Gordon Murray's T.25 / T.27 City Cars & Teewave AR.1 Electric Sports Car

[BigYoSpeck]

I saw the piece on fifth gear about this and at first I thought oh lord, what a fall from grace.

But then you watch it and listen to the guys pitch and I'm sold on it, the guys a genius. I've said for years cars will end up being franchised as the big car companies can't afford to keep re-inventing the wheel. You already get platform sharing and companies using each others engines to save of costs and pretty soon I can see there only really being a few actual developers in the car world.

With all the emission regulations and crash safety requirements pretty much all cars are going to end up with near identical 4 pot turbo units and a generic shaped body needed to meet the regs.

It will become like the PC where companies design engines and chassis then the branding companies will take those components and put them together in a package.

 

[homeforsummer]

I still don't think you're getting it Robin.

This car is getting so much press because of the 'Gordon Murray' bit

It's getting press because it's completely and utterly different from anything we've seen before. And it's hardly in magazines all the time, it's not really getting any more attention than something like the Smart or the MINI did. If anything, less.

Seriously, head to his website and read every page. This isn't just about a city car with a central driving position, it's about a completely different approach to designing, manufacturing and selling a car. We're talking factories so small you could virtually produce the cars at the dealership and using less than a third the resources of a normal vehicle, about packaging that lets you fit three people and their luggage in a car smaller than a smart, and a car where a regular petrol version can crack 100mpg without too much problem. And how despite the reduction in resources and physical size it's still capable of passing crash tests without any difficulty?

and regardless of how I feel about it I think it would be much fairer that its detached from his name because it creates all sorts of silly expectations and bias (like its a baby F1 and going to be the best micro car ever etc..).

How? I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to consider it a "baby F1". It's designed by the same bloke but why can't that be a good thing? Murray appears to be putting the same amount of effort into making a £6k city car as he did into a £600k supercar - surely that's something to celebrate?

Maybe if there wasn't some vein streak going on here he would have labeled it GMD.

I don't even see why this sentence is necessary. Gordon Murray, Gordon Murray Design, GMD... they're all the same thing, and since the car will be sold under different names anyway, what does it matter that it's carrying the name of the person who has spent the last ten years coming up with the concept?...

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Murray appears to be putting the same amount of effort into making a £6k city car as he did into a £600k supercar - surely that's something to celebrate?

The guy is a real innovator. When you look at the F1 and stop to consider it's 18 years since it went into production it's mind boggling to think how many things it's still ahead of modern cars on. You don't see staying power like that in cars, it's more comparable to a fighter jet.

If this lives up to the concept it's amazing. Murray is a guy that doesn't just consider the engineering challenge, he sees the broader picture. Getting the price down to 6k makes it feasible for all family's to be 2 car family's. Getting the fuel economy so high means that on the rare occasions you have more than 1 or 2 passengers it's still more economical to take 2 and the revolutionary manufacturing methods and recycling prospects mean no one need drive 10+ year old cars that are behind on safety and economy.

I'll take some one like this being arrogant over an overpaid footballer any day.

 

[Clark]

I really hope this car makes him alot of money so he can get started on his planned sports car which will probably be a spiritual Lotus Elan successor.

 

[RC45]

If the car retains the clamshell roof it will be pretty much unusable in anything but 100% dry climates.

Anyone ever tried to get in and out if a clamshell in the rain, drizzle or wet?

 

[BrutherSuperior]

It will become like the PC where companies design engines and chassis then the branding companies will take those components and put them together in a package.

Very good observation.

 

[Robin]

How? I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to consider it a "baby F1". It's designed by the same bloke but why can't that be a good thing? Murray appears to be putting the same amount of effort into making a £6k city car as he did into a £600k supercar - surely that's something to celebrate?

I keep seeing or hearing silly things that say,

Its got a central driving position, like a Mclaren F1.
Its got a side profile which has surfacing similar to the lines on a Mclaren F1.
It designed by the guy who did the Mclaren F1, so you know its going to be good.
You can own a slice of Mclaren F1 design expertise in the T25. etc etc..

I swear you cant find anything which doesn't mention T25 and the Mclaren in one article. What does it matter what he designed before and why should it have any bearing on how good or bad this car is! Some student could have come up with this an he wouldn't get anywhere near the recognition. It almost like the Mclaren F1 is selling it!

I don't even see why this sentence is necessary. Gordon Murray, Gordon Murray Design, GMD... they're all the same thing, and since the car will be sold under different names anyway, what does it matter that it's carrying the name of the person who has spent the last ten years coming up with the concept?...

Because it comes across as its the name that's trying to peddle it to other companies, not the merits of the car. If you were a company what would you trust more, a car done by Murray or 'some guy'.

Robin.

 

[homeforsummer]

Its got a central driving position, like a Mclaren F1.
Its got a side profile which has surfacing similar to the lines on a Mclaren F1.
It designed by the guy who did the Mclaren F1, so you know its going to be good.
You can own a slice of Mclaren F1 design expertise in the T25. etc etc..

That's just poor journalism, nothing to do with Murray. But then, since the guy did do the F1, I still can't see the harm in mentioning it.

Like I said, if he's putting the same effort into making a £6k city car as a supercar a hundred times the price, only a fool would say that's a bad thing.

What does it matter what he designed before and why should it have any bearing on how good or bad this car is!

So are you saying the fact Murray has designed one of the greatest ever supercars and designed a Formula 1 car that won 15 out of 16 races in a season (and the Light Car Company Rocket, and the Mini-based Midas, and work with Caparo...) isn't a reflection of his engineering genius and won't rub off on the T.25?

Err... right. That's like saying that Giugiaro was just flukeing it every time he designed cars and the previous masterpieces had no bearing on whether his next one would be any good... Unlike Father Dougal people like that generally can follow up one idea with other good ideas...

Some student could have come up with this an he wouldn't get anywhere near the recognition.

A design student will get recognition if they deserve it. A 23 year old ex-design student is currently chief designer at Morgan and designed the Aeromax in a work experience placement. Unsurprisingly, he got recognition for that.

If a student had come up with something as genius as iStream you can be pretty sure the press would talk about it.

Because it comes across as its the name that's trying to peddle it to other companies, not the merits of the car. If you were a company what would you trust more, a car done by Murray or 'some guy'.

Again, you're making out like Murray for some reason should be hiding the fact he's designing this car and manufacturing process. It would make no commercial sense trying to get less recognition for his concept.

I can't even see why we're having this discussion. None of your points make any sense.

 

[Robin]

So are you saying the fact Murray has designed one of the greatest ever supercars and designed a Formula 1 car that won 15 out of 16 races in a season (and the Light Car Company Rocket, and the Mini-based Midas, and work with Caparo...) isn't a reflection of his engineering genius and won't rub off on the T.25?

The two products (McLaren and T25) are so different that expertise in one segment does not have any bearing on the other. If Ferrari went and made a microcar tomorrow it probably wouldn't be any good because they are only good at doing sports car engineering with more expensive components at their disposal and a higher end price etc. Even Aston realised this and just put a body kit on a Toyota! With Murray going from designing a car with cost not being an issue to designing this he might as well be an amateur. His 'engineering genius' certainly can't rub off at this price!

A design student will get recognition if they deserve it. A 23 year old ex-design student is currently chief designer at Morgan and designed the Aeromax in a work experience placement. Unsurprisingly, he got recognition for that.

I personally think the Aeromax and the Supersports is hideous and its a disgrace to the Morgan brand. That design student took the Aero 8 which was beautiful (apart from the odd original lights) and made it into a footballers / bankers car. Money clearly talks in this instance.

I can't even see why we're having this discussion. None of your points make any sense.

I think they make perfect sense and I have explained my points over the last however many posts. It seems that people cannot disagree with something without getting flamed, it has to be all praise for the mighty engineering god Gordon Murray. If I think this car is being peddled on a name its my opinion.

Robin.

 

[homeforsummer]

The two products (McLaren and T25) are so different that expertise in one segment does not have any bearing on the other. If Ferrari went and made a microcar tomorrow it probably wouldn't be any good because they are only good at doing sports car engineering with more expensive components at their disposal and a higher end price etc. Even Aston realised this and just put a body kit on a Toyota! With Murray going from designing a car with cost not being an issue to designing this he might as well be an amateur. His 'engineering genius' certainly can't rub off at this price!

What a ridiculous statement.

An engineer is an engineer and a car is a car. The market segment in which they compete is irrelevant if the engineering expertise is there.

Aston are bodykitting-up a Toyota because it's cheaper, not because they can't put their mind to making a small car.

How about someone like Audi? They seem to have handled making a supercar and a city car without too much problem. Indeed, they made the A2 with an aluminium monocoque, a technology they got from the A8. You'd think there's a fair difference between making a luxury saloon and a city car, but apparently not. And unsurprisingly, the R8 uses the same tech. Hell, even the direct-injection engine technology. That started in the Le Mans vehicles and it's now in everything. That sounds like expertise making the jump between two completely different faculties to me.

Or how about Honda? The original Insight and the NSX were both aluminium too. And both had VTEC. Eco car and supercar engineering with the same techniques? Surely not!

I simply cannot see how you're unable to make a link between the engineering of one car and another. Hell, Murray has even said he's using F1-style engineering in the T.25, using the same tub-style chassis with non-structural bodypanels. And call me a sucker if you will but I don't think that's just marketing bollocks. It sounds more like application of a technique he's familiar with to a new product, to me.

You're also completely ignoring the financial differences between two products. The F1 was expensive sure but it was very low volume. I suspect that Murray wouldn't have to sell many licences before the money he recoups for the T.25 was more than McLaren ever made off the F1.

Remember - a car like the Polo is far more profitable for VW than the Veyron. Their purchase prices and market segments are utterly irrelevant and indeed the materials costs are irrelevant to the actual engineering techniques used. Making a monocoque or a suspension system is no different whether you're doing it for a city car or a supercar.

I personally think the Aeromax and the Supersports is hideous and its a disgrace to the Morgan brand. That design student took the Aero 8 which was beautiful (apart from the odd original lights) and made it into a footballers / bankers car. Money clearly talks in this instance.

Personal taste.

I thought the Aero 8 was a good idea badly styled. The Aeromax and Supersports are massive improvements.

And as for footballers' cars I've no idea what you're talking about. Morgans are just about the least footballer cars I can think of. I'd love to know which footballer owns one. I'd shake his hand for having an imagination.

I think they make perfect sense and I have explained my points over the last however many posts. It seems that people cannot disagree with something without getting flamed, it has to be all praise for the mighty engineering god Gordon Murray. If I think this car is being peddled on a name its my opinion.

Your opinion is welcome, trying to justify it with nonsense is different.

You appear to be attempting to justify your dislike of the car with reasons that just don't stand up to scrutiny. Trying to make out like Murray's engineering talent has absolutely no bearing on designing a city car is literally no different from my comment that Giugiaro's design talent had no bearing on every subsequent car he designed.

The Mk1 Golf, Alfa Giulia Sprint GT, Lotus Esprit, Fiat Panda, Maserati Bora, BMW M1... there's a fair variety of different cars in there but that doesn't mean his skills were immediately irrelevant when he sat down to pen the Golf after having done the M1.

And being told you're wrong isn't flaming. It's simply being told you're wrong.

 

[TheCracker]

I think they make perfect sense and I have explained my points over the last however many posts. It seems that people cannot disagree with something without getting flamed, it has to be all praise for the mighty engineering god Gordon Murray. If I think this car is being peddled on a name its my opinion.

Even if the car is being peddled on it's name (which i don't think it is) it isn't being peddled to the general public. It's being peddled to automotive and other manufacturers. To them, the name 'Gordon Murray' means clever, thinking-outside-the-box engineering with a simplistic purity. Which is a major selling point. They know he can deliver unlike Joe Bloggs, straight out of university.

 

[Neal]

T.27 unveiled - The world’s most efficient electric car

Gordon Murray has unveiled what he claims is the world’s most efficient electric car, the Gordon Murray Designes T27, a battery-powered version of his revolutionary ultra-compact T25 city car.

Though it's just 2.5 metres long, and weighs less than 700 kilograms ready to go, it can carry three adult passengers.

The car, which introduces some small body changes likely to feed into the original design, is much more than a concept, Murray insists. It could be on the market in little more than two years, he claims, and would cost £14,000 to £15,000 in the showrooms, not counting the government’s present £5000 subsidy on electric car purchases.

Developed over 17 months, the T27 is part-funded by a £4.5 million grant from the Technology Strategy Board. Its 33bhp electric motor and single-speed gearbox are both developed by Zytec, the UK race electronics and green technology company which has already done much work on the electric Smart, and are unique to the Murray project.

Production for the T27 (and T25) continues to depend on Murray’s company attracting clients willing to invest not just in its car designs but in its revolutionary high-efficiency production process, called iStream. Murray says he is currently in serious talks with three potential clients, one in the UK, one in Europe and one “on the other side of the world”. He believes an announcement from the European investor could come as early as the end of the year.

The T27 is much lighter than most electric cars, weighing just 680 kilograms at the kerb, including battery. Its lithion-ion battery pack takes only 4.5 hours to acquire an 80 per cent charge and it has a ‘real life’ range of 100 miles. It also accelerates from 0-62 mph in under 15 seconds (and 0-30 mph “uncomfortably fast”), with a top speed governed at 65 mph, to protect battery charge.

The T27 will make its debut on public roads in this year’s RAC Future Car Challenge, which runs from Brighton to London on 5 November.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Good work. But he could still do alot to it to make it look less like an overhyped mobility scooter.

 

[Moot]

Terrible car, extremely heavy for the size. Ugly. Even with all the weight low down look at the angle of lean, it should be near flat like a kart. The weight makes it so inefficient, it has to have 13" wheels with 145 tyres? That is bigger than what my Ford Fiesta used to have, that could carry 5 people and weighed similar or less maybe. That had 12" wheels and 135 tyres, this car is smaller than a Mini and that had 10" wheels.
If this car was better it could make do with some 9" wheels or something. lightweight and economic to run.
Also there is no £5k subsidy possible for this car. The maximum government allows is 25% of retail price. So it would be about £3,500. But then the grant won't exist anyway by the time this gets on sale.

 

[TheCracker]

Terrible car, extremely heavy for the size. Ugly. Even with all the weight low down look at the angle of lean, it should be near flat like a kart. The weight makes it so inefficient, it has to have 13" wheels with 145 tyres? That is bigger than what my Ford Fiesta used to have, that could carry 5 people and weighed similar or less maybe. That had 12" wheels and 135 tyres, this car is smaller than a Mini and that had 10" wheels.
If this car was better it could make do with some 9" wheels or something. lightweight and economic to run.
Also there is no £5k subsidy possible for this car. The maximum government allows is 25% of retail price. So it would be about £3,500. But then the grant won't exist anyway by the time this gets on sale.

What benefit would 9" wheels give?

No tyre company even makes 9" tyres. It would be uneconomical for them to do so.

It's not got a massive angle of lean, the photo is taken at an angle. Why would you want a city car to corner flat?

It weighs that much because of the batteries. Do you really not think that Gordon Murray of all people would make the car as light as it could possibly be?

 

[Moot]

What benefit would 9" wheels give?

No tyre company even makes 9" tyres. It would be uneconomical for them to do so.

It's not got a massive angle of lean, the photo is taken at an angle. Why would you want a city car to corner flat?

It weighs that much because of the batteries. Do you really not think that Gordon Murray of all people would make the car as light as it could possibly be?

A man who was once good, does not mean he still has a capacity to make a good car now. Only the product of the moment judges the man. I want to say in my view as one potential customer it's totally wrong for me.

It's true that 9" tyres/wheels would have to be commissioned at initial expense. But that can't be dismissed as look the whole car runs on batteries which are stupidly expensive to buy, it would be a lot cheaper to have a petrol engine.
Smaller lighter wheels would be more efficient than 13" wheels. Especially considering there is a 65mph maximum top speed and this car would mostly be doing 30mph at most, an average of walking speed I beleive is relevant to city driving.
It's the principle I have in mind, a car that size should never weigh nearly 700kgs. Ridiculous.
Murray should have come to the conclusion, technology is not ready for a lightweight electric car. It's not possible yet, releasing this is a failure of lightweight Ethos, which I think he no longer has anyway.

 

[Neal]

Good work. But he could still do alot to it to make it look less like an overhyped mobility scooter.

Painting it that shade of blue doesn't help either I prefer the look of the T.25 prototype but the styling could easily be changed on a production version. In fact one of the selling points of the design is the body panels are mechanically fixed so can easily be replaced even after the car has been purchased which will allow buyers to change the look of their car.

Terrible car, extremely heavy for the size. Ugly. Even with all the weight low down look at the angle of lean, it should be near flat like a kart. The weight makes it so inefficient, it has to have 13" wheels with 145 tyres? That is bigger than what my Ford Fiesta used to have, that could carry 5 people and weighed similar or less maybe. That had 12" wheels and 135 tyres, this car is smaller than a Mini and that had 10" wheels.
If this car was better it could make do with some 9" wheels or something. lightweight and economic to run.
Also there is no £5k subsidy possible for this car. The maximum government allows is 25% of retail price. So it would be about £3,500. But then the grant won't exist anyway by the time this gets on sale.

What TheCracker said plus for comparison the Smart ForTwo Electric Drive is 890kg and has one less seat.

Also Murray is fully aware of the benefits of lightweight design

It’s been an exciting start to 2011 for all of us at Gordon Murray Design. We’re working on several interesting projects, some of which we hope to be able to announce this summer and the most imminent of these is our T.27 electric city car programme which will be debuted towards the end of June.

Electric cars are a huge challenge at the moment, largely due to the cost of lithium ION batteries. Most EV’s are selling for around the £30,000 mark which moves them out of range for drivers who are looking for electric urban mobility. We anticipate that the T.27 should be about half that price thanks to the light weight delivered by our iStream® process and the smaller batteries.

Lightweight is a virtuous circle with any car design but it is much more important with an electric vehicle. We have been able to calculate the efficiency savings with T.27 relative to other electric cars and the results are beyond our expectations and targets. For example the iMiev uses 40% more energy than the T.27 and the Mini 86% more!

I really enjoyed driving the T.25 in the RAC Future Car Challenge last November. We suffered a bit in the London traffic for the final 10 miles as there isn’t a ‘stop-start’ fitted to the T.25 engine, but we still managed to return 96 miles per gallon and use less energy than all the diesels and half the hybrids! The good news is that this year we plan to enter both the T.25 and the T.27 so we will have an absolute back to back challenge between an efficient petrol car and the world’s most efficient electric car.

 

[Ingram]

I am very much a fan of the T.25/T.27. I like the way it looks (completely subjective), and so many of the engineering/manufacturing principles applied to the car mean that it deserves to be a success.

The only possible stumbling blocks to strong sales I foresee is how easy it will be to convince the skeptical that; a) such a small car can be safe and, b) why if you need just 'a car' you really dont have much reason to choose anything else.

Given the fact that the manufacturing processes are so simple and do not require a full factory to build, I think that all the car needs is a strong brand to back it. Slap an Apple logo on it and millions of 'surgically-attatched-to-my-smartphone' types would throw money at it without question.

 

[Robin]

But he could still do alot to it to make it look less like an overhyped mobility scooter.

I wouldn't be seen dead in one, mobility scooter through and through Looks like a riced G-Wizz at best!

 

[Moot]

I can only see it being a hobby car for men as something to build themselves from a kit at weekends. They would not be in a city, but perhaps a small town or village, they would drive it out on a sunny sunday for walkers to point at and say "what a funny car".
I predict 20 sales in the UK.

It might sell in Asia.

 

[Neal]

Slap an Apple logo on it and millions of 'surgically-attached-to-my-smartphone' types would throw money at it without question.

I totally agree as does the man himself...

'We’ve had 20 inquiries from 15 different countries; only seven are existing car producers,' he said. 'We’ve had governments saying "we need a car for our cities". But equally you could start seeing cars coming from brand owners like Apple or Virgin or Sony.'

I think the safety issue will play on peoples minds but hopefully that will change as more small cars appear on the roads such as the new Mini Rocketman although that will still be a couple of feet longer than the T.25/T.27

I can only see it being a hobby car for men as something to build themselves from a kit at weekends. They would not be in a city, but perhaps a small town or village, they would drive it out on a sunny sunday for walkers to point at and say "what a funny car".
I predict 20 sales in the UK.

It might sell in Asia.

Have you ever thought of applying for The Apprentice?

 

[Moot]

Have you ever thought of applying for The Apprentice?

I love the apprentice but could never do it.
I did watch it last night so it is on my mind.

Biscuits are the new popcorn,
T27 is the new mobility vehicle.

I think it has more market value as Mobility than for the general public use in the UK. I can see these parked outside my local shops on restricted double yellow lines with the blue badges displayed in the window. It would actually be good as normally disabled peoples car are just normal cars and when they park on the double yellows legally, they do cause an obstruction/hindrance to the flow of traffic.

 

[TheCracker]

It's true that 9" tyres/wheels would have to be commissioned at initial expense. But that can't be dismissed as look the whole car runs on batteries which are stupidly expensive to buy, it would be a lot cheaper to have a petrol engine.

That will be the T25 version then. Like the article states.

Smaller lighter wheels would be more efficient than 13" wheels. Especially considering there is a 65mph maximum top speed and this car would mostly be doing 30mph at most, an average of walking speed I beleive is relevant to city driving.

A 9" wheel is going to save what, about a kilo at each corner? Hardly worth all the effort for no advantage whatsoever. Added to that a smaller wheel has to rotate faster therefore tyre wear could be an issue. Smaller wheels don't ride pot holes as well so would lead to an inferior ride quality. Smaller wheels mean smaller brakes which means they have to work harder which means again they are less efficient and wear out quicke.

It's the principle I have in mind, a car that size should never weigh nearly 700kgs. Ridiculous.

700kgs is still light. A battery powered car that weighs that much is quite an achievement . A Tesla weighs 1283kg. The Elise it's based on weighs 870kg. Do the maths.

I can only see it being a hobby car for men as something to build themselves from a kit at weekends. They would not be in a city, but perhaps a small town or village, they would drive it out on a sunny sunday for walkers to point at and say "what a funny car".
I predict 20 sales in the UK.

Yet there are around 20,000 Smart cars (not including the Roadster or ForFour) on UK roads. I'd say there's a market plenty big enough for it.

 

[Moot]

That will be the T25 version then. Like the article states.



A 9" wheel is going to save what, about a kilo at each corner? Hardly worth all the effort for no advantage whatsoever. Added to that a smaller wheel has to rotate faster therefore tyre wear could be an issue. Smaller wheels don't ride pot holes as well so would lead to an inferior ride quality. Smaller wheels mean smaller brakes which means they have to work harder which means again they are less efficient and wear out quicke.



700kgs is still light. A battery powered car that weighs that much is quite an achievement . A Tesla weighs 1283kg. The Elise it's based on weighs 870kg. Do the maths.



Yet there are around 20,000 Smart cars (not including the Roadster or ForFour) on UK roads. I'd say there's a market plenty big enough for it.

I do take your points, especially as you say maths with an s.
I don't think this specific car is bad for weight, all electric cars are bad weight for the size they are. With my lightweight principles I would not market a heavy battery laden car. As for the petrol T25, I just don't like that on visual design, which is quite a big factor.

For me the Smart market segment is not the same as the Murraymobile, the Smart actually has some design dignity. If they were the same price the Smart would take the sales.
But the Smart starts at £9k. The petrol T25 would have to be a lot cheaper than that, £5k maybe.

 

[homeforsummer]

Painting it that shade of blue doesn't help either I prefer the look of the T.25 prototype but the styling could easily be changed on a production version. In fact one of the selling points of the design is the body panels are mechanically fixed so can easily be replaced even after the car has been purchased which will allow buyers to change the look of their car.

Quite.

The bodypanels aren't a structural element of the car so potential licencees of the design will be pretty much free to style it however they like, within the restrictions of the platform.

And Moot, I don't see why a T25/T27 would have to be significantly cheaper than a smart, since they offer one more seat and equal or larger luggage space. If early reports are to be believed the T25 handles more naturally than the smart too.

I think you're completely underestimating the potential market for a car like this, especially given that energy costs aren't getting any cheaper.

For me, the only real problem with the T27 specifically is this:

The Renault Twizy. If you were in the market for a car used solely in the city (as most tiny electric cars will be) then you'd have to seriously want the T27 at £14k+ over the Renault which will be between £6-7k.

Fair enough, the Renault doesn't have doors so in colder months you'd have to wrap up warm but it's got enough bodywork for half-decent weather protection and again, you'll only be using it around the city so a big cosy cabin probably won't be priority number one. And again, early tests suggest that the Renault is good fun to drive, which is important in a city car. It's also genuinely light, at around 450kg with the battery.

As an electric car, my money would be on the Renault. If I needed to drive longer distances, the petrol T25 would be the obvious choice.

 

[Tornado]

Is a glorified golf cart really a competitor for this thing?

 

[homeforsummer]

Is a glorified golf cart really a competitor for this thing?

If you're in the market for a city car for doing a handful of miles every day, for half the price of the T27, then yes.

And calling it a "glorified golf cart" doesn't really give credit to how well engineered it is, either.

 

[boiltheocean]

Why on earth would you want that Renault over a road legal mobility scooter?

 

[Neal]

Think of the Twizy as an electric 4 wheeled scooter with a roof and it starts to make more sense, you couldn't use a mobility scooter to commute. I see it as a successor the BMW C1 scooter

Also it comes with doors too

 

[Tornado]

And calling it a "glorified golf cart" doesn't really give credit to how well engineered it is, either.

Chrysler has made something that looks practically identical to that for over 10 years now. I've driven those ones several times, and unless the Renault does some amazing thing that the Chrysler doesn't, "glorified golf cart" is a perfectly apt way of describing it.