TCV4 Judging...

Rotary Junkie

Premium
9,810
United States
Canton, MI
RJs_RX-7
Post your judging results in this thread.


Criteria

Comfort
: 0-25, 25 being best. By comfort I don't mean ride quality, I mean the car is easy to drive fast, and doesn't make you work hard to keep it in check at the limit.

Cornering attitude: 0-25. Does it understeer excessively? Dock points. Oversteer excessively? Dock points. Does it do both? Kill it.

Cornering prowess: 0-25. Basically, how fast it can go through the twisty bits.

Power-to-capability: 0-15. Is it too much for the chassis tuning? Can it take more? Or is it right around where you, the judge, feel it should be?

Perceived possible improvement: 0-10. How much quicker do you feel the car can be made? Lower = more improvement possible, higher = the tune is closer to "right". Base it not only off cornering but the gearbox's tuning as well (can the car be kept more or less in the power band at all times? Is acceleration well balanced with where the car tops out? etc)




Now then... Total it up, and there's the score. But list the individual scores as well.

RE: TRACK SELECTION... The track you use should be somewhere you're familiar with that provides a somewhat unbiased gauge of a vehicle's performance (IE not somewhere that's all high speed corners, and not somewhere that's all low speed).



Thanks to EA11R and Vince247, the entry lists:

N3

The Grey Ghost (Mazda RX-7 GT-Limited (FC, J) 1985) by Rotary Junkie
“RVV N3 CSL” (BMW M3 CSL ’02) by VTiRoj
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '00 by AdamGP
Suzuki Swift Concept S-2 by =drifting24/7=

FWD

Renault Megane 2.0 IDE ’00 by Adamgp
'76 VW Golf I GTI-R FWD class by shoman
AT Holden Tigra '99 by Paulie
Renault Megane R230R by Camryfan
Acura RSX TS-R ’04 by Rotary Junkie
Honda Civic Type R (EP) ’04 by VTiRoj
Honda CR-X del Sol SiR '92 by Kurei
Spoon Civic Type R '00 (EK9) by drifting 24/7
Mitsubishi FTO GP-RS'99 by Leonidae
RENAULT MEGANE SPORT '03 by Mafia_boy

AWD

Evo IV - Kurei
Stagea - VtiRoj
RUF CTR2 - Adamgp
3000 GT RS - Leonidae
Audi TT 3.2 - Shoman
Golf IV R32 - Bergauk
Subaru Impreza 22B-STi - NURO
Subaru Impreza WRX STi - =Drifting24/7=

RWD

Toyota Supra RZ ’97 by VTiRoj
Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33) '03 by Mcsqueegy
Nissan 300ZX 2-Seater '98 by Nuro
Mister Black (MR2) by Leonidae
AT Chevrolet Corvette GS.S '96 by Paulie
Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R '00 by Adamgp
Red Devil (Fairlady 280 Z-L '78) by Vince247
Purple Devil Z (Nissan 240ZG (HS30) '71) Rotary Junkie
Mazda RX-8 Type S (SE3P) by drifting 24/7
Mazda RX-8 Turbosport by Camryfan
TRD HILUX SPEC M (Based on Toyota Tacoma) by Mafia_boy
Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83 by Bergauk
Ford Mustang GT "FR500" by shoman
 
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N3 Class

I judged the cars all with 5 laps around GVS, then until T3 at the 'Ring (That's about 1/3 around). The Suzuki always understeered, the Vette was a more more entertaining at the 'Ring than GVS, while the RX-7 seemed too soft at GVS it felt slightly too hard (still graceful, though) at the 'Ring, and the M3 was quite electirc in response and balanced in turning everywhere it went.

untitled-5.jpg


So then, the Swift is horrendous, the Corvette sedated, the RX-7 amazing, and the M3 exhilrating. The Swift is a chore and, while the Corvette has potential, it’s not really my thing. I like the RX-7’s excellent handling, but the drivetrain seems a bit off. The M3, meanwhile, is the trickiest car to drive here, and the quickest, and the most rewarding.

I should probably point out that I don’t refer to the categories by their exact names, per se, because I don’t like the names chosen. The only thing which may muddle understanding would be my use of the word “efficiency” as that final, 10-point category. Other than that, I believe it’s quite natural and lucid. Probably.

Suzuki Swift: 32 The power is well-suited to the traction, and the gear ratios are quite logical, progressive and finally running out of thrust with abouth 2000 rpm left – good for drafting. The balance of the car was absolutely dreadful; understeer to infinity, but with the illusion of impending oversteer. The camber is too high for the suspension’s stiffness, so there’s lots of grip during aggressive corner entry, then none, then a little bit, et cetera. Due to this handling problem, the cornering speed itself is in the basement; the only way to get anywhere near the apex is to enter the corner at around… 12. If one goes mad and uses the apparently gratuitous throttle steer, the car does technically move well, but in that unfulfilling manner of FF drift. But, even though it never went right, it never unintentionally plowed into a wall, so the controllability rating is decent-ish. This car is a chore to drive, surely the loser here.

Chevrolet Corvette: 69 The gear ratios on this car are WAY too high. Second gear is good for 94 mph, while fifth and sixth gears alike are worth 201 mph. This flaw completely changes the car from what it should be –scary- into a nearly boring car. There is fairly little thrust and very much power, so the efficiency score is definitively low. The car’s cornering grip is either high mid-range or low top-range, but that’s fairly impressive for an unwinged Corvette. Oddly, those two qualities mean it has a great Power per Grip rating, and it does show in driving. The balance is one of total understeer, but smooth, stable understeer. If driven and yanked about like a madman, the car can settle into a disproportionately low state of oversteer, before eagerly straightening once more. The car is suprisingly easy to use, if only as a result of stupid gearing and safe handling. Though it almost takes talent to direct it towards walls, it takes skill and anger to do something interesting while cornering, so the score isn’t perfect. Lower the power and the ratios (and fix them too, as the graph looks a bit awkward), and this will turn from a soft and easy cruiser into a foolproof low-power racer.

Mazda RX-7: 84 The gear ratios felt a bit too low for me, but I used a 0-miler from a convenient save, which means I have impossibly high power (270 or so), so the gearing is probably right. The modifications themselves actually seemed odd here, as it’s an expensive car with a budgety drivetrain, and I’d prefer a bit more power even than I had; it’s rather slow. The cornering, though, amazes me completely. This car has the calmest omnipresent oversteer I have ever experienced in Gran Turismo 4. It is a total delight to drive around corners. Technically, there is way too much oversteer, but the slow-motion way it all occurs means that anyone can control it, and anyone skilled can do wonderful, wonderful things with it. Huge drifts don’t really happen, the car isn’t epic. What the car is, is an absolute joy. It feels like you expect a classic British roadster should feel; the power is pretty low, the grip as well, and the suspension feels soft (I think that’s a magic trick…), but the balance is superb, and the auto just gobbles up corners in a way unlike drift or grip. This is the car with by far the most refined handling here, or anywhere else, for that matter.

BMW M3: 94 I’ve seen this trick before; the car tops out practically on the rev limiter, but not quite hitting it. It’s quite nifty, and the other five gears are all reasonably perfect as well. Both power and grip come in boatfuls here, and happen to be beautifully balanced. The grip is massive and progressive; That is all. The ease of use is essentially a more rapid version of the most forgiving conceivable car. The balance is ideal: The car grips through turns without feeling forced, or power-over can be had, or lift-over can be had (Both can probably be avoided too, but why would you?). Any maneuver, sideways or straight, will be happily and dutifully fulfilled. I get the sense that this is the most that can be done on N3s. It feels like a racecar, with oversteer and a good bit of controllability. It is just such fun to use, it’s like the most controllable cars, but quicker and more versatile.
 
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N3 Class


Suzuki CONCEPT S-2 16
Comfort: 7
Cornering Attitude: 2
Cornering Prowess: 4
Power to Capability: 3
Percieved Improvement: 0
400m: 15.263
1000m: 26.439
Top: 264.12 kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'20.574

Chevrolet Corvette Z06 47
Comfort: 13
Cornering Attitude: 13
Cornering Prowess: 13
Power to Capability: 7
Percieved Improvement: 1
400m: 13.155
1000m: 22.594
Top: 329.41 kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'10.315

Mazda RX-7 GT Limited 67
Comfort: 19
Cornering Attitude: 20
Cornering Prowess: 18
Power ot Capability: 12
Percieved Improvement: 8
400m: 14.665
1000m: 25.995
Top: 246.55 kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'17.726

BMW M3 CSL 87
Comfort: 20
Cornering Attitude: 23
Cornering Prowess: 21
Power to Capability: 14
Percieved Improvement: 9
400m: 14.460
1000m: 22.034
Top: 296.84 kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'05.383

Basicly I agree with EA11R on all points. The Suzuki is in need of major improvement, it doesn't handle at all well and the gears are not done right. The Corvette's gears are not good and she's also all over the place. The RX-7 is good overall, but it is heading in the direction of a drift car, so it lost points fot that, because its about road cars. The M3 is very well put together and I cant think of what to improve, if anything, except putting sport tyres on!
 
FWD

Volkswagen Golf GTI-R '76
Comfort: 19
Cornering Attack: 18
Cornering Prowess: 22
Power to Capability: 11
Perceived Improvement: 7
400m: 16.479
1000m: 27.448
Top: 252.90kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'17.542
Total: 77

Renault Megane 2.0 IDE '00
Comfort: 17
Cornering Attack: 14
Cornering Prowess: 16
Power to Capability: 12
Perceived Improvement: 4
400m: 14.971
1000m: 25.788
Top: 262.94kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'17.067
Total: 63

Opel {AT Holden} Tigra 1.6i '99
Comfort: 22
Cornering Attack: 23
Cornering Prowess: 20
Power to Capability: 15
Perceived Improvement: 8
400m: 15.856
1000m: 27.058
Top: 241.09kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'13.661
Total: 88

Renault Megane {R230R} '03
Comfort: 19
Cornering Attack: 17
Cornering Prowess: 18
Power to Capability: 8
Perceived Improvement: 3
400m: 15.606
1000m: 27.389
Top: 225.12kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'16.654
Total: 65

Acura RSX {TSR} Type-S '04
Comfort: 22
Cornering Attack: 23
Cornering Prowess: 21
Power to Capability: 15
Perceived Improvement: 8
400m: 14.614
1000m: 24.865
Top: 272.77kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'08.095
Total: 89

Honda Civic Type-R (EP) '04
Comfort: 19
Cornering Attack: 18
Cornering Prowess: 21
Power to Capability: 13
Perceived Improvement: 6
400m: 14.777
1000m: 24.710
Top: 271.01kph
G.V.S.Best: 2'07.386
Total: 82

Honda CR-X del sol SiR '92
Comfort: 13
Cornering Attack: 14
Cornering Prowess: 12
Power to Capability: 10
Perceived Improvement: 2
400m: 15.763
1000m: 26.990
Top: 264.97kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'17.309
Total: 51

Spoon Civic Type-R '00
Comfort: 16
Cornering Attack: 14
Cornering Prowess: 17
Power to Capability: 12
Perceived Improvement: 3
400m: 15.379
1000m: 26.475
Top: 258.59kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'12.924
Total: 62

Mitsubishi FTO {GP-RS} GP Version-R '99
Comfort: 23
Cornering Attack: 24
Cornering Prowess: 25
Power to Capability: 15
Perceived Improvement: 9
400m: 14.736
1000m: 25.156
Top: 271.04kph
G.V.S. Best: 2'08.644
Total: 96

Renault Megane {Sport} '03
Comfort: 22
Cornering Attack: 23
Cornering Prowess: 22
Power to Capability: 11
Perceived Improvement: 8
400m: 15.221
1000m: 27.124
Top: 244.24kph
G.V.S.Best: 2'17.264
Total: 86

1st:FTO '99 by Leonidae
2nd:RSX TSR '04 by Rotary Junkie
3rd:Tigra '99 by Paulie

Their is the final placement after discussion on this and that by a few of us, not to mention me missing the Turbo 1 in Maf's Megane SPORT and totally stuffing up my list for Roj's Civic, but all fixed now.....

Nuro
 
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N3 Class
The cars were driven and timed around El Capitan then Driven round GVS.
Also please note I was using a DS2 controller.

Chevrolet Corvette ZO5 (c5) '00
El Capitan Time:1,58.853
Comfort:13
Cornering Attitude:12
Cornering Prowess:16
Power To Capability:11
Improvement:4
Overall:56
Notes: It seemed to understeer into the corner and then oversteer out even under light throttle. The gears are way to far apart. Too slippery through the corners

BMW M3 CSL
El Capitan Time: 153.696
Comfort:23
Cornering Attitude:22
Cornering Prowess:22
Power To Capability:14
Improvement:9
Overall:90
Notes:At first I was overdriving this car, it needs to be driven easily and smoothly to get the most out of it. The car flows well and the gears are set excellently. It has a hint of oversteer which makes it easier to drive and more fun. The only problem I had with this car was how scary it was ;)

RX-7
El Capitan Time:2,06.381
Comfort:24
Cornering Attitude:20
Cornering Prowess:18
Power To Capability:13
Improvement:8
Overall:83
Notes:Very nice smooth setup. Felt great to drive. It corners very well and can drift easily if you want it to. The only thing I have to say about this car is it feels very sluggish. It just doesn't have that fast feel to it like the BMW.

Suzuki Concept s-2
El Capitan Time:2,05.801
Comfort:11
Cornering Attitude:5
Cornering Prowess:10
Power To Capability:9
Improvement:3
Overall:38
Notes:In gears one and two there is quite high amounts of wheelspin, especially once you hit the powerband in second gear. The biggest flaw in this car is the amount of understeer you get when going around Medium or fast corners
 
I know that I am teh w1n. :sly: no no no, please don't kneel, it's not necessary.. :D

*makes note to mark Leo down for being overly boastful*

Nah, that wouldn't be me. I eliminated a car for violating the spirit of competition, I can't do the same.
 
Tuner Challenge Version Four AWD Class.

Happy new year everyone!:sly:

As a little present have I judged the AWD class for you all.:)
This is how I did it:

- Warming up at the Nurburgring.
- To the maximum at Grand Valley Speedway.

The results:
TCV4.jpg

1st 2nd 3rd Last one under WPR is average.

Evo IV - Kurei

I've always liked the Lan Evo. It's raw rally like looks and driving just makes me drool.:drool: With this one, it wasn't different. It's easy to maintain control, while still being hard enough to push you getting the most out of almost every corner. I also loved the semi-drift way it handles in the sharper corners, without ever getting out of control. The gearbox is a bit too short though. It tops out at 245 +- km/h.

Comfort: 22
Cornering Attitude: 23
Cornering Prowess: 23
Power To Capability: 15
Improvement: 5
Overall: 88

Nissan Stagea 260RS Autech Version - VTiRoj

Not much to say here really. It handles great, goes fast and handles much better than I had expected it to do on the 'Ring. Too bad the gearbox is a bit too long really. I didn't get to use the 6th gear, even on the long straight on Nurb. This didn't really bother me so it didn't cost you as much points as it did with kurei's Evo.

Comfort: 23
Cornering Attitude: 24
Cornering Prowess: 24
Power To Capability: 14
Improvement: 7
Overall: 92

RUF CTR2 - AdamGP

Although I really like the Porsche looks of this car, the handling is a bit less Porsche. Sometimes it was hard to keep this one under control at the limit. Understeer and instability when braking from high speeds made it difficult. Seemed the LSD Decelleration was to low, I guess. The gearbox was good though. ;)

Comfort: 15
Cornering Attitude: 15
Cornering Prowess: 20
Power To Capability: 10
Improvement: 3
Overall: 58

Mitsubishi 3000GT - Leonidae

Perfectionisticly perfect. No matter how you try, you won't find a flaw. Loveable handling, almost MR/FR like steering and tons of control at your hands and feet. Fits me like a piece of a puzzle.

Comfort: 25
Cornering Attitude: 25
Cornering Prowess: 25
Power To Capability: 14
Improvement: 10
Overall: 99

Audi TT Coupe 3.2 quattro - Shoman

Extreme makeover. You are always in control, at and even a bit over the limit. Handling is good also. It's as much of a surprise as the new TTS. 👍 But still, I felt it could use a bit more punch...

Comfort: 23
Cornering Attitude: 25
Cornering Prowess: 25
Power To Capability: 12
Improvement: 8
Overall: 93

VW Golf IV R32 - Bergauk

This one has amazing speed for a Golf. That's why I'm a bit amazed that the power fits the car so well. I thought you'd slammed a bit too much on it. It's well balanced and has good cornering behavior. Too bad the gears a bit too long. It could use a bit more turn in too.

Comfort: 22
Cornering Attitude: 23
Cornering Prowess: 20
Power To Capability: 15
Improvement: 5
Overall: 85

Subaru Impreza 22B-STi - Nuro

Insane, this car. Pure adrenaline like accelleration. And enough downforce keeping that on the track.:crazy: Loved it.
Didn't like the oversteer during braking though, but it sure makes this car eccentric/unique.;)

Comfort: 23
Cornering Attitude: 25
Cornering Prowess: 25
Power To Capability: 15
Improvement: 7
Overall: 95

Subaru Impreza WRX STi Spec C. - =Drifting24/7=

While the other Impreza already had insane speed potential, this is even faster. I was stunned by it's Nurburgring laptime. Faster while having a worse WPR than the 22B, Golf R32 and the CTR2! That could be because it's downforce was tuned best, while others didn't have downforce at all or too much.

Comfort: 25
Cornering Attitude: 25
Cornering Prowess: 25
Power To Capability: 15
Improvement: 8
Overall: 98


Nr.1: 3000 GT - Leonidae
Nr.2: Subaru Impreza WRX STi Spec C. - =Drifting24/7=
Nr.3: Subaru Impreza 22B-STi - Nuro


Nr.4: Audi TT Coupe 3.2 quattro - Shoman
Nr.5: Nissan Stagea 260RS Autech Version - VTiRoj
Nr.6: Evo IV - Kurei
Nr.7: Golf R32 - Bergauk
Nr.8: RUF CTR2 - AdamGP
 
Comfort (25) Cor Att (25) Cor Pro (25) P2C (15) PI (10) Total
Renault Megane 2.0 (Adamgp) 16 13 14 7 6 56
Volkswagon Golf 1 GTI-R 11 19 17 5 5 57
AT Vauxhall Tigara 19 17 19 8 7 70
Renault Megane (Camryfan) 14 16 16 7 5 58
Acura RSX TS-R 24 23 24 15 9 95
Honda Civic Type R (EP) 23 22 22 13 8 88
Honda CR-X 16 12 12 9 6 55
Spoon Civic Type R 22 21 22 12 8 85
Mitsubishi FTO GP-RS 23 22 23 14 9 91
Renault Megane Sport (MafiaBoy) 12 20 21 6 5 64

Sorry for the poor format, but I figured you're all keen to see the numbers. Will update this with reviews of the 2/3 top scorers when I have a chance.
 
PF, let me help you:

1. Acura RSX TS-R ’04 by Rotary Junkie 95
2. Mitsubishi FTO GP-RS'99 by Leonidae 91
3. Honda Civic Type R (EP) ’04 by VTiRoj 88
4. Spoon Civic Type R '00 (EK9) by drifting 24/7 85
5. AT Holden Tigra '99 by Paulie 70
6. RENAULT MEGANE SPORT '03 by Mafia_boy 64
7. Renault Megane R230R by Camryfan 58
8. '76 VW Golf I GTI-R FWD class by shoman 57
9. Renault Megane 2.0 IDE ’00 by Adamgp 56
10. Honda CR-X del Sol SiR '92 by Kurei 55
 
Pertinent Information

In descending order of winnitude, the FF-Klasse:

untitled-6.jpg


Tigra: 96 A very modern-feeling car with an emphasis on handling. The gearbox is quite good, really a bit short, but that’s needed on low-power car with high downforce. The cornering is phenomenal: The downforce, light weight, and modern chassis combine to give huge cornering speeds. When driven well, the car hints towards oversteer. When driven poorly, it understeers. And the car is very, very fast. The only issue is that it feels somehow squishy, like there’s a bit of imprecision to the drive. Other than that, excellent. The polar opposite of the GTI, actually.

Megane ’03: 91 A very good car to drive. The odd way I feel about it is accurately summed up by its tagline “factory-spec.” It feels very balanced, about as much oversteer as you could ask for in an FF in GT4. The handling has an imprecise feel, but that’s okay, somehow, because the traction is reasonable and the grip is good. The gearing is on the tall side of ideal, but not bad. The car feels like it was built not for racing, but for spirited driving. The car feels not just oversteering, but balanced. When I don’t want oversteer, the back merely slides the perfect amount to aid exit speeds. It’s fantastic.

RSX: 85 A very good car, and not as good as it could be. The handling is very composed and capable, the thrust well-matched to the car, and the laptimes staggeringly fast. But the gearbox is too high, paired with an overkill motor. It’s an extremely good car, but it fails in that obvious category to the extent that I dislike it. Also, it saddens me that this is the tame DC5 of RJ’s creation. I loved the old one, but only respecct this one.

Del Sol: 84 This is a very high-strung fairly-low-spec car. It’s pretty good to drive, and laptimes can vary greatly based upon subtle differences in skill. The upshot of that is that this is a car to test a driver, which magnifies errors and rewards good driving. That said, it’s not spectacular based upon tuning criteria. The grip is good but not great, the balance is predictable understeer, and everything is good but not great. Also, the gearbox is good. I like it, but it’s not for everyone.

Spoon Civic: 82 The scary Spoon Civic has been tamed, actually a little too much. The gearbox is good, the grip is slightly above-average, and the traction is unfaultable. I would happily trade some controllability for some maneuverability, certainly an odd thing to say about a Spoon. The balance is just understeer, but that’s forgiven by the composed and fairly high quick cornering. This is a very good tune on a very difficult car, but it’s swayed a bit too far from the car’s original character. It’s no longer difficult and unusable, it’s now a bit dull.

GTI ’76: 80 A very old-school sort of car and setting. The gearbox is perfect, a bit high for solo runs but just right for drafting in races. The suspension is stiff and focused, giving way to occasional traction problems but allowing primo happiness otherwise. There was absolutely no oversteer that didn’t eventually lead into understeer through the “wobbling” effect, so balance recieves low points. The power is a wee bit much for the handling, hence the “old school,” but the balance there is still good. I really like this car, but it numerically loses.

Megane ‘00: 77 A very powerful and capable modern car, but not totally perfect: The high power is paired with too-high gearbox settings. A better way would be lower power, lower gearbox. The handling is good: forward weight transfer under braking, and lift-throttle oversteer through the turns. In long turns, though, strong understeer prevails. A very comfortable car, and capable, but a bit modern: excess power, detatched feel.

Civic R ’04: 76 A very high-strung and fast modern car. The gearbox is excellent, courageously low considering the high power. Predictably, it has traction issues, but not nearly as much as expected. The high-speed handling is much better than the low-speed handling, likely due to downforce, but a car with 319hp shouldn’t be specializing in high speeds. At speed, it just grips impossibly well and gets through turns at suprising speeds. At low speeds, it feels a bit too high-strung, a bit too difficult, even if still pretty grippy. It’s a little slower than the RSX, the other RVV Honda here, but I much prefer it because its flaws make it much more interesting and involving to drive.

Megane ’03: 64 Not a good car. The gearing is too low. The handling is understeering and slow. It’s not fast enough to apologize for these things. I like nothing about it, so let’s not split hairs.

FTO: 40 A disproportionately scary car. It’s a high-power FF, and it does nothing to hide this from you. Traction issues, though managable, are omnipresent. Throttle-steer is available when the front isn’t busy bouncing, and is subtle and good. Unfortunately, the front is almost always busy bouncing and losing traction. Perhaps that would explain the embarrasing laptime. It got beaten by the Tigra, which has one discernable advantage: Weight. If this car was more softly-sprung, it would be much, much faster, and perhaps even good. But, in the present state, it’s not good at all.
 
AWD JUDGING or CamryFan's wall of text.

How I tested: The cars where build one by one and given a five lap shakedown on Tsukuba, driven back to back. Initial thoughts and scores where recorded for reference. I set a Skyline V-Spec Nur as the benchmark

After the cars where shaken down on Tsukuba, they were taken to Twin Ring Motegi. Over the East Course the cars where given 7 laps to make their claims against my marking. A second set of marks where recorded and those are the marks you see here. I would like to say that the top 3 cars where highly contested and they all really deserve to win but only one of them did.

But before we get to that lets see the laptime winners.

laptimes.gif

As you can see from my weird hands that Nuro's Scooby was a domiator which makes this a little surprising.

results.gif


It actually scored the lowest. Here's my thoughts from highest score to lowest score.

Scooby Spec-C by d24/7

Comfort: The times that come out of the back of that car a pretty consistent. Car can and occasionally does get away from you while you take a nap.

Attitude and Prowess: Just a step above the rest in my opinion. The Audi was extremely good but this is just that little bit better.

Power: What I'm calling a “power stutter” where the car seems to skip a lot during hard acceleration kept you from getting 10 out of 10. It only appeared every now and again but its very real issue with the car.

Improvements: Control the torque or change the gearbox and get rid of that stuttering power.

Audi TT 3.2 V6

Comfort: Not a class leader in comfort but it is damn good.
Attitude and Prowess: BAH!!! This car is so good. It grips and it goes unlike any other AWD car that I have driven. Driven properly and it almost gives zero understeer and not even a hint of oversteer. It's magnificently well planted and it goes hard.

Power: 10/10

Improvement: None.

3000GT

Comfort: I found this rather interesting myself but much like the Skyline, the 3000GT has been tuned so it has a natural rhythm. To further explain that the 3000GT likes being driven a certain way, push the boundaries of that and so less then favourable characteristics rear they're heads. Still, keep in rhythm and the car is very sedate, in a good way.

Cornering Attitude and Prowess: Well, it was pretty good. Pushing past the rhythm of the car showed some interesting characteristics as mentioned such as plough understeer and the like. Must be said its a quick car, so it gains points for Prowess.

Power: Right where I want it to be.

Improvement: It's fine the way it is, but I found the Scooby to be a little bit better.

Stagea.

Comfort: Hey the backs gone out again, whoo hoo and again. Man this is cool. Wait what does the clock say, 1:31 geez we better concentrate.

Attitude and Prowess: To be fair it is a quick car, after I had finished fooling around with the back end it became a very capible car and its a wagon too which is even more impressive.

Power: Bang on I think. Well balanced. Very little of that tail out stuff came from power oversteer but sometimes it did on corner exit. Just one point lost.

Improvements: Overall it needs to be more stable in the comfort department.


Lan EVO by Kurei


Comfort: Didn't try to kill me but it didn't really wow me, still looking for the lazy mans car.'

Cornering Attitude and Prowess: Typical Lan EVO attitude. Turn in understeer, power on understeer. Corner exit Understeer. Not particularly good. Actually its a little too slow.

Power: Right where I want it to be.

Improvement: Well its hard to say with an EVO, the natural chassis is geared toward understeer however I believe more effort is needed to get rid of said understeer.

Golf R32.


Comfort: Not to bad, easy to recover from making a mistake but its not the lazy mans car im looking for.

Cornering Attitude and Prowess: Little bit of understeer but not as “controllable” as other AWD vehicles. Feels pretty good, but is regrettable slow.

Power: On the money

Improvements: Just change the attitude of the car. The suspension needs a different approach to tuning to get the best out of the car.

RUF CTR2

Comfort: Well, its not good and it's not bad. Low score for pretty variable lap times.

Cornering Attitude and Prowess: Too much understeer again. Better then the Scooby but has much to learn from the Skyline. The car can be fairly quick but its overshadowed by a lot of the other cars.

Power. Well there's no increase in power so the chasis can handle it, but really it could use a little more.

Improvements: Tune out some understeer.


Subaru Coupe 22B by Nuro.


Comfort: On the track off the track. Does blistering laptimes but only occasionally. Very difficult to drive. Inches between you and death, or dead laptimes.

Cornering Attitude: Too much understeer. This ends up causing a dent in the comfort mark just because of the understeer. Oh, and it rotates under brake. However if you get it under control, it's bloody quick.

Power: Too much, way too much. With all the power, some of it going to the front wheels it disrupts the car to an extent.

Improvement: It's quick but it needs to be comfortable as well. Consistentcy is the key to winning races, while this car is a key to winning a time attack.

It was really hard picking a winner out of the top three cars but I ended up giving it to d24/7. Technically its the best all rounder and 2nd place in the laptimes isn't two bad either.

Special Awards I wanted to give out a few special awards to some cars I found impressive.

Fastest Time - Tsukuba Nuro and his Imprezza Coupe

Fastest Time - Twin Ring Nuro and his Imprezza Coupe.

While it didn't win big in the Tuner Challenge it did set amazing laptimes. It wasn't the best car by my judging but it was certainly the fastest. Congrats Nuro.

The Lazy mans Car Award. I gave this to the car that got me the most relaxed, the one that had unspeakable rhythm. and the winner is LEO and his 3000 GT

Favorite Car Now this one was close, it was deffinetly in favour of the Audi TT, it lost on the straights but made it up when you go around a round about. But then Vtiroj's Stagea came and impressed me with its massive powerslides. But there can only be one winner and it is....... The Audi TT by Shoman.

Thanks to all participators and I eagerly await the flaming.
 
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TCv4 Judging Results​

1.Kurei’s Evo 4 (Evo 4/X) – 313Kw (426hp) running 12.09 on the ¼. 2.05.8 at GVS.
Comfort: 23 – The car has that WRC effect that Kurei was mentioning, you just have to trust the car to do what you think it’s going to do which takes a few laps to do. Once you hit that zone, huge four wheel drifts around double apex corners (like the double left at GVS) can be achieved with ease. The car’s WRC tendencies require a lot of throttle control while sideways and for a DS2 user could’ve been overcome with a slight weakening of the acceleration in the front LSD because constant throttle control does become annoying. ;)
Attitude: 24 – As said above, the only flaw I could find in its cornering attitude came when I was sideways through the corner and when it came time to jam on the gas, it would want to understeer. However, progressive throttle control eliminated that, but it would’ve been easily fixed with a slight decrease in accel on the front LSD. :indiff:
Prowess: 24 – The more that you got into the car, the quicker you got. The more trust you gave the car, the more it would reward you. There’s no need to force the car to turn or drift or anything, it will do it if you prod it in the right direction. The ability to flick through the fast chicanes too was amazing while low speed WRC sweep was profound and fun to work with. :D
Capability: 15 – Absolutely where it should be for the specs shown. There wasn’t one change that overwhelmed the tune of the car. The stock gearbox works a treat for the tasks at hand, can be used one day at GVS, the next at Costa, the next at Tahiti Maze, it’s an all round beast. 👍
Improvement: 10 – There’s not much else you could really do apart from wanting to fit your own FC gearbox to set the ratios for a more blistering through the gears acceleration for the car, but would that really improve the dynamics of the car? I doubt it and I think it would be a detriment for it, and so it doesn’t lose points for not having the FC gearbox. :cool:
Total Score: 96/100
Summary: This is the definition of a grade A car, absolutely wonderful to drive, but best suited for people who are used to sideways action and like to emulate Tommi Makinen. :) A+ from me. 👍

2.Vtiroj’s Stagea 260RS – 340Kw (463hp) running 11.65 on the ¼. 2.05.4 at GVS.
Comfort: 19 – The car has more of a circuit racer feel with its handling setup, but with too much weight being carried still (over 1400kg), it doesn’t pull things off with the same ease as Kurei’s Evo and as such, I had to work harder to get the same speed out of the car. On most of the higher speed sections it was really good but it was still a handful to keep under control.
Attitude: 14 – I enjoy a car doing a bit of oversteer or drift through a corner, but when the car starts doing SNAP oversteer that changes the game a bit and sends you into the nearest wall. That’s what I experienced here. On slower corners (60-80km/h), the car would start to wheelspin and when it came to change direction, it would pause then snap it too far which would cause major corrections. The other detriments were its weight and lack of increased brake balance. Weight can’t be helped, Stagea’s are fat, but when you hit the brake and you’re sliding with no control towards the kitty litter, it makes the drive that less enjoyable. 👎
Prowess: 18 – There were some good bits in this. Leaving the ATTESA centre diff in there helped a lot in cornering but the lack of front and rear FC LSD’s was a letdown and caused most of the snap oversteer problems I encountered under throttle. When I cornered, it seemed like eternity to get back onto the throttle, if it wasn’t for the 463hp on the straight line it might’ve been slower than Kurei’s Evo. :eek:
Capability: 11 – For the job at hand it will crush a lot of AI cars and show a few the door and it should with all that power. But the FC gearbox ratios were a little bit too far spaced out (couldn’t get into 6th on GVS!), but in this level of heat it’s getting grilled.
Improvement: 7 – As said, further tuning of the gearbox is in order to give the car more of a fighting chance!! The ratios are too long. The brakes need to be dialled in more too.
Total Score: 69/100
Summary: Needs more improvement in most areas. It’s fast in a straight line, but that’s about it, around the corners it would be carved up. A decent effort but it gets a B-.

3.=drifting24/7=’s Spec-C – 322Kw (438hp) running 11.16 on the ¼. 1.59.0 at GVS.
Comfort: 19 – The car is another that had a circuit orientation and with a good balance of weight and power, it’s speed provided a sense of safety knowing that if you made a mistake you could still catch up quickly. While it is relatively easy to get a consistent lap time, it wasn’t easy to get a consistent race line.
Attitude: 17 – The main problem with this car is understeer, lots and lots of understeer. This prevented me from finding a consistent race line to put down some serious laps. If this was dialled out with a combination of some toe angle and stiffer sway-bars (stabilisers), as well as a weakening in the LSD then you would have a very deadly combination.
Prowess: 21 – While it did understeer quite a lot, it didn’t stop it going through the corners any slower than the previous cars tested, in some spots it was actually faster. In fact, if the handling is improved that little bit more, an easy 5-10km/h more could be achieved through all of the corners and would’ve given it a perfect or near to perfect score in this section.
Capability: 13 – In the low end, it’s too much power for the tyres to handle due to the way the turbo spools up, but it keeps going through to 8000rpm with decent acceleration. Apart from that, it was a very quick and capable machine, going sub-2.00 at GVS is impressive in itself.
Improvement: 8 – The 6th gear was what I felt a little too long on the car and the LSD is a little too strong, but on the whole it was decently put together.
Total Score: 78/100
Summary: Blisteringly quick, but needs that final polishing touch to make it the circuit monster it’s intended to be. :) Nice overall effort, a very strong B grade on that, borderline B+.

4.Nuro’s 22B – 403Kw (548hp) running 10.85 on the ¼. 2.00.5 at GVS.
Comfort: 11 – The car has a sense of wanting to be a rally car at a racetrack, with a lot of front brake bias causing the rear to oversteer under braking. While it had good straight line speed, the car would never go where I wanted it to go, causing a lot of frustration in a short period of time. The lack of a chassis refresh caused me a lot of concern with cornering being harder than it should’ve been.
Attitude: 9 – I thought I was understeering when I drove the Spec-C, then I drove this. I could’ve renamed it the Queen Mary 2 the way it reminded me of a boat with its handling being shot to pieces with the current settings. Toe Angle was the wrong way around, the damper was too soft on the front and too stiff in the rear, the springs were too soft in the front and the camber was too extreme.
Prowess: 9 – Because of the mismatching on the settings, I was consistently 10-20km/h slower around every corner to every car tested before it. For something that packed this much power, I was expecting to absolutely smash the times apart, but to be a second slower than the Spec-C which had 100hp less and 200kg more was very disappointing and lost a heap of points for that fact.
Capability: 8 – It’s straight line speed would make it good for tracks like Seoul or New York, but that’s about it, the poor handling would leave you vulnerable against a good AI line up.
Improvement: 3 – Only the specs of the car itself give it some credibility. The gearing was very long and the whole setup needs re-working.
Total Score: 40/100
Summary: A very poorly executed example of the 22B and needs to be taken back to the drawing board to remove the existing problems. This gets an F- from me. 👎

5.bergauk’s R32 Golf – 337Kw (458hp) running 11.72 on the ¼. 2.04.1 at GVS.
Comfort: 21 – The car has a very neutral feel, which is remarkable for a car that is still running S2 tyres. The gearing though is too tall for the car which restricts its acceleration and lap times, thus deducting points. But the handling of the car itself was more than enough to compensate for that annoyance. WRC style turns could be initiated at the hairpins for more happy action. :)
Attitude: 22 – The turn in and change of direction were impressive for a car running the S2 tyres, keeping up with all the other S3 shod runners through the curves, giving a bit more understeer but nothing too unmanageable. This fact gives it bonus points across most of the board for appearing worse than it actually is. It drives like a dream and gives you more confidence each lap.
Prowess: 23 – The cornering speeds were almost unbelievable for an S2 shod car. I was expecting to be slower but I was faster than all the cars before it bar Kurei’s Evo around the corners. I could just imagine how much faster I could be with S3’s on the car, I figured somewhere around the 2.00 mark.
Capability: 14 – Overall it was a very nice wrapped up package, especially for something that had no down force. This car’s gearing would be more suited to the longer straight circuits (Le Sarthe, New York, Fuji) but the handling is just right for any situation.
Improvement: 9 - The main issues I saw were the gearing being too tall, and maybe a VCD could’ve been added to give you more control over how you want to make the car move for your style. The main thing is just changing the final ratio back to default. EVERYTHING else would’ve been spot on with the gearing and made the car a weapon. Regardless, this will decimate nearly anything the AI throws at you.
Total Score: 89/100
Summary: A wonderful road car with enough forgiveness for the newer driver/tuner. This proves that you don’t need every mod in the book to make a wonderful driving car. This gets an A- from me, only just under being a straight grade A car.

6.shoman’s Audi TT 3.2 – 245Kw (334hp) running 12.53 on the ¼. 2.05.1 at GVS.
Comfort: 24 – The car is very precise with its feel, only giving the slightest hint of understeer under acceleration but will turn anywhere you point it. The gearing is short, sharp and precise allowing quick acceleration for a car with only 245Kw and cornering is a delight, with not a hint of body roll. This reminds me of the A4 Quattro’s in the BTCC with the way it goes around the circuit.
Attitude: 25 – The turn in and change of direction were just breathtaking, allowing me to go faster and faster each lap I completed. The corner speed of the car allowed it to be faster than cars packing 100hp more than it over a lap which was astonishing. It gives a sense of invincibility to it the way you want to push harder and harder with it.
Prowess: 25 – The way you can just dive into each corner from the perfectly balanced brakes allows the driver to go harder and harder into each corner bringing lap times down by the tenths. A little down force here, a little camber tweak there turned this TT from a whale to a whale of a good time.
Capability: 15 – A perfectly well rounded tuner car. I can’t fault any section with any deductions because it’s rolled into a fine package. The speed might be down for longer tracks but the handling would more than make up for it.
Improvement: 10 – For the car that it is, there shouldn’t be another thing put onto it. Maybe it could take another stage of NA tuning, but it’s really not needed and wouldn’t really make any difference to the great package the car already is apart from making it even faster. The AI stands no chance as it sits now, even on L10.
Total Score: 99/100
Summary: I’ve just driven Audi heaven, and it’s been created by shoman. This is everything you would want with a road car and would be welcome in my garage any day. A+ and a high distinction from me. :D:D:D:D:D:tup:👍

7.Leonidae’s 3000GT SR – 298Kw (406hp) running 12.04 on the ¼. 2.03.9 at GVS.
Comfort: 22 – There is always a sense of comfort that comes with MFT tunes, and this is no different. Very compliant on most turns and gives a sense of wanting to go harder than you should. Power understeer does occur under hard cornering compared to some of the others, but a bit of throttle lifting brings it back into line making it very easy to drive.
Attitude: 23 – Wonderful turn in on corners, allowing the driver to hit the apex nearly all the time. Very precise handling and a great feel on most circuits. The suspension is stiff for bumpy circuits like Nurburgring, but isn’t too harsh overall for other tracks like GVS. Understeer under hard acceleration restricts its pace out of slower corners but otherwise a great ride.
Prowess: 24 – The fastest out of the bunch around most of the corners, this spat out consistent, fast lap times despite the power disadvantage to some other entries. The gearing is spot on for the tasks at hand, even allowing a slightly longer 6th gear for those longer straights. If the understeer was dialled out more, this would’ve got perfect.
Capability: 14 – This is a well rounded package all up. The handling makes it a weapon in the most skilled hands and is gentle enough to allow the beginner to grab the controller and drive around GVS like a semi-pro.
Improvement: 10 – All areas of the car have been covered, and allow any driver to go ahead and compete against the best that the AI has to offer without feeling disadvantaged in any way. Novices to experts alike can grab this car and enjoy it day after day.
Total Score: 93/100
Summary: A wonderful car all round, that can be pushed around lap after lap with enjoyment by all drivers, good and bad. It’s a N/A Evo that Mitsubishi would be proud of. I give it a strong A mark.

8.adamgp’s RUF CTR2 – 403Kw (548hp) running 11.56 on the ¼. 2.04.8 at GVS.
Comfort: 9 – This car was all over the place in all of its settings that I didn’t once feel right when I was driving it. Understeer, wheelspin, lock up under braking, all the things that take away a driver’s confidence and comfort in a car were all there in this ride. I didn’t get a really consistent lap at all.
Attitude: 6 – I was understeering so much I felt like I was driving the Titanic, driving a boat off road most of the time. When you needed to turn you had to chuck it in and pray that it wouldn’t understeer off into the next wall.
Prowess: 3 – The slowest of all through the corners, I kept waiting and waiting and waiting to get back on the throttle, then waited some more! So frustrating to get a quick lap in and it shows, being four seconds slower than the 22B which had similar turning problems, but nothing compared to this. This was dreadful.
Capability: 2 – Not really capable of anything other than being a show car with 550hp. It’s so out of place when next to a field as quick as this it really shows it’s out of its depths. The tuning is so out of place, from the gearbox tuning to the suspension, there weren’t any areas I could really say stood out as good.
Improvement: 0 – The only car I felt that it didn’t actually improve at all. In fact, it was worse than the stock RUF settings.
Total Score: 20/100
Summary: This doesn’t just need to be taken back to the drawing board, it should be scrapped altogether. Gets an F- from me and the tuner should be held back for detention. :P

So, the overall scoresheet is as follows:
1. shoman's AUDI TT = 99/100
2. Kurei's EVO 4 = 96/100
3. Leonidae's 3000GT SR = 93/100
4. bergauk's GOLF R32 = 89/100
5. =drifting24/7='s SPEC-C = 78/100
6. Vtiroj's STAGEA 260RS = 69/100
7. NURO's IMPREZA 22B = 40/100
8. adamgp's RUF CTR2 = 20/100

Sorry about the delays boys, hope you like your reviews. Took me a while to go through everything properly. :cool: CONGRATS SHOMAN!! :D
 
Okay, so i've been recruited here. :) This thread is kinda like the "setup versus setup" threads me, Sucahyo, MacRoadster, and other used to do back in my GT2 days, except there was no contest involved. We merely would "get in each other's cars" just to see the differences.

So for my first car, i got into VTiRoj's Supra RZ[/b].

Comfort: 21:

This was interesting. It took me a couple laps around Grand Valley Full Course
before i started to learn this car's habits. Once i learned them, i found it fairly comfortable (and predictable) to drive around. On the other hand, this RZ felt a bit sanitized to me, mostly since the rigidity refresh had just been done on top of a stage 3 weight redux. Also the suspension (particularly dampers & springs) was set way different than i would set it. This isn't necesarily a BAD thing...just different.

Overall, VTiRoj's RZ feels very solid. I only dock a few points for feeling a bit too solid. Personally, i would eschew the rigid refresh. The RZ loses too much personality because of it (this part is hard for me to explain..it's a feeling, more than something i can put into words). I WOULD, however, get a rigidity refresh if i was to pput this car in some situation in which it had alot more power.


Cornering attitude: 19:

There was a bit too much understeer mid-corner, which i would personally solve (and did) by removing the limited-slip, and getting rid of any toe. For a car running only stock power + oil change (357 hp), i would personally not use a limited-slip on a sports car like this. The Supra RZ (in real-life) has a limited-slip even when it's stock from the dealer, and PD modeled this to some extent because the RZ got a pretty solid rear with no LSD, although it can still surprise...

At times, the car (despite the limited slip) got fishtaily anyways, perhaps due in part to those softer rear springs, but i'm not docking points because (A). It's a Supra! some fishtailing is welcome. (B). This isn't something i would necessarily try to tune away. I like some unsure-ness. :D

Once i removed the toe and the limited-slip, i had the RZ more to my liking. I could enter corners more predictably, let the car to coast before i hammered the throttle. I found it easier to "lock" into a racing-line. There was still some understeer, but i felt it was easier to avoid.


Cornering Prowess: 21
I have no real heavy complaints here that i haven't already said in the previous section. Again, a bit too much understeer, which i deleted by removing a part and fixing that toe. In either version of the RZ (mine or VtiRoj's) i could push it thru the twisty parts. I could see myself racing this car, even with VtiRoj's settings. 👍

Power to Capability: 15
To me, the power doesn't overwhelm this RZ unless i tell it to. There is still plenty of decision left to me, which i like. The car's power stays well within its capability of grip and other factors for normal racing, unless i MAKE it overwhelm the car...which i would ordinarily have no reason to do.

Perceived Changes: 8
I, personally, could only make the RZ marginally faster. The thing is, i'm only docking points because this car feels a bit over-tuned. I feel comfortable driving it, but it's not quite flexible enough. A bit stiff. Safe, but rigid.


The gears felt okay, i could keep the tach hovering between 4,000 and redline out-of-corners (peak power is at 5,600), or shift faster in straight sections, keeping the tach needle pegged between 5,000 and 6,200-ish. I could choose to shift into 6th towards the end of the GV straight, but this wasn't mandatory. If i were doing an actual race, 6th could possibly (and safely) be used as i drafted another car.

Total: 84 (please double-check that...i'm getting sleepy :indiff:



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Next Victim: Mr. Black :scared:

aka, Leonidae's MR2

Track: Grand Valley full course (again)

Comfort: 25

I felt immediately at "home" in this car, and never felt as though i had to "wrestle" it, like in a typical near-stock MR2. Not much else to say. It still feels like an MR2 (albeit, twitchy), but this twitchyness has obviously been toned way, way down thru the use of toe, LSD, and rigidity.

Cornering Attitude: 22

Again, the typical MR2 negatives have been toned down, but not removed altogether. I noticed additional understeer when plowing thru longer turns, which isn't a bad thing in an MR2. It's nice to add some front-end limit in a mid-engine car. Also, MR2s usually have "too-grippy" front-ends, that lock heavily into a turn (especially if that turn is a lower-speed one), leaving the rear prone to lose traction and spin. Not Mr. Black, which feels more balanced in this regard. Lift-off oversteer is also present, yet very easy to manage (unlike in a stocker MR2 at high speed).

....It took some really bad driving on my part before i got this car to do anything stupid.

I only dock a couple points because this car feels a bit "over"tuned, and not as fun as an MR2 usually feels. Not as cut-throat. But otherwise, i'm having a really hard time trying to think of anything bad to say about Mr. Black. :indiff:

Cornering Prowess: 25

This car let's you play "boss"; its driveability and capabilities have been heightened in a good way. Entering corners from high-speed in an MR2 (basically braking while employing small amounts of steering input into a corner) can be downright dangerous...but in Mr. Black, i mostly felt very confident, even rushing into the first Grand Valley hairpin. :scared: The brakes are keyed in light, which is okay. You don't want too-strong brakes in an MR2, after all, which can cause drastic behavior.

Power to Capability: 15

Unfortunately, the G-limited MR2 can't make more than 304 horses. :indiff: If it could be powered higher, i could surely dock some points. ;) But Mr. Black always feels solid so far as power-to-pavement goes. I could even push the car into a semi-slide, plant the throttle, and could reliably get the rear-end to behave. No wanton over-torqued power-slides in this machine.

Perceived Changes: 9

Other than going "backwards" (making the car less of a racing car, and more of a sports car with lesser parts), i can't knock Mr. Black at all. The gearing is very precise, which doesn't surprise me since Leonadae is a long-established tuner. It was a little short for Grand Valley, but would be perfect at a slightly shorter track. Anyways, i'm not docking points for this. If anything, i would make this car just a tad more dangerous to drive (that's how i like 'em). ;)

Total: 96

I really gotta say hats off to Leonidae. MR2s are not easy to tune, or drive at high speed.
 
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THESE MAY NOT BE FINAL SCORES because I still need a comparison to the other eight cars. Any differences will only be minor.

Results are in a jpeg attachment, will edit it into the post when I figure out how. Comments will probably be expanded as I work through the cars.

RWD II.JPG
 
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Next Victim: :crazy: McSqueegy's 350Z

Comfort: 14

This car was so different from anything i have driven so far. It has some admirable traits, and some neat quirks, but i could never fully get the hang of it. I did learn a couple things about settings i normally wouldn't have known after studying why i could never get the hang of this car. :indiff:

Cornering Attitude: 16

The BEST thing i noticed about McSqueegy's car is the fact that he's not afriad not to use a limited-slip. I checked, double-checked, and triple-checked to make sure i definately did NOT need to buy & install one. 👍 The reason i dig this is because..at just 322 horses, this is a car that does not need any limited-slip action. I also dug this car's odd habit of "pivoting" thru turns. I haven't driven a stock 350Z yet, so i'm not sure if the car does this while stock, or whether this is due to settings. I'm guessing it's partially the wing, partially toe, and also the fact that no limited-slip is present to interfere with additional understeer. When pushed, i could get some nice lift-off oversteer due to this odd behaviour

Tho this car's pivot could be useful to help it zip around hairpins and the super-tight GV chicane, at times i did feel it was too extreme. It's fun...but not something i personally would choose to have around.

Under braking, the 350Z's steering becomes extremely grabby. Steering input under braking needs to be extremely light on my part, and by force of my own personal habit, i could never get the hang of this. I know it's better than having entry-corner understeer, but I couldn't help steering too hard (MY habit), and winding up in some grass on the inside of the turn. :ouch:

At 73 mm, the car is set very low. I have a habit of driving over the various concrete pads & touching some grids at Grand Valley. The car would always not seem to like this...bouncing to the point that i would lose some of my agility and have to re-think cornering strategy.

Finally, there is understeer at the limit when exiting turns...but this is okay.

Cornering Prowess: 12

Again, it's McSqueegy's car versus my driving habits. I kept having to out-guess this car, and occasionally wrestle it to get it to do what i wanted to. This interfered with my ability to make it a proud winner during an actual race. On the other hand, some of its odd quirks could certainly come in handy once i got used to them.

Power to Capability: 15

A perfect score here. With just an oil change, there isn't too much power involved, so the chassis and tires never feel overwhelmed. Again, i had to double-check to make sure no other engine parts were involved. ;)

Perceived Changes: 6

I started by getting rid of the toe. I'm not a big fan of toe, except for extreme cases (such as a swivelly MR2) or for rallying/off-road stuff. Instantly, i felt more in command. Some of the swivelly behaviour was gone, but some still remained. I could now predictably throttle-steer the car with more command, as well as enter corners without the fear of having the front-end get too grabby. Next, i got rid of the wing settings. This hurt me around GV's longer curves, tho...so there was no benefit; just additional understeer. No points docked.

I raised the car, softened the front stabilizer, and messed with the shocks....all with the goal of killing some of the understeer that was left and also getting the car to behave a bit over bumps & grids. I left the springs alone, tho.

The gearing was too short (way too short) for Grand Valley, but certainly could come in handy at a track like Apricot Hill. I had no issue with it.

Total: 63



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I really wanted to do the rest of the cars in order. Problem is, i've spent days, weeks, and finally months at Las Vegas, resetting and waiting for the Ford Mustang Cobra R and 2-seater Z car to show up...and have yet to see either one. So......


....next victim: The Red Devil


.........aka '78 Datsun 280Z-L

ooops:guilty: NISSAN 280Z-L

Comfort: 23

I immediately felt comfortable in this car. After less than a lap, i was having some real fun with it, actually. It's a tad numb due to all the parts and settings involved (i would prefer just a semi-racing suspension and a 1-way diff myself :D) but i did feel instantly in command of the Red Devil. And within short notice was pushing it. Not much else to say.


Cornering Attitude: 19

The thing i like about the Red Devil is it still feels like an early Z-car. It hasn't been overtuned to oblivion...to the point that it feels like a new Mustang or something. ....No toe 👍 and the actual settings (springs, stabilizers, and camber especially) are ones i would possibly use at some tracks.

I had some problems with braking... not sure if Vince meant this or not, but i noticed he didn't include a racing brake package with his parts list. It says "brake balancer" but no racing brakes, so i bought the balancer, but otherwise left the brake hardware stock. Anyways, the brakes in this car didn't feel strong enough. I over-shot what should have been a good Grand Valley braking point several times, and then had to perform damage control mid-corner. Once i learned where this car likes to brake, however, i was okay.

Again, i'd like to emphasize the fact that this machine still feels like a Z despite some tuning. :D I noticed the actual tuning of brakes, suspension, and limited-slip is pretty mild. This car was alot of FUN. I could trail-brake it, steer hard into a corner and get some mid-corner lift-off oversteer, pound the throttle and get a sweet semi-drift happening! With harder tires, no doubt this could be a fun drift car with these exact settings. I'm not the best drifter-dude around, so it took me awhile to get a few decent slide-ways manuevers ;) in this car, probly since it's on S3 tires. But front-end snapback was NOT a problem in this car. :)👍 Again, lots of fun.

There was some mid to late-corner understeer when i wasn't being drifty, unfortunately......perhaps due to the limited-slip. I would work on that, even tho there's not a whole lot to improve here. But i know i could get what understeer there is in this car to fall even farther. There were a few times during understeer-moments that i could stomp the gas, getting fairly predictable throttle-steer, and thereby erase understeer altogether. 👍 Awesome stuff, but i would still work on settings once i'm back in the tuning area. :guilty:


Cornering Prowess: 17

As fun as the Red Devil was to drive, during an actual race if i were to push it, problems would arise...mostly it's a bit too fishtaily, too unsure. I couldn't push this car to its absolute max. I'm being contradictory, of course, because the very traits i LOVE abuut the Red Devil are the very traits that hurt it a tad.


Power to Capability: 12

Again, the things i love about this car are the things that hurt the above score. With just over 300 horsepower, generally the Red Devil stays within its reins with few issues. But i have to be honest. :guilty: Which means a couple points get docked because there were those times when the rear-end would lose it all to hoards of wheelspin....and not all of them happened when i was trying to get my half-baked drifts. :guilty:

...it's a Z car. I know. Z cars are supposed to get crazy with wheelspin occasionally. But...you get the point. :guilty:

Perceieved Changes: 7

There's 2 directions i would love to go with this car:

1>. Make it "sporty" again. Get rid of all the super-parts, and work with simpler parts. This is a tuner's contest, tho...so i guess i gotta live with super-parts. :guilty:

2>. As a racing car (with super-parts) i would mess with ground clearance, dampers, and limited-slip to try and dial out more understeer..if possible. I'd also make the brakes stronger.

...i also have a personal issue with putting a 6-speed in an older car :guilty: I had no problems with the gearing per se, i could use all 6 gears (even 1st for an engine-brake in the tight chicane) but i personally would have dialed this car so that it's a 5-speed, making 6th irrelevant. This is an unpopular opinion of course. What can i say..i'm Parnelli Bones. :lol:

Total: 78
 
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Nuro's 300ZX 2-seater

Man there's alot of Zs in this contest. I almost feel like i gotta take a nap. :lol: Get it? Zzzzs....nap...sleeping :dunce: never mind.

Comfort Level: 18

Altough i had some issues with this car, i mostly felt comfortable driving it. AFter studying the settings, i thought some surprises might be in store, the way they were with McSqueegy's Z, but there were no big ones. A couple things interfered with my getting acquainted with this Z....understeer, and the fact that the gearing is set very tall. It seems as though these gears are set for the Test Course, perhaps...or the moon is more like it. Certainly not a slow-fast course like Grand Valley.


Cornering 'tude: 14

There's good things and not-so-good things here. First the good stuff. :D

Like several others i've driven, this is a very safe car. Considering the power being used, it didn't as feel as over-tuned as some others. In other words, the power in this car actually demands use of some super-parts. I could throttle-steer this car at times somewhat predictably, and even managed to break the rear-tire's usually strong traction. Though these moments were fun, they weren't "drifty"-fun as in the Red Devil '78 Z-car i drove the other day. Perhaps this car (the '98 2-seater) can be drifted by a pro, but not by an amateur like me. This car is more of an out-in-out gripper type. The brakes are set very strong in Nuro's Z-car, which (considering the power being used) seemed completely necessary.

Now the not-so-good stuff. :guilty: Despite the strong brakes (or perhaps because of them) i couldn't trail-brake this car much into corners. Most of the braking in this Z needs to be done in a straight line, or understeer takes over fast as i entered corners. Though the braking doesn't need to be super-early (again, the strong settings help), and i felt confident under braking, i couldn't perform any corner-trickery during braking.

Understeer also shows up mid & late corner, too--probably due to those strong LSD settings and toe. This mostly happened in non-hairpin areas like those long, flat curves in both tunnels, but i noticed it in other turns, too. I would let off the gas, hoping lift-off oversteer would show up. Sometimes it would, and sometimes it wouldn't. When it did, it was always too mild, sometimes forcing a brake-tap. I could (sometimes) hit the gas at the right moment, melting that understeer into throttle-oversteer, but this was also unreliable.

Over bumps, the car would sometimes get squirrely all the sudden (despite the tall gears and strong accel LSD setting), forcing me to cut back on the gas. And again, this is a Z-car,....Z-cars get squirrely at times, but (with over 450 horsepower) this is also a full-fledged racing car in some respects, and therefore not as near-stock as other Zs in this competition.

So overall, i had plenty of issues. Numbness. Understeer. But also some good stuff to work with.

Cornering Prowess: 18

Could i reliably push this car? After awhile, certainly. But for all the reasons listed above in the Cornering Attitude section, my hands would be full of issues to watch for. But i could certainly work with this car as-is if i were to race it.

Power to Capability: 12

Despite the full stage 2 turbo power system, most of the time this car's capability doesn't feel overwhelmed...

....with one big exception: first gear. In at least 3 spots at Grand Valley, i had to make an awkward decsion between down-shifting into first or staying in 2nd. As Nuro said in his description, this car is touchy in first gear, but fine afterwards, and he's right. My only other issue is this Z actually feels underwhelmed at times, mostly as i was exiting a tight corner in 2nd.

Perceived Changes: 5

The understeer and gearing were my two biggest concerns. We have a front wing that's set lower than the rear, which promotes high-speed understeer (again, this is fine at a longer Test Course type track, but not good for fast/slow Grand Valley). Understeer shows up in other spots again and again. It's not the most understeery car in the universe, but something i would work on. It's not so much the understeer that bothered me...it's the fact that to get rid of it usually caused a small mid-corner crisis.

And again, there's lots and lots of toe. I'll never understand tuner's fascination with it...perhaps there's something i'm missing. As soon as i removed it, the car felt so much more flexible! Not as numb.

Other changes: i shortened the gears, but made 1st taller. I also softened the limited-slip as well, which removed about half the understeer, and also helped the car's amazing brakes to be used into corners as well as during straights. After all this, the Z 2-seater didn't feel as "safe" as Nuro's version, but it felt more flexible. A bit more edgy, too.

Total: 67

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next defendant: Shoman's '05 Mustang GT

Comfort Level: 22

Well, in so many words, i've been asking for an under-tuned car. Looks like i finally got one. :D

What's ironic about Shoman's 'Stang is that in some ways, this car is similar to something i would race, especially so far as the simple parts choices are concerned. He's got a 1-way diff and a semi-racing suspension. That's what i would use with this level of power in the NA Tune races or something. In other ways, this 'STang is different than something i would drive.

So mostly, i didn't have any issues so far as this car is concerned. I felt comfortable with it. It's not too far off from a stock Mustang. Tuning is light, and any issues i had with this car (so far as me feeling comfortable driving it) were mostly minor ones.


Cornering 'tude: 15

As i was saying...this car isn't too far away from stock...not like others in this competition. Some of you may think this is a bad thing perhaps, but i don't see the point in over-tuning a car when all it's got is an oil change, racing exhuast, and chip so far as extra power goes. But in a way, this also makes it harder for me to judge this car. :indiff:

After driving Shoman's Stang for a few laps, I decided to remove the semi-racing suspension, just so i could i see if there were any differences...it's been awhile since i drove a New Mustang, so i needed a yardstick of comparison from stock to tuned. Anyways, i was trying to see if there were any differences, and there were some.

The 'Stang became clumsier, more difficult to orient and point, and understeered a bit more when stock. As tuned by Shoman, some of these negatives remain, but they are muted. The 'stang feels a bit "cleaned up" by Shoman. A bit easier to drive than a stock '05 Mustang GT, while still retaining plenty of the 'stang's color and personality. 👍 It's not numb, not sanitized, and still very much a 'stang.

I noticed Shoman didn't include any brake parts or settings for this car, which made me think i would have to judge this negatively somehow, but i was pleasantly surprised to find this car's brakes are incredibly strong, even when stock. I could brake really late in this car. Matter of fact, if i braked too early, the ghost (from a previous Best Lap) would wind up getting an edge on me!

Some negatives? The front end felt too grabby, especially under braking, but there were also some times mid-corner during which i'd need to be extremely careful with steering input, lest the front-end grabs too hard and i wind up on the inside of a turn or a wall. There was some late-corner understeer, too, but not hoards of it. I could avoid this better than i could avoid the grabbing, matter of fact. Also, the rear would get "pony car-ish"....very wild....hard to control at times. Only marginally different than a stock GT. This was sort of fun, but not as fun as the Red Devil. I applaud Shoman for not getting rid of this pony-car behavior altogether, but at the same time, if this were an actual race involving more power, i would be forced to tune this away.

I could throttle-steer the 'STang if i were careful (i've had lots of practice with 1-way diffs after all), and there is a huge variety of cornering behavior in this car, both negative and positive, but there were no additional surprises.

Tho i'm having some fun with this one, and i give Shoman an "A" for not over-tuning the GT, i have to award a "C" for lack of effort. In other words, the power is near-stock, and the actual suspension settings aren't much different from default semi-racing parts. It's as tho he simply bought a suspension, changed its settings just a tad, and there you go. I would like to see what Shoman can do if this car had some REAL power...like 500 hp, for instance.

Cornering Prowess: 14

There is some tweaking in order in order to get this car to its absolute best it can be. As it is, Shoman's Stang is a car i would like to race, but (let's be honest) its pony-carishness and grabby front-end would get in the way absolute cornering domination when pushing for the max. This car works with you to a point (with these settings) but then its prowess backfires if you make small, simple mistakes. I could drive & race it, but at the same time i'd be gritting my teeth at certain areas of Grand Valley, hoping this car doesn't get one iota outside of the racing-line it demands.

Power to Capability: 13

Not a whole lot of additional powr in this car...only 2nd gear really comes into play here....all other gears higher than 2nd i have no issue with.

You gotta baby the throttle in this car, or its engine-torque creates massive wheelspin in 2nd gear out of hairpin & chicane areas. But once you're out of 2nd, everything is fine. I personally wouldn't try to tune this away unless i had to, because i LIKE having the choice to create wheelspin at times, but this still hurts the above score.


Perceived Changes: 4

While this car has parts i would use, I would definately try and play with that semi-racing suspension more...try to eliminate some of that corner grabbing. Perhaps additional camber up front is the answer. I would also mess with the ground clearance for the same reason, but this depends on whatever track i'm at.

I don't understand why there's a wing on this car, other than the fact that it looks really cool :lol: If we had 500 horses to work with, sure, slap a wing on...but with just 344, it seems unnecessary. AFter removing the wing, i could equal or better my lap times because there's small amounts additional speed to be had in the straight sections.

Gearing? I had minor issues with it. I would prefer these gears a bit taller cuz i like dipping down into that small-block V8 torque every now and then. Also, I couldn't use first as an engine-brake, but otherwise the car's gears are balanced and fit perfectly at Grand Valley. Matter of fact, the gearbox seems like the only part of this Mustang that's been drastically changed!

I removed the racing flywheel, too. This didn't hurt my lap times at all, matter of fact, there was now a tad less wheelspin to deal with out of 2nd gear.

Total: 68
 
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I've been waiting and waiting for either the Ford Cobra R or Corvette Grand Sport to show up in the used car lots. Be patient.

I can't open that damn zip file for the GT4 used car lot...can anyone tell me if the Grand Sport shows up as a used car? Or do i gotta win it?
 
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Instead of using GVS (which seemed to be a pretty popular choice), I used the Fuji 90's circuit. This way, the cars are tested on more than just the same track over and over. Now, on to the judging.

First up: VTiRoj's Supra

Comfort: 23
Was easy enough to drive fast, but it had a bit of understeer on exit. Nothing bad, but it did take a couple laps to learn how to combat it.

Cornering Attitude: 20
As I've said, it's hard to screw up in this one. Brake at the right time, turn in at the right time, and you'll blast through. Nothing fancy.

Cornering Prowess: 23
Stuck like glue pretty much, but I tried to late-brake (as is my driving style) a couple times. Result: epic understeer. Again, easy enough to make a couple minor changes to my driving style. Out of the slow corners, too, wheelspin would occasionally make an occurence, even in 2nd. I didn't dock points for this, as I was really trying to make the car do so. That, and, well, it's a Supra. Nice to see that not all of its old personality has been tuned away.

Power-to Capability: 14
It probably could have easily handled another 50-60 horsepower, but that's not to say it's no slouch, either. 350 seems very decent, and it doesn't overpower the car.

Percived Possible Improvement: 8
My biggest beef with the car was exposed here: wayyyyy too tall gearing. I had another thousand RPM's to go in 5th at the end of the front straight, and 6th was never needed. Why not go ahead and make use of it? I was already hitting 170 MPH, and I'm pretty sure I could get a few more if I tried to tune it.

Total
: 88
A very solid overall car, with a few minor quirks. Nothing, however, that would ever keep this thing out of my garage. Very good tune by Roj. 👍



Next up: mcsqueegy's 350Z

Comfort: 18
Didn't feel bad, except for one thing. While in a turn, pushing the throttle would make the car go wider, while letting off brought it back in towards the inside. With that, I never really felt totally at home.

Cornering Attitude: 24
Very neutral handler overall; I could even trail-brake with it some. That, though, could have been helped by the gearbox-more on that later. Although it made the car less comfortable to drive, I liked how the car would "swivel" with the throttle, too. It's nice to be able to control both ends of the car.

Cornering Prowess: 22
If it was on a course with all slower corners, this thing would just chew them up and spit them out. Gears, again, get in the way of the higher speed corners. :banghead:

Power to Capability: 15
Not overpowering, not anemic. Just right.

Perceived Changes: 2
Here's the part that I couldn't STAND at all: the gearbox. Topped out at 120 mph. It literally drove me nuts, and it hurt the other scores in that I couldn't test it in any corners that I KNOW it could do faster than that in. Please, for the love of everything holy, fix it.

Total: 81
Not a bad car, by any stretch of the imagination. It just needs a few changes to be a great car. This is fine, however, and it'd have a spot in my garage any day.



Next car under the microscope: NURO's 300ZX

Comfort: 10
It's a very consistent car; it consistently understeers. It took a good few changes to my driving style before I was able to get it to handle acceptably.

Cornering Attitude: 13
Needs some fixing; mostly the inevitable understeer if you even think about pushing hard. I felt like I needed to brake too early and go too slowly through the corners. Oh, by the way, don't try accelerating while on the rumble strips. Bad things happen. It usually involves quickly facing the way you came.

Cornering Prowess: 17
This isn't to say, however, that it was slow. If you got it perfect, the car was fairly quick. But the range of good handling was so small that it... Actually, it was just small.

Power to Capability: 10
For the handling potential, it seemed that the amount of power was all that saved it from complete doom. Not bad, though; he did keep the power to a somewhat reasonable level. Wheelspin (except in 1st) wasn't bad, and the acceleration was pretty decent.

Perceived Improvement: 7
Gears were a bit too long; I redlined in 5th at the end of the main straight. Good gearing for Test Course, but not much else. Also, I'd tone down the Accel on the LSD; I think that's where the understeer is coming from.

Total: 57
It needs some general, all-around work. It has potential, but potential isn't going to get you very far. If I was forced to drive it, I'd do it without complaining. Outside of that, I think I'd pass.
 
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I've been waiting and waiting for either the Ford Cobra R or Corvette Grand Sport to show up in the used car lots. Be patient.

I can't open that damn zip file for the GT4 used car lot...can anyone tell me if the Grand Sport shows up as a used car? Or do i gotta win it?

Used car lot late '90s for the Grand Sport and Mustang. They're not über rare but I suppose they're not really common either.
 
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