Gordon Murray's T.25 / T.27 City Cars & Teewave AR.1 Electric Sports Car

Toronado

Chrysler has made something that looks practically identical to that for over 10 years now. I've driven those ones several times, and unless the Renault does some amazing thing that the Chrysler doesn't, "glorified golf cart" is a perfectly apt way of describing it.

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A golf cart probably doesn't do 60 miles per hour.

Probably isn't built as well either. And being a Renault, I think if I were unlucky enough to have a crash, I'd prefer it to a half-assed golf cart.

The photo I posted is mine, taken at the Geneva show earlier this year. I had a good look around the car and a bit of a sit inside. Feels a lot more substantial and better built than the looks suggest and judging by all the first drives I've read from UK magazines, it drives very well too.

Worth remembering that just because you can't see a car working in the States, it doesn't mean it doesn't have application in other parts of the world.

And I say again: compared with the Murray, it's half the price. Half. For a car that does probably 90% of what the T27 will do, I'd say that's a fairly good deal. I'm not suggesting the T27 won't be a good car (or even a better one) but when you're talking something that'll be used most likely as a third car, not paying an extra £7k is quite appealing.

homeforsummer

A golf cart probably doesn't do 60 miles per hour.

Probably isn't built as well either. And being a Renault, I think if I were unlucky enough to have a crash, I'd prefer it to a half-assed golf cart.

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Defensive much? Again, I've driven vehicles like that before. Several times.

I'm not merely looking at it and instantly jumping to the "its obviously just a golf cart" conclusion. Unless the Renault has some major advancement in the field (which I note you haven't made any attempt to detail, instead deciding to list some subjective measurements and then purport that I simply must not "get it" for disagreeing with you), I see little reason to see it as any different from the dozens of other NEVs already sold around the world that basically look just like it. Which means it will ultimately end up being a niche product in an already niche market.


Hence my original comment.

homeforsummer

Worth remembering that just because you can't see a car working in the States, it doesn't mean it doesn't have application in other parts of the world.

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Yeah, this has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I'll thank you not to assume it does.

If I was dumping on it because OMG THIS IS SO STUPID CAUSE IT WON'T WORK IN AMERICA, I have to imagine I would be dumping on the Renault and the T.27. Note how I have not done that.



Though I can't imagine if you are jumping down my throat like this that there is any point in continuing this discussion, so feel free to respond however.

Edited.

I'm not looking to start an arguement. You made a point, I listed my responses. If it looked like I was jumping down your throat I apologise, but having seen the car in person I feel at least reasonably informed to pass judgement on it.

The Twizy feels like a Renault, i.e. a car, albeit a small one. The other NEVs that were at Geneva felt like golf karts and vehicles made in someone's shed.

How come the Twizzy is 450kgs and the T27 nearly 700kgs?
You could have plastic panels fitted to the Twizzy and still have it under 500kgs.

Moot

How come the Twizzy is 450kgs and the T27 nearly 700kgs?
You could have plastic panels fitted to the Twizzy and still have it under 500kgs.

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Not sure, but I suspect the Twizy has a smaller battery pack which will make up some of the difference, and I also suspect the Twizy has a spaceframe rather than monocoque chassis.

I must admit I find it hard to see where all the weight fits into the T27! That's what modern cars are like though. The smart fortwo is in the 900kg region, though when you drive one it does feel quite solid so I'm guessing the quality of the materials has something to do with it.

It makes more sense to consider the Twizy a sort of four-wheeled scooter - it's very simple in the "interior" whereas the photos I've seen of the T27 make it look better appointed. Start chucking in fabrics, extra seats (the Renault's seats are pretty rudimentary but surprisingly comfortable) and things like air-con and it goes towards explaining the T27's weight.

Get Jeremy Clarkson, blind fold him and put him in the car, lock doors.. Let him get ONLY if he reviews it for Top Gear. All you hear is "POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

homeforsummer

Fair enough, the Renault doesn't have doors so in colder months you'd have to wrap up warm but it's got enough bodywork for half-decent weather protection and again, you'll only be using it around the city so a big cosy cabin probably won't be priority number one. And again, early tests suggest that the Renault is good fun to drive, which is important in a city car. It's also genuinely light, at around 450kg with the battery.

As an electric car, my money would be on the Renault. If I needed to drive longer distances, the petrol T25 would be the obvious choice.

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The Twizzy will bomb, horrifically, in London.

Wind, rain, splashes, fumes will all make it the most disgusting commuter experience with none of the benefits of a motorcycle. Now it may very well gain sales on the continent as it'll offer better comfort and security over a moped which are prolific on the continent but not so in the UK.

So Paris, Rome, Madrid yes. London, Birmingham, Manchester, not a chance in hell.

And I massively disagree on the big cosy cabin, if you didn't want cosy you'd be on the bus or the tube.

ExigeEvan

The Twizzy will bomb, horrifically, in London.

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I don't necessarily disagree (apart from with your spelling It's "Twizy"), but London has unique conditions as far as British cities go. I could see it doing okay elsewhere. Not brilliant, but okay. Up here in Newcastle I reckon there's a market for it, not least because we've already got charging points everywhere so EVs are becoming a practical proposition. And there are enough £30k Nissan Leafs around here already that a £6k city car doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

But, as you say...

So Paris, Rome, Madrid yes.

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Where the weather is warm and a tiny, tiny car is an absolute must (I've driven around Madrid. They're mental), Renault will sell loads of the things.

And I massively disagree on the big cosy cabin, if you didn't want cosy you'd be on the bus or the tube.

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Hmm. Enough people knock about in decidedly un-cosy Elises, G-Wizes, on scooters, on bicycles etc to create a bit of a grey area. Obviously some of those have advantages over others, and then there's the bus and the tube as you say, but then whilst many people use public transport because they can't afford any private transport, a great many others use it because it's too expensive to take their regular car into London thanks to congestion charging, fuel costs etc. I can see the T27, Twizy etc being pretty handy in that respect.

As far as cosiness goes I'm sure you're aware how properly hot you can get walking in mid winter in just a thick coat...

Neal

Think of the Twizy as an electric 4 wheeled scooter with a roof and it starts to make more sense, you couldn't use a mobility scooter to commute.

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You underestimate the versatility of a mobility scooter. Whilst your stuck at another red light in your Twizy I can just mount the curb and nobody cares.

Also this:

Good to see he's following the correct heath and safety protocol and wearing a Hi-Vis jacket

homeforsummer

Hmm. Enough people knock about in decidedly un-cosy Elises, G-Wizes, on scooters, on bicycles etc to create a bit of a grey area. Obviously some of those have advantages over others, and then there's the bus and the tube as you say, but then whilst many people use public transport because they can't afford any private transport, a great many others use it because it's too expensive to take their regular car into London thanks to congestion charging, fuel costs etc. I can see the T27, Twizy etc being pretty handy in that respect.

As far as cosiness goes I'm sure you're aware how properly hot you can get walking in mid winter in just a thick coat...

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The G-wiz is well known, but hardly a roaring success (wiki quotes 4,000 sales worldwide). Bicycles and mopeds are as much about beating the traffic as saving costs. Sure you're exposed to the elements, but you can save so much more time and you're not stuck in static traffic next to a lorry or bus exhaust.

And that's how the Twizy will suffer, because it can't filter through traffic and it doesn't protect you from the drizzle and fumes.

I think the Twizzzy, especially the doored version, will be pretty good at protecting you from the elements. I do agree that it's a downside not being able to filter through traffic in it but you see plenty of people on scooters and bikes who sit in queues when they could be filtering which always baffles me as I used to squeeze through the most unlikely of gaps when I had a bike...Transit wing mirrors always caught me out though

Maybe they should market it in the same way as the VW Eos and make out that it's lovely to be able to smell the flowers as you pootle along rather than being sat next to a chain smoker in a 15 year old Mondeo.

I can't speak from experience but I should think the roof there is and the doors on the model we'll be getting will give fairly reasonable weather protection - probably won't be brilliant in a downpour (though it'll be better than being on a bike, or on foot) but it'll keep away typical English drizzle.

Another slightly half-assed photo (I wish I'd taken it wider angle) but it gives you some impression of the seating position - that roof and windscreen isn't as narrow as it looks from the outside:



I agree about the filtering problem, though it'll still have advantages over most cars (after all, you'd be amazed at how many gaps your car could slot through in traffic if it was half the width...), but the Twizzzy (and the T27, which I assume will be of similar width) will sell on how little energy they use nipping about town rather than their ability to replace a motorcycle.

I don't see them selling to people who already ride a motorcycle (or at least, not many) and they won't sell to people who want to drive longer distances.

They have a good chance of selling though to anyone caught in the limbo between those two scenarios - say, someone who'd have a maxi scooter but would feel unsafe on one, or someone in the market for a basic smart fortwo or another base-market A-segment vehicle who'd literally only use it on short trips around town.

Put it this way, I think both the T27/T25 and the Twizzzzzzzy will find a decent amount of buyers, just not necessarily everywhere. Incidentally, on the continent Renault will be selling a lower powered version for even less money that'll be legal for 14 year olds to drive, just like the 50cc mopeds over there. I can see Paris becoming overrun with the things...

And I applaud Renault's balls with the Twizzzzzzzzzzzzzy. It seems to stem from the same school of thought as things like the mid-engined Renault 5 Turbo and Clio V6, the original Espace, the Avantime, etc. Crazy, but genius. And if anything, the Twizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzy is less risky commercially than any of the above, simply because it's coming in at such a low price point.

Interesting but it's no Mclaren F1

Bigbazz

Interesting but it's no Mclaren F1

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I'm glad you cleared that up for me!

So this is going to be a £15,000 car standard. When are we going to see the £30,000 version with leather interior and Jaguar badge?

Never, because Aston Martin sells the Toyota IQ for £30k, it looks good as the IQ is a beautiful car.
The T25/27 look ugly, no matter if they get a £20,000 interior.

If you believe a sports car needs masses of power to have fun with, then you'll be disappointed as it's not that quick (performance is actually quite close to a car that Murray is very fond of and actually owns - a Smart Roadster). If you believe that light weight, good torque and a decent (by EV standards) range make for a good little sports car, then you'll like it.

Predictably I'm in the latter group. The styling is unusual but I see a hint of Tesla Roadster about it, and a hint of Zonda at the rear.

The big thing about the car really is that it's another that will use Murray's iStream production process. Don't think I included it in the article but it uses a carbon tub that takes only 10 minutes to build. Hugely reduces the cost of making carbon components when they can be cranked out in such a short time.

Noice and good article Ant 👍

That really is very light (although I don't do lbs so had to convert to kg to realise) especially for an EV with that kind of range. If you don't need to additional space of the T.27 it would make a very nice commuter car although I doubt I'd be able to do a round trip of some of my favourite roads in it without a recharge. 10 minutes to make a carbon tub! I don't think it'll be long before carbon cars make it into the mainstream.

Exclusive first drive review: Murray T25


What is it?



This is the exclusive first drive review of the revolutionary and endearing Murray T25. Designed and built at Gordon Murray Design studio-workshop near Guildford, the T25 is a tiny city car powered by a much-modified three-cylinder 660cc Smart engine.

It is designed to demonstrate some typical Murray-style ingenuity in packaging, but most of all to demonstrate a new and extremely efficient method of car manufacture, called iStream.


The T25’s one-plus-two seat layout makes a comfortable city vehicle for three, even though it has a road footprint no more than a quarter that of a big saloon. Ditch the passengers and the T25’s seats fold individually forward into a dead-flat position to provide the carrying space of a small estate.
 


Murray wants the T25 to be the “next big thing". According to the former F1 race car designer and the man responsible for the McLaren F1 supercar back in 1993, “there isn’t a city in the world that wouldn’t benefit from a critical mass of these running about, because we all know how directly they can save resources and cut congestion.” 



What is it like?



The T25’s extreme city driving suitability starts with its size. Because it’s quirkily short and narrow tracked, the ‘T’s turning circle undercuts that of a London taxi by a good third; it’s hard to believe that it has been proven to have proper B-segment levels of crash safety.


Inside the cabin, you sit about 100mm higher than the driver of a big saloon, with all the visibility and feeling of security this brings. And it’s symmetrical, so you have panoramic vision on both sides. The sit-up driving position allows two passengers of normal proportions to sit closely but comfortably behind you, one on either side. 


To get in, you press the button on the remote-locking key fob. The clamshell-shaped front half of the car’s glasshouse swings majestically forward on gas struts, a compelling piece of street theatre. When fully forward, a low-sided tub is revealed, dominated by the driver’s central seat. Simply step in and sit down. 


When seated, you find your legs reach downwards to the pedals, and the steering wheel is two-thirds of a stretch away, framing an instrument pack that (but for its simplicity) recalls the cockpit architecture of a jet fighter.


Its modest but enthusiastic Smart engine (with special friction-reducing bore coatings for extra efficiency) produces 51bhp and flows with a non-Smart exhaust rasp to the rear wheels through a speeded-up, five-speed Smart-derived semi-auto gearbox, controlled by shift paddles but with a selectable auto mode for city crawling.



Turn the ignition key one click to the right, plant your clog on the central brake pedal, then thumb the starter button and the engine thrums into life. Press the button on the dash showing a forward arrow and you’ll select first (or the ‘A’ button if you prefer self-shifting mode), release the handbrake via a short lever by your right thigh, toe the accelerator gently and you’re away.
 


By the time you’ve travelled 20 yards, you’ll be reveling in the unique effects of light weight. This car weighs just 575kg, not much more than a big motorbike. It flows off the mark with an amazing lack of revs or effort. It may have a small engine, but there is absolutely no impression of it having to work hard to get you moving. The automatic clutch bites positively as you raise the revs and the car rolls willingly on its tall, skinny (not to mention affordable, light, soft-riding and space-saving) 145/70 tyres, mounted on light steel wheels.



By the time you’ve travelled 50 yards, you’ll have realized how easy it is to steer and position a car that is both very slim (not much more than half a normal car’s width) and exactly as wide to your right as it is to the left. 
 


All-round visibility is terrific, but there’s another important benefit of the elevated driving position: whereas in a low and cramped car with this tiny footprint you might feel intimidated by London’s press-on cabbies and ferociously driven white vans, in the T25 you feel like their equal, far enough above the ground to be easily seen, high enough in your car to meet them eyeball to eyeball. What is more, you’re so much more agile than anything you meet that you can jink out of trouble with a blip of throttle and a flick of the wrists.
 


You soon discover that the T25’s six-metre turning circle (delivered by an unassisted rack geared at four turns lock to lock) lets you turn in less space than a London cab. Such manoeuvrability amounts to a new form of freedom. You can throw U-turns in ridiculously confined spaces, especially when you’ve figured out how wide the T25 is – or isn’t. The outer edges of the prominent rear vision mirrors mark almost the exact boundaries of the car itself, but you can hardly believe it. For the first hour or so, you find yourself driving over little potholes and seams in the road, in order to judge exactly how close you can drive to obstacles. Even when you’ve got it, you can hardly believe it.



Hold the T25 flat and you’ll eventually get close to 90mph, although a better cruising speed is 60-65mph. The lightness means that the car can accelerate to 60mph in a modest 16.2sec, despite having only 51bhp to do the job.

The T25 chassis has admirable grip and roll stiffness. Even chucked into 30mph roundabouts at 45mph, it grips brilliantly. There might be a whiff of stabilising understeer, but by the time you notice it, cornering forces are trying to lever you out of your elevated ‘chair’.



Should I buy one?

At the moment you can’t but IF the T25 makes production it’ll certainly be a compelling proposition to combat the hustle and bustle of typical city driving conditions. You wouldn’t, however, choose a T25 for crossing continents, but it’ll make a reasonable motorway trip.



Murray T25



Price: £6000 (est); 0-62mph: 16.2sec; Top speed: 90mph; Economy: 74mpg; CO2: 86g/km; Kerb weight: 575kg; Engine: 3cyls, in line, 660cc, petrol; Installation: Rear, transverse, RWD; Power: 51bhp at 7000rpm; Torque: 42lb ft at 4000rpm; Gearbox: 5-spd robotised manual

Exclusive first drive review: Murray T27


What is it?

The Murray T27 is the more recently produced battery-electric version of the T25 built in concert with electric hardware maker Zytek.

Like it’s fossil-fuel twin, the tiny T27 electric city vehicle is designed to demonstrate Murray’s ingenuity in packaging and to lead the way in a new and extremely efficient method of car manufacture, called iStream.


What is it like?

The T27 is more simple still than the uncomplicated T25; switch it on with the key, twist a round dashboard knob to get either forward or backward motion (with neutral in the middle) and release the parking brake with a ‘touch’ button on the dash. Then simply press the accelerator, gingerly at first because initial acceleration is brisk.

Eventually, you’ll discover a detent roughly halfway through its travel to show when you’re being wasteful with battery energy.

The T27 is a shade faster off the mark than the petrol powered T25 thanks to the ‘max torque from zero’ characteristic of its 34bhp electric motor, but top speed is governed at 65mph. Be sensible and its surprisingly compact lithium ion battery will take you 100 miles before it demands a four-hour ‘fill’ through a domestic power socket.

Like the T25, the Murray T27 seems ideal for low-speed city running. Where I thought the pair might be fallible was in ride and handling at higher speeds, mainly because of their short wheelbase and narrow track. Fact is, the T-cars simply feel ‘planted’ at all times, the T27 slightly the better because its centre of gravity is a little lower courtesy of the low-mounted battery’s mass.

In ride quality terms, the suspension isn’t exactly soft, but it’s on the supple side of sporty, the obvious rigidity of the chassis providing a superb platform for the all-independent suspension.

Given the short wheelbase and short overhangs (zero rear, a hand-span in front) I expected lots of pitch, and over short suburban bumps there is indeed some of it. But the car’s pitch damping is truly brilliant. So is its general resistance to body roll, given the bump absorption capabilities. I might have wanted slightly more direct steering had I not preferred (as Murray obviously does) to reduce overall efficiency with power assistance. As it is, the system connects directly to the road.


Should I buy one?

Driving both the T25 and T27 is seductive. One thing I know: even if someone embraces Murray’s designs and processes tomorrow, it will be a long time before cars like these become ordinary.

When the new age begins, I do hope a manufacturer embraces their delightful simplicity while preserving their purity and avoiding cheap adornments. The T25 and T27 undoubtedly have the capability to usher in a new age of automotive realism. They must be allowed to do it.

Murray T27



Price: £7000 (est); 0-62mph: 14.9sec; Top speed: 65mph; Economy: 100 miles (NEDC cycle), 130 miles (ECE15 cycle); CO2: 0g/km (tailpipe); Kerb weight: 680kg; Engine: Zytek electric motor; Installation: Rear, transverse, RWD; Power: 34bhp; Torque: na; Gearbox: single speed

Interesting tests 👍 James May has also had a go in the latest Top Gear mag and he came away impressed too, worth picking up for those who can.

Really though, the production process is more interesting than the car itself.

homeforsummer

Really though, the production process is more interesting than the car itself.

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Definitely. 👍

http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/iStream.php

I remember Gordon Murray saying that it does get inefficient when you go into larger production numbers (I think he said 200,000+. I may be wrong though).

I want one, it looks nice and I love the seating positions.

TankAss95

I remember Gordon Murray saying that it does get inefficient when you go into larger production numbers (I think he said 200,000+. I may be wrong though).

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Maybe proportionally, but as a process that uses significantly fewer materials and takes up significantly less space I can't see it becoming more inefficient than current production methods - though I've not read an article with the bit you're quoting, so maybe Murray forsees something else.

May makes an interesting point in the TG article, which is that because people want their small cars as well-built, luxurious and well-equipped as larger ones, the profit margins on small cars are tiny. He likens it to the VW Up and VW Passat costing largely the same to design and build. Yes, the Passat uses more materials, but material costs are quite low compared to the drawing board to production process and the cost of producing the cars itself.

It's why, in the UK for example, you rarely see a small car for less than about £7k brand new regardless of what engine it has, who makes it or where it's made.

iStream aims to massively cut all that expensive production stuff to make small cars genuinely cheap again.

I suppose there's already been precedent on the market for genuinely cheap construction, albeit not as clever as iStream. While the Citroen 2CV was still on sale in the late 80s it only cost about two thirds the price of other small cars on sale at the time. Obviously it didn't have modern car creature comforts, but the basic construction made it hilariously cheap.

On the T25/T27:

Those images amaze me - considering how much smaller the car is even than a Smart, it still fits three people and more luggage. And it doesn't even look like the driver sits any further towards the front of the car than they do in a Smart.

Edit:

I'd also add that much as I think the Renault Twizy is brilliant, they'd best get selling them quick before someone buys the iStream idea and starts producing cars like the T27, because the Renault will become obsolete pretty quickly, at least in the UK where weather dictates that cars with full doors are preferable.

^Found it. 👍


At around 4:30. Very interesting video. Sorry if it's a repost.

Any news on whether anyone's planning to build these to sell anytime soon? I hadn't heard anything about the project for so long that I assumed it was dead in the water. Hopefully not though, I really like the idea.

Peterram430

Any news on whether anyone's planning to build these to sell anytime soon? I hadn't heard anything about the project for so long that I assumed it was dead in the water. Hopefully not though, I really like the idea.

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I think there are still companies interested, but nothing has been confirmed just yet. Worth bearing in mind that the cars themselves may not get produced (at least, as you see them now), but buyers may instead choose to develop their own vehicles using the i-Stream system.

homeforsummer

I think there are still companies interested, but nothing has been confirmed just yet. Worth bearing in mind that the cars themselves may not get produced (at least, as you see them now), but buyers may instead choose to develop their own vehicles using the i-Stream system.

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I always had the plan in mind to build a fully electric Golf 2, or something similar 80's style. What are the costs of that i-Stream system? Or did I miss a link in the thread?

Dennisch

I always had the plan in mind to build a fully electric Golf 2, or something similar 80's style. What are the costs of that i-Stream system? Or did I miss a link in the thread?

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Not sure there's a set cost, other than it being about a third the price of regular production. Funny you mention an electric mk2 Golf - VW is currently restoring one previously owned by one of my colleagues. Once it's done we're doing a comparison test, old with new.

Search "golf citystromer" on google for more info.

homeforsummer

Search "golf citystromer" on google for more info.

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Remember the Volkswagen Mark II Golf CityStromer? Well, neither did we, but we were reminded that VW has been tinkering with electric vehicles since the 1970s thanks to a recent article on All Cars Electric. In 1985, VW took a Mark I Golf, swapped the gasoline engine for an all-electric drivetrain and voila, The Mark II Golf CityStromer was born. The CityStromer was powered via 96 volts of lead-acid gel batteries and had a range of around 50-60 miles and could reash a top speed of 60 miles per hour. In 1985, it sold for $30,000. One reason we've not heard much about it is that VW did a very limited production run – only about 100 left-hand-drive and two right-hand-drive versions of the EVs were ever made.

All Cars Electric writer Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield got her hands on one of the two the right-hand-drive Mark IIs in 2009. By the time she acquired the vehicle, it had already undergone many aftermarket powertrain modifications and was able to reach 70 mph. However, the electric motor eventually gave out and, due to the high cost of repairs, it ended up just sitting in her driveway.

Gordon-Bloomfield's Mark II Golf CityStromer didn't sit there for too long, because VW was searching for just this vehicle recently while working on the 2012 Golf Blue e-motion. After some discussion, she decided to sell her 1985 EV back to VW and the automaker plans to restore the vehicle to its original condition with help from the team that crafted it 25 years ago.

Citystromer


I need to start collecting Lithium Ion batteries. I really want to build one. 50 to 75 hp will be more than enough.