Suspension Flowchart ## FWD Oversteer Questionnaire Posted ##

CyKosis1973 · Jun 22, 2012

CLICK HERE-> ## FWD Oversteer Questionnaire ## <-CLICK HERE

CLICK HERE-> FWD Understeer Flowchart Posted <-CLICK HERE

## FWD Understeer Questionnaire ##

Before I do any more work, or put any more effort into this, I thought I'd gauge opinion.

Two questions, firstly, is there any kind of interest from the community for the following??

Secondly, will the community be willing to provide the input??

Inspired by the cheat sheet found on the sticky at the top of this forum, "The Ultimate GT5 Link Collection for Tuning", I thought perhaps we could create one that is GT5 specific, rather than BMW Z4 specific

If there is interest, then I'll carry on putting together some more sheets, for differing drivetrains. The picture below will be recognisable from the above thread. In way of explanation, what you're seeing below would be one of 6 pages that would form a sort of questionnaire.

Each suspension component is listed, for the three stages of a corner, I would ask members to provide a simple "Increase, Decrease, Front, Rear" type answer. It maybe that members would not touch a certain component for a particular stage of a corner. That's fine, provide no answer, or otherwise indicate that no changes would be made.

The letter/number combination to either side of the suspension components are there purely for the purposes of providing answers. If there is interest, I'll create a post in here, with A1-A36, B1-B36, etc, etc, that people can quote, complete and post back here or PM me. It maybe that I create some sort of Google doc as a form, whatever.

If such a thing were to garner interest, then I'd collate the results and create sheets based on the frequency of responses. So if 15 people say Increase Front Spring, 5 people say Increase Front RH and only 1 person say Increase Negative Front Toe, then the sheet will recommend to the user that they first increase Front Spring, then RH, then Toe.

If those were the only answers supplied, then that's what the published cheat sheet would show and would not list every component, like the picture below does.

I hope I haven't overly complicated my intention. Please let me know if I'm chasing my own tail, or if there's some legs in this...

{Cy}

trackripper123 · Jun 22, 2012

This sounds great, although you could get conflicting answers from people depending on whether they believe the suspension is backwards etc etc, and I'm still a bit puzzled by it so... hmm.

Still a great idea nonetheless, I'd say go for it! 👍

rams1de · Jun 22, 2012

I think it would be very useful if you can get the input from other tuners.

The cheat sheet in the sticky isn't too great to follow, especially (if like me) you want a quick reference on your phone.

This real life tuning setup guide would be close to perfect if it applied to GT5, but alas...

nomis3613 · Jun 23, 2012

Great idea, CyKosis. Yes, there will be huge differences in what people think works best, but even in the worst case it will be more useful than the Z4 flowchart.

CyKosis1973
Two questions, firstly, is there any kind of interest from the community for the following??

Heaps of interest here!

CyKosis1973
Secondly, will the community be willing to provide the input??

I'm very keen to get involved.

Already it seems well thought out in how the flowchart will be structured. Also, good idea to start with FWD as its the simplest of the drivetrains.

All the best for this, it's a great idea. 👍

schlep16 · Jun 24, 2012

sounds good!

CyKosis1973 · Jun 25, 2012

Thanks for the replies, folks. I appreciate that there will likely be a conflict of opinion on what to do and when, but that's a hurdle I'll stumble over if I can drum up enough interest/input.

If I can get a few more people interested, I'll knock up some more sheets for the other drivetrains, this week...

{Cy}

CyKosis1973 · Jun 26, 2012

Anyone else..??

{Cy}

nomis3613 · Jun 26, 2012

CyKosis1973
Anyone else..??

{Cy}

I suspect people will come out of the woodwork once we start throwing around theories about the best way to tune...

Just a suggestion, I think we should start with the FF understeer chart you've posted as a test case, and only move onto other situations once that one is relatively complete.

bs13 · Jun 26, 2012

I would certainly be interested in another cheat sheet specific to GT5. It would also be interesting to hear the discussion from experienced tuners as to what they suggest and why.

CyKosis1973 · Jun 26, 2012

nomis3613
I suspect people will come out of the woodwork once we start throwing around theories about the best way to tune...

Just a suggestion, I think we should start with the FF understeer chart you've posted as a test case, and only move onto other situations once that one is relatively complete.

Good idea, I'll rehost the FWD one first and post up a form for people to complete. Then see if that gets the ball rolling, or at least stimulates some discussion. 👍 I've also knocked up the remaining sheets, but will wait for a while before hosting the images.

bs13
I would certainly be interested in another cheat sheet specific to GT5. It would also be interesting to hear the discussion from experienced tuners as to what they suggest and why.

Thank you for replying. Fingers crossed that we can create something useful...

{Cy}

CyKosis1973 · Jun 26, 2012

Sorry for double posting.

Ok, here's the first go at this. Would those willing, please quote this post, remove all the guff above and below the snip line and then go through each item and DELETE as appropriate. So if you think that item A1 requires increasing, then delete "/Decrease" and visa versa. If you wouldn't change anything for an item, then delete everything, other than the item number and the semi-colon (and EXT and COMP), they're there for my benefit.

Do not feel that all items require an answer, I'm expecting a lot of blanks, only provide an answer where you think appropriate.

It has also occurred to me that people may be reluctant to provide their answers in such a public way, which is fine. If you feel thus, please PM me and I'll feed your answers in anonymously. I won't be keeping user names, once I have answers.

I've left the chart for FWD Understeer in post #1, for your reference. If you feel anything needs changing with the layout or format, please say sooner rather than later. I'd hate to have to ask people to repeat things. If we can iron out the kinks in the process for this one first, then the other 5 should go a lot smoother.

Thank you in advance, hopefully we can make something beautiful 👍

{Cy}

============/SNIP/============
FWD Understeer

Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A2 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A3 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A4 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A5 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A6 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A8 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A9 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A10 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A11 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A12 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A14 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A15 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A16 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A17 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A18 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A20 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A21 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A22 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A23 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A24 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear
Corner Exit - High Speec
A25 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A26 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A27 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A28 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A29 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A30 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A32 ; Stiffen/Soften ; Front/Rear
A33 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear EXT ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear COMP
A34 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A35 ; Increase/Decrease ; Front/Rear
A36 ; In/Out ; Front/Rear

============/SNIP/============
Questionnaire One - FWD Understeer

krenkme · Jun 26, 2012

Looks very interesting Cy. I will try and help anyway I can. Once I get off this app, and can use my laptop I will try and fill out your questionnaire (but keep in mind, I really have no idea what I'm doing :dopey:

)

CyKosis1973 · Jun 26, 2012

Most appreciated, Sir. I hope the law of averages and group thinking will get us to somewhere that's both agreeable and sensible 👍

Thank you,
{Cy}

trackripper123 · Jun 26, 2012

I'll get back to you with some theories. 👍

USARMYCOMBATVET · Jun 26, 2012

CyKosis1973
============/SNIP/============

Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ;Increase
A2 ;Decrease
A3 ;Decrease
; Decrease COMP
A4 ; Increase
A5 ; Increase
A6 ; Out Rear
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ;Increase
A8 ; Stiffen
A9 ;Increase
; Decrease COMP front
A10 ; Decrease
A11 ; Decrease
A12 ; In
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ;
A14 ;
A15 ;
A16 ;
A17 ;
A18 ;
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; Decrease
A20 ; Stiffen
A21 ; Increase EXT ; Decrease COMP
A22 ; Decrease
A23 ; Decrease
A24 ; Out
Corner Exit - High Speed
A25 ; Decrease
A26 ; Stiffen
A27 ; Decrease EXT ; Increase COMP
A28 ; Increase
A29 ; Decrease
A30 ;
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ; Increase
A32 ; Soften
A33 ; Increase EXT ; Decrease COMP
A34 ; Increase
A35 ; Decrease
A36 ; Out

============/SNIP/============

Here is what I propose. I will update. Also anything I left blank should be assumed as neutral(camber/toe angle), unchanged(it's probably working well like it is) or "0.0"

CyKosis1973 · Jun 26, 2012

trackripper123
I'll get back to you with some theories. 👍

Thank you 👍

USARMYCOMBATVET
Here is what I propose. I will update. Also anything I left blank should be assumed as neutral(camber/toe angle), unchanged(it's probably working well like it is) or "0.0"

And thank you too. Let me know when you're finished and I'll capture your answers 👍

{Cy}

trackripper123 · Jun 26, 2012

CyKosis1973
Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ;
A2 ; Stiffen
A3 ;
A4 ; Decrease Front
A5 ; Increase
A6 ; Out
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ;
A8 ; Stiffen
A9 ;
A10 ; Decrease Front
A11 ; Increase
A12 ; Out
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ;
A14 ;
A15 ;
A16 ;
A17 ;
A18 ; Out
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; Increase/Decrease
A20 ; Stiffen/Soften
A21 ; Increase/Decrease EXT ; Increase/Decrease COMP
A22 ; Increase
A23 ; Increase
A24 ; Out
Corner Exit - High Speed
A25 ;
A26 ;
A27 ;
A28 ;
A29 ;
A30 ; Out Rear
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ;
A32 ; Soften Front
A33 ; Increase Front Ext / Increase Rear Comp
A34 ; Decrease Front
A35 ; Increase
A36 ; Out Rear

Yeah, its probably best if people specified front/rear changes, instead of just "Increase" or "Decrease".

esoxhntr · Jun 27, 2012

it'd probably make your chart a little busier but maybe add front and rear to each tuning 'component' and break dampers further down by compression and extension

so springs would have a sub group of front and rear (a2 & a3) and dampers would have front and rear which broke down to compression and extensions. (a4 & a5 for front comp/ext, a6 & a7 for rear) as an example

just a suggestion

CyKosis1973 · Jun 27, 2012

trackripper123
Yeah, its probably best if people specified front/rear changes, instead of just "Increase" or "Decrease".

esoxhntr
it'd probably make your chart a little busier but maybe add front and rear to each tuning 'component' and break dampers further down by compression and extension

so springs would have a sub group of front and rear (a2 & a3) and dampers would have front and rear which broke down to compression and extensions. (a4 & a5 for front comp/ext, a6 & a7 for rear) as an example

just a suggestion

Sorry, should have perhaps clarified earlier that I'm working on the principle that understeer is usually a result of the front setup and oversteer the rear. I appreciate that the opposite maybe true of occasion. It is possible to reverse engineer settings in this fashion. If you've done everything to the front of the car to reduce understeer, then look to the oversteer chart and start flipping things.

Based on that, if you want to change anything in your submission, Ripper, then go for it 👍

I have managed to split out EXT and COMP, I realised at the 11th hour that I had initially treated dampers as a single entity. You have the ability above to differentiate between increase/decrease and EXT/COMP 👍

Thank you kindly,
{Cy}

JackWilson · Jun 27, 2012

I will try fill out this now Cy..

CyKosis1973 · Jun 27, 2012

Jackthalad
I will try fill out this now Cy..

Thanks Jack, appreciate it.

Naturally, if there's a public uprising regarding my last post, I'll happily add a few columns so people can differentiate between front and rear settings. This is meant to be a collaborative effort, after all...

{Cy}

JackWilson · Jun 27, 2012

Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A2 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A3 ; ---- EXT ; Decrease Front COMP
A4 ; Increase Rear
A5 ; Increase Front
A6 ; Front Out, Rear Out
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A8 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A9 ; ---- EXT ; Decrease Front COMP
A10 ; Increase Rear
A11 ; Increase Front
A12 ; Front Out, Rear Out
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A14 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A15 ; Increase Front EXT ; Increase Rear COMP
A16 ; Decrease Front Increase Rear
A17 ; Increase Front
A18 ; Front Out, Rear Out
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A20 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A21 ; ---
A22 ; Increase Front Increase Rear
A23 ; Increase Front
A24 ; Front Out, Rear Out
Corner Exit - High Speed
A25 ; Increase Rear
A26 ; Stiffen Rear
A27 ; Increase Front EXT ; Increase Rear COMP
A28 ; Increase Rear Decrease Front
A29 ; ---
A30 ; Front Out, Rear Out
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ; Increase Rear
A32 ; Stiffen Rear
A33 ; Increase Front EXT ; Increase Rear COMP
A34 ; Increase Rear Decrease Front
A35 ; ---
A36 ; Front Out, Rear Out

I've added front and rear, hope this doesn't mess things up.

nomis3613 · Jun 27, 2012

Here is my input for offline tuning. Sorry to be a nuisance, but I also found it necessary to divide it into front and rear...

CyKosis1973
Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ;
A2 ;
A3 ; decrease rear EXT ; COMP
A4 ;
A5 ; increase front
A6 ; rear out
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ;
A8 ;
A9 ; decrease rear EXT ; COMP
A10 ;
A11 ; increase front
A12 ; rear out, front in
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ; increase front
A14 ; soften rear
A15 ; decrease rear EXT ; COMP
A16 ; soften rear
A17 ;
A18 ; rear out
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; increase front
A20 ; stiffen front
A21 ; EXT ; COMP
A22 ; stiffen front
A23 ;
A24 ;
Corner Exit - High Speed
A25 ;
A26 ; stiffen front
A27 ; soften front EXT ; COMP
A28 ; increase front
A29 ; increase front
A30 ; rear out, front out
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ; decrease rear
A32 ;
A33 ; soften front EXT ; COMP
A34 ;
A35 ;
A36 ; rear out

Cheers,
Simon

CyKosis1973 · Jun 27, 2012

Jackthalad
I've added front and rear, hope this doesn't mess things up.

nomis3613
Here is my input for offline tuning. Sorry to be a nuisance, but I also found it necessary to divide it into front and rear...

Thank you, gentlemen. It's not a problem RE: adding front and rear. I'm applying real world principles to this and part of what I was looking to do was make it GT specific, not real world. So if, as it looks like, it's a case of simply doing something to front or the rear of the car to fix it, then that's how we should capture and present it.

Give me a little while to re-gig the questionnaire...

{Cy}

CyKosis1973 · Jun 27, 2012

v1.1 of the first questionnaire posted. If you've already submitted, don't feel you have to do so again. Likewise, if you want to, go for it.

As ever, my thanks and let me know if you feel further changes are required...

{Cy}

CyKosis1973 · Jun 28, 2012

Ok, I've inputted all answers so far, thank you to you all. It's looking interesting, there are a few things that score 4/4, whilst others are shotgunned across the range. If I can possible bother a few more people to provide some answers, I think we'll see definite patterns emerging...

{Cy}

CSLACR · Jun 29, 2012

I think if you're going to do it, you may as well just make one for the two or three most popular theories.

CSLACR · Jun 29, 2012

Corner Entry - High Speed
A1 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A2 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A3 ; EXT ONLY - Raise front or lower rear
A4 ; N/A
A5 ; Increase Front and/or decrease rear
A6 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)
Corner Entry - Mid/Low Speed
A7 ; Increase Front or Decrease Rear
A8 ; Stiffen Front or Soften Rear
A9 ; EXT ONLY - Raise front or lower rear
A10 ; N/A
A11 ; Increase Front and/or decrease rear
A12 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - No
A13 ; Decrease Rear
A14 ; Soften Rear
A15 ; N/A
A16 ; N/A
A17 ; Increase Front and/or decrease rear
A18 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)
Mid Corner - Excessive front roll? - Yes
A19 ; Increase Front
A20 ; Stiffen Front
A21 ; N/A
A22 ; N/A
A23 ; Increase Front and/or decrease rear
A24 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)
Corner Exit - High Speed
A25 ; Increase Front / Soften Rear
A26 ; Stiffen Front / Soften Rear
A27 ; Increase front ext, and/or decrease rear ext.
A28 ; N/A
A29 ; Increase Front Decrease Rear
A30 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)
Corner Exit - Mid/Low Speed
A31 ; Increase Front / Soften Rear
A32 ; Stiffen Front / Soften Rear
A33 ; Increase front ext, and/or decrease rear ext.
A34 ; N/A
A35 ; Increase Front Decrease Rear
A36 ; Front negative/lower, rear negative (towards - or further -)

That's online, offline sometimes things barely work even at extremes or sometimes not at all. Mainly ride height and the shocks are more noticeable in effect online.

CyKosis1973 · Jun 29, 2012

Thank you very much, most appreciated. There are definite patterns emerging now, I'll endeavour to post the results so far, for all to see.

In the meantime though, if anyone else wants to fill out this first questionnaire, I'd be a happy bunny

{Cy}

CyKosis1973 · Jul 3, 2012

Later than promised, I know. My wife and I have now applied nearly 30 litres of paint to the lounge and stairway, which according to the manufacturer, covers 18 m² per litre :crazy:

So that's why I'm behind, sorry.

Anyway, here's what was promised. Have a look and see what you think. I hope it's fairly self-explanatory...

{Cy}

Suspension Flowchart ## FWD Oversteer Questionnaire Posted ##

CyKosis1973

trackripper123

rams1de

nomis3613

schlep16

CyKosis1973

CyKosis1973

nomis3613

bs13

CyKosis1973

CyKosis1973

krenkme

CyKosis1973

trackripper123

USARMYCOMBATVET

CyKosis1973

trackripper123

esoxhntr

CyKosis1973

JackWilson

CyKosis1973

JackWilson

nomis3613

CyKosis1973

CyKosis1973

CyKosis1973

CSLACR

CSLACR

CyKosis1973

CyKosis1973

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