Building d.i.y Pedals?

Mr Latte · Sep 30, 2012

Precision Performance Pedals

This may be a similar situation/consideration to what some have had...

My own thoughts were highlighted in the previous CSP V2 introduction thread in that I do not personally feel they go far enough in truly bringing a serious "race" inspired level of precision or build. This does not mean they are not a good product or improvement over the original but my own feelings are while the CSW wheel bridges the gap more to "professional sim wheels" than ever before the pedals are still left lacking a little in comparison to the real thing.

I have to admit to being tempted earlier in the year to commit to a set of CST F1 pedals but the long wait time puts me off. This is the level of build though I would like to eventually have.

Anyways I decided to hold off to see what DSD come's up with in their finished product but as yet the price has not been finalised and these could be expensive.

So this thread is about discussing building or adapting proper race pedals with additional hardware to see if it is possible to create a d.i.y solution. Additionally would such when all components/costs involved make it worthwhile to just biting the bullet and buying a highend set of pedals?

Worthwhile discussion anyone?

Viability of using current race pedals:
Controller Boards - Load Cell Amps:
Technical hurdles:
D.i.y Price Comparison/worthwhile:

OBP Pedals
Here is a typical brand that offer real race pedals in various guises.
So really how hard would it be to adapt something like these?

http://www.obpltd.com/

Spike125 · Sep 30, 2012

Some of the more professional simulators to buy in the market are using pedals like that.
The only thing you need to do is convert the oil pressure in an electric signal e.g. with a pressure sensor.
Imo that makes only sense for the brake and maybe with the clutch.

Mr Latte · Sep 30, 2012

Spike125
Some of the more professional simulators to buy in the market are using pedals like that.
The only thing you need to do is convert the oil pressure in an electric signal e.g. with a pressure sensor.
Imo that makes only sense for the brake and maybe with the clutch.

I would think it is possible to incorporate components from some brands of pedals or along the lines of leo bodner hardware etc.

Hoping others bring more light to the picture...
Indeed on some forums it is easy to see some people have already done such.

ravey1981 · Sep 30, 2012

I have been looking into doing exactly this, using an OBP pedal box (as they seem to be the cheapest on the market at a reasonable quality) My idea is to run pots for the clutch and throttle. The brake would be hydraulic, using a clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder from a real car (small hatchback). The slave cylinder would then press onto a load cell, via a linkage to get the correct pedal feel. One of Derek Speares boards with integrated load cell controller/amp would be used. As a rough guess on cost I think around £400 - £500.

zedfonsie · Sep 30, 2012

You could always contact Emery, he sells hydraulic pedals for $600.

Mr Latte · Sep 30, 2012

Well the thread is all about options and possibilities so be interesting to read more and get peoples opinions or own self accounts if they already offer or have such products/experience.

I'd like to point out this thread is NOT to take away interest from "Anyone/Brand" that sell such if anything the thread should also highlight the disadvantages in d.i.y as always. Cost effectiveness is one thing but really as a consumer with little free time as it is I appreciate such things as a quality product and warranty etc provide from a simple purchase.

I said before and totally believe their is a good size market for a professional set of pedals in the £400-£600 price point but also not like CST who take far far too long to ship orders.

ravey1981 · Sep 30, 2012

Who is Emery? Cant find him on the member list. Any links to photos etc of the pedals, could be of use as inspiration....

zedfonsie · Sep 30, 2012

ravey1981
Who is Emery? Cant find him on the member list. Any links to photos etc of the pedals, could be of use as inspiration....

Emery doesn't have a gtplanet, he is an Iracer. He is very well known to build the best hydraulic pedals, here are some pictures.

Mr Latte · Sep 30, 2012

"NOW THOSE ARE PEDALS!"

Is their a website for his pedals?
Would you like to welcome him here for discussion?

Gees those really hit the spot on the "looks awesome" department.

ravey1981 · Sep 30, 2012

They look great! The difficult bit is working out how they work.... The larger gold part is definitely some kind of slave cylinder, the red part looks like an elastomer (rubber spring in effect) that gives the pedal resistance when it is pressed....

The other gold part on top must be a pressure sensor measuring the pressure of the fluid in the system, which is then converted into a digital signal...

Would be very very interested to know what parts are used here....

Cheeba · Sep 30, 2012

zedfonsie
Emery doesn't have a gtplanet, he is an Iracer. He is very well known to build the best hydraulic pedals, here are some pictures.

Wow

my poor V2's are feeling a little small :nervous:

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

mrbasher · Sep 30, 2012

If you do build some DIY pedals, something like this could easily allow you to the connect them to your Fanatec or Logitech G25 or G27 wheel. Just throwing it out there. If you didn't do that it, the pedals would be PC only.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=265186

The way the hydraulic piece is typically handled is to use a slave cylinder with urethane bushings. When the cylinder is activated by the master cylinder is squishes the bushings. Between these slave and master cylinder is placed a pressure transducer that measures the brake pressure in the system.

Carson79 · Sep 30, 2012

But it doesn't work with the Elite or csw, the Wheel the op is wanting comparable pedals for

derekspeare · Sep 30, 2012

Emery Emond is good people and has a substantial following for his hydraulic pedals at iRacing. Emery was the man I selected from almost 100 applicants to test my first preproduction pedal system. It was with his testing that I was able to hammer out some issues with my own pedal "project". He's the man if you want to buy a race ready set.

I'd be happy to contribute a 12 bit board to Mr Latte's DIY pedal effort, and I support these community projects as a great way to exchange valuable insights others may use in their own projects. I've made this same offer to many on iRacing, and we're all better in the long run.

While I recommend a professionally produced hydraulic pedal system for a number of reasons, chief among them being the experience used to make them and the assurance time and money isn't wasted, I also recognize the DIY spirit and know some want to blaze their own trail.

That's an interesting looking pedal box, and a new one on the radar screen.

d

Mr Latte · Sep 30, 2012

Hi Derek, great to see you have an open minded approach knowing some people will want to do a d.i.y build. Your 12 bit board is the obvious choice I had in mind.

I'm not convinced yet though it is what I would do, so much of a grey area in what is involved regards the actual electronic/mechanism all working. I'd love a kit to be available for the main components which helps any enthusiast considering a d.i.y approach job a bit easier.

Is their an opportunity to consider doing a component package for d.i.y builds or is the knowledge/understanding and general skills more something that has to be acquired? It does look like a lot of the components are readily available to adapt branded racing pedals.

mrbasher · Sep 30, 2012

Carson79
But it doesn't work with the Elite or csw, the Wheel the op is wanting comparable pedals for

It works with all Fanatec wheels PWTS and newer... It doesn't work with the CSR Elite or Club sport PEDALS

I suggested it as an option so that the pedals could be used directly with the wheel and thus on consoles as well.

Mr Latte · Oct 1, 2012

mrbasher
It works with all Fanatec wheels PWTS and newer... It doesn't work with the CSR Elite or Club sport PEDALS I suggested it as an option so that the pedals could be used directly with the wheel and thus on consoles as well.

Your product covers a particular need and while I doubt people spending such money on pedals would have consoles as a priority or primary usage, certainly having the ability to install one set of pedals for all forms of playing is an interesting prospect.

Done some research and see Derek you have covered this whole pedal topic for sometime. I would really like to get an idea what price point you intend to ship at with your own set but my worries are that while you need to make a profit and ensure safe shipping the price difference may be for some worth considering going the d.i.y route. Those Tilton 600 series above however really are growing on me.

I have seen other pedals at @ $1500 and that is just far too much in my opinion...

Thanks for the input...

the_greeze · Oct 1, 2012

Mr Latte
Those Tilton 600 series above however really are growing on me.

I'm liking the look of those too... 👍 Might make some further enquiries

Edit: Damn you Latte! :lol:

Mr Latte · Oct 1, 2012

the_greeze
I'm liking the look of those too... 👍 Might make some further enquiries

Edit: Damn you Latte!

My Apologies....

Here is a simplistic guide I found.
Pedal Guide

Covers some of the components needed.

The image/set above seems to use:

Willwood Slave Cylinder

Compatible Master Cylinder

Pressure Transducer

DSD 12 Bit Controller

Additional items required seem to be fittings and hoses and a secure pedal box or mount.

Getting the components isn't the hard part it seems, getting it all working perhaps is.

Carson79 · Oct 1, 2012

I think you should go for it mate

ravey1981 · Oct 1, 2012

Great stuff! The willwood stuff is pretty high end gear, I was on the right track with the clutch slave cylinder idea obviously though

This could definitely be done using cheaper components from a standard road car. The basic layout seems to be get the slave cylinder to push against a resistance (elastomer, strong spring, block of rubber etc) and then measure the pressure in the system....

The mechanics of it is the hardest part.... Pots are readily available as are the servo arms and linkages used to connect the pedal to the pots. RC helicopter parts are ideal here and come in fancy anodised aluminium....

Mr Latte · Oct 1, 2012

Well it is too early for me to go with this at this stage if indeed I will.
I'm interested and enjoying the process however.

By all means link and show things you think are relative guys.

If going for top components as shown then it is easy to see the price start getting rather high indeed.

Edit
Tilton 600 Series PDF

ravey1981 · Oct 1, 2012

Although the tiltons are beautifully engineered they are way over the top for a sim setup... This would be more like it:

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motor...-balance-bars/obp-universal-kit-car-pedal-box

A wilwood slave cylinder is about $80

A DSD board is $50

Add in a bit for pots, brake line, pressure switch and various fixings and fittings $50 - $100

I reckon this could be done for $400- $450 (under £300) Which considering clubsports go for £250 here in the UK would not be a ridiculous price if it works well...

derekspeare · Oct 1, 2012

@Mr Latte - I've considered offering a kit, but it's not in the cards for reasons related to production commitments and to make sure the customer has the best ownership experience he can have by using an out-of-the-box hydraulic pedal set.

@All interested: The sensor in the photo is of the type which needs a standard analog input to function. The board Mr Latte kindly posted (on of mine

) has an integrated load cell amplifier. The sensor in the post won't operate on the amplified channel.

To use the amplified channel, and to receive the benefit of being able to adjust the user's relative maximum pressure, one needs either a load cell element (not for this application) or a pressure transducer with milivolt output. The sensor in the photo has a voltage output of 0 - ~5 volts.

If you want to read my thoughts on milivolt output transducers, please see this thread on iRacing:

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1845219.page#4182210

If someone wants to repost it here, I have no objections. Please don't edit the content if you do

d

NB: I'd like to add that the OBP box seems to be the best of its type and style. It's my understanding that there are some low dollar copies of the same, but the reports a number have indicated to me is that they are not up to snuff.

ravey1981 · Oct 1, 2012

Thanks for the info Derek, unfortunately I'm not part of iRacing so cant view the thread...if someone could repost that would be great!

From what I can tell a pressure sensor with milivolt output is quite a bit more expensive than the one pictured... I assume the analog sensor would work (in the same way as a pot) but there would be no way to adjust the braking effort required?

This is all very interesting stuff and I love learning/working out how things work

Mr Latte · Oct 2, 2012

The products shown are not necessarily the exact items, just trying to get a general breakdown of what is required. About the "pressure transducer with milivolt output" maybe someone can recommend one?

Additionally many pedals do not come with the master cylinders etc so this has to be taken into account also. Will be interesting to see later if others want to contribute or have an interest in this.

So far these !AP" are my favourite yet quite expensive.
I look forward with interest to see how these or something similar might compare to DSD's own pedals and taking into account prices as well.

mrbasher · Oct 2, 2012

It's not completely necessary to go with a millivolt output sensor, in fact it can decrease your actual resolution due to noise. Any noise from the sensor output is amplified as it's scaled up to a 5 volt range. This can be especially critical if the circuit amplifying the signal is not designed with the intention of filtering this noise at it's output as well as the circuit layout and design itself.

If the intention of using a millivolt output sensor is so that it can be adjusted via a dial or similar, the same thing can be accomplished using a sensor like the one you posted:

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

derekspeare · Oct 2, 2012

Filtering is a non issue - some camps make an issue from it, but the benefits of using a milivolt output sensor far outweigh any negligible noise you'd have.

If you use a milivolt output sensor (pressure transducer), you can adjust your own preferable maximum brake pressue and still have all 4096 steps of resolution. The same concept is found on Fanatec's Clubsport pedals.

If you use the sensor above, common on ebay and known to us from Sam Maxwell's efforts, you will not be able to use the entire channel's resolution. That means for those who prefer a less-than-max amount of of "leg" you will get less resolution to your brakes. While it's a great way to go, and is more economical, if you're going to spend on a component like this, why toss substantial benefits away to save a few quid.

The transducer I recommend for the job is referenced in the thread I posted here found at iracing. Have fun!

mrbasher · Oct 2, 2012

Derek,

Would you mind explaining the benefits of the millivolt sensor when compared to a non-millivolt sensor?

I wasn't aware of an "camps" on the issue of filtering noise... It's a part of basic EE principals. Almost all app notes related to reading an amplified analog signal suggest that the signal be filtered and buffered prior to digital conversion. The Clubsport pedals boards actually have small RC filters on all of their inputs. Is it required? Obviously not... It's just a sound suggestion and one that I personally have nothing to gain from.

Back to the millivolt sensor...
If a sensor has an output of say 0 to 50 millivolts, this means you need to amplify that signal by at least 100x to get the entire 5 volt range. Doing this amplifies the entire signal, including any noise. The noise doesn't necessarily come from the sensor itself but the wires, things around the sensor and wires and the board itself. Even minimal noise could potentially become a large issue depending on the environment and design.

Here's some info on resolution and how noise can affect it: http://electronicdesign.com/article...ree_noise_with_every_adc_while_supplies_last_

Back to the non-millivolt output sensor and the ability to adjust it's output...
The principals involved in allowing this sensor to be adjustable are quite similar to the millivolt sensor. An op-amp circuit is used to adjust the output of the sensor such that it fits the desired range.

In the end, either one is a fine choice I'm sure, as long as folks are aware of their limits and design methodologies.

Mr Latte · Oct 2, 2012

Derek great info thanks...
Reading your post from iracing but hey if it is your thread/post then I will leave it up to you to repost here if you want. I certainly have no issues and would like this thread to ultimately look at all options/possibilities and the pros and cons.

I do believe when people start seeing what is possible including the quality of your own pedals they will indeed start showing the CSPV2 as a little lacking. Then again for performance/price ratio they are great however is a growing market for something more substantial now forming? I certainly believe so, lets see what comments appear here and what others have to say...

When you have released details/price of your own I would think many people may just consider the "purchase option" and have no issues including a full warranty. Both have their own rewards depending on the person.

Building d.i.y Pedals?

Mr Latte

Spike125

nah, could be worse

Mr Latte

ravey1981

zedfonsie

Mr Latte

ravey1981

zedfonsie

Mr Latte

ravey1981

Cheeba

mrbasher

BasherBoards!

Carson79

derekspeare

Mr Latte

mrbasher

BasherBoards!

Mr Latte

the_greeze

Cookin' on gas!

Mr Latte

Carson79

ravey1981

Mr Latte

ravey1981

derekspeare

ravey1981

Mr Latte

mrbasher

BasherBoards!

derekspeare

mrbasher

BasherBoards!

Mr Latte

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