No Response from Polyphony over Penalty System

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rekkon1420
New topic about an old subject, but first a message to mods. I understand that this topic has been posted before time and again but there was only 1, thats right 1 thread, that actually listed out in a clear manner some the issues with GT5 penalty system. I was seeking to clarify the issues at hand so Polyphony might listen. Also, the search engine for this site is not the best at displaying threads with the word 'penalty' or 'penalty system'. I don't have time to read every post that mentions the words penalty or penalty system. Finally, my thread was locked even before I could further explain exactly why I started a new thread about the subject. So here is another new thread about the penalty system except it touches a different matter.

Why does Polyphony not respond to us like other developers about subjects such as the penalty system and problems other than vague answers? Blizzard, specifically World of Warcraft, have a number of people respond called Blues constantly browse the forums trying to understand their users and how to make their game better. I've looked around the forums and found very little of this from Polyphony.

It's great they are making a game so detailed to be almost photorealistic and matching every detail of the their real world counter parts but I feel they have lost touch with their user base. Most people are satisfied with a response of like something like "We know the system is broken and that there are many flaws in it. Here are some possible ways we are thinking about fixing it....." or "We know the system is flawed but when we implement the new damage system a new penalty system will be present". A statement like that would effectively squash any moaning other than losing a race cause of the penalty system. Cause hey why waste time trying to fix a system that won't be needed on the final launch. This shroud of secrecy/snobbery is getting old. We know you have put much work into it, etc. but you can only use the line "You’re waiting for something that’s worth waiting for.” so many times Mr. Yamauchi.
 
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This shroud of secrecy/snobbery is getting old.

If I was at PD and was reading comments like this I wouldnt want to post here either.

People here build up their own expectations then scream and shout at PD when their expectations are not met.

I can just see the PD crew now as they all huddle around the 42" plasma in the boardroom with GTPlanet forums up:
"Kaz, this PolyphonyDigital bashing is getting old"
 
If I was at PD and was reading comments like this I wouldnt want to post here either.

People here build up their own expectations then scream and shout at PD when their expectations are not met.

I can just see the PD crew now as they all huddle around the 42" plasma in the boardroom with GTPlanet forums up:
"Kaz, this PolyphonyDigital bashing is getting old"

Okay, so I might have been a little harsh on PD but in fairness when Mr. Yamauchi make statements like "You’re waiting for something that’s worth waiting for.” then hype the game up through interviews, gameplay footage, FAQs, special racing competitions, etc. People will develop this expectation in their heads of what the game should be and if it doesn't live up to those expectations people will be upset. Also, they don't have to read every post on every forum. The idea is to read between the lines and see that the user's are unhappy with the current system and we need to fix it. Then issuing a brief statement of "We understand you are unhappy and we are currently working to balance the penalty system" (or whatever other issues may arise). This would solve some moaning but silence does no good. Just keeps the user's wondering what is going on.

Furthermore, I'm not asking for a personal letter or response to MY posts but anyone's posting on the penalty system. I cannot find any information that they are trying to fix/looking into the problems. I'm sure they are but user input (both actual game play and user's verbal feedback) in beta's will almost always improve the game which is why we have GT5: Prologue. However, if the developer ceases communication with said user's the experience becomes lopsided and loses the original intentions. Hopefully PD is working on a new penalty system while monitoring online usage about how user's are actually playing their game.

In closing I love GT series, bought a PS3 for this game alone. However, when user's don't hear anything from the developer about a serious game mechanic that hasn't been fixed in a long time coupled with the previous quote in this post from Mr. Yamauchi it makes user's wonder whats going on but not in a good way.

A good case scenario is since PD designed GT5 from the ground up the question becomes "Is the online penalty system incompatible with game engine/physics engine and is PD is having issues implementing the necessary balancing controls into said engine(s) without adding more issues into the game?" Situations happen where there isn't an ideal solution to the problem.
 
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PD/Sony has done hardly any hyping up of GT5. PD/Sony are hardly talking about it at all yet and when they do I assume the penalty system will not be on their list of top agendas.
 
Jay
PD/Sony has done hardly any hyping up of GT5. PD/Sony are hardly talking about it at all yet and when they do I assume the penalty system will not be on their list of top agendas.

You're kidding right now about PD/Sony not hyping GT5? GT5:Prologue counts still by the way. Have you looked on the news page of this website? That is still hyping up the game. It shows game play footage, interviews, etc. That is hyping up a game just because you don't see advertisements on TV/magazines/other mainstream outlets doesn't mean PD/Sony still don't hype the game. PD/Sony don't necessarily have to be the instigators either. Word of mouth still hypes up the game because it gives the person you are telling/showing a idea of how the game should rank since you probably value the opinion of the person.

GT Academy Winner Races in Germany
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-winner-races-in-germany/

Look! Look! Our game took someone who never had hardly any real race car driving experience and by playing our game he is able to compete in professional racing. If that's not hype I don't know what is.

Edit:
Also, the penalty system won't be the hyped part of the game, except for in-game damage, but this doesn't mean it doesn't mean anyless. For online play, the penalty system is an essential part of the game mechanics.
 
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They are marketting the Gran Turismo brand, not GT5 in paticular (except the trailer) and not mentioning features or any details at all (which is what you want). Sony/PD do this all the time even after GT4 was released and even after GT5 will be released.
 
GT Academy Winner Races in Germany
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-winner-races-in-germany/

Look! Look! Our game took someone who never had hardly any real race car driving experience and by playing our game he is able to compete in professional racing. If that's not hype I don't know what is.

Edit:
Also, the penalty system won't be the hyped part of the game, except for in-game damage, but this doesn't mean it doesn't mean anyless. For online play, the penalty system is an essential part of the game mechanics.

That's not hype that's "Virtual to Reality" no hype there.

As for the penalty system, there are too many variables to actually teach a computer to judge a racing incident even real live race stewards have a hard time with it. So it's no surprise they haven't gotten it right which I'm sure they are constantly working on as we speak. I'm sure they are aware of the flaws in GT5p but we have to wait and see what kind of improvements they have done when the full game comes out.
 
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That's not hype that's "Virtual to Reality" no hype there.

Well, I meant more the GT Academy for GT5 than the actual race. The GT5 Nissan Z cars are covered in Sony/PD stickers. Besides how many of us here thought that it was awesome when GT5 actually brought a virtual racer to real racer? I know sim's are not unheard of to train people but still its GT that was used. Although I can tell you Sony/PD didn't do it just because they felt like it. Advertising and hyping the game were the goals.
 
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Well, I meant more the GT Academy for GT5 than the actual race. The GT5 Nissan Z cars are covered in Sony/PD stickers. Besides how many of us here thought that it was awesome when GT5 actually brought a virtual racer to real racer? I know sim's are not unheard of to train people but still its GT that was used. Although I can tell you Sony/PD didn't do it just because they felt like it. Advertising and hyping the game were the goals.

It's all part of KAZ dream, to use his game to develope an actaul SIM driver to a real race car driver. It's not hype it's something that he has in mind and wants it to become a reality for any kid that aspires to be a real race car driver but does not have the deep pockets to go racing for real. He is giving us a once in a life time chance to make our dreams come true if we have what it takes. That's what makes GT even more of the evnvy of other racing game developers and I'm sure we will start seeing Forza and other companies do the same thing.
 
It's all part of KAZ dream, to use his game to develope an actaul SIM driver to a real race car driver. It's not hype it's something that he has in mind and wants it to become a reality for any kid that aspires to be a real race car driver but does not have the deep pockets to go racing for real. He is giving us a once in a life time chance to make our dreams come true if we have what it takes. That's what makes GT even more of the evnvy of other racing game developers and I'm sure we will start seeing Forza and other companies do the same thing.

That's fine but becoming a pro racer because of a video game are even slimmer than becoming a pro athlete in basketball, baseball, etc. Seat time is a major component of becoming a pro driver. Sim racing will not make you a pro driver alone. If I recall he had to prove himself in many other real world aspects (endurance, attitude, competence, emotional balance, etc) of racing as well to get to that position.

Hype
1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion
2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material
3. An advertising or promotional ploy

This is off subject though. The topic is not about hype. I only mentioned that in response to a previous comment. I don't see why people seem to think that asking for a 10 second status report of the penalty system is like asking Mr. Yamauchi for a personal hour interview with him over the subject.
 
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Unless some genius of an interviewer actually asks him that question, I doubt you'll get a response.

Send PD a letter in Japanese.

Here's the crux of your problem. Complaining that PD doesn't respond to English questions posted on English forums... even considering said English forum is the largest english fansite for your game on the net is like complaining that the developers of Forza aren't responding to the questions you've posted on a popular Korean videogame board.
 
Unless some genius of an interviewer actually asks him that question, I doubt you'll get a response.

Here's the crux of your problem. Complaining that PD doesn't respond to English questions posted on English forums... even considering said English forum is the largest english fansite for your game on the net is like complaining that the developers of Forza aren't responding to the questions you've posted on a popular Korean videogame board.


Well, I had already stated that I was looking for anyone's post earlier....

.....
Furthermore, I'm not asking for a personal letter or response to MY posts but anyone's posting on the penalty system.....

I would be amazed if no one in Japan has never complained on GT's official forums about the penalty system. On top of that, GT does have an American presence and we are a substantial buyer of the GT series. I cannot believe people here do not think PD should read forums and listen to it's users American, Japanese, or otherwise. Most of us are upset about the penalty system and agree it should be fixed. However, if PD never talks to anyone or reads any user feedback then how do they even know what needs to be improved? In-house feedback, especially the online portion, can only produce so much data to find/improve the game. Game generated data isn't all that is needed either. The people testing it (us/in-house) still have to give verbal feedback about the game to let developers further tweak and improve the game. Verbal feedback is essential to furthering the quality of the game.

Edit: After thought

PD also doesn't have to respond to a post on a forum either. I think that was a miscommunication on my part too. I'm upset because the penalty system has been broken for so long and PD has not acknowledge the problem in anyway. Forums are usually a good indicator if your user base is happy with your product and the changes that are being implemented or possibly implemented in the game.
 
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In all honesty I can understand where you are coming from.
Bottom line though is that you will never please everyone, and as mentioned above the penalty formula is so incredibly convoluted that it will never be perfect, or will it ever meet everyones expectations. IRL (which is what the sim is trying to replicate) there is no real penalty system.. racing is racing and if someone brakes too late into a corner and shunts you.. tough. Thats racing and you deal with it... Introducing a penalty system to try and attribute blame IMO is a compromise. Even this very principle itself is flawed because people will cheat and cut corners unless they are penalised.
So what do you do ?
We know what the penalties are and we race clean and unfortunately accept other people will cheat.

So how does PD respond to complaints ? Maybe they are not fixing it because in all honesty it cannot be "fixed".. no matter what they do there will still be people who complain. So if they dont believe it needs fixing (and I agree) why should they post anything?

There are so many different facets to this game and everyone here has their own view on whats important to them, and reading through the wishlists everyone has their own agenda as to what has to be fixed. Im sure PD has their own agenda and i think they a) probably have a pretty good idea about what they do b) have shown already they are willing to listen to the customers and make changes where needed. Just cause they dont send out bulletins doesnt mean they dont listen.



If everyone had their way this game would be a mess.
 
If damage is implemented on all cars, who needs a penalty system... Damage will BE the penalty system....
 
Why does Polyphony not respond to us like other developers about subjects such as the penalty system and problems other than vague answers?
While it is likely Polyphony do indeed browse the forums looking for feedback, two things stand out:
1) If they devoted enough time to reading all the threads here, there would be no time left to make the game.
2) It is likely they only come here late in the developmental phase or after the release to gauge reactions to trailers and to the game itself.
 
In all honesty I can understand where you are coming from.
Bottom line though is that you will never please everyone, and as mentioned above the penalty formula is so incredibly convoluted that it will never be perfect, or will it ever meet everyones expectations. IRL (which is what the sim is trying to replicate) there is no real penalty system.. racing is racing and if someone brakes too late into a corner and shunts you.. tough. Thats racing and you deal with it... Introducing a penalty system to try and attribute blame IMO is a compromise. Even this very principle itself is flawed because people will cheat and cut corners unless they are penalised.
So what do you do ?
We know what the penalties are and we race clean and unfortunately accept other people will cheat.

So how does PD respond to complaints ? Maybe they are not fixing it because in all honesty it cannot be "fixed".. no matter what they do there will still be people who complain. So if they dont believe it needs fixing (and I agree) why should they post anything?

There are so many different facets to this game and everyone here has their own view on whats important to them, and reading through the wishlists everyone has their own agenda as to what has to be fixed. Im sure PD has their own agenda and i think they a) probably have a pretty good idea about what they do b) have shown already they are willing to listen to the customers and make changes where needed. Just cause they dont send out bulletins doesnt mean they dont listen.



If everyone had their way this game would be a mess.
4 things.
1: What? if professional racers drove the way people do in GT, they'd be banned from their prospective leagues.
2: Ever heard of black flags? stop and go's?
3: Racing leagues round the world don't have complete amatures, and beginners accidentally crashing out people that have a real chance to win. Sometimes noobs IRL do crash into seasoned vets, but it's not like some guy just bought a racecar and said, "oh this looks like fun" and was allowed to race with them, they did pass "X" criteria.
4: Real Racers don't intentionally crash other cars out so their friend can win (not in an obvious manner anyways:scared:)

He has a point, it does seem like PD/Sony could learn things from these and other forums, but at the same time, I think they do. But when you're bitching about the time it takes to make a new game, and in the same breath complaining they aren't fixing everything the way everyone likes it, you're being ridiculous.
Programming takes time, as does excellence. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Personally I think that if they would just give GT5P private room, it would resolve a lot of the issue stated above.
 
It's all part of KAZ dream, to use his game to develope an actaul SIM driver to a real race car driver. It's not hype it's something that he has in mind and wants it to become a reality for any kid that aspires to be a real race car driver but does not have the deep pockets to go racing for real. He is giving us a once in a life time chance to make our dreams come true if we have what it takes. That's what makes GT even more of the evnvy of other racing game developers and I'm sure we will start seeing Forza and other companies do the same thing.
This already exists. It's called iRacing.com. Just wanted to point out that someone has already beaten Polyphony to it in terms of making the most accurate sim racer out there. The guys from iRacing also do respond to their user base and respond to comments since they have their own discussion board if you go to the game's website.

On the other hand, if you go to Polyphony/Gran Turismo official website, I don't see any sign of any official discussion board.
 
I would be amazed if no one in Japan has never complained on GT's official forums about the penalty system.
If you want an answer to that I suggest you learn Japanse and go and find the official PD forums for GT5, if there are any. If there are then I'd bet that question has been raised and maybe commented on, that doesn't mean it's getting picked up by the gaming media.Turn 10 (Forza devs) have official Forums, being an American developer thier forums are in English meaning I can join in and I have seen Turn 10 employee's responding to members on thier official forums. They don't however respond to unoffical forums let alone unofficial forums in Japanese. Likewise I wouldn't expect PD to respond to us here, if they do or don't have official forums and respond in them or not, I don't know, I couldn't know without someone else telling me since I don't speak or read Japanese.
 
The penalty system is one of the most ****ed things in gt5.. You can even get punished with 5sec for beeing "pushed" out on the grass like 2cm out of the road... But crossing the grass on susuka online YES WE CAN !
 
If damage is implemented on all cars, who needs a penalty system... Damage will BE the penalty system....

I have already addressed this issue in my first post, See Below...


.....Most people are satisfied with a response of like something like "We know the system is broken and that there are many flaws in it. Here are some possible ways we are thinking about fixing it....." or "We know the system is flawed but when we implement the new damage system a new penalty system will be present". A statement like that would effectively squash any moaning other than losing a race cause of the penalty system. Cause hey why waste time trying to fix a system that won't be needed on the final launch.....


While it is likely Polyphony do indeed browse the forums looking for feedback, two things stand out:
1) If they devoted enough time to reading all the threads here, there would be no time left to make the game.
2) It is likely they only come here late in the developmental phase or after the release to gauge reactions to trailers and to the game itself.

Again I have already addressed this. I'm not asking them to read all the forums but seeing how many threads alone get posted on this subject would be a good indicator that hey maybe something is broken.

For your second statement, that makes no sense. Why would you care after you release the game what people think? You have already missed the chance to fix the user complaints with your game. Some flaws in a game design could render the game unplayable or with frustrating game play. They have the opportunity right now using Prologue to collect both in-game data and user feedback to make the full GT5 game amazing.

4 things.
1: What? if professional racers drove the way people do in GT, they'd be banned from their prospective leagues.
2: Ever heard of black flags? stop and go's?
3: Racing leagues round the world don't have complete amatures, and beginners accidentally crashing out people that have a real chance to win. Sometimes noobs IRL do crash into seasoned vets, but it's not like some guy just bought a racecar and said, "oh this looks like fun" and was allowed to race with them, they did pass "X" criteria.
4: Real Racers don't intentionally crash other cars out so their friend can win (not in an obvious manner anyways:scared:)

He has a point, it does seem like PD/Sony could learn things from these and other forums, but at the same time, I think they do. But when you're bitching about the time it takes to make a new game, and in the same breath complaining they aren't fixing everything the way everyone likes it, you're being ridiculous.
Programming takes time, as does excellence. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I know it takes time to fix these issues. I'm upset because it's been unchanged for so long with no response from PD over the subject. The penalty system hopefully will be modified so as to allow in-game damage to be added to the penalty system.

If you want an answer to that I suggest you learn Japanse and go and find the official PD forums for GT5, if there are any. If there are then I'd bet that question has been raised and maybe commented on, that doesn't mean it's getting picked up by the gaming media.Turn 10 (Forza devs) have official Forums, being an American developer thier forums are in English meaning I can join in and I have seen Turn 10 employee's responding to members on thier official forums. They don't however respond to unoffical forums let alone unofficial forums in Japanese. Likewise I wouldn't expect PD to respond to us here, if they do or don't have official forums and respond in them or not, I don't know, I couldn't know without someone else telling me since I don't speak or read Japanese.

First I have already addressed this earlier in the thread.

Secondly, the telling me to learn Japanese is getting old. English speaking people buy a significant amount of the GT titles. Gaming media would eat that up if PD issued a statement in Japanese about the penalty system. You don't think GT has a hardcore following in Japan and that they don't read this forum as well?

It would be foolish business wise to ignore such a large audience. Yes, we speak English but does that make our feedback any less valuable? The idea about verbal feedback is to allow the game designers to improve the overall quality of the game. Not everyone will get their way though.
 
Again I have already addressed this. I'm not asking them to read all the forums but seeing how many threads alone get posted on this subject would be a good indicator that hey maybe something is broken.
I've seen like two. And I'm pretty sure they'd ignore any direct attempts to contact them through the forums.

For your second statement, that makes no sense. Why would you care after you release the game what people think? You have already missed the chance to fix the user complaints with your game. Some flaws in a game design could render the game unplayable or with frustrating game play. They have the opportunity right now using Prologue to collect both in-game data and user feedback to make the full GT5 game amazing.
Why would they care after the game's release? Simple: because they can't go looking for opinions on screenshots and trailers. They're not substantial enough to give feedback. People can hardly complain about flaws and bugs ina game they haven't played. If PD have gathered any data about Prologue, it's likely they did so in the months following its release. By now, they've probably moved on with that. And like I said, they probably ignore your attempts to contact them directly.

Actually, I think there should be a rule against making threads addressed to Kaz and/or PD. I believe the forums are unofficial, and they are certainly not PD's main proving ground for gaining feedback. Attempting to contact them is pointless, especially if the forums have no affiliation.
 
I've seen like two. And I'm pretty sure they'd ignore any direct attempts to contact them through the forums.

Why would they care after the game's release? Simple: because they can't go looking for opinions on screenshots and trailers. They're not substantial enough to give feedback. People can hardly complain about flaws and bugs ina game they haven't played. If PD have gathered any data about Prologue, it's likely they did so in the months following its release. By now, they've probably moved on with that. And like I said, they probably ignore your attempts to contact them directly.

Actually, I think there should be a rule against making threads addressed to Kaz and/or PD. I believe the forums are unofficial, and they are certainly not PD's main proving ground for gaining feedback. Attempting to contact them is pointless, especially if the forums have no affiliation.


Opinions on screenshots and trailers? People are playing GT5: Prologue as we speak. The whole point of releasing a partial GT5 was to gather data and feedback from users. That is real world data about the game that is valuable to PD to improve the game.

Man, again I have already posted about this topic in the thread already. Data about a game that receives new users each day will always generate more valuable data. Yes, the data probably isn't as useful as it first was on launch but the more data you possess the better decisions one can infer to improving the overall quality of the game.

Are you aware that many other game developer's rely on user feedback to improve the games? Blizzard, iRacing, Forza, etc. are always reading the official forums. This thread was about the lack of response anywhere (forums, interviews, PR, etc) about the penalty system. Blizzard has 10+ people, including Lead Designers, post on the official Blizzard forums to help understand and keep the user base informed about decisions about the game.

....In-house feedback, especially the online portion, can only produce so much data to find/improve the game. Game generated data isn't all that is needed either. The people testing it (us/in-house) still have to give verbal feedback about the game to let developers further tweak and improve the game. Verbal feedback is essential to furthering the quality of the game.

Edit: After thought

PD also doesn't have to respond to a post on a forum either. I think that was a miscommunication on my part too. I'm upset because the penalty system has been broken for so long and PD has not acknowledge the problem in anyway. Forums are usually a good indicator if your user base is happy with your product and the changes that are being implemented or possibly implemented in the game.


Furthermore, I address Mr. Yamauchi/PD as a formality. Who else are you going to direct your complaints to that would be able to do something about the game design? I DON"T EXPECT A PERSONAL RESPONSE TO MY POSTS. I do expect some form of communication from PD to show that they actually care about what the users think and to realize that a good number of people are unhappy with the current design of the game.
 
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4 things.
1: What? if professional racers drove the way people do in GT, they'd be banned from their prospective leagues.

^^ This sums up the whole problem perfectly.. It would be a reasonably safe bet that the "problem" drivers in GT5P are not professional racers and simply dont have the skill or ability to race at speed in a game.

Fix that and the Penalties become less of an issue. . You also mentioned stop-gos and black flags.. of course I have heard of these, but to receive such a penalty requires a clear breach of rule or conduct, which I totally agree with and is something that could be implimented as opposed to time penalties (except where there is no Pitlane)
However it is a bit of overkill for those racing incidents that resembles contact in and V8 Super car race...a nudge into or through a corner etc
If you havent seen one of these races (todays Clipsal was a good example) its well worth watching. Contact resulting in cars spun, put into walls or put out of race rarely results in Black flag or Stop go.... it may get reviewed by the stewards at some stage, but most of it simply racing incidents that has to go as unpenalised contact.
 
^^ This sums up the whole problem perfectly.. It would be a reasonably safe bet that the "problem" drivers in GT5P are not professional racers and simply dont have the skill or ability to race at speed in a game.

Fix that and the Penalties become less of an issue. . You also mentioned stop-gos and black flags.. of course I have heard of these, but to receive such a penalty requires a clear breach of rule or conduct, which I totally agree with and is something that could be implimented as opposed to time penalties (except where there is no Pitlane)
However it is a bit of overkill for those racing incidents that resembles contact in and V8 Super car race...a nudge into or through a corner etc
If you havent seen one of these races (todays Clipsal was a good example) its well worth watching. Contact resulting in cars spun, put into walls or put out of race rarely results in Black flag or Stop go.... it may get reviewed by the stewards at some stage, but most of it simply racing incidents that has to go as unpenalised contact.

I like Nascar 09's way of doing it. IPL system. or Incidents per lap.

It basicaly counts how maney wall touches rubs, crashes, shunts, spins. and gives you a score. And the game will only match players with a score like yours.

So all the idiots that cut corners ram into the back of people, will all be put togeather, wile the clean drivers will also be put togeather.

I think this is one of the best systems around and I cant belive it was EA that came up with it. Of course it does have some problems but even in real life penalty systems have issues. But like I said BEST in a BAD world.
 
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