. And look at the precision of the direction, these are clearly not living in the same world.

I'm still a morron I think

edit - btw, now each time a guy will come and ask "lsd, lsd" i will post these links. The french translation of this guide was crappy btw, I understood the equations wrongly, I understood it now in english (my oh my). Still my perception of the problem "seemed to be rigth" so I just don't care : chrono is the only judge

And I still think initial act also in coasting, so in parallel of accel/decel phases. It's just too easy to read while driving a NSX or any drifting car. Hence low intial.
This is because if I'm rigth about x/5/11 or x/6/12, an high initial would solve last slips left, rigth ?

This is not the case.

High initial still give you high oversteer at end of the decel phase, that continue through the apex/coasting that still exist in accel phase (and accel reset that to full initial again) : high initial is slow to unlock - since you have more torque to "erase" from the slipping wheel. Try it !!

"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien" as we say in french, or "Best" is the enemy of "Good" in english. There's no such thing as "best" in setupping. All settings are at the expense of anything else. Here, stability. Which is tradable when using a wheel, not when using tiny DS3 controls.

So, am I sill a morron ?
(at least you are not, you helped me to understand 100% the laws of an lsd).

Adrenaline, my LSD of the tuning entry for the competition is really a dark ****

KForce

With TC I ran a 5:45 on the ring. I think I can get the same time without it but I need more time with the car. Since we always seem to be in street car rooms I don't see me getting much faster in the zonda any time soon. Honestly I think there is low 5:40s in the car for sure. With some serious skill and time I think high 6:30.s is possible. Once my Internet is back up I'll be all over it.