GT7 vs GT6 architecture changes

tanveerahmed2k8

tanveerahmed2k8

92
the1thatownedyou
I dont understand one thing, I know kaz said the ps3 cell was a good CPU, but how will the ps4 jaguar APU compare? will physics not improve because of its lower clock speeds or something?

I know that the ps4 has a lot more RAM this will open up windows for things like livery editor which isnt current possible due to the ps3's limited RAM and better AI, environments etc?

what do you think will happen?
 
tanveerahmed2k8
I dont understand one thing, I know kaz said the ps3 cell was a good CPU, but how will the ps4 jaguar APU compare? will physics not improve because of its lower clock speeds or something?

I know that the ps4 has a lot more RAM this will open up windows for things like livery editor which isnt current possible due to the ps3's limited RAM and better AI, environments etc?

what do you think will happen?
Click to expand...

The CPU for the PS4 is approx 10 times faster than the PS3 and it has 32 times more ram, and its graphics card is also vastly superior. Imagine AI that are 16 times more complex, doubling he accuracy of the graphics, and a vastly more accurate physics engine. As well as support for 32 player games.
 
FYI clock speed does not mean anything, architecture is what makes the difference. And the ps3's processor is ancient in comparison to the ps4's, processors get faster and more efficient at calculations every year. So although the ps3's cell processor was brilliant at release, it is almost a relic in the computer world. The physics will probably improve stepping up to the ps4, but they arent going to change much, they will feel that they are pretty realistic now (and I do, apart from tyre model). The biggest gain from new hardware is more realistic graphics (particles, shading, smoothing, lighting ect), the ability to have more sound effects at the same time, and the ability to have more cars on track and more advanced crash modeling & physics.

I think you need to read up on computer hardware basics somewhat.
 
Raggi Boy
FYI clock speed does not mean anything, architecture is what makes the difference. And the ps3's processor is ancient in comparison to the ps4's, processors get faster and more efficient at calculations every year. So although the ps3's cell processor was brilliant at release, it is almost a relic in the computer world. The physics will probably improve stepping up to the ps4, but they arent going to change much, they will feel that they are pretty realistic now (and I do, apart from tyre model). The biggest gain from new hardware is more realistic graphics (particles, shading, smoothing, lighting ect), the ability to have more sound effects at the same time, and the ability to have more cars on track and more advanced crash modeling & physics.

I think you need to read up on computer hardware basics somewhat.
Click to expand...

The clock does matter, the formula for processing power is, Processing power = clock * cores * FLOPs / cycle


GPU comparison-

"The PS4 is listed as having a peak performance of 1.84 TFLOPS"

ohh.... look what I found

PS3- "1.8 T-FLOPS floating point performance"
 
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The PS4 will supposedly have a unified memory architecture, too, as I hoped it would (AMD's been touting "HSA" for some time now, but without a unified memory structure and addressing etc., it's heavily hamstrung). That basically cuts bandwidth problems in half and makes it so much easier to manage data shared by the CPU and GPU.

Basically, the GPU will no-longer simply be a graphics accelerator, but a bona fide "general use" co-processor, and it will very likely be comparatively simple to leverage that functionality through code. Arguably, the power and some of the functionality of the Cell's SPEs will effectively be retained, but most of the "difficulty" in exploiting it removed, by this "unified" development approach as a result.

Looking at what developers are achieving now they have finally got a handle on the complex nature of parallelised and compartmentalised / threaded games (as evidenced by the latest PS3 games), moving to the distinctly heterogeneous world of AMD's near-future vision of its APUs should result in some very cool possibilities.

And people said Sony were daft to go the heterogeneous route with the Cell; it's just given developers the kick they needed to make the changes that were going to have to happen sooner or later, and we're better off for it in the long run. :dopey:
 
Are we really going to start talking about GT7 already? All the details of GT6 haven't even been released, let alone the game hitting shelves... :lol:
 
HarVee
The PS4 does indeed have exactly 32 times the amount of RAM than the PS3. 256 x 32 = 8192.
Click to expand...

Also we don't yet know the Clock on the new CPU but it really is approximately 10 times more powerful as it has 8 cores (8 times more powerful already in that one variable). so lets say there is a clock increase, or an increased amount of values calculated per cycle. I said Approx 10x , because we don't know the exact specs of the PS4 CPU, except that it has 8 cores and Moores Law suggest the system will have about 12 times more processing.

So we average out what we know 8 cores (x8 the current specs(assuming that te clock and the cycles are the same or similar)) and moores law that suggest it will be 12x faster

(8+12) / 2 = 10x more processing power. Yay my CPU number is also about right.
 
sk8er913
The CPU for the PS4 is approx 10 times faster than the PS3 and it has 32 times more ram, and its graphics card is also vastly superior. Imagine AI that are 16 times more complex, doubling he accuracy of the graphics, and a vastly more accurate physics engine. As well as support for 32 player games.
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Each of those is possible, but we have to remember that it really depends on the scale of each aspect. If they are going to increase to 32, they'll have less wiggle room for solid Full HD 1080p/60fps and graphics intensity (lighting, AA, particle effects, etc.), as well as A.I or physics calculations.
 
daus26
Each of those is possible, but we have to remember that it really depends on the scale of each aspect. If they are going to increase to 32, they'll have less wiggle room for solid Full HD 1080p/60fps and graphics intensity (lighting, AA, particle effects, etc.), as well as A.I or physics calculations.
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Ehh, doubling the cars shouldn't cause much of an issue even with twice or quadruple resource intensive AI.
 
HarVee
The PS4 does indeed have exactly 32 times the amount of RAM than the PS3. 256 x 32 = 8192.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. The PS3 has 256 (system) + 256 (video). The PS4 has 8192 for both combined, so it's 16 times as much.

What also has been improved by the factor of exactly 16 is the internal bus-speed.
 
sk8er913
Also we don't yet know the Clock on the new CPU but it really is approximately 10 times more powerful as it has 8 cores.
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Its 1.6GHz v PS3 3.2GHz.

1080@60 is still going to be a struggle.

1080@30 or 900@60 or 30 will be common this gen with PS4.

But Xbone will be lagging behind that.
Eg. If a game is 1080p on PS4 it will be 900p or 1080p and lower quality textures on Xbone.
 
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Physics is more about the code not The cpu power! Take lfs for example, it undoubtetly has the best physics for a sim but it plays on a hardware older than PS3!
It's not like PD has the perfect physics code but they can't implement it due to limited cpu power!
 
HarVee
The PS4 does indeed have exactly 32 times the amount of RAM than the PS3. 256 x 32 = 8192.
Click to expand...
It has 512MB of RAM. Even if you only take the XMR part it wouldn't work, because the CPU never gets to allocate all of the GDDR5 memory.
 
tanveerahmed2k8
I dont understand one thing, I know kaz said the ps3 cell was a good CPU, but how will the ps4 jaguar APU compare? will physics not improve because of its lower clock speeds or something?

I know that the ps4 has a lot more RAM this will open up windows for things like livery editor which isnt current possible due to the ps3's limited RAM and better AI, environments etc?

what do you think will happen?
Click to expand...

It will open up a wealth of possibilities and maybe even get rid of the flat people in the crowd. :dunce:
 
phil_75
Its 1.6GHz v PS3 3.2GHz.

1080@60 is still going to be a struggle.

1080@30 or 900@60 or 30 will be common this gen with PS4.

But Xbone will be lagging behind that.
Eg. If a game is 1080p on PS4 it will be 900p or 1080p and lower quality textures on Xbone.
Click to expand...

Architecture is more important than clock speed. A lower clock speed i5 with only four cores can keep pace with the higher clock speed eight core AMD FX 8350.
 
NOSWaster
Architecture is more important than clock speed. A lower clock speed i5 with only four cores can keep pace with the higher clock speed eight core AMD FX 8350.
Click to expand...

They're both important. You can have the "best" "architecture" in the world (whatever that means), but if its clock speed is zero, it's pointless. Tweaking clock speeds allows for roughly linear scaling of performance, at least until the pipes become saturated (I/O, memory etc.) and discounting thermal and voltage issues.

What you're not factoring in is the performance bias, in "traditional" desktop machines, for serial ("single-threaded") computation. This is largely an inertia issue, since it takes time for the established code development base to change gear, but also some things just don't warrant the complication.

Games built for specific hardware, though, can be made to leverage that hardware to the extreme - this means, even discounting the comparative lack of "overhead" and layered abstraction (drivers etc.) on the consoles vs. PC, the "Jaguars" in the next gen consoles will seem far superior to the desktop equivalents (although we'll have to wait for the unified memory in Kaveri for a more direct comparison, not that software will be exploiting that any time soon, either.)
 
I was comparing PC part to PC part. While both clock speed and architecture are equally important, all the clock speed in the world won't save a garbage architecture. I've known for a while that console games can be a bit more stable and exploit the hardware more because the developers only need to optimize their code for that hardware (in the case of console exclusive games like GT).

I was also trying to make a point that Jaguar's lower clock speed is more than compensated for by its superior architecture to the cell.
 
NOSWaster
I was comparing PC part to PC part. While both clock speed and architecture are equally important, all the clock speed in the world won't save a garbage architecture. I've known for a while that console games can be a bit more stable and exploit the hardware more because the developers only need to optimize their code for that hardware (in the case of console exclusive games like GT).

I was also trying to make a point that Jaguar's lower clock speed is more than compensated for by its superior architecture to the cell.
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It's not even about "optimisation" as such, simply that taking advantage of the features of modern hardware isn't necessary for most "everyday" ("consumer") programs - ergo, most everyday programming isn't geared up for that hardware, or particular style of programming, either.

In fairness, you can't talk about "superior" or "inferior" architecture, because it depends on intended usage. For the current, sluggish world of desktop computing, single-threaded simplistic programming works best on the kind of hardware that people tend to consider best (simply because it works best in that arena). Other areas, such as simulation, graphics rendering, AI algorithms low-power etc. would have different optimal hardware.

For games, something like Kaveri should be better than anything Intel makes (potentially), clock-for-clock, bus-for-bus etc. - it's just that games weren't really made that way. Thanks partly to the Cell, and the rise of GPGPU - as well as AMD's APUs and all the mobile stuff - they are now starting to be, at least on consoles.
 
phil_75
But Xbone will be lagging behind that.
Eg. If a game is 1080p on PS4 it will be 900p or 1080p and lower quality textures on Xbone.
Click to expand...

GT7 is coming to xbox?
08.gif


Man, consolewarz on the first page! smh
 
sk8er913
Ehh, doubling the cars shouldn't cause much of an issue even with twice or quadruple resource intensive AI.
Click to expand...

Well, the problem I was more referring to was graphical quality and full HD/60fps. If any of that doesn't matter, we could add all the A.I.s we want.

Also note that Forza 5 on that Xbox One is barely struggling to run Full 1080p/60fps with the graphics they're running, so they have ditched both night racing and weather in order to run that. On top of that, I doubt they're going to run 32 A.I. I know the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One , but I don't think it's so much more powerful that it can run Full HD/60fps/32 A.I./Weather/Night racing while outperforming the graphics of Forza 5.
 
daus26
Also note that Forza 5 on that Xbox One is barely struggling to run Full 1080p/60fps with the graphics they're running, so they have ditched both night racing and weather in order to run that
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I haven't seen anything to suggest that night and weather are not in FM5 because of performance issues.

Source?
 
Imari
I haven't seen anything to suggest that night and weather are not in FM5 because of performance issues.

Source?
Click to expand...

They said on the reveal of the FM5 that the game won't have night races.

If it had, boy, that beautiful rendered R18 e-tron would be smiling at me.
 
wowbaggerBR
They said on the reveal of the FM5 that the game won't have night races.

If it had, boy, that beautiful rendered R18 e-tron would be smiling at me.
Click to expand...

He's asking for a source for their absence being explained via performance issues, not whether or not they're there in general.
 
Imari
I haven't seen anything to suggest that night and weather are not in FM5 because of performance issues.

Source?
Click to expand...
I can't find the more recent, straight-up answer by Dan about that, but performance issues is the basic reason why they haven't implemented it.

FM4
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-23-under-the-hood-of-forza-4-interview?page=2
Eurogamer: Gran Turismo has weather effects and night racing. Why doesn't Forza 4? Have you explored the possibility?

Dan Greenawalt: Every version we explore night and weather. We whittle down thousands of ideas, and we have these autonomous teams. We hire specialists. We build the game like an onion. At its core is a drop-dead amazing simulation engine. But we always assume we're wrong, and then find the best way to make it better. It's that commitment that makes me confident we have the strongest simulation, because we build partnerships other companies just can't, and we have a commitment to getting it right at our core.

We then build assists and fun gameplay and things on top of it without ever sacrificing that. Well, part of that is a solid 60 frames per second. And I mean solid. When you start doing multiple projected shadows off of the front of the car... we have 16 players, so 16 cars times two, so 32 projected shadows. That is a very graphically intense thing.

Now, that's totally possible on the Xbox 360, but it means the specialists we have in graphics would need to work on that problem, and it would be a hard problem. The hard problem we chose to take on with our graphics this version was Image Based Lighting, and working with Hollywood. Every version, we look at this long list of features we would do, and they are divided into these different autonomous groups that have the specialists that could actually do it. We just can't take a network developer and say, hey, why don't you do a new particle system. It's not that they're smart guys, but we hired them because they are so good at delivering network code.

Graphically, doing huge particle effects, we would have to have that group that was developing IBL, and that took a long time for us to get it right. We had to implement a whole new way of thinking through the partnership with Hollywood. We'd have to have them working on that from the ground up. So that's the type of thing where we could do it. We could do it on this hardware. But it didn't prioritise higher than IBL, because the IBL and the way the game looks now is stunning, and it's universal. It helps everybody, no matter what type of player you are, having a beautiful looking game that runs at 60 frames per second is awesome.

The things I've read on forums, people saying, well, I wish they didn't do this feature - first, that shows a lack of respect for the people who are going to love that feature, which is fine. I don't expect gamers to respect people the way I do. But, the assumption in that statement is, we have 350 people, why don't you just move them all on to this other thing I want?

It's like, I can't move artists onto it. That's not going to help. I can't move networking devs. I can't move my physics developers. I can't move my AI developers. To hire the best in the industry takes years. Years. To hire the type of guys we get, you have to take people from Hollywood and other game companies. It's the only way you get senior talent. So you can't just decide, we want to do more, let's just staff up.
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FM5
http://forums.theonlineracingassociation.com/t10344p220-official-forza-motorsport-5-thread#225714
Night and Weather:
"We are not supporting night, we do have daytime running lights." "We're not getting into weather effects either ..."
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And then, this is what he said about it when talking about FM5. Like I said before, there was an article where he shortly explained why FM5 doesn't have those features, I just can't find it.


It's honorable the way he says it though and his reason behind not having those features. They're not doing it so that they can be able to keep the entire game at the same level, basically.
 

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