Winston Cup INTEREST CHECK CLOSED/ MOVED TO RACING SERIES THREAD

NASCAR Winston Cup Series
Has moved to here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7357105#post7357105

CONCEPT
The idea is to re-create Vintage Muscle Car/Stock Car racing. This series will be primarily raced on Oval Tracks. But the one element that will set this series apart from others is its Roots to Grass-Roots Racing. I will feature a few created tracks or "Home Tracks" into this series.

SYNOPSIS
This series will copy from the 1971 NASCAR season. In this season they held combined, mixed-division races due to low attendance and dis-interest. Examples from the '71 season include "Texas 500" at Texas World Speedway (old defunct 2.0mi SuperSpeedway) where Winston Cup cars raced with Grand American spec'd cars. Also the "Miller High Life 500" when Winston Cup combined raced with the Winston West Series spec'd cars. Other examples date pre-1970 when Winston West would combine with Late Model Sportsman Divisions and/or Pacific Coast Late Model Sportsman Divisions.


INTEREST CHECK SUMMARY
Select vintage american muscle cars
No tire/fuel strategy - pending, maybe only created tracks and ON for tracks with Pit Stops
30 minute races
1 or 2 races on Race Day
Race Days/Schedule TBD
Series may start in 2013
9 race schedule
Looking to get series started and done in a Two-Month Season.
Minimal Tuning to be required.
Series aimed towards Driver Skill & Fun.
Competition Caution at 1/3rd or 1/2nd of Race.
Races will have one or two opening pace laps for tire warmup, regriding and formation.
Most or All Races will be Double File Start and ReStart.


CAR SPECS

Parts/Tuning/Mods allowed:
Engine Upgrades 1,2 & 3
Weight Reduction Stage 1,2 & 3 (or less if noted)
Window Weight Reduction
Carbon Hood
Chassis Reinforcement
Full Upgraded Drivetrain
Custom Transmission
Custom Suspension
Exhaust Parts, Intake Parts, Superchargers & Aerodynamics allowed only on certain cars.

Oil Change as much as needed
Recommend Rebuild Chassis & Engine


Tuning the engine is free. Can use restrictor plates, stock engines or engine upgrades.

Testing Log Here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7307616#post7307616

Winston Cup & Div. II
- No 6 Speed GearBoxes (No Buick)
- No add-on GT-Auto Wings (unless otherwise noted) or Hideous, Huge Wings
- Ballast is allowed to tune weight.

Winston Cup Only
- No Front Aero Options; Rear Aero not allowed to install; only car to have a wing is "Superbird"

Grand American Only
- Front Aero Allowed (non-adjustable) (Camaro Z28, Mustamg Mach 1 & Challenger R/T allowed.)
- Rear Aero Allowed (No Hiedeous, Huge Wings. Small "Stock" Style Wings allowed.)

Un-Official Current Specs & Regulations are as follows:


REGULATIONS
ABS @ 1
No Other Driving Aids
Tire Wear OFF or ON - pending track
Grip LOW
Light Damage - pending, may be turned OFF
Slipstream WEAK
Boost OFF

Race Regulations
Grid Start with 2 or more Formation Laps (Pace Laps)(See Pace Lap Procedure)
Competition Caution at 1/3rd Race Distance (See Competition Caution Procedure)

Room opens on the hour. Free Run/Tuning/Practice for 15min. Then track reset and Qualifying begins. Qualifying lasts approximately 15min. (See Qualifying/Inspection Procedure)

Series Notes:
Race Day will only be 1 hour long with Free Run, Qualifying/Inspection & Race.


Championship's
Winston Cup Championship
Div. II Stock Cars Championship
*A driver can only chose one Division.
Makes Championship (combines Top 2 points in combined field from each make)

Driver's Championship Points Breakdown:
20-1st/18-2nd/16-3rd/15-4th/14-5th/12-6th/11-7th/10-8th/9-9th/8-10th/7-11th/6-12th/5-13th/4-14th/3-15th/2-6th
+1pt Pole (in each Division)
+1pt Most Laps Led
+1pt Leading a Lap

TomMcD

So, do the 2nd tier races run as support races separate to the main series or do they run multi class? I didn't think multi-class and NASCAR particularly mixed so I thought I'd understood it wrong.

Click to expand...

They run the same race together. Division 1 is for a driver who wants to fine tune one "Cup Car" for all 9 races. Division II is for drivers who like a challenge of tuning multiple cars over the course of the series (Div. II is meant for a Muscle-Head & Div. I is for a strong competitor).

NASCAR did do mixed racing in 1968-1972, not all races were mixed, maybe ten were in a season. Only one driver can win a race, so some races will have Winston Cup winners and some will not. Instead they may be won by a Grand Am driver. If a Grand Am driver wins, they get first place points. And if a Winston Cup driver comes in second to the Grand Am driver, they would receive only 2nd place points. They did do that in 1968-1972. This lead to controversial wins, as you might suspect.

I will be racing in Div.II; All interested drivers are to select a division and a make. Division II drivers will be driving various cars for their make only.

PROCEDURES ADDED

Qualifying Procedure

Qualify for 10minutes. Stay in pitbox when done with laps. The host will write the lap times down in grid order and set pole position. Driver on Pole will receive +1pt. Bonus to the Race Points they accumulate.
The host will then call everyone off the track. The host will reset the track and start the Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure. Drivers will be able to switch to race tune sheet in their settings at this time.



Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure

***THIS WILL CHANGE ONCE EVERY CARS HP IS FINALIZED***

***Important*** Once a driver is called to track, they are not to leave the pit box at all.

EXAMPLE -

I.)Set Regulations: 350hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Mustang Mach 1 (1400kg)

II.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cougar XR-7

III.)Set Regulations: 380hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cuda 440 Six Pack

IV.)Set Regulations: 385hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Camaro Z28

V.)Set Regualtions: 405hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: LeMans GTO


Pre-Race Pace Laps Procedure

If this is a 30 lap Race. We will add +3 Laps to the beginning. Thus making it 33 Laps.

Lap 1 - Red Flag. Host will call out Grid Formation in Order from Qualifying. The driver who's name is called is to pull to back stretch in position/order they are/were called in.
Lap 2 - Yellow Flag. This is a Parade Lap. Speed Limit TBD per track. Typically 55mph.
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap; Race Start at Start Line. driver's are to accelerate up to Top Speed Once they reach the Front Stretch. No Passing Till After Turn 1. Race Begins.


Competition Caution Procedure

Will be held at 1/3rd of Race Distance. If this is a 30 lap Race with +3 Laps for Pre-Race Pace Laps = 33 Laps. We will add an additional 3 Laps to the Total Lap Count. Thus Equaling 36 Laps. (3 Pre-Race Pace Laps / 30 Race Laps + 3 Laps Under Competition Caution = 36 Laps)
With the Competition Caution being held at 1/3rd Race Distance we will use this model:
30 Race Laps with Competition Included (33 Laps) = (10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps).
And if you include the Pre-Race Pace Laps a Typical 30 Lap Race will be broken down such as:
3 Pre-Race Pace laps / 10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps = Total 36 Laps. This way we get to drive the full race distance.


Once the Lead driver passes the line on the starting lap of the Competition Caution, he is to slow down to the appropriate, pre-determined speed limit. All cars one lap down may take a "Go-Around" but may not pass another lapped-car for position.

Lap 1 - Re-Formation / Lapped cars get one lap back
Lap 2 - Parade Lap
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap & Race Restart


ADDITIONAL YELLOW FLAG / CAUTION PROCEDURES

If there is any accident on Lap 1 of Race Start or on lap 1 after the Competition Caution Race Restart we will do another Caution for 3 Laps as Outlined in the Competition Caution or Pre-Race Pace Laps. With the exclusion to "Go-Arounds", Only one "Lucky-Dog" Driver may take a pass around and get a lap back if needed.

If there is a major wreck that involves 33% of the field (5/16 cars) there will be any additional Caution periods. These types of Cautions will have a Red Flag. All cars will Stop in Order. Only a "Lucky Dog" may get a wave around during this Red Flag. No Cars are to change position.

Now these additional Cautions should not be a problem. As we are not driving full power NASCARs.

If there is an incident between two drivers, you are to stay off the driving line to the side of the track until traffic clears. Then the driver who caused the incident must let the victim driver ahead of him for at least one full lap till he may attempt to pass him again.
If any one driver gets loose or spun around on his own, he is to follow the same procedure as above to stay out of traffic.
Any serious two to four car incidents after Competition Caution will be reviewed for possible Post-Race Penalties. Penalties may include loss of finishing position or a time deduction up to 30 seconds. Penalties will be at Host's discretion.
Individuals involved in any said incidents should PM me your concerns and to be as specific so the Host can Review as effectively as possible.



NASCAR Winston Cup Series

Detailed Car Specs & Regulations Here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7307715#post7307715

Division I - Winston Cup (Winston Cup Championship) SPECS: 1400kg 190mph or 49.7-49.9 lap @ Daytona

FORD
1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.)

CHRYSLER
1970 Plymouth Superbird (Plymouth-Chrysler)
1970 Dodge Charger 440 R/T (Dodge-Chrysler)

GMC
1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 ss (Chevrolet-GMC)


Division II - Winston West / Late Model Sportsman / Grand American (Div. II Stock Cars Championship) SPECS: 1400kg 190mph or 50.2-50.3 lap @ Daytona

FORD
1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Winston West)
1971 Ford Mustang Mach 1 (Ford Mustang-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American)
1967 Mercury Cougar XR-7 (Mercury/Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)

GMC
1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
1969 Chevrolet Camaro SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 (Chevrolet Camaro-GMC) (Grand American)
1964 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO (Pontiac-GMC) (Late Model Sportsman)

CHRYSLER
1971 Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi (Dodge-Chrysler) (Winston West)
1971 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack (Plymouth-Chrysler) (Winston West)
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T (Dodge-Chrysler) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)


Championships
Winston Cup Championship (Div. I Driver's Points Championship)
Div. II Stock Cars Championship (Div. II Driver's Points Championship)
Makes Championship (GMC/Ford Motors Co./Chrysler)


Schedule Concept
Combined Division I & II races. Set weight restriction to 1400kg. Enter each car model by HP restriction starting with the lowest HP restriction first and enter each car model with each change in restriction. No car that passes restriction is to leave the pit-box and enter the lobby. If you do so it will be deemed as cheating.

I will be clear on voice chat and type chat to when you are to have your car spec'd and I will give you an additional minute to go through your settings one last time. If someone leaves the pitpox they have forfeited the race as we will not waste our time going through the restrictions once more. It needs to be done in order to be done efficiently and effectively.

There will be 15 minute Qualifying Session before Race. Bonus Point will be given to Pole Sitter. Grid will be set by Pole Position. Pace Laps are in place to set correct Grid Positions.

Race ## Div. I / Div. II Combined Race

Race #1 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST
Race #2 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #3 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #4 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST
Race #5 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #6 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #7 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #8 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #9 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST



Driver's are to pick a Division and pick a make.

If you are in Division I you will be driving one car all series if you are in a Ford or a Chevy. If you are Div. I Chrysler you can switch between the Dodge and the Plymouth.

For Division II drivers you pick a make. Now each Make is a little unique. If are with Chrysler you will have the choice between Plymouth or Dodge for the Winston West Series and only the Challenger for the Late Model Sportsman & Grand American Series'. GMC drivers will have their choice between the Chevelle or Camaro SS in Winston West, a Pontiac GTO in Late Model Sportsman & a Camaro Z/28 in Grand American. GMC has the greatest selection in Div. II. Ford drivers in Div. II will have the Mustang Trans-Cammer in Winston West, a choice between the Mercury Cougar or Mustang Mach 1 in Grand American and only the Mercury Cougar in Late Model Sportsman.

Division I cars have more Top Speed and Torque. They also carry the heaviest engines. Division II cars have greater acceleration and less Horse-Power. Division I is meant for a Cup Driver who is looking to master their car on all circuits, fight for Cup Points and race hard for their make. Division II drivers are a little more accomplished, needing to know three disciplines. Division II will be fun for the experienced and difficult for the novice drivers.

Division II doesn't have any drawbacks to it. All cars in this series are spec'd at 1400kg. So handling will truely depend on the car's individual tendencies. And Top End Speed has been reduced a little from it's Cup Car counter-part to ensure better handling for all drivers of skill level.


TRACK SELECTION

Race ## Div. I / Div. II Combined Race

Race #1 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST "Daytona 100"
@ Daytona SuperSpeedway

Race #2 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN "Motor Trend 50"
@ Grand Valley East Reverse or High Speed Ring (in place of Riverside or Sonoma)

Race #3 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN "Myers Brothers 30"
@ Bowman-Gray (created Tokyo Bay Left Turn .30mi Oval)

Race #4 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST "Miller High Life 100"
@ Indy Motor Speedway (this is in place of Ontario Speedway, CA "Indy of the West")

Race #5 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN "Fair Stock 50"
@ Milwaukee Mile (created Tokyo Bay Left Turn .89mi Oval)

Race #6 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN "Lincoln 40"
@ Illinois State Fairgrounds (created Leige (Gravel) Course Right Turn Only 1.3mi Dirt Oval)

Race #7 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN "Greenville 100"
@ Greensville-Pickens (created Tokyo Bay Left Turn .49mi Oval)

Race #8 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN "Rebel 100"
@ Motegi Speedway (this is in place of Darlington Speedway)

Race #9 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST "Copper State 100"
@ Phoenix International Raceway (created Tokyo Bay Left Turn .87mi Kidney Bean Oval)



Revisions:
Currently Revising OP and put Test Log on Post #3

Dare I suggest a Speedway Division using the Tank Car (No turbo)?

TESTING LOG

ORIGINAL IDEA

CAR SPECS
500pp Limit
3.85 PWR
1323kg - 1410kg
343-366hp
Sports Soft Tires & Dirt Tires

Parts/Tuning/Mods allowed:
Engine Upgrades 1,2 & 3
Weight Reduction Stage 1,2 & 3 (or less if noted)
Window Weight Reduction
Carbon Hood
Chassis Reinforcement
Full Upgraded Drivetrain
Custom Transmission
Custom Suspension

Oil Change as much as needed
Recommend Rebuild Chassis & Engine

Recommend Rear Aero Wing

Tuning the engine is free. Can use restrictor plates, stock engines or engine upgrades.


PROHIBITED PARTS/UPGRADES
No Ballast (must tune weight accordingly to your specific make)
No ECU
No Intake Parts
No Exhaust Parts
No Superchargers or Turbos


CAR SELECTION


CAR SELECTION A

Original Idea (more general from 1964-1972, open selection, no hold's):

FORD MOTORS CO./MERCURY
357-365hp
1378-1408kg

Mustang Mach 1 (357hp 1378kg)
Cougar XR-7 (365hp 1408kg)

GENERAL MOTORS CORP./CHEVY,PONTIAC & BUICK
345-366hp
1329-1410kg

Chevelle SS (345hp 1329kg)
LeMans GTO (366hp 1410kg)
Buick Special (354hp 1364kg)

CHRYSLER CORP./PLYMOUTH-DODGE
343-363hp
1323-1398kg

Charger 440 R/T (348hp 1343kg)
Superbee 426 Hemi (360hp 1389kg)
Challenger R/T (363hp 1398kg)
Cuda 440 Six Pack (349hp 1345kg)
Superbird (343hp 1323kg)


NOTE - Camaro Z28 & SS needed a Supercharger to meet Horse Power Requirements. I don't want to use added Turbos. Trans Cammer is hefty at 1470kg and has non-removeable Intake & Exhaust parts built into the car.


CAR SELECTION B

Jahgee made a good suggestion of combining the NASCAR Grand National Cars & Grand American Cars for 6 races. I do like this idea but would require different car specs.


Could do (drop some cars for more realism and mold this into the 1971 series):


Grand National
3.63 PWR
400-425hp 1450-1500kg
ALLOW INTAKE & EXHAUST PARTS (Only Change from Regulations)

FORD MOTORS CO./MERCURY
Trans-Cammer (in place of the Ford Torino Talladega since GT5 doesn't have one)

GENERAL MOTORS CORP./CHEVY
Chevelle SS

CHRYSLER CORP./PLYMOUTH-DODGE
Charger 440 R/T
Cuda 440 Six Pack
Superbee 426 Hemi


Grand American
4.16 PWR
300-350hp 1200-1300kg
ALLOW INTAKE & EXHAUST PARTS (Only Change from Regulations)

FORD MOTORS CO./MERCURY
Mustang Mach 1
Cougar XR-7

GENERAL MOTORS CORP./CHEVY
Camaro Z28
Camaro SS


TEST #1
Now I did more vigorous testing and here's my results:

kenkwilinski

Did lots of testing over the weekend. I did speed tests at SSRX on my GT Home Menu. Tests results were:

Trans-Cammer (382hp 1470kg 427cu.in. V8) 182.0mph
Mustang Mach 1 (357hp 1378kg) 174.6mph
Cougar XR-7 (365hp 1408kg) 175.4mph
Chevelle SS (345hp 1329kg) 153.8mph
LeMans GTO (366hp 1410kg) 171.8mph
Buick Special (354hp 1364kg) 173.7mph
Charger 440 R/T (348hp 1343kg) 161.0mph
Superbee 426 Hemi (360hp 1389kg) 164.8mph
Challenger R/T (363hp 1398kg) 165.1mph
Cuda 440 Six Pack (349hp 1345kg) 167.3mph
Superbird (343hp 1323kg) 172.6mph

Well this was apparent not all cars were equally performing at spec. So I took into consideration what Jaghee said about doing two classes. So I investigated more into the cars individually.

Trans-Cammer (382hp 1470kg) Has a semi-racing Exhaust factory installed (non-removable). Doesn't allow any Aerodynamics Installed. Has No Intake Parts Installed. Car(at car's lowest weight) has 70kg more weight than specs desire.
Mustang Mach 1 (357hp 1378kg) Has Front Aero Options. Lowest Weight is 1309kg.
Cougar XR-7 (365hp 1408kg) Lowest Weight is 1181kg.
Chevelle SS (345hp 1329kg)
LeMans GTO (366hp 1410kg)
Buick Special (354hp 1364kg 455cu.in. V8) Has a 6 speed transmission.
Charger 440 R/T (348hp 1343kg)
Superbee 426 Hemi (360hp 1389kg)
Challenger R/T (363hp 1398kg) Has Front Aero Options.
Cuda 440 Six Pack (349hp 1345kg)
Superbird (343hp 1323kg) Has Huge Rear Wing (non-adjustable).
Camaro Z28 (348hp 1400kg to 1173kg) Has Front Aero Options
Camaro SS (305hp 1390kg to 1166kg) Has No front Aero.

This helped make a few decisions.

Grand National & Grand American
- No 6 Speed GearBoxes (No Buick)
- No Semi-Racing Exhaust (No Trans-Cammer)
- No add-on GT-Auto Wings (unless otherwise noted) or Hideous, Huge Wings; This includes Gigantic Stock Wings that are even non-adjustable. (No Superbird)
- Ballast is allowed to tune weight.

Grand National Only
- No Front Aero Options

Grand American
- Front Aero Allowed (non-adjustable) (Camaro Z28, Mustamg Mach 1 & Challenger R/T allowed.)
- Rear Aero Allowed (No Hiedeous, Huge Wings. Small "Stock" Style Wings allowed.)

I re-tested with the idea of having all the cars Top Speeds match. To acheive this I increased HP per each individual car as needed.

Trans-Cammer (350hp 1470kg) 176.8mph
Mustang Mach 1 (357hp 1378kg) 174.6mph
Cougar XR-7 (365hp 1408kg) 175.4mph
Chevelle SS (495hp 1329kg 454cu.in. V8) 173.0mph
LeMans GTO (366hp 1410kg) 171.8mph
Charger 440 R/T (435hp 1343kg) 173.3mph
Superbee 426 Hemi (405hp 1389kg) 171.4mph
Cuda 440 Six Pack (365hp 1400kg) 174.9mph

Now I felt I was getting somewhere.

The Trans-Cammer (350hp 1470kg) 176.8mph obviously needs to be detuned to work in specs. This can be cheated in a lobby so with it having a Non-Removeable Semi-Racing Exhaust, 70kg more weight than desired and 15hp less to under-perform I decided to cut this car from the field.

The Charger 440 R/T (435hp 1343kg) 173.3mph & Superbee 426 Hemi (405hp 1389kg) 171.4mph need over 400+hp each which is over spec to perform. I felt this should be cut too.

The Chevelle SS (495hp 1329kg) 173.0mph is near 500HP now thats a definite cut from the field.

We now have this, I added engine size next to specs:

Grand National
Cougar XR-7 (365hp 1408kg 390cu.in. V8) 175.4mph
LeMans GTO (366hp 1410kg 389cu.in. V8) 171.8mph
Cuda 440 Six Pack (365hp 1400kg 440cu.in. V8) 174.9mph

Grand American (Need to test these Top Speeds)
Mustang Mach 1 (350hp 1400kg 351cu.in. V8)
Camaro Z28 (348hp 1400kg 320cu.in. V8)
Challenger R/T (350hp 1400kg 426cu.in. V8)

With the Challenger's Oversized Engine and being known to out-power the Camaro on Straightaways it was an easy decision to ban this car as well.

This brought in a couple more regulations to add:

Grand National
6000cc-7210cc; 440cu.in. max

Grand American
5999cc or less; 388cu.in. max

I need to test the Top Speed of the Camaro & Mach 1 at Grand American Specs. Then I need to test all the cars at Daytona to see if lap times are compareable. Then lastly, I want to raise the Top Speed from 175mph in Grand National Division to 185mph. I hope the Grand American specs workout well in testing. And then I can wrap-up the car specs. That will leave plenty of time for track selection and testing.

Click to expand...

REVISION #1
LATEST REVISION:

kenkwilinski

So the Un-Official Current Specs & Regulations are as follows:

Race Regulations
Grip Reduction Low
No Fuel Consumption/Tire Wear
No Damage
No Boost
No Penalties
Slipstream Weak
Grid Start with 2 or more Formation Laps (Pace Laps)(See Pace Lap Procedure)
Competition Caution at 1/3rd Race Distance (See Competition Caution Procedure)

Room opens on the hour. Free Run/Tuning/Practice for 15min. Then track reset and Qualifying begins. Qualifying lasts approximately 15min. (See Qualifying/Inspection Procedure)

Series Notes:
Series to be for Fun & Driver Skill.
Schedule TBD
Series to be completed in 2 months.
9 race provisional schedule. Tracks TBD.
Races will last only 25 minutes.
Race Day will only be 1 hour long with Free Run, Qualifying/Inspection & Race.

Championship's
Grand National Driver's Championship
Grand American Driver's Championship
*A driver can only chose one Division.
Makes Championship (combines Top 2 points in combined field)

Driver's Championship Points Breakdown:
20-1st/18-2nd/16-3rd/15-4th/14-5th/12-6th/11-7th/10-8th/9-9th/8-10th/7-11th/6-12th/5-13th/4-14th/3-15th/2-6th
+1pt Pole (in each Division)
+1pt Most Laps Led
+1pt Leading a Lap

Pace Lap Procedure / Qualifying/Inspection Procedure / Competition Caution Procedure all to come soon!

Makes
Ford Motor Co. (Ford/Mercury)
General Motors Co. (Chevy/Pontiac)
Chrysler Corp. (Plymouth)

Up to a max of 3 cars allowed per model with the exception of 4 Plymouths allowed. This will give us a prefered balance of 10 cars Grand National & 6 cars Grand American.

Car Regulations
- No 6 speed transmissions
- No Aero allowed on Grand National Cars
- Front & rear Aero Allowed on Grand American Cars excluding over-sized Wings.
- Grand American Max Engine Displacement 388cu.in. or 5999cc or less.
- Grand National Max Engine Displacement 440cu.in. or 6000cc to 7210cc.
- Weight Tuning is open to all options/modifications including added ballast.
- Engine Tuning is open to all Stage 1,2 & 3 upgrades. Can use Stock engines (no upgrades too). May also use Restrictor Plate to limit engine output.
- No ECU, No Supercharger or Turbocharger, No Intake Parts/Mods & No Exhaust Parts/Mods (All Prohibited).
- Custom Transmission, Custom Suspension & Custom Drivetrain (upgraded) permitted.
- Chassis Reinforcement, Chassis Rebuilds, Engine Rebuilds & Oils Changes are all permitted and recommend to be done frequently.

Car Specs
Sports Soft Tires (all asphalt tracks) & Dirt Tires (if applicable)
No Driving Aids excluding ABS @ 1 (only acceptable aid)
Grand National: 365hp 1400kg 3.84pwr
Grand American: 350hp 1400kg 4.00pwr


Car Selection

Grand National
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 390cu.in. V8
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 389cu.in. V8
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 440cu.in. V8

Grand American
'69 Camaro Z28 320cu.in. V8
'71 Mustang Mach 1 351cu.in. V8

Click to expand...

TEST #2

kenkwilinski

New testing (Top Speed Testing @ SSRX) done last night and further equalization of the cars lead to these specific specs:

Grand National - Big Block V8's & No Aero/Wings
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 390cu.in. V8 365hp 1408kg 488pp 175.4mph
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 389cu.in. V8 385hp 1382kg 492pp 174.8mph
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 440cu.in. V8 365hp 1400kg 490pp 174.9mph

Grand American - Small Block V8's & Aero Permitted
'69 Camaro Z28 320cu.in. V8 365hp 1382kg 497pp with Aero & 488 without Aero 173.3mph (with full rear aero)
'71 Mustang Mach 1 351cu.in. V8 350hp 1400kg 505pp with Aero & 496pp without Aero 173.0mph(with full rear aero) & 173.3mph (without rear aero)

Click to expand...

TEST #3

kenkwilinski

DAYTONA TESTING

This data came out as planned. So the specs are checked out and accurate. 👍

Grand National
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 168mph 53.9xx avg. lap
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 168mph 54.0xx avg. lap
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 168mph 54.0xx avg. lap

Notes - Fastest Lap times from the fastest car to the slowest car vary only 0.139sec!!

Grand American
'69 Camaro Z28 167mph 54.6xx avg. lap
'71 Mustang Mach 1 167mph 54.5xx avg. lap

Notes - Fastest Lap times from the fastest car to the slowest car vary only 0.178sec!!

Testing notes - I used a "slap-on" Daytona Tune for each car, used no aero or minimum aero, set lsd to full lock and adjusted transmission appropriately. So with fine tuning for each individual car can make for even closer competition. I think these particular specs are final. Which will lead me to another write up on Procedures.

Click to expand...

PROCEDURES ADDED

kenkwilinski

Qualifying Procedure

Qualify for 10minutes. Stay in pitbox when done with laps. The host will write the lap times down in grid order and set pole position. Driver on Pole will receive +1pt. Bonus to the Race Points they accumulate.
The host will then call everyone off the track. The host will reset the track and start the Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure. Drivers will be able to switch to race tune sheet in their settings at this time.



Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure

*Important* Once a driver is called to track, they are not to leave the pit box at all.

I.)Set Regulations: 350hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Mustang Mach 1 (1400kg)

II.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Cougar XR-7

III.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cuda 440 Six Pack

IV.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: Camaro Z28

V.)Set Regualtions: 385hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: LeMans GTO


Pre-Race Pace Laps Procedure

If this is a 30 lap Race. We will add +3 Laps to the beginning. Thus making it 33 Laps.

Lap 1 - Red Flag. Host will call out Grid Formation in Order from Qualifying. The driver who's name is called is to pull to back stretch in position/order they are/were called in.
Lap 2 - Yellow Flag. This is a Parade Lap. Speed Limit TBD per track. Typically 55mph.
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap; Race Start at Start Line. driver's are to accelerate up to Top Speed Once they reach the Front Stretch. No Passing Till After Turn 1. Race Begins.


Competition Caution Procedure

Will be held at 1/3rd of Race Distance. If this is a 30 lap Race with +3 Laps for Pre-Race Pace Laps = 33 Laps. We will add an additional 3 Laps to the Total Lap Count. Thus Equaling 36 Laps. (3 Pre-Race Pace Laps / 30 Race Laps + 3 Laps Under Competition Caution = 36 Laps)
With the Competition Caution being held at 1/3rd Race Distance we will use this model:
30 Race Laps with Competition Included (33 Laps) = (10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps).
And if you include the Pre-Race Pace Laps a Typical 30 Lap Race will be broken down such as:
3 Pre-Race Pace laps / 10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps = Total 36 Laps. This way we get to drive the full race distance.


Once the Lead driver passes the line on the starting lap of the Competition Caution, he is to slow down to the appropriate, pre-determined speed limit. All cars one lap down may take a "Go-Around" but may not pass another lapped-car for position.

Lap 1 - Re-Formation / Lapped cars get one lap back
Lap 2 - Parade Lap
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap & Race Restart


ADDITIONAL YELLOW FLAG / CAUTION PROCEDURES

If there is any accident on Lap 1 of Race Start or on lap 1 after the Competition Caution Race Restart we will do another Caution for 3 Laps as Outlined in the Competition Caution or Pre-Race Pace Laps. With the exclusion to "Go-Arounds", Only one "Lucky-Dog" Driver may take a pass around and get a lap back if needed.

If there is a major wreck that involves 33% of the field (5/16 cars) there will be any additional Caution periods. These types of Cautions will have a Red Flag. All cars will Stop in Order. Only a "Lucky Dog" may get a wave around during this Red Flag. No Cars are to change position.

Now these additional Cautions should not be a problem. As we are not going to Daytona and SSRX with full power NASCARs.
If there is an incident between two drivers, you are to stay off the driving line to the side of the track until traffic clears. hen the driver who caused the incident must let the victim driver ahead of him for at least one full lap till he may attempt to pass him again.
If any one driver gets loose or spun around on his own, he is to follow the same procedure as above to stay out of traffic.
Any serious two to four car incidents after Competition Caution will be reviewed for possible Post-Race Penalties. Penalties may include loss of finishing position or a time deduction up to 30 seconds. Penalties will be at Host's discretion.
Individuals involved in any said incidents should PM me your concerns and to be as specific so the Host can Review as effectively as possible.

Click to expand...

EVALUATION #1

kenkwilinski

RE-EVALUATION OF SPECS:

Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure

*Important* Once a driver is called to track, they are not to leave the pit box at all.

I.)Set Regulations: 350hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Mustang Mach 1 496pp-505pp (1400kg) *Problem, will need to add +8kg ballast, which may also lead to a raise in HP (approx. +5hp).

II.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1408kg *Or, can set 1400kg for I.) & spec the Cougar to 1400kg also. But will need to lower the HP (approx. -5hp).
Call Cars to Track: Cougar XR-7 488pp

III.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cuda 440 Six Pack 490pp

IV.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: Camaro Z28 488pp-497pp

V.)Set Regualtions: 385hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: LeMans GTO 492pp


This is a little complicated but will work if done in correct order. Only problem is with the Mustang. So I think I should add +8kg of ballast to it. And probably raise HP about 5hp. Or can set the max weight to 1400kg, so the Cougar would loose -8kg and probably loose -5hp.

Also, notice the Performance Point Range of this group of cars. Very much all around 490pp. This may be another way of balancing the cars. I will keep investigating.

And lastly, since I have everything spec'd equally but each model has it's different regulations. So why not maybe add back in another GM, maybe a Ford and definitely at least one or two more Mopars (Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth).

EDIT - We can try 492pp if follow through with some of the adjustments I described above.

If we lower the weight of the Cougar we should get it up to 492pp . Can limit the HP on the Mustang to get it down to 492pp. The GTO is at 492pp already. The Cuda can raise HP to 492pp. The Camaro can add Aero +4pts for 492pp.

To make more sense of this we can set the weigh limit to 1400kg and let the Mustang, Cougar & Cuda in with the appropriate Power Regulations accordingly. Then set it again to 1382kg and let the Camaro & GTO in. Then to finally equalize the field with avoiding 6 steps of Power Regulations, we can just set the Perfromance Point Limit. So, to simplify this. The field will be set with 2 Weight Restrictions and finally a Performance Point restriction. This makes it only a 3 Step Inspection instead 6 or more if we added more cars.

If I add more cars with this system. I will allow for Racing Exhausts to be equipped.

Click to expand...

UPDATE SUMMARY

Before I decide which set of Regulations I will use and if I want to add more Cars to the Car Selection, I want to focus back on Our Ceiling for Top Speed. Right now we are currently at 175mph. I would like to raise that to 190mph. My calculations show thats an increase of 8.6% Power. I will choose to raise power rather than lower weight any further. I am set on 1382 to 1408kg Weight Restriction (obviously most likely settling for 1400kg as noted).

The only thing that worries me if I use a PP restriction along with the Weight Restriction is that the Equalization of the cars and testing I have done will go to waste. So I may just set one weight restriction at 1400kg. And adjust the restrictions each car at a time to it's proper HP.

Cars I would want to add:
Chevelle SS
Trans-Cammer (if allowed then Exhaust Parts may be added)
Charger R/T


Summary:

1. Confirm Specs
2. Confirm Max Top Speed
3. Confirm Car Selection


Then we can move on to Final Test Results / Finalization on Specs & Regulations. Then Track Selection along with the schedule. Once all this has been worked out we will open the thread for more discussion and take entries. Once we get up to pace with all of that we will lastly work out dates (TBD).


ADENDUM

kenkwilinski

TENTATIVE CAR LIST (revised 07/10/2012)

Grand National - Big Block V8's & No Aero/Wings
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 390cu.in. V8 365hp 1408kg 488pp 175.4mph
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 389cu.in. V8 385hp 1382kg 492pp 174.8mph
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 440cu.in. V8 365hp 1400kg 490pp 174.9mph
'70 Mustang Trans Cammer 427cu.in. V8 350hp 1470kg 485pp 176.8mph
'69 Charger 440 R/T 440cu.in. V8 435hp 1343kg 488pp 173.3mph
'71 Chevelle 454 SS 454cu.in. V8 495hp 1329kg 515pp 173.0mph

Grand American - Small Block V8's & Aero Permitted
'69 Camaro Z28 320cu.in. V8 365hp 1382kg 497pp with Aero & 488 without Aero 173.3mph (with full rear aero)
'71 Mustang Mach 1 351cu.in. V8 350hp 1400kg 505pp with Aero & 496pp without Aero 173.0mph(with full rear aero) & 173.3mph (without rear aero)


I will edit this with all cars at 1400kg and test/adjust each individual car's HP till the Grand National Cars acheive 190mph. And the Grand American Cars acheive 188mph. This is final and will be the spec. Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection still applies. Will amend that Procedure once this testing has been completed. And will most likely enter each model individually solely based on HP. Racing Exhaust Upgrade will be allowed. And No Aero is to remain on National Cars (prohibited). And Aero is still permitted on American Cars (only Camaro & Mustang Mach 1).

The reason I will keep the weight at 1400kg is because I don't want the cars too light. I still want them to feel slightly heavy like a true stock car. I don't want the handling to be too easy and I still want to be able to use Sports Soft Tires. Any heavier and Sports Tires become skilled to use. Or with too much added power this is true as well.

And I don't want full power or speeds in excess of 200mph for the benefit of reduced speeds equally greater competition.

So the sure specs are Sports Soft Tires ( after final testing I will determine if we use Sports Softs or Racing Hards), 1400kg & 190mph Top Speed. I am hoping the equalization of these cars still allow for racing on Sports Soft Tires. If the car is too much to handle or power is too high we will go with Racing Hard Tires for more grip. That will be determined later.

Click to expand...

REVISION #2.0

kenkwilinski

Provisional Car Specs
Top Speed Test @ SSRX = 190.Xmph
1400kg Sports Soft Tires

'64 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 500HP
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 470HP
'69 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 480HP
'69 Chevrolet Camaro SS 485HP
'70 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer 440HP
'70 Dodge Charger 440 R/T 580HP
'70 Plymouth Superbird 510HP
'71 Ford Mustang Mach 1 465HP
'71 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS 660HP
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 470HP
'71 Dodge Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi 560HP


Makes Championship

Pontiac/General Motors
'64 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 500HP

Mercury/Ford
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 470HP

Chevrolet Camaro
'69 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 480HP

Chevrolet/General Motors
'69 Chevrolet Camaro SS 485HP
'71 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS 660HP

Ford Motor Co.
'70 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer 440HP

Ford Mustang
'71 Ford Mustang Mach 1 465HP

Dodge/Chrysler
'70 Dodge Charger 440 R/T 580HP
'71 Dodge Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi 560HP

Plymouth/Chrysler
'70 Plymouth Superbird 510HP
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 470HP

Click to expand...

REVISION #2.1

kenkwilinski

I took the day off from testing last night to let this boil in my brain. And after careful review of the tracks and car selection available to us I came up with this. This is provisional and subject to change.

NASCAR Vintage Stock Car Series

Division I - Winston Cup (Winston Cup Championship) SPECS: 1400kg 195mph

1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.)

1970 Plymouth Superbird (Plymouth-Chrysler)
1970 Dodge Charger 440 R/T (Dodge-Chrysler)

1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 ss (Chevrolet-GMC)


Division II - Winston West / Late Model Sportsman / Grand American (Div. II Stock Cars Championship) SPECS: 1400kg 185mph

1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Winston West)
1971 Ford Mustang Mach 1 (Ford Mustang-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American)
1967 Mercury Cougar XR-7 (Mercury/Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)

1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
1969 Chevrolet Camaro SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 (Chevrolet Camaro-GMC) (Grand American)
1964 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO (Pontiac-GMC) (Late Model Sportsman)

1971 Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi (Dodge-Chrysler) (Winston West)
1971 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack (Plymouth-Chrysler) (Winston West)
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T (Dodge-Chrysler) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)


Championships
Winston Cup Championship (Div. I Driver's Points Championship)
Div. II Stock Cars Championship (Div. II Driver's Points Championship)
Makes Championship (GMC/Ford Motors Co./Chrysler)


Schedule Concept
Combined Division I & II races. Set weight restriction to 1400kg. Enter each car model by HP restriction starting with the lowest HP restriction first and enter each car model with each change in restriction. No car that passes restriction is to leave the pit-box and enter the lobby. If you do so it will be deemed as cheating.

I will be clear on voice chat and type chat to when you are to have your car spec'd and I will give you an additional minute to go through your settings one last time. If someone leaves the pitpox they have forfeited the race as we will not waste our time going through the restrictions once more. It needs to be done in order to be done efficiently and effectively.

There will be 15 minute Qualifying Session before Race. Bonus Point will be given to Pole Sitter. Grid will be set by Pole Position. Pace Laps are in place to set correct Grid Positions.

Race ## Div. I / Div. II Combined Race

Race #1 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST
Race #2 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #3 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #4 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST
Race #5 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #6 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #7 WINSTON CUP / LATE MODEL SPORTSMAN
Race #8 WINSTON CUP / GRAND AMERICAN
Race #9 WINSTON CUP / WINSTON WEST



Driver's are to pick a Division and pick a make.

If you are in Division I you will be driving one car all series if you are in a Ford or a Chevy. If you are Div. I Chrysler you can switch between the Dodge and the Plymouth.

For Division II drivers you pick a make. Now each Make is a little unique. If are with Chrysler you will have the choice between Plymouth or Dodge for the Winston West Series and only the Challenger for the Late Model Sportsman & Grand American Series'. GMC drivers will have their choice between the Chevelle or Camaro SS in Winston West, a Pontiac GTO in Late Model Sportsman & a Camaro Z/28 in Grand American. GMC has the greatest selection in Div. II. Ford drivers in Div. II will have the Mustang Trans-Cammer in Winston West, a choice between the Mercury Cougar or Mustang Mach 1 in Grand American and only the Mercury Cougar in Late Model Sportsman.

Division I cars have more Top Speed and Torque. They also carry the heaviest engines. Division II cars have greater acceleration and less Horse-Power. Division I is meant for a Cup Driver who is looking to master their car on all circuits, fight for Cup Points and race hard for their make. Division II drivers are a little more accomplished, needing to know three disciplines. Division II will be fun for the experienced and difficult for the novice drivers.

Division II doesn't have any drawbacks to it. All cars in this series are spec'd at 1400kg. So handling will truely depend on the car's individual tendencies. And Top End Speed has been reduced a little from it's Cup Car counter-part to ensure better handling for all drivers of skill level.

Click to expand...

Revisions:
Currently Revising OP and put Test Log on Post #3

kenkwilinski

I'm saving that series for the future One thing at a time. Let me properly introduce some cool dirt tracks first before we get carried away the era I am aiming at is 1964-1972 not 30's, that's a different type of vintage racing

Click to expand...

NASCAR's Speedway Division was conceived in 1952 by Bill France as a competitor to the IndyCar Series held back then. It was held in 1952-1953, so its not that old. Now in the time frame you're aiming for, there were 2 stock car series held by NASCAR, the Grand Nationals (The one you are planning) and the Grand American's (Pony car racing). Maybe we could do the 6 crossover races held in 1971 because of the shrinking fields. The cars used in the Grand American division was Ford Mustangs, Chevrolet Camaros, AMC Javelins, Mercury Cougars & Pontiac Trans Am. The only reason I know this is I have a NASCAR reference book that is very extensive

NASCAR Winston Cup Series



Division I - Winston Cup (Winston Cup Championship)
SPECS: 1400kg 190mph or 49.7-49.9 / lap @ Daytona
NO AERO / NO GT AUTO WINGS / NO ECU / NO SUPERCHARGER


FORD

1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.)
427cu.in. SOHC V8 661HP Stock (6998cc)
Stock Engine @ 64.1% + Racing Exhaust = 440HP
WR3/WWR/CR/No Ballast (1470kg)/514PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.9mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:


CHRYSLER

1970 Plymouth Superbird (Plymouth-Chrysler)
426cu.in. HEMI V8 419HP Stock (6981cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 85.4% + Racing Exhaust = 510HP
WR3/WWR/CR/+77kg Ballast/525PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.4mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time: 50.1 (need to re-test & possibly add more HP)

1970 Dodge Charger 440 R/T (Dodge-Chrysler)
440cu.in. OHV V8 375HP Stock (7210cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 99.1% + Racing Exhaust/SEM/CC = 580HP
WR3/WWR/CR/+57kg Ballast/539PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.4mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time: 49.7


GMC

1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS (Chevrolet-GMC)
454cu.in. L56 V8 495HP Stock (7440cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 99.6% + Racing Exhaust/SEM/CC/SIM = 670HP
WR3/WWR/CR/+71kg Ballast/548PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.4mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time: 49.8



Division II - Winston West / Late Model Sportsman / Grand American (Div. II Stock Cars Championship)
SPECS: 1400kg 190mph or 50.2-50.3 / lap @ Daytona
NO ECU / NO AERO or WINGS unless noted / NO SUPERCHARGER unless noted


FORD

1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer (Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Winston West)
427cu.in. SOHC V8 661HP Stock (6998cc)
Stock Engine @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust = xxxHP
WR3/WWR/CR/No Ballast (1470kg)/xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:

1971 Ford Mustang Mach 1 (Ford Mustang-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American)
351cu.in. RAM AIR V8 300HP Stock (5752cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust = xxxHP
WR2/WWR/CR/+22kg Ballast/ F & R AERO / xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:

1967 Mercury Cougar XR-7 (Mercury/Ford-Ford Motors Co.) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)
390cu.in. V8 330HP Stock (6391cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust = xxxHP
WR1/WWR/CR/+106kg Ballast/xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Dayton Lap Time:


GMC

1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
454cu.in. L56 V8 495HP Stock (7440cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust/SEM/CC/SIM = xxxHP
WR3/WWR/CR/+71kg Ballast/xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:

1969 Chevrolet Camaro SS (Chevrolet-GMC) (Winston West)
396cu.in. L35 V8 321HP Stock (5737cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 87.8% + Racing Exhaust/SEM/CC/SIM/RAF/SUPERCHARGER = 485HP
WWR/CR/+9kg Ballast/523PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.9mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:

1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 (Chevrolet Camaro-GMC) (Grand American)
320cu.in. OHV V8 290HP Stock (4949cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 99.6% + Racing Exhaust/SEM/CC = 480HP
WR1/WWR/CH/CR/+114kg Ballast/ F & R AERO / 539PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.2mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time: 50.2

1964 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO (Pontiac-GMC) (Late Model Sportsman)
389cu.in. OHV V8 325HP Stock (6375cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust = xxxHP
WR1/WWR/CR/+104kg Ballast/xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:


CHRYSLER

1971 Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi (Dodge-Chrysler) (Winston West)
426cu.in. HEMI V8 330HP Stock (6981cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ xxx% + Racing Exhaust = xxxHP
WR3/WWR/CR/+11kg Ballast/xxxPP
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time:

1971 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack (Plymouth-Chrysler) (Winston West)
440cu.in. Six Pack V8 405HP Stock (7210cc)
Engine Stage 3 @ 81.0% + Racing Exhaust = 470HP
WR2/WWR/CR/+55kg Ballast/520PP
Top Speed @ Test Track: 190.3mph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Time: 50.3

1970 Dodge Challenger R/T (Dodge-Chrysler) (Grand American & Late Model Sportsman)
426cu.in. HEMI V8 xxxHP Stock (6981cc)
Top Speed @ Test Track: xxxxmph
Daytona Top Speed:
Daytona Lap Tme:

*Note - These are suggested tunings. Engine tuning and weight tuning is free. HP is Mandatory!
Only restrictions are NO ECU / NO AERO or WINGS unless noted / NO SUPERCHARGER unless noted.

kenkwilinski

I kept the mustang and cougar because I determined the Trans Cammer won't work with the specs I'm to announce. Then there wouldn't be any Fords and we couldn't have that now. So to do a good mixed pony division I were to include the camaro but that car really lacks in power along with something to do with the specs I am to announce tomorrow. I do need help so this is a good start. I will put a post up on car selection n specs. Then we can start to go from there. And thanks for the input! 👍

Click to expand...

You're welcome. I am definitely interested in this series

Looks interesting man, I'm sure I've got a couple of tracks you could test out for this. You know Concord Speedway? Well i've got a short track with that same triangle layout, turns left and has slight camber in the corners. A fast circuit despite it's tight turns and length.

TomMcD

Looks interesting man, I'm sure I've got a couple of tracks you could test out for this. You know Concord Speedway? Well i've got a short track with that same triangle layout, turns left and has slight camber in the corners. A fast circuit despite it's tight turns and length.

Click to expand...

Yes I have heard of that track. Did you create it with tokyo bay? I don't want to use Eifel kart because of the elevations and track width. I want wide racing surfaces and flat turns or slight camber in the corners. I also have a few that turn left. Actually I will only use left turning tracks, I deleted my right turn tracks. Can you put Concord on your share for me to look at it?

kenkwilinski

Yes I have heard of that track. Did you create it with tokyo bay? I don't want to use Eifel kart because of the elevations and track width. I want wide racing surfaces and flat turns or slight camber in the corners. I also have a few that turn left. Actually I will only use left turning tracks, I deleted my right turn tracks. Can you put Concord on your share for me to look at it?

Click to expand...

It's Eiffel Kart but it's ridiculously flat, I think there's something like 18ft of gradual elevation across the entire track; barely noticeable. I'll stick it up tonight for you 👍

I can understand why you want to use the Tokyo bay tracks but one or two Eiffel Karts wouldn't be too bad since they have a bit of character whilst the Tokyo tracks are devoid of any bumps etc.

TomMcD

It's Eiffel Kart but it's ridiculously flat, I think there's something like 18ft of gradual elevation across the entire track; barely noticeable. I'll stick it up tonight for you 👍

I can understand why you want to use the Tokyo bay tracks but one or two Eiffel Karts wouldn't be too bad since they have a bit of character whilst the Tokyo tracks are devoid of any bumps etc.

Click to expand...

I'm not totally against Eifel but I haven't seen an Eifel Kart Track that was unnoticeably flat. Thanks, I can't wait to see it 👍

Edit

I've got a 0.32 mile Tokyo bay oval that could be used as All-American Speedway. It's set to online, so check it out whenever.

DrifterJoe

I've got a 0.32 mile Tokyo bay oval that could be used as All-American Speedway. It's set to online, so check it out whenever.

Click to expand...

I need that, the one I have is 0.30 mile for All-American. I can try yours and use mine for Lake Geneva. I could use a shorter track of around 0.25 miles for Bowman Gray as well. I would prefer not to use the same track for three different venues.

kenkwilinski

I need that, the one I have is 0.30 mile for All-American. I can try yours and use mine for Lake Geneva. I could use a shorter track of around 0.25 miles for Bowman Gray as well. I would prefer not to use the same track for three different venues.

Click to expand...

Make that 0.34 miles, I was thinking of another one I have.

Edit

Edit

I'm pretty sure the Z/28 is a 302, 5000cc equals 302 cu in, which was the limit for trans-am at the time and the Z/28 was made for trans-am along with the Boss 302 and Challenger T/A

this looks cool I'll be following 👍

lots of races in "wisconsin" on the schedule

rustyMercedes

I'm pretty sure the Z/28 is a 302, 5000cc equals 302 cu in, which was the limit for trans-am at the time and the Z/28 was made for trans-am along with the Boss 302 and Challenger T/A

this looks cool I'll be following 👍

lots of races in "wisconsin" on the schedule

Click to expand...

I'll have to double-check the Z28 now, but I recall GT5's info (GT Home in the garage) said 320 whether this is right or not, I'll investigate. But none-the-less The Grand American Division is set for Small Block V8's. So the Camaro will still fit in regardless along with the Mustang which I know isn't the 429 Boss Engine. One of the reasons I banned the Chally from Grand Am division was because of it's 426 Hemi.

And thanks for the interest 👍 Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana seem to be the heart or bread-n-butter of old Stock Car racing. Only seems fit. But the Track Selection is still pending. I'm still working on ideas for the schedule.

rustyMercedes

I'm pretty sure the Z/28 is a 302, 5000cc equals 302 cu in, which was the limit for trans-am at the time and the Z/28 was made for trans-am along with the Boss 302 and Challenger T/A

this looks cool I'll be following 👍

lots of races in "wisconsin" on the schedule

Click to expand...

Still haven't checked the car in-game. But you are correct on the displacement allowed when they were accepting trans-am cars. They later raised displacement to 366cu.in. for greater competition. That's what wiki had to say so regardless under that regulation the camaro n mustang still pass inspection for grand-american division.

EDIT: I checked the Camaro Z28 '69 in GT5 and it's a 320cu.in. Small Block V8 (4949cc). You are just refering to the Trans-Am spec engine, which was used a lot in the beginning of the NASCAR Grand Touring Series (which was later named NASCAR Grand American Series).

Edit

DAYTONA TESTING

This data came out as planned. So the specs are checked out and accurate. 👍

Grand National
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 168mph 53.9xx avg. lap
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 168mph 54.0xx avg. lap
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 168mph 54.0xx avg. lap

Notes - Fastest Lap times from the fastest car to the slowest car vary only 0.139sec!!

Grand American
'69 Camaro Z28 167mph 54.6xx avg. lap
'71 Mustang Mach 1 167mph 54.5xx avg. lap

Notes - Fastest Lap times from the fastest car to the slowest car vary only 0.178sec!!

Testing notes - I used a "slap-on" Daytona Tune for each car, used no aero or minimum aero, set lsd to full lock and adjusted transmission appropriately. So with fine tuning for each individual car can make for even closer competition. I think these particular specs are final. Which will lead me to another write up on Procedures.

Qualifying Procedure

Qualify for 10minutes. Stay in pitbox when done with laps. The host will write the lap times down in grid order and set pole position. Driver on Pole will receive +1pt. Bonus to the Race Points they accumulate.
The host will then call everyone off the track. The host will reset the track and start the Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure. Drivers will be able to switch to race tune sheet in their settings at this time.



Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure

*Important* Once a driver is called to track, they are not to leave the pit box at all.

I.)Set Regulations: 350hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Mustang Mach 1 (1400kg)

II.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Cougar XR-7

III.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cuda 440 Six Pack

IV.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: Camaro Z28

V.)Set Regualtions: 385hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: LeMans GTO


Pre-Race Pace Laps Procedure

If this is a 30 lap Race. We will add +3 Laps to the beginning. Thus making it 33 Laps.

Lap 1 - Red Flag. Host will call out Grid Formation in Order from Qualifying. The driver who's name is called is to pull to back stretch in position/order they are/were called in.
Lap 2 - Yellow Flag. This is a Parade Lap. Speed Limit TBD per track. Typically 55mph.
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap; Race Start at Start Line. driver's are to accelerate up to Top Speed Once they reach the Front Stretch. No Passing Till After Turn 1. Race Begins.


Competition Caution Procedure

Will be held at 1/3rd of Race Distance. If this is a 30 lap Race with +3 Laps for Pre-Race Pace Laps = 33 Laps. We will add an additional 3 Laps to the Total Lap Count. Thus Equaling 36 Laps. (3 Pre-Race Pace Laps / 30 Race Laps + 3 Laps Under Competition Caution = 36 Laps)
With the Competition Caution being held at 1/3rd Race Distance we will use this model:
30 Race Laps with Competition Included (33 Laps) = (10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps).
And if you include the Pre-Race Pace Laps a Typical 30 Lap Race will be broken down such as:
3 Pre-Race Pace laps / 10 Opening Race Laps / 3 Laps Under Competition Caution / 20 Closing Race Laps = Total 36 Laps. This way we get to drive the full race distance.


Once the Lead driver passes the line on the starting lap of the Competition Caution, he is to slow down to the appropriate, pre-determined speed limit. All cars one lap down may take a "Go-Around" but may not pass another lapped-car for position.

Lap 1 - Re-Formation / Lapped cars get one lap back
Lap 2 - Parade Lap
Lap 3 - Final Parade Lap & Race Restart


ADDITIONAL YELLOW FLAG / CAUTION PROCEDURES

If there is any accident on Lap 1 of Race Start or on lap 1 after the Competition Caution Race Restart we will do another Caution for 3 Laps as Outlined in the Competition Caution or Pre-Race Pace Laps. With the exclusion to "Go-Arounds", Only one "Lucky-Dog" Driver may take a pass around and get a lap back if needed.

If there is a major wreck that involves 33% of the field (5/16 cars) there will be any additional Caution periods. These types of Cautions will have a Red Flag. All cars will Stop in Order. Only a "Lucky Dog" may get a wave around during this Red Flag. No Cars are to change position.

Now these additional Cautions should not be a problem. As we are not going to Daytona and SSRX with full power NASCARs.
If there is an incident between two drivers, you are to stay off the driving line to the side of the track until traffic clears. hen the driver who caused the incident must let the victim driver ahead of him for at least one full lap till he may attempt to pass him again.
If any one driver gets loose or spun around on his own, he is to follow the same procedure as above to stay out of traffic.
Any serious two to four car incidents after Competition Caution will be reviewed for possible Post-Race Penalties. Penalties may include loss of finishing position or a time deduction up to 30 seconds. Penalties will be at Host's discretion.
Individuals involved in any said incidents should PM me your concerns and to be as specific so the Host can Review as effectively as possible.

RE-EVALUATION OF SPECS:

Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection Procedure

*Important* Once a driver is called to track, they are not to leave the pit box at all.

I.)Set Regulations: 350hp 1408kg
Call Cars to Track: Mustang Mach 1 496pp-505pp (1400kg) *Problem, will need to add +8kg ballast, which may also lead to a raise in HP (approx. +5hp).

II.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1408kg *Or, can set 1400kg for I.) & spec the Cougar to 1400kg also. But will need to lower the HP (approx. -5hp).
Call Cars to Track: Cougar XR-7 488pp

III.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1400kg
Call Cars to Track: Cuda 440 Six Pack 490pp

IV.)Set Regulations: 365hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: Camaro Z28 488pp-497pp

V.)Set Regualtions: 385hp 1382kg
Call Cars to Track: LeMans GTO 492pp


This is a little complicated but will work if done in correct order. Only problem is with the Mustang. So I think I should add +8kg of ballast to it. And probably raise HP about 5hp. Or can set the max weight to 1400kg, so the Cougar would loose -8kg and probably loose -5hp.

Also, notice the Performance Point Range of this group of cars. Very much all around 490pp. This may be another way of balancing the cars. I will keep investigating.

And lastly, since I have everything spec'd equally but each model has it's different regulations. So why not maybe add back in another GM, maybe a Ford and definitely at least one or two more Mopars (Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth).

EDIT - We can try 492pp if follow through with some of the adjustments I described above.

If we lower the weight of the Cougar we should get it up to 492pp . Can limit the HP on the Mustang to get it down to 492pp. The GTO is at 492pp already. The Cuda can raise HP to 492pp. The Camaro can add Aero +4pts for 492pp.

To make more sense of this we can set the weigh limit to 1400kg and let the Mustang, Cougar & Cuda in with the appropriate Power Regulations accordingly. Then set it again to 1382kg and let the Camaro & GTO in. Then to finally equalize the field with avoiding 6 steps of Power Regulations, we can just set the Perfromance Point Limit. So, to simplify this. The field will be set with 2 Weight Restrictions and finally a Performance Point restriction. This makes it only a 3 Step Inspection instead 6 or more if we added more cars.

If I add more cars with this system. I will allow for Racing Exhausts to be equipped.

I think the Chevelle should be in it, can't think of any other old Ford's in the game, and the Dodge Charger

rustyMercedes

I think the Chevelle should be in it, can't think of any other old Ford's in the game, and the Dodge Charger

Click to expand...

I agree too. The GTO is not strong enough on it's own to represent GM properly at the National Level. If I add the Chevelle and Charger, then I have to add one more Ford. I can add the Grand Touring Garage Ford Mustang Trans Cammer 1970.

If I add these cars, I would change the weight restriction to 1400kg. And set each cars power restriction accordingly. I will need to test and post my results for this to work.

Also, the Mustang Trans-Cammer is 1470kg but has that Semi-Racing Exhaust. This gives the car more power despite it's weight. I feel this car is almost an odd-ball out. But if we allow the Exhaust Parts to be permitted it would equalize the field despite the Trans-Cammers weight.

So when I test next I will add the Racing Exhaust on each car and set all weights at 1400kg. And I will raise Power till I can create 190mph avg. for each car in National Division. And I will try to acheive 188mph for American Division.

My Results will be posted in detail here, as always.

TENTATIVE CAR LIST (revised 07/10/2012)

Grand National - Big Block V8's & No Aero/Wings
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 390cu.in. V8 365hp 1408kg 488pp 175.4mph
'64 Tempest LeMans GTO 389cu.in. V8 385hp 1382kg 492pp 174.8mph
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 440cu.in. V8 365hp 1400kg 490pp 174.9mph
'70 Mustang Trans Cammer 427cu.in. V8 350hp 1470kg 485pp 176.8mph
'69 Charger 440 R/T 440cu.in. V8 435hp 1343kg 488pp 173.3mph
'71 Chevelle 454 SS 454cu.in. V8 495hp 1329kg 515pp 173.0mph

Grand American - Small Block V8's & Aero Permitted
'69 Camaro Z28 320cu.in. V8 365hp 1382kg 497pp with Aero & 488 without Aero 173.3mph (with full rear aero)
'71 Mustang Mach 1 351cu.in. V8 350hp 1400kg 505pp with Aero & 496pp without Aero 173.0mph(with full rear aero) & 173.3mph (without rear aero)


I will edit this with all cars at 1400kg and test/adjust each individual car's HP till the Grand National Cars acheive 190mph. And the Grand American Cars acheive 188mph. This is final and will be the spec. Post-Qualifying/Pre-Race Inspection still applies. Will amend that Procedure once this testing has been completed. And will most likely enter each model individually solely based on HP. Racing Exhaust Upgrade will be allowed. And No Aero is to remain on Grand National Cars (prohibited). And Aero is still permitted on Grand American Cars (only Camaro & Mustang Mach 1).

The reason I will keep the weight at 1400kg is because I don't want the cars too light. I still want them to feel slightly heavy like a true stock car. I don't want the handling to be too easy and I still want to be able to use Sports Soft Tires. Any heavier and Sports Tires become skilled to use. Or with too much added power this is true as well.

And I don't want full power or speeds in excess of 200mph for the benefit of reduced speeds equally greater competition.

So the sure specs are Sports Soft Tires ( after final testing I will determine if we use Sports Softs or Racing Hards), 1400kg & 190mph Top Speed. I am hoping the equalization of these cars still allow for racing on Sports Soft Tires. If the car is too much to handle or power is too high we will go with Racing Hard Tires for more grip. That will be determined later.

Provisional Car Specs
Top Speed Test @ SSRX = 190.Xmph
1400kg Sports Soft Tires

'64 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 500HP
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 470HP
'69 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 480HP
'69 Chevrolet Camaro SS 485HP
'70 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer 440HP
'70 Dodge Charger 440 R/T 580HP
'70 Plymouth Superbird 510HP
'71 Ford Mustang Mach 1 465HP
'71 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS 660HP
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 470HP
'71 Dodge Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi 560HP


Makes Championship

Pontiac/General Motors
'64 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 500HP

Mercury/Ford
'67 Mercury Cougar XR-7 470HP

Chevrolet Camaro
'69 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 480HP

Chevrolet/General Motors
'69 Chevrolet Camaro SS 485HP
'71 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 SS 660HP

Ford Motor Co.
'70 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer 440HP

Ford Mustang
'71 Ford Mustang Mach 1 465HP

Dodge/Chrysler
'70 Dodge Charger 440 R/T 580HP
'71 Dodge Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi 560HP

Plymouth/Chrysler
'70 Plymouth Superbird 510HP
'71 Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack 470HP

Working on Track Selection. Only thing holding me back from track schedule is the Car Selection. I tested all cars except Buick which is banned from this series. I also have been researching old races from late 60's & early 70's. That has brough tme to realize exactly what cars fit in where.

Such information has provided the cars I tested into 4 divisions. These divisions are Winston Cup, Winston West Series, Grand American & Late Model Sportsman Series. I can combine any division with another or toss a division out. Or do one division. Or do a USAC or ARCA theme. Choice is really up to all drivers that are to be interested in this series.

I have the specs laid-out for each car competitively and a huge track list to pull from (not all tracks listed in OP). I just need a little more direction. Any one care to help?

For the crossover races, NASCAR didn't equal the specs, they just ran their own series specs and let the drivers have at it.

Jahgee1124

For the crossover races, NASCAR didn't equal the specs, they just ran their own series specs and let the drivers have at it.

Click to expand...

I was thinking about that too. I am not sure how to de-spec the other classes. My thought was to tune HP to appropriate top speed like I have been. I have no intent on this series starting soon. So I have time to further develop that idea with testing and I can post more results.