Building d.i.y Pedals?

  • Thread starter Mr Latte
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I feel like maybe I wasn't making myself entirely clear...

I was just trying to point out that both sensor types are actually adjustable. The main difference is that Derek's load cell amp will work with the millivolt sensor directly and someone would need to make their own, very similar design, for the non-millivolt sensor.

I hope that helps. I'll stay out of it, just wanted to add some insight. I've been contemplating making a set just like this for some time now. (Edit: just for me) Best of luck with your endeavors. :)

I'll leave you with some pretty decent info on pressure transducers: http://www.omega.com/techref/press-trans.html
 
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Omega is good. I like Measurement Specialties. My purpose in posting was only to outline what's at the disposal of any sim racer who wants to build his own hydraulic pedal set. I've built nearly a dozen prototypes over the past year or more, and like to boil things to the essence of what's practical. However, it's not my intention to go in other directions with more technical matters; an apology if this is what it seems.

For value/performance, the Clubsports have it. If you want the next level, hydraulic is the way to go (and I am working on something more advanced than that, too!). There are Emery's pedals out there or you can build your own. I think most prefer to "sign and drive", so that's the motive for mine. When they come out, they will be purposely designed for sim racing. The trick is to do it for not an arm and leg.
 
derekspeare
When they come out, they will be purposely designed for sim racing. The trick is to do it for not an arm and leg.
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This is the part Im interested in. So far everything Ive seen for hydraulic pedals, even doing them yourself, are way to expensive. I have a perfect pedal now and although its kinda pricey its still the cheapest hydraulic pedal option on the market by several hundred dollars. I would like to get a better setup for pedals but not at much more than about $400. Might be dreaming there but thats my limit I think on a set of pedals. Anything much more than that and Ill stick with what I have. They do work very well and to me the feel is pretty spot on. Wouldnt mind something a bit more racy though. :)
 
fatkrakr
This is the part Im interested in. So far everything Ive seen for hydraulic pedals, even doing them yourself, are way to expensive. I have a perfect pedal now and although its kinda pricey its still the cheapest hydraulic pedal option on the market by several hundred dollars. I would like to get a better setup for pedals but not at much more than about $400. Might be dreaming there but thats my limit I think on a set of pedals. Anything much more than that and Ill stick with what I have. They do work very well and to me the feel is pretty spot on. Wouldnt mind something a bit more racy though. :)
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Hi, of course this can become expensive as your talking about real race components here, no compromise and some specialist brands.

The OBP PR5 model I showed at the start of the thread was the best value I found during early research. At it's price a bit over £400 it is very good value. Many of the brands do not sell the pedals complete and indeed the price grows quickly.

Note from their webpage:
The 3 Pedal Tilton equivalent is £600 + VAT for the base unit (NO Master Cylinders, Bias Bar, Reservoirs etc.) with the accelerator lever, for the AP equivalent the price starts at £700 + VAT.

However to give another comparison a single perfect pedal ships internationally at $300 for that alone. So the PR5 package is very well priced considering what it comes with. A set of CST F1 style pedals with the good options is IIRC approx £750+ without hydraulics.

I await to see what value DSD can come up with, the quality will be assured and expected but for me his release is a key factor in my direction/decision.
 
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Maybe this can help you if you don't want Starting from scratch!

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I reactivated my iRacing account so i could get a look at the Emery pedals....

I now know what the only thing left for me is a set of decent pedals and the only reason I'm holding off is to see what DSD is going to be releasing.

ETA pretty please.......
 
ive built 2 sets of pedals now from scratch,both hydraulic(using pneumatic cylinders filled with oil)

the cost was around £450+ just in parts..they are easy enough to make,for me anyways but the cost soon adds up when you start building..things you forget like fixing and brake lines etc.

my next one im doing will be full hydraulic using a master and brake caliper....borrowed from a pit bike just to see what the feel is like.
 
davidgrunill
ive built 2 sets of pedals now from scratch,both hydraulic(using pneumatic cylinders filled with oil)

the cost was around £450+ just in parts..they are easy enough to make,for me anyways but the cost soon adds up when you start building..things you forget like fixing and brake lines etc.

my next one im doing will be full hydraulic using a master and brake caliper....borrowed from a pit bike just to see what the feel is like.
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I would greatly appreciate you posting some pics if you can or have any.
Feel free to discuss in more detail components you recommend or have used.

While many including myself wait to see what DSD comes up with I wonder if others think like I do in achieving a certain niceness regards building a customised set. Also using various real world motor-sport components/products.

My concerns would be reliability and the work involved in not so much the build but configuration and tweaking. What is your opinion and experience?
 
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left888
I believe Derek has said the same thing about ten times now. Don't quote me for certain because I can't speak for Derek.
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Yeah was more joking.. Read a lot recently from iRacing forums too about his and other hydraulic setups. Impressive work...
 
I've been thinking about this as well. My solution is less complicated, I think, for a DIY hydraulic brake. I'm not sure if it's going to work.

Instead of working with a pressure transducer, I was thinking of getting a caliper and put the load cell in the caliper (protecting the load cell with foam while it is in the caliper).

I don't know yet if it is allowed to just put a load cell in a caliper (load cell instead of disk brake and the disk brake pads.
Does one also need a master and slave cilinder for this construction, or is a master cilinder enough?
 
kikie
I've been thinking about this as well. My solution is less complicated, I think, for a DIY hydraulic brake. I'm not sure if it's going to work.

Instead of working with a pressure transducer, I was thinking of getting a caliper and put the load cell in the caliper (protecting the load cell with foam while it is in the caliper).

I don't know yet if it is allowed to just put a load cell in a caliper (load cell instead of disk brake and the disk brake pads.
Does one also need a master and slave cilinder for this construction, or is a master cilinder enough?
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You would have a setup of half a car on your rig.
Pressure sensor is easier ;)
Easiest solution: Brake cylinders, expansion tank with hydraulic fluid and pressure sensor.
Simple setup without a brake booster, like a real car.
Just calibrate the whole thing right and you've got a race brake.

Ment brake cylinder"s"
 
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im actually using a master cylinder and brake caliper from a quad motorbike,i wasnt sure at first but its been working flawless now.
im using a 1000psi transducer and seeing around 1200 steps so really didnt need such a large psi rating as the pedal is generating around 250-280 psi so a 300-500 one would have worked just as well.

no leaks at all,no mess and the pedal moves around 10-15mm at most but feels so precise it is very easy to drag brake around corners.


IMAG0857.jpg
 
Spike, You would still need a slave cylinder or similar in there to give the system some movement. With you're setup the pedal would be completely solid.

kikies idea would work although remember you are not looking squeee the load cell, rather you must deflect or bend it. By fixing one end of the load cell and using a floating caliper this could be achieved... Although as has been pointed out, if you are going to all this trouble, a pressure transducer is the best method.

Incidentally, I have shelved my plans to build a hydraulic pedal for now. After getting hold of an ap elextrix load cell mod for my g27 pedals I feel my brake system is good enough for now and I'll spend my money improving other areas of my setup before revisiting the brakes.... It's still something for the future though
 
Is it possible to drill a hole in a load cell without damaging it (to screw one end solid onto something)

Let's say for argument's sake, that I'm still interested (after reading pilmat's thread I'm less interested) in making a hydraulic brake.

The easiets way, what do I need?

1) load cell amplifier from leo.
2) master brake cilinder and slave cilinder
3) pressure transducer (but which one and will it work with Leo's amplifier?)
4) brake caliper
5) brake hose
6) brake fluid

Is that it?


How do I connect things?

1) brake pedal
2) master brake cilinder
3) transducer connected to the amplifier but to which brake cilinder, master or slave?
4) slave brake cilinder
5) hose and the caliper

In this order?
 
davidgrunill
im actually using a master cylinder and brake caliper from a quad motorbike,i wasnt sure at first but its been working flawless now.
im using a 1000psi transducer and seeing around 1200 steps so really didnt need such a large psi rating as the pedal is generating around 250-280 psi so a 300-500 one would have worked just as well.

no leaks at all,no mess and the pedal moves around 10-15mm at most but feels so precise it is very easy to drag brake around corners.


IMAG0857.jpg
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👍
It would be nice to see some more picture's of your custom breaks. Was it expensive or difficult? Could anyone have a go at this kind of DIY job, or would you need specialist skills/tools?
 
zedfonsie
Emery doesn't have a gtplanet, he is an Iracer. He is very well known to build the best hydraulic pedals, here are some pictures.
eefabpedals6.jpg
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These are some really nice pedals from Emery!! 👍 on the craftsmanship.

I have a couple of observations (NOT critiques!):
  • The use of twin brake cylinders for sim use is not necessary, in fact it it only makes things complicated for nothing. The twins are for front/rear circuit separation and to add a brake bias mechanism, neither do anything in sims.
  • The hydraulic clutch is an unnecessary complexity, as there is no way to adjust the "grab point" in the sim. But if this could be adjusted, the slave ram could be loaded (elastomers/springs) to get the feel just right. This one is a ways away I think...
  • The hydraulic brake is also a bit redundant. All that is happening here is that the hydraulics are used to compress the springs (here elastomers are used). The pressure transducer then tells the sim what the equivalent hydraulic pressure is to balance that spring. Of course the tuning is almost infinite as you can use different size master cylinders and elastomers to get the pedal to behave the way you want, especially non-linearly, but is this not just a spring/position sensing system in the end?

I guess I'll just have to buy/build a hydraulic system so that I can see for myself. But I still am sceptical of the benefits. The main thing would be as Derek says, to get full resolution (4000 steps is a lot :)) for better modulation. Looks like I'll be ordering some masters, slaves, sensors and lines when I get back to work :) And Derek or Mr.Basher, I'll need some help with getting the sensor wired!
 
Good luck in getting help from Mr. Derek. I asked him to help me with a few simple things and the only thing he could say was; "do your homework". :P

Besides that, he is a nice and friendly person. 👍
 
You have to remember Derek is in business and has a set of pedals in development. It would be kind of cheeky to ask him for help to build a set of your own. Rather than buy his when released lol
 
Carson79
You have to remember Derek is in business and has a set of pedals in development. It would be kind of cheeky to ask him for help to build a set of your own. Rather than buy his when released lol
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Im not so sure thats the reason. I think it has more to do with being overrun with request. I could see his email being blown up by people wanting to know how to wire all the different things his boards are capable of doing. Not to mention if someone uses his advice and wire something wrong and fry the board they would be screaming for a replacement because "I followed your instructions".
 
fatkrakr
Im not so sure thats the reason. I think it has more to do with being overrun with request. I could see his email being blown up by people wanting to know how to wire all the different things his boards are capable of doing. Not to mention if someone uses his advice and wire something wrong and fry the board they would be screaming for a replacement because "I followed your instructions".
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Very good point
 
Where does the pressure sensor go? Between the master brake cilinder and the slave brake cilinder of after the slave brake cilinder?
 
On the point of DIY Support - each man must do his homework. I receive many requests daily for custom work and personalized consulting for many types of projects. I can't do it for a number of reasons, and ultimately expect that for DIY projects folks muster the DIY spirit and do it themselves .

My circuit boards are a DIY component. I enjoy offering them and furthering the goals of the DIY man. What I have published to my site by way of technical information is what's needed to integrate my various components into one's project. After that, the creator of that project must know what's in order on his end.

On the point of dual master cylinders - I can assure all that it's the correct way. Emery was a former professional SCCA Racer and has dozens of his pedals in service with folks who use racing sims as a professional training tool. Emery was the man who even tested my first prototype hydraulic set. I trust what he does and know it's not whimsical or capricious.

Remember, that when you build a hundred or a thousand or several thousand of a particular thing and receive money from people to do it, you generally find the best and most efficient means to do it in order to accomplish the task best for which that thing was intended.

d

NB - as an aside on the braking methodology: This debate has been hammered many times at iRacing. The overwhelming consensus - and even among the best sim racers in the world - is that pressure based braking is far, far superior to pot braking. (us humans have better muscle memory for force and pressure than for position).

Moreover, why hydraulic braking is considered to be the pinnacle of sim racing brakes is for one very specific reason in addition to being pressure based: It's the actual feeling of fluid moving through the hydraulic system which gives the user the best tactile sensations for brake pedal modulation in order to maintain the most aggressive means possible for threshold braking - all that means faster lap times.

The argument is about two years too late :)
 
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Just to point out the obvious, if hydraulic is used on real race cars, then it should be good enough for sim racers or your common fun racer looking a superb man-toy for his racing rig...

Looking at the other current thread discussing a similar topic.
I question why try emulating something with a more complicated or different process when "hydraulic" is already proven and can be used? Of course having something of equal feel/performance but cheaper would be a nice option but currently their is none at a much more affordable price-point, is their?

Specialist pedals can easily go beyond £1000 / $1000 which can only be assumed desirable/suitable for a true racer or elitist type sim racer. So to me hydraulic seem to be a good option/direction to consider. I would love to see more people offer a service in building specialised hydraulic sim pedals.

Still though I think brands like Fanatec are missing out on professional type approx £500-£600 set of pedals. Lets see what 2013 brings...
 
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